How the Grineer Helminth Charger makes sense lore wise.

[NeithanDiniem]

The point of this entire thread was not to say "The charger is how the pet should look," it was to state how by the lore of this game the charger appearance of the pet is possible. I have commented on how DESteve has stated they have plans in mind before in this thread. We know there are plans.

The mutalist strain overwrote the previous strain of infestation, hence why you find the mutalist enemies everywhere you find Infested. The Infestation adapted, found it could now incorporate robotic and AI into itself, and proceeded to do so rather than just dissolve those now-viable parts into inorganic matter. Its exactly like the Corrupted Ancient's Synth lore depicting the original creation of the Healer Ancients, arguably the original form of the Ancient.

Also considering how the void affected the Tenno being rather alien to the Infestation, its not hard to see why void powers and "soul receivers" would not contribute to the makeup of the pet. It cant get information about void powers since it cant infest Tenno, and the "Soul receiver" is just an Infested golem unable to be reincorporated into the hive from what we have observed. News on what made those golems able to receive our consciousness or what range of things we Tenno can project our consciousness to isn't known. Lastly I really dont think DE wants a pet with warframe-like powers.

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, Nariala said:

yes, the lore behind combining an infected cyst with a dog egg and getting a fully armored grineer corpse.

Some serious mental gymnastics to justify this. 

Doesn't take much at all if you understood what the Infestation is already capable of by the lore of the game.

[CandyDragon]

Just now, NeithanDiniem said:

Doesn't take much at all if you understood what the Infestation is already capable of by the lore of the game.

There would be no point to emulate a grineer corpse, the entire point of the infestation is that the mutation and consumption of flesh is going towards an ideal form. IE: juggernauts and Ancients.  This was a lazy model usage with no explanation and lore based reasoning beyond "we thought it would be neat".

 

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, Nariala said:

There would be no point to emulate a grineer corpse, the entire point of the infestation is that the mutation and consumption of flesh is going towards an ideal form. IE: juggernauts and Ancients.  This was a lazy model usage with no explanation and lore based reasoning beyond "we thought it would be neat".

 

I'm not going to go over the entirety of what this thread was made for again just to slate your curiosity and lack of reading whats been discussed. Read the post I made at the top of this very page. Bringing up topics already poured over several times now is nothing short of laziness on your own part.

[CandyDragon]

6 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Bringing up topics already poured over several times now is nothing short of laziness on your own part.

There is no curiosity here, only disdainful amusement at the effort people have gone through to justify this placeholder quality model. All over a disappointingly lore lacking Warframe and pet addition. 

Edited January 5, 2017 by Nariala
grammar.

[NeithanDiniem]

2 minutes ago, Nariala said:

There is no curiosity here, only disdainful amusement at the effort people have gone through to justify this placeholder quality model and lore lacking Warframe and pet addition. 

Oh then by all means, you are welcome to keep wasting your time just as much as you seem to believe we are.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

38 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

The point of this entire thread was not to say "The charger is how the pet should look," it was to state how by the lore of this game the charger appearance of the pet is possible. I have commented on how DESteve has stated they have plans in mind before in this thread. We know there are plans.

im not disagreeing that its possible, im stating that out of the pool of possibilities its the one thats not creative or cool or deepening the lore. Its the one option that pretty much negates the opportunity of something creative or cool or deepening to lore.

in other words, not that its not possible, but that its an extremely lame possibility

and people who are saying this to you are basically getting told to read the whole thread of mental gymnastics like it'll fix that possibility being lame.

additionally, I'm far more ok with a dev team saying the lore and mechanics dont currently match up cuz of limited resources or too many other focuses than limiting the potential of the lore by matching it to what they already admitted was poorly implemented and needs work

Edited January 5, 2017 by (XB1)ashes of suvius

[ObviousLee]

1 hour ago, Nariala said:

yes, the lore behind combining an infected cyst with a dog egg and getting a fully armored grineer corpse.

Some serious mental gymnastics to justify this. 

if you're going to be posting here, please use lore or any knowledge regarding bioengineering/genetics you may have to counter the points made in this thread, similar to how ahes is making their counterpoints.

Otherwise, your posts lose their value and become as worthless as the post i'm about to quote.

1 hour ago, Volinus7 said:

if you're going to continue posting in this thread in an attempt to counter whats being said by myself, use knowledge, not memes. Otherwise your posts will continue to degrade further than they already have, which equals out to about worthless. I'm interested in hearing counterpoints, not something that took no mental effort beyond a google search.

[Guest]

All I'll say is that the infested genetics for this charger came from helminth, who was designed to operate as a part of the tenno orbiter from the beginning and has been locked in a closet for millennia, since the fall of the empire.  Helminth is not the same strain as the rest of the infested in the system, nor has it had contact with any other infested for the exchange of information.  Helminth could not possibly have the information required to reconstruct a modern grineer lancer and his armor in the form of a charger.

[Angrados]

38 minutes ago, TheDefenestrater said:

All I'll say is that the infested genetics for this charger came from helminth, who was designed to operate as a part of the tenno orbiter from the beginning and has been locked in a closet for millennia, since the fall of the empire.  Helminth is not the same strain as the rest of the infested in the system, nor has it had contact with any other infested for the exchange of information.  Helminth could not possibly have the information required to reconstruct a modern grineer lancer and his armor in the form of a charger.

Ah, but you assume that Grineer armor tech has moved on since Helminth's split from the original strain. We do get hints that Grineer combat types do exist in one of the Synthesis entries (I forget which one, but it had Bilsa in it, that much I do remember). Theoretically if the armor hasn't changed in all that time the Helminth strain would still have the blueprint that the original Infestation had, which explains how Helminth knows how to construct the armor on the charger.

[NeithanDiniem]

42 minutes ago, TheDefenestrater said:

All I'll say is that the infested genetics for this charger came from helminth, who was designed to operate as a part of the tenno orbiter from the beginning and has been locked in a closet for millennia, since the fall of the empire.  Helminth is not the same strain as the rest of the infested in the system, nor has it had contact with any other infested for the exchange of information.  Helminth could not possibly have the information required to reconstruct a modern grineer lancer and his armor in the form of a charger.

Nothing in Warframe lore hints at even a ballpark time frame of how long it has been since the fall of the empire. Guessing at a thousand years is grasping at straws. If you have something you are using as a basis for that thousand years I'd love to hear it.

We have already gone over numerous ways how Helminth could have access to the data of a modern Infested Charger, to such an extent that the beaten dead horse is filing a lawsuit for assault. Please read up on the conversations that have gone on in this topic and then provide reasoning to your stance, otherwise you will just repeat what others have said and have already been answered to.

Edited January 6, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[Volinus7]

3 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

if you're going to be posting here, please use lore or any knowledge regarding bioengineering/genetics you may have to counter the points made in this thread, similar to how ahes is making their counterpoints.

Otherwise, your posts lose their value and become as worthless as the post i'm about to quote.

if you're going to continue posting in this thread in an attempt to counter whats being said by myself, use knowledge, not memes. Otherwise your posts will continue to degrade further than they already have, which equals out to about worthless. I'm interested in hearing counterpoints, not something that took no mental effort beyond a google search.

As someone who is studying master degree in biomedical engineering I would say that the whole infested thingy is bullsh*t if you applied real world knowledge to proof its existence. That's why deus ex machina called nanomachine is the answer to everything, you don't have to know how organisms work biologically or what is the definition of budding or virus because deus ex machina demands it in this fictional world.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Volinus7

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

31 minutes ago, Angrados said:

Ah, but you assume that Grineer armor tech has moved on since Helminth's split from the original strain. We do get hints that Grineer combat types do exist in one of the Synthesis entries (I forget which one, but it had Bilsa in it, that much I do remember). Theoretically if the armor hasn't changed in all that time the Helminth strain would still have the blueprint that the original Infestation had, which explains how Helminth knows how to construct the armor on the charger.

ah but us assuming the armor may have changed is no more or less true than u assuming it hasnt, u assuming helminth would use the same blueprint (even if he does have access to it) has no more truth behind it than us assuming it would not. The description of the infested that states inorganic material is transformed but keeps characteristics of its previous form, at least in my eyes is the exact opposite of your claim that it will create those characteristics from scratch material that doesn't have those characteristics. Your theory is only supported by the lack of modular design, which again is game mechanic, and other assumptions like that the ancient healers that all popped up in a day had the same identical previously inorganic parts meshed in, which is never stated or alluded to, just that they were mass produced n that she could feel her sister in them.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

55 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Nothing in Warframe lore hints at even a ballpark time frame of how long it has been since the fall of the empire. Guessing at a thousand years is grasping at straws. If you have something you are using as a basis for that thousand years I'd love to hear it.

We have already gone over numerous ways how Helminth could have access to the data of a modern Infested Charger, to such an extent that the beaten dead horse is filing a lawsuit for assault. Please read up on the conversations that have gone on in this topic and then provide reasoning to your stance, otherwise you will just repeat what others have said and have already been answered to.

and nothing in warframe lore hints that the "blueprints for mutation" are transmitted via the hivemind vs carried in the genetic matter like any other virus. At least his assumption is generally the same whether hes right and its been thousands, or its been 400 or whatever time frame u think has passed. Hes been isolated (generally, not specifically) as long as jordas or lephantis had to develop, and he is most likely a different strain to begin with. Meanwhile, the only time we've seen another strain separated from the hivemind, it produced new troops. Even If through a bunch of assumptions, you can justify the helminth charger, that don't make your assuming more right than anyone else's assuming, especially when there is literally nothing truely backing up your claims other than it being a convenient way to explain in game mechanics, not lore, and still requires you to believe an assumption, thus it becomes a stack of assumptions based on little to no lore. At least the way we see it isnt directly conflicting with the description of the infested itself. Ie: That inorganic matter retains characteristics. If it wasn't grineer armor when it was absorbed/mutated, it would not have those characteristics, it would have characteristics of what it just was.

Edited January 6, 2017 by (XB1)ashes of suvius

[NeithanDiniem]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

and nothing in warframe lore hints that the "blueprints for mutation" are transmitted via the hivemind vs carried in the genetic matter like any other virus. At least his assumption is generally the same whether hes right and its been thousands, or its been 400 or whatever time frame u think has passed. Hes been isolated (generally, not specifically) as long as jordas or or lephantis had to develop, and he is most likely a different strain to begin with. Even If through a bunch of assumptions, you can justify the helminth charger, that don't make your assuming more right than anyone else's assuming. When there is literally nothing truely backing up your claims other than it being a convenient way to explain in game mechanics, not lore, and still requires you to believe an assumption.

I used deduction to come to a logical conclusion based on what information we have and what we can experience in game several times now to you specifically. You however have provided nothing at all to support the alternative other than saying it was a game mechanic. So if you would have any way to explain it beyond that what we experience in game when there is nothing in lore that invalidates or contradicts it, I would love to hear it.

[(XBOX)ashes of suvius]

2 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

I used deduction to come to a logical conclusion based on what information we have and what we can experience in game several times now to you specifically. You however have provided nothing at all to support the alternative other than saying it was a game mechanic. So if you would have any way to explain it beyond that what we experience in game when there is nothing in lore that invalidates or contradicts it, I would love to hear it.

 

10 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

At least the way we see it isnt directly conflicting with the description of the infested itself. Ie: That inorganic matter retains characteristics. If it wasn't grineer armor when it was absorbed/mutated, it would not have those characteristics, it would have characteristics of what it just was.

did that already

[NeithanDiniem]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

 

did that already

Doesnt explain at all how an ancient would appear on a Grineer asteroid. Nor does it answer how multiple Ancient Healers were able to form based off of the infestation of a singular Lorist Orokin within the span of 24 hours. Your explanation doesn't answer the full problem at all.

Edited January 6, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[Angrados]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

ah but us assuming the armor may have changed is no more or less true than u assuming it hasnt, u assuming helminth would use the same blueprint (even if he does have access to it) has no more truth behind it than us assuming it would not. The description of the infested that states inorganic material is transformed but keeps characteristics of its previous form, at least in my eyes is the exact opposite of your claim that it will create those characteristics from scratch material that doesn't have those characteristics. Your theory is only supported by the lack of modular design, which again is game mechanic, and other assumptions like that the ancient healers that all popped up in a day had the same identical previously inorganic parts meshed in, which is never stated or alluded to, just that they were mass produced n that she could feel her sister in them.

Actually, if you look at my debate waaaaay back on page three about Lephantis, it was something that was raised as an issue regarding Lephantis and his knowing the designs to adapt his heads into. You raise questions we have, in fact, debated already, though with a slightly different spin. 

[Loswaith]

5 hours ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Doesn't take much at all if you understood what the Infestation is already capable of by the lore of the game.

Well for the infestation they can create any of billions of permutations, they have no real limits on what they can infest and mutate into (anymore, thanks to Alad) given time.

For the infestation to change the genetics of a kubrow into a grineer, is actually hugely inefficient on a genetic level to alter the very core of the genetic material used (the egg is a chunk of kubrow DNA, otherwise we could clone just about anything from them).  Thus the most likely thing would be for the Helminth pet to have been an infested kubrow not something vastly different like a charger (which is genetically closer to a grineer clone).

Boilers get the grineer/corpus variants due to that being the core genetic material they would be spitting up (presuming the boilers just aren't some kind of incubator spitting up half formed infested).

DE wanted it to be a charger (because players have asked for one), thus it is a charger.  Trying to rationalise it otherwise is moot.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Loswaith

[NeithanDiniem]

57 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ashes of suvius said:

and nothing in warframe lore hints that the "blueprints for mutation" are transmitted via the hivemind vs carried in the genetic matter like any other virus. At least his assumption is generally the same whether hes right and its been thousands, or its been 400 or whatever time frame u think has passed. Hes been isolated (generally, not specifically) as long as jordas or lephantis had to develop, and he is most likely a different strain to begin with. Meanwhile, the only time we've seen another strain separated from the hivemind, it produced new troops. Even If through a bunch of assumptions, you can justify the helminth charger, that don't make your assuming more right than anyone else's assuming, especially when there is literally nothing truely backing up your claims other than it being a convenient way to explain in game mechanics, not lore, and still requires you to believe an assumption, thus it becomes a stack of assumptions based on little to no lore. At least the way we see it isnt directly conflicting with the description of the infested itself. Ie: That inorganic matter retains characteristics. If it wasn't grineer armor when it was absorbed/mutated, it would not have those characteristics, it would have characteristics of what it just was.

The "new strain" that made new troops? It replaced the old strain, meaning it was not separated from the old strain, it overwrote it, meaning it was fully capable of making both the old and new units. Why did it make new units? Alad V forced the infestation to adapt by working with it and now it had the capability to do so. It had no method at all of ever doing that before. You have again not addressed the issue of How can units (Ancients) that have no capability of forming based on your explanation that information cannot be shared between locations spawn in places where the original bodies that were used to make them are not present.

Also again your very body right now has inorganic materials within it that are present because your genetic code calls for those materials to be used. It is basic understanding of biology that every cell in your body requires iron in it. Its what gives blood its color and the ability to carry oxygen, it is used in enzymes in most cells of your body. Iron is not the only mineral used by the body. Any creature with red blood or basic cellular structure has inorganic materials within their body specifically set there because the genetics of the body developed the means to incorporate those materials into the organisms biology. Your body has specific coding in it to give characteristics and specific use to inorganic material.

Lastly we are talking about an organism that uses nanotechnology as a fundamental aspect of itself. Nanotechnology would allow it to construct far more sophisticated and complex forms of both organic and inorganic material. It would be able to give more specific use to inorganic material in ways that an organism alone would be incapable of. This is not the first time I have brought that up.

[NeithanDiniem]

9 minutes ago, Loswaith said:

Well for the infestation they can create any of billions of permutations, they have no real limits on what they can infest and mutate into (anymore, thanks to Alad) given time.

For the infestation to change the genetics of a kubrow into a grineer, is actually hugely inefficient on a genetic level to alter the very core of the genetic material used (the egg is a chunk of kubrow DNA, otherwise we could clone just about anything from them).  Thus the most likely thing would be for the Helminth pet to have been an infested kubrow not something vastly different like a charger (which is genetically closer to a grineer clone).

DE wanted it to be a charger (because players have asked for one), thus it is a charger.  Trying to rationalise it otherwise is moot.

Again, we are talking about a viral/nanotech hybrid based organism that was designed by a race so adept at genetic manipulation that they rebuilt the entire genetic selection of creatures on their planet after they had eliminated all life on said planet and then created new ones to fit other planet's environments they terraformed from being inhospitable to life as a whole. I am pretty sure that efficiency can be thrown out the window as a limitation. Also do remember this is being incubated in a machine that by its very function in game is proficient at genetic manipulation and replacement.

Edited January 6, 2017 by NeithanDiniem

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

6 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Also again your very body right now has inorganic materials within it that are present because your genetic code calls for those materials to be used. It is basic understanding of biology that every cell in your body requires iron in it.

You have taken a chemistry class before, right? You're forgetting the thing called conservation of matter, you can't turn a carbon atom into a titanium atom through chemical means (nuclear sure, but that's impossible in this context).

[Loswaith]

10 minutes ago, NeithanDiniem said:

Again, we are talking about a viral/nanotech hybrid based organism that was designed by a race so adept at genetic manipulation that they rebuilt the entire genetic selection of creatures on their planet after they had eliminated all life on said planet and then created new ones to fit other planet's environments they terraformed. I am pretty sure that efficiency can be thrown out the window as a limitation.

Yet everything they changed still has some semblance to what was before, heavily implying some major limitations.  Just because they could alter and change some aspects, or even homogenise genetics, doesn't mean they could completely rewrite a basic genetic principle.

They also created a viral/nanotech hybrid they couldn't control, which doesn't sound like they had complete understanding of what they were actually doing.

Edited January 6, 2017 by Loswaith

[NeithanDiniem]

4 minutes ago, Delta-Epsilon_Limit said:

You have taken a chemistry class before, right? You're forgetting the thing called conservation of matter, you can't turn a carbon atom into a titanium atom through chemical means (nuclear sure, but that's impossible in this context).

Did I say that the Infestation was doing that? No. I have not once claimed that it was transmuting elements into other elements. Ferrite and Alloy Plates are both formed from basic materials present in almost every environment in Warframe. Basic metals and minerals. Nanomachines would be capable of using those minerals and metals to develop more complex structures from them.

[Delta-Epsilon_Limit]

Just now, NeithanDiniem said:

Did I say that the Infestation was doing that? No. I have not once claimed that it was transmuting elements into other elements. Ferrite and Alloy Plates are both formed from basic materials present in almost every environment in Warframe. Basic metals and minerals. Nanomachines would be capable of using those minerals and metals to develop more complex structures from them.

So you're saying the incubation machine is creating the chargers grineer armor and all?