John89brensen Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 9 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said: Gating content, grindwalls, and power creep are all innate parts of a F2P system like Warframe's. Hema would be the first time Warframe gates content behind a huge grindwall (a 1000% increase in research costs), up until now the grinwall was reasonable, and quite often was related to RNG, rather than picking up uncommon resources. As for powercreep, it is not an innate part of F2P games. Upgrading your gear once you reach a certain point in the game for more powerful gear is quite natural in games with RPG elements, but releasing content that constantly outclasses previous content (without a progression system) is powercreep. Dont mistake powercreep with progression, because they are not the same thing. If anything powercreep shows a lack of ability/interest to balance the game. Edited January 25, 2017 by John89brensen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckMaverick Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, John89brensen said: Hema would be the first time Warframe gates content behind a huge grindwall (a 1000% increase in research costs), up until now the grinwall was reasonable, and quite often was related to RNG, rather than picking up uncommon resources. You're understating the increase. It's a 1000% increase when compared to all previous Bio Lab research combined, individually it's more like a 10000% increase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John89brensen Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Just now, ChuckMaverick said: You're understating the increase. It's a 1000% increase when compared to all previous Bio Lab research combined, individually it's more like a 10000% increase. I was referring just to the cost of all Bio Lab projects. But yeah, individually compared to other Bio Lab weapons, the cost for the Hema is insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Silverback73 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 10 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said: Except the people who bought the Hema with plat are SOL because the purchase didn't complete the research for them. Ehhh, it's just like Ninkondi -->Shaku or Miter-->Panthera in my scenario: the weapon is complete either way for the upgraded weapon's blueprint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Silverback73 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 11 minutes ago, John89brensen said: Hema would be the first time Warframe gates content behind a huge grindwall (a 1000% increase in research costs), up until now the grinwall was reasonable, and quite often was related to RNG, rather than picking up uncommon resources. As for powercreep, it is not an innate part of F2P games. Upgrading your gear once you reach a certain point in the game for more powerful gear is quite natural in games with RPG elements, but releasing content that constantly outclasses previous content (without a progression system) is powercreep. Dont mistake powercreep with progression, because they are not the same thing. If anything powercreep shows a lack of ability/interest to balance the game. Semantics. Power creep and Progression go hand-in-hand as a game grows. Balance is another topic. Edited January 25, 2017 by (PS4)Silverback73 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KirukaChan Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 I wonder if DE even cares that 2017 is starting with a new Vivergate. This subject is going to continue to spread like wildfire as long as they keep insisting there's no problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckMaverick Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 minute ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said: Ehhh, it's just like Ninkondi -->Shaku or Miter-->Panthera in my scenario: the weapon is complete either way for the upgraded weapon's blueprint. Ah, I think I see what you mean, the upgraded weapon wouldn't be via clan research? I think all Infested weapons so far have been via the Bio Lab, so unless it came from a quest that would be a bit... odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John89brensen Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Just now, (PS4)Silverback73 said: Ehhh, it's just like Ninkondi -->Shaku or Miter-->Panthera in my scenario: the weapon is complete either way for the upgraded weapon's blueprint. Except Ninkondi can be bought from the market, Miter is farmed from VorKril, and Panthera is also bought from the market. Shaku is the only one that gets researched, and its more of a sidegrade than an upgrade to Ninkondi. Also buying your Hema with plat doesnt complete the research in the Biolab, so your clan is screwd out. 3 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said: Semantics. Power creep and Progression go hand-in-hand as a game grows. Balance is another topic. No, its not semantics. Take Borderlands as an example, imagine if the game gave you a level 72 assault rifle at the very begining of the game when you are level 1, it would trivialize all early/mid game content. But no, the game does not let you use certain gear until you progress through the game. Now im aware that Warframe is a F2P game, and if you buy things with plat is all fine and good, but you shouldnt be able to farm op weapons from very early on, otherwise why would you use all the other gear in the game. That is powercreep, and its clearly related to balance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Silverback73 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 (edited) 8 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said: Ah, I think I see what you mean, the upgraded weapon wouldn't be via clan research? I think all Infested weapons so far have been via the Bio Lab, so unless it came from a quest that would be a bit... odd. Maybe. Maybe not. But if so, the resource costs would be considerably less and blueprint costs as well with the caveat being a completed Hema would be part of the individual blueprint for the upgrade weapon. Completing clan research for the Hema would be independent of the requirements. A built Hema, however you get one, WOULD be required. Edited January 25, 2017 by (PS4)Silverback73 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liminal Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 minute ago, John89brensen said: Shaku is the only one that gets researched, and its more of a sidegrade than an upgrade to Ninkondi. I'd call it a downgrade :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John89brensen Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Just now, (PS4)Silverback73 said: Completing clan research for the Hema would be independent of the requirements. A built Hema, however you get one, would be. Lovely, that really helps the social aspects of clans "i have my Hema and the bp for the upgrade, you guys are SOL, better go farming" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Silverback73 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 7 minutes ago, John89brensen said: Except Ninkondi can be bought from the market, Miter is farmed from VorKril, and Panthera is also bought from the market. Shaku is the only one that gets researched, and its more of a sidegrade than an upgrade to Ninkondi. Also buying your Hema with plat doesnt complete the research in the Biolab, so your clan is screwd out. No, its not semantics. Take Borderlands as an example, imagine if the game gave you a level 72 assault rifle at the very begining of the game when you are level 1, it would trivialize all early/mid game content. But no, the game does not let you use certain gear until you progress through the game. Now im aware that Warframe is a F2P game, and if you buy things with plat is all fine and good, but you shouldnt be able to farm op weapons from very early on, otherwise why would you use all the other gear in the game. That is powercreep, and its clearly related to balance. What? You are spinning wildly off topic and reaching. MR lock the weapon to solve the issue just like DE does with Rivens and Simulor and everything else. Those mechanics are already in place and, again, a separate issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John89brensen Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Just now, (PS4)Silverback73 said: What? You are spinning wildly off topic and reaching. MR lock the weapon to solve the issue just like DE does with Rivens and Simulor and everything else. Those mechanics are already in place and, again, a separate issue. We are deviating too much of topic. But ill give a final answer to this. No, DE implements MR locks in the most random way possible, some items require high MR, and other require little or nothing for the amount of power they have, like a certain nikana.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Silverback73 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 6 minutes ago, John89brensen said: Lovely, that really helps the social aspects of clans "i have my Hema and the bp for the upgrade, you guys are SOL, better go farming" Yes, that is a consideration. Some clans downsized and some recruited to deal with the Hema. Some clans let members make the choice to buy/not buy the Hema. Others frowned upon it. DE has simply found the tolerance point that changed behaviors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John89brensen Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 minute ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said: Yes, that is a consideration. Some clans downsized and some recruited to deal with the Hema. Some clans let members make the choice to buy/not buy the Hema. Others frowned upon it. DE has simply found the tolerance point that changed behaviors. So you improve the social aspects of clans by having warlords fire their own people? Or having to pay a fee to join a clan? And what happens when a clan cannot downsize, when its just a bunch of frinds, or casual players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheChaotic1 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 The gun isn't even that good Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Silverback73 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 2 hours ago, John89brensen said: So you improve the social aspects of clans by having warlords fire their own people? Or having to pay a fee to join a clan? And what happens when a clan cannot downsize, when its just a bunch of frinds, or casual players? Well, "firing" smacks a bit of hyperbole and may happen in very rare cases, but yes, I'm sure Warlords removed a lot of dead, inactive weight if downsizing was a strategy. Charging/paying a fee is smart business for Warlords/outsiders if you get past the emotion. If you resent this strategy it will seem like an exploit. If it's just a bunch of friends, galvanize the clan and use S.M.A.R.T. goals if the research is important to you. Set a measurable timeline. Casual, consistent players (like myself) must make a choice. I contribute to the goal from time to time within my clan. Initially I was going to buy the Hema. My clan, last I checked was 125k away... I decided to set it as a stretch goal and not worry about it at all...It will probably take me 2 weeks to farm Nidus and build him, and our clan is looking at a casual but cooperative couple of months for Hema research. It's one weapon, and I think DE is exploring the "Sybear/Hema" strategy to see if it helps with revenues in the short and long term to cover costs and stay profitable. And that's it. If resentment bites into the Whale revenues and caused a dip, it will go away after Hema. If it is successful as a profit strategy, the trend will continue. Business 101. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChuckMaverick Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 minute ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said: If resentment bites into the Whale revenues and caused a dip, it will go away after Hema. If it is successful as a profit strategy, the trend will continue. Business 101. This is unlikely to have much impact on the whales at all, they were always going to buy the Hema with plat on day one. Where this may impact much more is the moderate spenders and 'free' players, and the effect of their dissatisfaction is much harder to see in the short term, but no less damaging over the long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John89brensen Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 minute ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said: Well, "firing" smacks a bit of hyperbole and may happen in very rare cases, but yes, I'm sure Warlords removed a lot of dead, inactive weight if downsizing was a strategy. Firing is hyperbole? How do you call it when you get kicked out of a clan? And no, not all Warlords removed clan members just for the sake of doing one s****y rifle. 2 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said: Charging/paying a fee is smart business for Warlords/outsiders if you get past the emotion. If you resent this strategy it will seem like an exploit. Are you really defending unscrupulous people that charge others just to be in a clan? What the hell happened to helping out others in this game, did it got monetized as well? 3 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said: Casual, consistent players (like myself) must make a choice. Pay, or get the weapon next year. Yeah, easy choice for me. 4 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said: It's one weapon, and I think DE is exploring the "Sybear/Hema" strategy to see if it helps with revenues in the short and long term to cover costs and stay profitable. And that's it. You cannot compare it with Sybear, since Sybear bp can be bought from the market, and its the problem of individual players to craft it. If the game required me to pay 5k ms to craft the Hema, i would be "ok" with it, I would have crafted the rifle in a year probably since i dont intend to go out of my way for one item. But no, Hema is part of research, so you are putting the pressure on all the clan, even those that dont play or cannot play that often. This without mentioning that DE might put Hema as a gate for future content, so now researching it becomes mandatory. They made a decision assuming clans have 100% active members, and are stubborn enough not to admit their mistake. And when they were about to change MS drops (a bandaid idea, and a bad one at that), they backed out, claiming that "it rains in derelict so go there". 8 minutes ago, ChuckMaverick said: This is unlikely to have much impact on the whales at all, they were always going to buy the Hema with plat on day one. Where this may impact much more is the moderate spenders and 'free' players, and the effect of their dissatisfaction is much harder to see in the short term, but no less damaging over the long term. This Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Silverback73 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 1 minute ago, ChuckMaverick said: This is unlikely to have much impact on the whales at all, they were always going to buy the Hema with plat on day one. Where this may impact much more is the moderate spenders and 'free' players, and the effect of their dissatisfaction is much harder to see in the short term, but no less damaging over the long term. If I had to classify, I'd say I'm a "Whale". Whale spending habits are probably more diverse than you think. Be careful not to stereotype them all as "instant gratification" types with loads of discretionary income to spend. I have plenty of Plat to spend that comes from Prime Accessories. As stated above, I did NOT rush out and buy the Nidus Bundle or Hema. A 75% off coupon might sway me on the Hema, but I've decided to wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyrian3k Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 3 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said: MR lock the weapon to solve the issue What would happen if DE did that? Even more people would be discouraged from farming resources because they don't have the MR anyways and everyone who can get it will receive another piece of useless mastery fodder that was gated behind a requirement that doesn't fit its actual performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ditto132 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Gating content, grindwalls, and power creep are all innate parts of a F2P system like Warframe's. Power creep is the natural progression for the Hema as a Gateway weapon. People aren't upset about the mechanics. For me personally, this whole process would make more sense if the Hema was the gateway to an upgraded weapon, whether I weather my clan's multi-month grind to research it or buy it with a login coupon. Power creep is the by-product of unbalanced gating content, grindwalls and level scaling. Talking about progression... Personally, it would make more sense if Vauban was the gateway to an upgraded Vauban Prime.https://forums.warframe.com/topic/708343-my-oldest-suggestion-making-base-frames-part-of-making-primes/#comment-7910806 4 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said: What? You are spinning wildly off topic and reaching. MR lock the weapon to solve the issue just like DE does with Rivens and Simulor and everything else. Those mechanics are already in place and, again, a separate issue. You can bypass MR lock with purchasing using plat. Don't even get started with Riven mods... It doesn't even really encouraging usage of weaker, least used weapons. If so, players would be buying Flux Rifle Riven mod instead of Soma, Simulor or Tonkor Riven mods... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helljack84 Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 5 hours ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said: MR lock the weapon to solve the issue just like DE does with Rivens and Simulor and everything else. Those mechanics are already in place and, again, a separate issue. Yeah, time-/rngwalls magically make issues disappear...oh wait they don't. Simulor still cancer, rivens getting worse with every update (but hey, you like cashgrab right?). And you say charging for clan membership is good? Yeah, everyone should run his clan like a business. No fun allowed in payframe, suck it up whales! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Silverback73 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Helljack84 said: Yeah, time-/rngwalls magically make issues disappear...oh wait they don't. Simulor still cancer, rivens getting worse with every update (but hey, you like cashgrab right?). And you say charging for clan membership is good? Yeah, everyone should run his clan like a business. No fun allowed in payframe, suck it up whales! Never did I say that. "Cancer"..."Cashgrab"...Do you think words like this along with putting words in my mouth helps the discussion? Ultimately, a Warlord and clan creator can run his clan as he/she sees fit. Create your own clan and run it how you want :). Your passion for the game is appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helljack84 Posted January 26, 2017 Share Posted January 26, 2017 1 hour ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said: Never did I say that. "Cancer"..."Cashgrab"...Do you think words like this along with putting words in my mouth helps the discussion? Ultimately, a Warlord and clan creator can run his clan as he/she sees fit. Create your own clan and run it how you want :). Your passion for the game is appreciated. Why do you imply I put words in your mouth? It's all there a page ago...and yes, at this point they're quite fit to describe the issues at hand :). Yes, they can. Also selling clanmembership is clever right? Buy boosters and cash in :). I do :). No, it really isn't. No thanks, no shinies, nothing :). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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