HEMA Final Word - No Mutagen Drop or Cost change

[kaliazane]

On 5.02.2017 at 10:24 PM, Flirk2 said:

This. Again. Same screen shot. Demonstrating clearly that you have 2 boosters on, 3 people do absolutely nothing but using Desecrate, Energy Vampire and Molecular Prime, and you spent a whole lot of time doing nothing but moving a little to avoid AFK timer and watching your tentacles.

Well done.

Such efficiency.

Much game play.

A lot better than WoF Ember.

I'm really done. If you can't calculate drop rate, can't understand what boosters are, and that not every one has them or wants them to be a must. Can't see that the next thing will take into account not my casual 3.3k mutagen samples, but your ''efficiently farmed'' stockpile... Good luck.

This one ?

I thought you were leaving.

Yes people tend to farm on correct node in a party and not solo in Akkad.

I gave you very clear math behind drop rates, we also wen't through people having and not having boosters and how would that look. People were doing their part in clans without boosters just fine, but if you expect farming clan goals solo without any effort  you are out of luck.

Edited February 7, 2017 by ViS4GE

[Flirk2]

Just now, ViS4GE said:

Yes people tend to farm on correct node in a party and not solo in Akkad.

I am leaving. I just became curious, how many times will you confirm, that your definition of good game play  and ''efficient farming'' is meditating on your tentacles for hours.

Thanks for confirming it 3 times, by the way.

But I'm way too casual to be meditating on my tentacles for that long.

[kaliazane]

3 minutes ago, plexus_brachialis said:

@ViS4GE, why do you play this game if grind is obviously not grindy enough for you, enemies are easy to slaughter and players are more casual than you want them to be? is this the right game for you?

I play it because I enjoy playing it and I could ask you same question and turn things you mentioned 180 °

enemies easy to slaughter - Endless missions are my favorite

not grindy enough - there is right amount of grind right now

[kaliazane]

3 minutes ago, Flirk2 said:

I am leaving. I just became curious, how many times will you confirm, that your definition of good game play  and ''efficient farming'' is meditating on your tentacles for hours.

Thanks for confirming it 3 times, by the way.

But I'm way too casual to be meditating on my tentacles for that long.

Hours ? I believe you meant for 1 hour.

Crazy grind I know.

But hey, I'm sure they will balance future clan goals around you sitting solo on wrong node. So clans can complete it after 15 sec.

Edited February 5, 2017 by ViS4GE

[plexus_brachialis]

Just now, ViS4GE said:

I play it because I enjoy playing it and I could ask you same question and turn things you mentioned 180 °

enemies easy to slaughter - Endless missions are my favorite

not grindy enough - there is right amount of grind right now

well, you did tell me first some pages ago that this game might not be right for me due to my complaining. so i ask because you are unhappy people are complaining. i mean, you keep coming back to this topic and bringing it to life. 

[kaliazane]

1 minute ago, plexus_brachialis said:

well, you did tell me first some pages ago that this game might not be right for me due to my complaining. so i ask because you are unhappy people are complaining. i mean, you keep coming back to this topic and bringing it to life. 

Well I guess I'm doing you a favor then, people in previous one seemed to think that amount of pages equals being right, but that didn't worked out.

What can I say, I enjoy helping fellow Tenno.

[plexus_brachialis]

3 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Well I guess I'm doing you a favor then, people in previous one seemed to think that amount of pages equals being right, but that didn't worked out.

What can I say, I enjoy helping fellow Tenno.

i'd thought you'd prefer to let it die since it's closed chapter for DE, but thank you for your kind services

[kaliazane]

Just now, plexus_brachialis said:

i'd thought you'd prefer to let it die since it's closed chapter for DE, but thank you for your kind services

It certainly is closed chapter for them cost wise, but it breaks my heart when I see some tenno still holding on to that idea.

What can I say, I'm a softie.

[Ditto132]

1 hour ago, plexus_brachialis said:

i remember when gate crash event introduced twist to sabotages and derelict ones were also made worthy to play!...wait, they weren't...'void is so crowded we have to vault things' but derelict had plenty empty spaces where they could put something. 

they had chances to put something there plenty times. they never cared to.

Hmm. That a very good way of diluting the drop tables, instead of vaulting them. They could also place some primes into spy vault too and replace those crappy rewards, after vaulting the primes.

1 hour ago, John89brensen said:

We have already covered how all clans are not 100% active, and how not all players play 4 hours a day, assuming that clans are 100% active is the same error DE made. Player efficiency, what does that even mean? Because if its a farming thing, then its releated to your point 3. Team set up has no strategy whatsoever, its just a meta squad, and it has already been mentioned how ironic it is that DE encourages meta squads, when they already made efforts to dismantle them. Location to gather samples, there are only 2, ODD and ODS, no other, DE has refused to increase MS drops on Eris, or like i have alredy said, make MS an infested faction drop, regardless of location. As for the time, i already told you that @ChuckMaverick iirc mentioned that the average player logs in for around an hour a day, and there is plenty of other things to grind for in Warframe, so i dont see whats wrong with players not wanting to camp one tyleset for one research project.

Then how is it that there are plenty of players on this thread that have completed the research for Hema, and still consider it unfair, and an absurd increase in research costs?

So, once again, you only blame the player, for what is essentially a developer decision, since it was them that made the 1000% increase in research costs. If it indeed came down to the individual player, Hema would be expensive to craft not to research. And im sorry to tell you, but the only way to farm MS and make it worth your time is by setting up a meta squad, you would be indeed neglecting the farm if you dont.

All in all, DE does not seem to understand that player time is a valuable thing, and that we could be doing other, more interesting things, than camping in ODD/S.

Hmm... raining Mutagen Samples in Derelict, which is an old tileset. Why not make it rain in Kuva Fortress?
Lore, you say? But... but... the Valkyr Prime...
Nevermind, here my suggestion, whenever the Kuva Fortress goes near the Derelict "planet", make it rain Mutagen Samples in the Kuva Fortress by infesting those grineers.
Like how those enemies are being turned into corrupted version in Fissure missions.

1 hour ago, ViS4GE said:

Yes really, "clan goals are such a terrible thing because I don't enjoy them, what about people who do ? I don't care about them they are elitists !"

"Rubbish" (I really hate to respond in the way you did, but oh well)

But you completely missed Ember point. It's bound to happen again if you keep doing that.

Ah so that was you. I actually remember both screens very clearly, you went above and beyond to farm in as inefficient way as possible and that was your best response to my screen demonstrating that Steve was clearly right when he said it's raining. I still can't believe you thought that you actually proved something that way. Btw. I've seen people farming without boosters aswell, even saying they did it solo in last thread. You just have to be willing to play the game.

Sorry, but you keep missing most of other player's points different from you.

Also, proving that the research cost can be acquired by near perfectly efficient method using meta squad, boosters, clan management and luck (praying to RNG) doesn't mean that it should be the norm. And even worse, to be encouraged.

[kaliazane]

11 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

Sorry, but you keep missing most of other player's points different from you.

Also, proving that the research cost can be acquired by near perfectly efficient method using meta squad, boosters, clan management and luck (praying to RNG) doesn't mean that it should be the norm. And even worse, to be encouraged.

Hardly.

You won't have clan goals if everything is balanced around solo player. Not everything needs to be for everyone. It's not norm, this is 1 weapon out of hundreds.

[Ditto132]

2 hours ago, ViS4GE said:

Nobody foces you to grind for it.

Yes, that's why warframe is doing great.

Maybe time will tell... Just like how Trump is making America great again...

1 hour ago, ViS4GE said:

I actually saw most of them in past, it was mostly what we can see in this thread every day.

Even the video that claimed that the research cost is insane and try not to offend DE and suggesting a solution to make up for the mistake?
Also, are you saying that those rather influential youtubers are just like us, the minority that are vocals?

[kaliazane]

15 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

Maybe time will tell... Just like how Trump is making America great again...

These 2 are so connected.

Quote

Even the video that claimed that the research cost is insane and try not to offend DE and suggesting a solution to make up for the mistake?
Also, are you saying that those rather influential youtubers are just like us, the minority that are vocals?

I've seen people here claiming the same while missing the point that it's clan goal. There is no difference between saying same thing here or in a Video. Just because someone is making youtube videos, it doesn't make his opinion any more valid than anyone else. I remember watching one of Brozime rants about rivens and after seeing half of it, which was something like 15min of my time wasted I got a vibe that hes basically upset because he got a bad riven. So please stop throwing videos at me and focus on this thread.

Edited February 5, 2017 by ViS4GE

[Ciaus]

Almost 2000 posts now, and repeated pressure in update threads. 
If DE addressed this, I could in good conscious start playing and supporting them again. Missing those login rewards is a feels bad. 

Also the fact that multiple Youtube partners have flat out called the cost unreasonable, it's a very disconnected thing of DE to do to handle the issue as they have been. The game got successful in a certain way under a certain approach to player criticism, changing that now is a very bad idea if playerbase retention is valued.

[k05h]

16 hours ago, Flirk2 said:

I'm really done. If you can't calculate drop rate, can't understand what boosters are, and that not every one has them or wants them to be a must. Can't see that the next thing will take into account not my casual 3.3k mutagen samples, but your ''efficiently farmed'' stockpile... Good luck.

I think that is a wise decision. That guy is really just trolling you and the rest of those that have issues with the mutangen sample cost of the Hema. He will just argue to the opposite for the sake of arguing. I work with those kind of people; they are helpful if you want to find arguments to sell products nobody wants. It is a unique skill and highly appreciated in business. But it is not helpful for a real discussion. 

Edited February 6, 2017 by k05h

[Liminal]

3 hours ago, Ciaus said:

If DE addressed this, I could in good conscious start playing and supporting them again. Missing those login rewards is a feels bad. 

Or just do what I do and log in every day and alt+F4 after getting the "reward" (I consider not getting it a punishment instead, but to each their own) :P

[KIREEK]

He isn't trolling, he is only telling you that the research is fair and you still have a wide margin incase something goes wrong like limited time, less player efficiency and so on.

There are players who ask what the hell is player efficiency when killing stuff or what is a team setup strategy, i'm not here to explain what is the difference between a 1 player survival and a 4 player survival, what a speed nova, an hidroid and a nekros do or can do.

If players are making poor clan decisions (such as staying in a dead clan), playing in a very inefficient way (aka not killing) and using team setups that have 4 players that can't kill, then it's very obvious you will face issues when gathering the samples.

Both me and visage already achieved a gameplay level where we don't particularly farm, we simply play, that gamepay may be fustrating for some but we know this and that's why we lower our expectations of players, we consider less kills, no particular meta team and higher requirements in the clan (1500 samples to compenssate for players that don't play) and we end up realizing that even if it takes a few days, a few days seems fair.

Fair to us that is, obviously we plan on playing the game for far longer periods of time, other players on the other hand think the world is going to end tomorrow, so they want things now, this instant gratification with no work at all seems a bit excessive.

Yes, we get it, your solo clan needs to have the research done 30 minutes after the update is released, me and visage simply agree with DE decision to bump it.

You guys want super lower efficiency, super low team strategy (like all CC because CC is fun, no kills), you guys want to play on mercury (no samples), and you guys want the research done.

I mean cmon, put some effort into it.

We can only show you the door, the possibility, but we can't play for you.

[ChuckMaverick]

18 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

Fair to us that is, obviously we plan on playing the game for far longer periods of time, other players on the other hand think the world is going to end tomorrow, so they want things now, this instant gratification with no work at all seems a bit excessive.

Yes, we get it, your solo clan needs to have the research done 30 minutes after the update is released, me and visage simply agree with DE decision to bump it.

You guys want super lower efficiency, super low team strategy (like all CC because CC is fun, no kills), you guys want to play on mercury (no samples), and you guys want the research done.

I mean cmon, put some effort into it.

All the exaggeration just makes you, and by association your argument, look ridiculous.

I may disagree with ViS4GE's position, but at least he keeps his statements reasonable, for the most part.

(Yes, I realise the exaggeration exists on both sides, but as there are basically only two of you arguing in support of the costs it has a disproportionate effect for you.)

[plexus_brachialis]

54 minutes ago, KIREEK said:

Both me and visage already achieved a gameplay level where we don't particularly farm, we simply play

i'm sorry, but i remember him saying he pretty much always plays in most efficient way that enables max loot, so how is that 'not particular farm, we simply play'

[Liminal]

1 hour ago, KIREEK said:

You guys want super lower efficiency, super low team strategy (like all CC because CC is fun, no kills), you guys want to play on mercury (no samples), and you guys want the research done.

Yes (no-kills-only-Mercury hyperbole aside), because DE said they wouldn't balance resource requirements around loot abilities. Is it so much to ask that they keep their word?

[Helljack84]

I'll just leave some random words:

Troll, trolling, anonymity, mentally ill, bullying victim, bored, empty shell of a person.

Thank you for reading completely random words that aren't related to anything.

[Flirk2]

1 hour ago, KIREEK said:

Both me and visage already achieved a gameplay level where we don't particularly farm, we simply play,

Ah. So that's what having boosters and playing only in a squad with Hydroid, Nekros, Nova and Trinity (and God forbid anyone in the team kills any enemies with anything but Tentacles) is called now?

I guess I could reach that awesome level too. I'll only need to spend about 2k hours more in the game.

I'm glad I won't live long enough.

1 hour ago, KIREEK said:

We can only show you the door

Yes. That seems to be the way. Show the door to all those casuals with 70 hours of total play time! Let them get out through that door to never come back.

 

You know what a discussion is? You state an argument. People who disagree give you a counter argument. Then you refute their counter argument if you can. And so on.

But instead you just ignored counter arguments that were given to you, to proceed with repeating the arguments that were already countered.

This is not a discussion I was looking for. If you continue ignoring counter arguments, I'll start to just put links to previous posts instead of countering your points again and again.

[(PSN)Silverback73]

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

All the exaggeration just makes you, and by association your argument, look ridiculous.

I may disagree with ViS4GE's position, but at least he keeps his statements reasonable, for the most part.

(Yes, I realise the exaggeration exists on both sides, but as there are basically only two of you arguing in support of the costs it has a disproportionate effect for you.)

I'm not on anyone's side.

But "Disproportionate effect?"

They aren't the irrational, obstructionist minority.  To dismiss them as such is a disservice to the argument.

They make valid arguments and support them.  Counter them.

 

 

[ChuckMaverick]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

I'm not on anyone's side.

But "Disproportionate effect?"

When there are essentially two people arguing in support of the costs and one of them throws around hyperbole left and right, it has a much bigger detrimental effect on the credibility of the pro Hema cost side of the debate than one person among many on the anti Hema cost side would have.

Or do you disagree?

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

They aren't the irrational, obstructionist minority.  To dismiss them as such is a disservice to the argument.

They are the minority side of the debate in this thread, that much is self-evident, none of us have figures showing which side is the minority or majority in the wider playerbase.

There have been rational arguments put forward on both sides, and I don't see either position as obstructionist, so I'm not sure what you mean by that.

I also haven't dismissed anyone, in fact I'd suggest that encouraging a more factual, rather than hyperbolic, debate from the 'other side' is doing the exact opposite.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)Silverback73 said:

They make valid arguments and support them.  Counter them.

I have, multiple times, as have others. Have you been following this thread?

[John89brensen]

8 hours ago, KIREEK said:

Both me and visage already achieved a gameplay level where we don't particularly farm,

Please, you say this like you two are the only high MR players in this thread, or the only ones that played more than 300 hours of this game. Makes you sound like a little brat, bragging about knowing how to cut his own food.

 

8 hours ago, KIREEK said:

If players are making poor clan decisions (such as staying in a dead clan), playing in a very inefficient way (aka not killing) and using team setups that have 4 players that can't kill, then it's very obvious you will face issues when gathering the samples.

This would be the first time in Warframe, that clans need to be 100% active, to achieve the goals of 1 reseach project. Are you so blind to that? Before Hema, clans didnt need to be at 100% capacity and 100% activity to complete their research. And dont claim that DE made Hema to encourage clans to be more dedicated, because it sounds like the poorests excuse ever, especially considering the results.

 

8 hours ago, KIREEK said:

There are players who ask what the hell is player efficiency when killing stuff or what is a team setup strategy, i'm not here to explain what is the difference between a 1 player survival and a 4 player survival, what a speed nova, an hidroid and a nekros do or can do.

Player efficiency, why do you insist on that, are you referring to farming efficiency? If so, we all know how meta squads work here, we all know how boring camping missions is, and we all know how DE -ironically- is against meta farming.

 

8 hours ago, KIREEK said:

I mean cmon, put some effort into it.

I put almost 2 thousand hours of my life into this game, but i wont go out of my way to farm a meh riffle with a gimmick. Our time has value, but it seems like DE, and you, dont understand this. You are under the wrong impression that sitting in ODD/S is somehow an effort to play, when its not, its boring, and its time consuming.

Edited February 6, 2017 by John89brensen

[Ditto132]

7 hours ago, Ciaus said:

Almost 2000 posts now, and repeated pressure in update threads. 
If DE addressed this, I could in good conscious start playing and supporting them again. Missing those login rewards is a feels bad. 

Also the fact that multiple Youtube partners have flat out called the cost unreasonable, it's a very disconnected thing of DE to do to handle the issue as they have been. The game got successful in a certain way under a certain approach to player criticism, changing that now is a very bad idea if playerbase retention is valued.

People would say that you are not forced to get those login rewards. How I see it is that those rewards are not really worth the effort and sanity to login everyday.
Maybe because I know it is a method of player retention, just like checking email daily. Just login if you can, no need to feel bad if you missed a few.
I would need ~4 days to Primed Vigor, but not even sure if I would max it or use it as much.

3 hours ago, KIREEK said:

He isn't trolling, he is only telling you that the research is fair and you still have a wide margin incase something goes wrong like limited time, less player efficiency and so on.

There are players who ask what the hell is player efficiency when killing stuff or what is a team setup strategy, i'm not here to explain what is the difference between a 1 player survival and a 4 player survival, what a speed nova, an hidroid and a nekros do or can do.

If players are making poor clan decisions (such as staying in a dead clan), playing in a very inefficient way (aka not killing) and using team setups that have 4 players that can't kill, then it's very obvious you will face issues when gathering the samples.

Both me and visage already achieved a gameplay level where we don't particularly farm, we simply play, that gamepay may be fustrating for some but we know this and that's why we lower our expectations of players, we consider less kills, no particular meta team and higher requirements in the clan (1500 samples to compenssate for players that don't play) and we end up realizing that even if it takes a few days, a few days seems fair.

Fair to us that is, obviously we plan on playing the game for far longer periods of time, other players on the other hand think the world is going to end tomorrow, so they want things now, this instant gratification with no work at all seems a bit excessive.

Yes, we get it, your solo clan needs to have the research done 30 minutes after the update is released, me and visage simply agree with DE decision to bump it.

You guys want super lower efficiency, super low team strategy (like all CC because CC is fun, no kills), you guys want to play on mercury (no samples), and you guys want the research done.

I mean cmon, put some effort into it.

We can only show you the door, the possibility, but we can't play for you.

Personally, those arguments are not strong enough.

DE emphasised on variety of playstyle through frames, weapons and mods. Not focusing on efficient approach such as meta squad, to kill fast, spawn fast, acquire loot fast.
Before this particular update, I and most players here would agree that we could just play without too much emphasis on meta and optimal setup. Just jump into the game with reasonable loadout and enjoy the game. Those who wanted more challenges or maximising build can still do so.

Your instant gratification argument doesn't hold.
Claiming that most players wanted to reduce the cost because of "wanting instant gratification with no work at all" also seems excessive.
Players who wanted the Hema instantly, wouldn't be bother with waiting for 3 days.
I have seen players using new released research content such as Caustacyst, Pox during Day One in game, even though the research cost and crafting cost were "nothing" as someone stated.
In addition, some youtubers got to buy the new contents with plat, try it out asap and post review and builds videos.
Some players would went on and purchase with plat, to support the dev.
You might say that players could start researching it on Day One without any effort and just wait 3 days?
How about those effort and time spent in gathering those resources beforehand? Those aren't effort and valuable time spent? And implying that they are somewhat lazy?

As for DE, their decision and reasons is just not convincing enough for the players.
There are too many contradictions. And the way they handled this situation just seems lack-lustered and trivial, as compared to showcasing TennoGen and other less significant subjects.

Finally, saying that the players here aren't putting effort into it, just seems immature.
There are evidences that players have put effort into farming Mutagen Samples, those videos, screenshots and calculations.
A couple of clans even managed to complete the research and yet still claimed that the cost was way too unreasonable to the fact that it is punishing.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Ditto132
Typos