HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[plexus_brachialis]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Nek_Food said:

This is one great comment. Forget for a while the Hema's mutagen cost and see the big picture behind what just happened with Hema's research cost.

We all are making threads and comments about the Hema cost in our inventory's mutagen numbers, at the same time DE manages to pass for the SAME weapon an new standard of Neurodes cost that no one is talking about, because we all looking at the tree (mutagens) and we loose sight of the forest burning (rest consumed materials). Hema's research costs 50 Neurodes for the Ghost clans and that is unacceptable too, but no one has noticed or make it a big deal about it as we have been drowned by the mutagens cost upon us. Until Hema, all weapon's, warframe's etc reasearch cost 1 to a rare max of 2 rare resource and suddenly came Hema to boost that number to 50!!!

Is 50 Neurodes / 50 Neural Sensors / 50 Orokin cells the new cost for future research? Is this right and fair?

but you can get your cells and neurodes while grinding for samples you know :^)

it's true the cost doesn't look big compared to sample requirement, even tho it's also pretty rare resource. i think the difference is in the fact that you can get them from more than ONE source. you don't have to sit in ONE place with META squad + all imaginable boosters (suprised they didn't come up with 'reduce common drops chance' type of booster yet). plus most veterans have bigger stockpiles than 50. i know i have some 600 neurodes, while using them pretty much constantly for potatoes and forma. still, if they do continue with higher and higher requirements it's not gonna be pretty.

[(PSN)Nek_Food]

Yes we veterans have plenty of almost any resource but what about the new players?

And the thing is that a rare resource need in research, went up 25x to 50x (2500~5000%). You find that as a normal thing to happen in the game?

To tell the truth, I don't want to farm any resources in the game, I just want to play and have a good time while in the meantime resources are dropping as usual for normal needs in foundry and research. I don't want one day to have to farm for cryotics, the next day for mutagens, the third day for telluriums and then again for I don't know what new resource I might need, lets say 5K mutagens just for fun. There is already enough farming for anything else...

[(PSN)Silverback73]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)Nek_Food said:

Yes we veterans have plenty of almost any resource but what about the new players?

And the thing is that a rare resource need in research, went up 25x to 50x (2500~5000%). You find that as a normal thing to happen in the game?

To tell the truth, I don't want to farm any resources in the game, I just want to play and have a good time while in the meantime resources are dropping as usual for normal needs in foundry and research. I don't want one day to have to farm for cryotics, the next day for mutagens, the third day for telluriums and then again for I don't know what new resource I might need, lets say 5K mutagens just for fun. There is already enough farming for anything else...

Boosters.  PAs.

Edited February 20, 2017 by (PS4)Silverback73

[plexus_brachialis]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Nek_Food said:

but what about the new players?

don't you know that new players are not supposed to be able to get anything. apparently it's a problem that a player can solo fund their clan with average 70 hours of playtime. we must punish them. no getting things for you, now hand over cash. 

 

1 hour ago, (PS4)Nek_Food said:

To tell the truth, I don't want to farm any resources in the game, I just want to play and have a good time while in the meantime resources are dropping as usual for normal needs in foundry and resear

yea, that's what i thought as well, what with de frowning upon meta squads and loot caves and making changes to prevent that behavior. i guess we were wrong to play casually. 

[notlamprey]

On 2/18/2017 at 9:33 PM, ensignvidiot said:

The following link is to the Warframe subreddit where a player details the process of starting a brand new "satelliteclan" for the express purposes of having research completly finished.

I've recommended before that people begin exploring exactly this option.

If DE want to turn clantech item costs into a struggle between dev and player, taking advantage of the current clan system may be our best option for standing in solidarity against shortsighted decisions like Hema.

My current worry comes from some of the comments made in Devstream #88 regarding plans to add a "mastery level" to clans. This concept of clan mastery level might be leveraged against us as a means of preventing the satellite clan tactic that we can currently use to get around extreme costs.

We won't know until it's implemented, but we're getting dangerously close to an environment of open antagonism (re: item costs) between devs and players. I just can't imagine how Warframe could continue to be an enjoyable (or successful) game if we hit that point.

[Buff00n]

1 hour ago, notlamprey said:

My current worry comes from some of the comments made in Devstream #88 regarding plans to add a "mastery level" to clans. This concept of clan mastery level might be leveraged against us as a means of preventing the satellite clan tactic that we can currently use to get around extreme costs.

That's an interesting thought.  

They didn't mention "clan MR" affecting what research you can start.  Such a thing would probably be a far more of a deal breaker than the Hema ever was.

According to the dev stream, this "clan MR" is going to affect what kind of enemy cells you can face in the upcoming "kingpin" system and, presumably, what kind of rewards you can get from it.  We don't know the nature of those rewards; it probably hasn't even been decided yet.  A reasonable bet would be cosmetics, clan cosmetics, or something that's still obtainable outside the kingpin system.  It's unlikely to be something that affects player MR but is exclusive to the "kingpin" system. 

That being said, I've begun expanding my Dojo to make sure that I have at least one of every room.

[DoomFruit]

Just a reminder here for the devs that the price still remains in "$&*&*#(%&" territory and that we're still pissed off about it.

[Loswaith]

On 2/20/2017 at 11:30 PM, (PS4)Nek_Food said:

Hema's research costs 50 Neurodes for the Ghost clans and that is unacceptable too, but no one has noticed or make it a big deal about it

This was mostly because individual veterans had vastly more than that amount already (while their entire clan couldn't fund the mutagen), and by the time we got the extra mutagen we recovered more Neurodes than we spent in the process.

The silly bit of it all was the whole relic system was built around getting players out of one tile-set (the void), but the hema just threw players back into the variant of that exact tile-set (broken void).

Edited February 23, 2017 by Loswaith

[Liminal]

I've tried to play again, obviously ignoring the Hema and all that stuff, but I can't really ignore it, it's a stain on WF to me and no amount of OxiClean™ Stain Remover can get rid of it. What I'm trying to say is this whole thing has really killed my motivation to play WF, not because of one weapon, but because of the way it was handled.

I'll just keep logging in and alt+F4ing every day I guess. Maybe pick up Maroo's ayatan missions once a week.

[Ditto132]

14 hours ago, Loswaith said:

On 20/02/2017 at 8:30 PM, (PS4)Nek_Food said:

Hema's research costs 50 Neurodes for the Ghost clans and that is unacceptable too, but no one has noticed or make it a big deal about it

This was mostly because individual veterans had vastly more than that amount already (while their entire clan couldn't fund the mutagen), and by the time we got the extra mutagen we recovered more Neurodes than we spent in the process.

The silly bit of it all was the whole relic system was built around getting players out of one tile-set (the void), but the hema just threw players back into the variant of that exact tile-set (broken void).

Research requirements
Synapse: 65 Mutagen Samples, 800 Circuits, 3,000 Nano Spores, 1,200 Polymer Bundle, 5,000 Credits
Hema: 5,000 Mutagen Samples, 10,000 Plastids, 45,000 Nano Spores, 50 Neurodes, 5,000 Credits
Shaku: 5,000 Plastids, 10 Neurodes, 11,000 Polymer Bundle, 17,500 Ferrite, 5,000 Credits

Hema research got an increase of

• ~76.9x Mutagen Samples (based on Synapse)
• 15x Nano Spores (based on Synapse)
• 5x Neurodes (based on Shaku)
• No change in Credits cost.

See how absurd the increased Mutagen Samples cost is relative to other research?

If the reason for increase cost is to promote Clan participation, then the increase should be ~10x for a Ghost Clan, making Neurodes and Nano Spores seems reasonable.
But why the Mutagen Samples cost is so high and no increase in Credits cost?
And if the reason is due to player's stockpile, then shouldn't Nano Spores be the higher increased cost instead? And why no change in Credits?

Not to mention the way this issue is being handled very poorly, and now outright ignoring that it existed.
Please fix this issue...

[Ditto132]

3 hours ago, The_Doc said:

I've tried to play again, obviously ignoring the Hema and all that stuff, but I can't really ignore it, it's a stain on WF to me and no amount of OxiClean™ Stain Remover can get rid of it. What I'm trying to say is this whole thing has really killed my motivation to play WF, not because of one weapon, but because of the way it was handled.

I'll just keep logging in and alt+F4ing every day I guess. Maybe pick up Maroo's ayatan missions once a week.

I starting to even find just logging in an unrewarding chore...
Primed Vigor, so what? New Primed mods, so what? New Zenistar style weapons, so what?
Would I even be using them after getting them? Would I even be playing the game at all by the time?

This is how I feel recently. :/

[Liminal]

3 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

I starting to even find just logging in an unrewarding chore...
Primed Vigor, so what? New Primed mods, so what? New Zenistar style weapons, so what?
Would I even be using them after getting them? Would I even be playing the game at all by the time?

This is how I feel recently. :/

[Rolunde]

Well unless or until DE ever does adjust the cost I'll probably just keep recommending this:

Clans offering temporary membership for Hema

And as always a big Thank You to the helpful and supportive part of the Community. ;-)

Cheers
~R~

[VentiGlondi]

One thing that might or might not have been brought up is, that if this was, let's say, 50000 detonite ampules, people would at least have a choice of either grinding their arses off, or slowly gathering the resource by doing sorties, invasions, alerts, whatever as long as it's on a grineer planet.

But because it's mutagen we're talking about here, it forces people to go out of their way to go to derelict specifically with only mutagen samples in mind.

[plexus_brachialis]

3 hours ago, VentiGlondi said:

One thing that might or might not have been brought up is, that if this was, let's say, 50000 detonite ampules, people would at least have a choice of either grinding their arses off, or slowly gathering the resource by doing sorties, invasions, alerts, whatever as long as it's on a grineer planet.

But because it's mutagen we're talking about here, it forces people to go out of their way to go to derelict specifically with only mutagen samples in mind.

it's been brought up, yes. DE doesn't want us to afk play only one node but for hema that's exactly what we need to do and suddenly they are fine with it. they gave us fissures because we were sick of void. they keep slamming hammer on loot caves. and yet we have no choice but derelict here at all. meta farming is now the way we are supposed to play the game, if it can be called play anymore

[Loswaith]

9 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

See how absurd the increased Mutagen Samples cost is relative to other research?

You only need to compare it to the entire collection of mutagen costs to really see how out of scope it is.

For a ghost clan research, and building all mutagen masses to make every bio weapons, it is only a bit over 1300 samples total that is required for everything else.

Edited February 24, 2017 by Loswaith

[Buff00n]

11 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

See how absurd the increased Mutagen Samples cost is relative to other research?

 

2 hours ago, Loswaith said:

You only need to compare it to the entire collection of mutagen costs to really see how out of scope it is.

I feel like, to really make your point properly, the only option is DELICIOUS PIE CHARTS.

Presented in order of how closely each chart resembles Pac Man:

1. Plastids:

Spoiler

2. Nano Spores:

Spoiler

3. Neurodes:

Spoiler

4. Mutagen Samples:

Spoiler

Numbers are for Ghost clans, relative area is the same for all tiers. 

[rudman88]

It has been 54 days sicne the 1st post in this forum.

you guys still around to reply, do chart and say your disatisfaction

while many tohers already begin constructing it LOL

[(PSN)HSomDevil]

1 hour ago, rudman88 said:

It has been 54 days sicne the 1st post in this forum.

you guys still around to reply, do chart and say your disatisfaction

while many tohers already begin constructing it LOL

54 days and yet somebody manages to completely miss the point.

LOL

[ChuckMaverick]

3 hours ago, rudman88 said:

It has been 54 days sicne the 1st post in this forum.

you guys still around to reply, do chart and say your disatisfaction

while many tohers already begin constructing it LOL

I farmed the mutagen samples (initial deposit of ~350, actively farmed the other ~4,650 by myself), started and finished the research, built the Hema and ranked it to 30 some time ago.

And I'm still here to say that the research costs are too high.

But then, if your sum contribution to the discussion is an extremely erudite "LOL" it's hardly surprising that you're completely missing the point.

[kaliazane]

21 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said:

I farmed the mutagen samples (initial deposit of ~350, actively farmed the other ~4,650 by myself), started and finished the research, built the Hema and ranked it to 30 some time ago.

And I'm still here to say that the research costs are too high.

 

But then, if your sum contribution to the discussion is an extremely erudite "LOL" it's hardly surprising that you're completely missing the point.

So did I and I'm still here to say it's NOT too high. Majority of pc players on this page alone don't have it, so to be fair it is quite funny that one can complain for 54 days straight while he still didn't bother farming it after all that time.

Discussion ended month ago, they don't consider it an issue anymore. Personally I think that nothing you or anyone here will say is going to change it, so this is just a place to vent at this point.

19 hours ago, Ditto132 said:

I starting to even find just logging in an unrewarding chore...
Primed Vigor, so what? New Primed mods, so what? New Zenistar style weapons, so what?
Would I even be using them after getting them? Would I even be playing the game at all by the time?

This is how I feel recently. :/

That's called being burned out, play something else dude.

[ChuckMaverick]

1 minute ago, ViS4GE said:

So did I and I'm still here to say it's NOT too high. Majority of pc players on this page alone don't have it, so to be fair it is quite funny that one can complain for 54 days straight while he still didn't bother farming it after all that time.

I understand you have a different opinion to me, and I can respect that.

I would guess that the vast majority of all players don't have the Hema yet, and if someone chooses not to pursue the Hema in its current state because of their objection to the costs that's a perfectly valid position and doesn't invalidate their criticism at all.

2 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Discussion ended month ago, they don't consider it an issue anymore. Personally I think that nothing you or anyone here will say is going to change it, so this is just a place to vent at this point.

Whether the costs for the Hema get adjusted or not in the short term, if 2017 is the year of #MakeClansGreatAgain then it doesn't hurt to remind DE that a sizeable portion of the playerbase is not happy with the approach they took with the Hema costs. Hopefully they'll make better decisions for other clan changes and possibly overhaul research in a way that addresses the issue in a more balanced way.

[EvilChaosKnight]

Well, my clan is getting there... eventually. Maybe by December we'll get there if we won't all just quit WF by then. And no, after all this time we haven't forgotten either. In fact, it's pretty hard to forget and forgive when the very first line you see in the clan log when you click on the Dojo is "HEMA research needs contributing".

What annoys me the most is the way DE handled this whole mess. It only shows how detached devs are from the realities of their very own game. "Raining mutagen in the Derelict", really? I understand that they can't sink thousands of hours into it (someone has to develop stuff after all) but a few hours a week maybe just to get the taste of things? It's not that much really.

[DoomFruit]

1 hour ago, ViS4GE said:

So did I and I'm still here to say it's NOT too high. Majority of pc players on this page alone don't have it, so to be fair it is quite funny that one can complain for 54 days straight while he still didn't bother farming it after all that time.

"didn't bother" != "refuse to". I'm not having anything to do with it while the price remains so ridiculously high. It's a matter of principle.

1 hour ago, ViS4GE said:

Discussion ended month ago, they don't consider it an issue anymore. Personally I think that nothing you or anyone here will say is going to change it, so this is just a place to vent at this point.

They don't consider it an issue, we do. Why should I simply drop it because they want to ignore it?

[(PSN)LeonidasxGGG]

My Clan is now saying that you will be BANNED if you don't contribute within 30 days... This is where we're at.

I did 20m Survival and 20 waves Defense in the Derelict with a booster and got close to 50 mutagen samples in each mission. By comparison, if I want Oxium and spend the same time in a high level Corpus mission I get about 200~300 or more... Without boosters.