Adjustments for Mag - Casting speed, Movement, Energy Economy

[PyroElleh]

First of all, I just want to put this right out in the open: I generally like Mag's rework.  I don't really want to go into why I like it in this topic, because I feel like that's a separate discussion.

However, I feel she still has some issues that make her seem unpolished and occasionally frustrating to play.  The following are suggestions to improve Mag's play-ability and address some lingering holes in her design.  I aim to make these suggestions very straightforward and well within existing Warframe systems.

The Problems:

Mag moves and casts too slowly.

• Enemies frequently die before she can finish her Magnetize casting animation.  This robs her of the energy used to cast with nothing to show for it.  It also makes using Magnetize in a strategic manner extremely frustrating.  (Ex: Want to put a bubble near a cryopod to protect it? Chances are high that your pet or teammates kill enemies repeatedly before you get the chance.)
• Mag can be easily killed in the duration it takes to cast Polarize.  Not only is the casting speed slow, it roots her in place.  For an ability that should help her stay alive (her shields are her best defense) the high cost and slow casting speed makes it impractical and often worse than simply attempting to run away.
  • For further complications, Mag's lower mobility makes running away more difficult in comparison to some.  She is treated like a tank in regards to speed, but the ability that would normally help her tank is also slow and unwieldy.

Mag has no practical way to manage energy.

• This is especially problematic because she relies on her powers to keep herself alive.
• The % chance to spawn an energy orb on kill with Pull is impractical.  Pull rarely kills later into the starchart, even with high power strength.  Spamming the ability to get a kill results in more energy wasted with little return.
• No existing mods give her a useful way to regain energy.  Rage is not useful with a character that has high shields.  Energy Siphon regen alone is far too slow to keep pace.
• Her energy pool is fairly low, so creating a deep reserve of energy to offset its scarcity is also impractical.

Further thoughts:

As stated before, Mag's stats make her seem as though she is being treated like a tank.  Due to the way shielding mechanics work in Warframe, shields are far less viable than armor and a high health pool. Until damage and shield mechanics are reworked (shield gating when?) she should not be treated as a tank, but more like a caster frame.

Possible Adjustments:

 Make Polarize a one-handed power for more mobility.

• Having the ability to continue moving while casting offsets the slower cast-speed.  It also requires the player to still use some consideration and tactics while casting. 

Refund energy if the Magnetize target dies while the ability is still being cast.

• This would reduce frustration and address some of Mag's energy management issues.
• Alternatively, make magnetize significantly faster to cast. (Or both. I wouldn't complain.)

OR allow Magnetize to be cast anywhere - in addition to directly on an enemy.

• This would make the issue of enemies dying during the cast moot.
• Using Magnetize in a strategic manner would be much more comfortable and open it up to far more creative uses.

Give Mag a higher base energy pool.

• Mag relies on casting powers in combos in order to make full use of her kit.  This is very similar to Saryn.  And so like Saryn, she should have a higher energy pool to offset higher-than-typical energy consumption.
• This would also somewhat alleviate Mag's difficulty with energy management.

Give Mag a (more useful) way to regain energy by using her powers.

Possibly:

• Refund a small amount of energy per target hit with Pull, rather than spawn energy orbs.  Hitting a single target would make the ability cheaper, and hitting a large crowd could refill a small portion of her energy pool.
•  Alternatively, make Pull spawn an energy orb on hit rather than on death. (Assuming a somewhat lower chance to compensate.)
• Leech a small amount of energy from enemies hit by Polarize.  (Magnetic barriers and magnetic attacks from enemies sap our energy, yes?  Allow Mag to siphon off some of this energy with her own magnetic attacks! See, it's even lore-friendly!)

Change Mag's passive ability to one that relates to Shields. (EDIT Actually... why not both? The bullet vacuum isn't exactly OP)

Give Mag a passive to improve the effectiveness of her shields.

The vacuum effect on her bullet jump is cute, but not very useful.  ESPECIALLY when one of her own augments already helps her pull in items.

I would suggest something like one of these:

• Built-in Fast Deflection
• Shields that begin to refill instantly, or nearly instantly, after they take damage.

Giving her more efficient shields would make her more durable, and in turn make her lower mobility make sense.

Closing Thoughts

I would not expect all these changes to be implemented together.  But the general idea still stands:  many of Mag's weaknesses are difficult to counter, or don't have any trade-offs like one would expect for a well-balance character.  Her reworked kit is a lot of fun and makes her more adaptable,  but can be troublesome to use in its current state.  I'm hoping with her upcoming Deluxe skin (it IS still coming, right?) we can see some final polish on her rework.

EDIT Removed the bit about Fracturing Crush.  I still don't think it works quite right, but I'm unsure of the best way to make it more useful.

EDIT 2 Changed some wording for clarity.

Edited January 6, 2017 by PyroElleh

[tsoa]

Mag defenitely needs some tweaks. But I don't understand your problem with Polarize. It can be cast midair and is relatively short in comparison to Crush, which has killed me several times due to enemies not being (immediately) affected by it. And how should a long casting speed help with Magnetize targets dying too quickly?

What I agree with:

• energy refund if Magnetize targets die or place the bubble regardless
• energy pool way too low

My own suggestions and opinions:

Pull:

• Pull while standing makes the enemies being pulled to your feet.
• Pull while airborne makes enemies fly like now (good to pull them off of cliffs).
• If a Magnetize bubble is in the direction of Pull then enemies behind it get pulled into it.

Magnetize:

• Consistency when it comes to used weapons. Some are good with Magnetize others are pretty useless. If weapons have a similar strength, then they should work similar with Magnetize.
• Being able to shoot enemies that stand before a Magnetize bubble. A problem for shotguns and maybe other weapons.

Polarize:

• Needs a buff against Corpus. Magnetic damage is their weakness but the Magnetic frame sucks against them and one reason is Polarize. One solution would be to permanently reduce enemy shields affected by Polarize.
• another method: base damage + percentage damage (to shields and armor)

Crush:

• All enemies in its range should immediately be affected. Had enemies right beside me when I cast it and they shot (at) me.
• Damage Reduction during its casting: Crush is supposed to magnetize bones and affect enemies that way. But why doesn't it have any effect on bullets (and maybe even beams)? She needs this especially against Corpus with their Ospreys and Nullifiers that are unaffected by Crush.

Augments:

• Greedy Pull: Nice Gimmick but not very useful in most cases and I never used it beyond my initial testing. Could be interesting for very low levels though, which is fine by me.
• Shield Transference: Needs a buff against Grineer and Infested (and maybe against Corrupted too). Overshields work but during testing I could never really get them up unless I spammed 3 and took cover permanently. Moreover it would not be unreasonable for ST to give overshields to allies too.
• Fracturing Crush: Very good against Grineer but I never understood why enemies are immediately on their feet again after Crush. Maybe 2 seconds downtime for normal Crush and extend that more for Fracturing Crush. Moreover it could use a buff against Corpus too.

Passive:

• I like her vacuum passive and it helps in high level content once my Sentinel is dead (or if I use a pet). But I do understand that people would like something which is more useful in more situations. I too am hoping for innate warframe vacuum but refrain from suggestions till we get it.

Weakness:

• Mag's biggest weakness are Infested (and also to a lesser extend Corrupted) due to their healers which makes her AOE powers less useful. Though I must say that I once had immense fun pulling Corrupted Ancients off of a bridge with Pull. But for me that's ok since there are other frames that are good against Infested. All frames have weaknesses, which is one reason for using different frames for different situations. :)

[PyroElleh]

4 minutes ago, tsoa said:

And how should a long casting speed help with Magnetize targets dying too quickly?

Sorry, poor wording.  I meant the speed should be increased, as in faster to cast - not increased duration of the casting animation.

10 minutes ago, tsoa said:

But I don't understand your problem with Polarize. It can be cast midair and is relatively short in comparison to Crush, which has killed me several times due to enemies not being (immediately) affected by it.

I don't think it should be necessary to fling yourself through the air to maintain some sort of mobility with Polarize.  I do it too, but it feels more like a workaround for something that could be improved upon.  My deaths from polarize have come more at higher levels, when your shields can be deleted very quickly.  I'll notice my overshields are gone, and my normal shields taking hits, and my only options are to run or mash Polarize.  Because Mag isn't very fast, and Polarize roots you in place, neither option is especially great.

Anyway, your other suggestions....

I always thought the same thing about pull:  I want to pull enemies to my feet.  I could be imagining it, but I think the friction as they slide along the ground has been increased which has helped a little bit.  A bit more friction wouldn't hurt tho.  It's especially annoying when I'm attempting to pull them into a bubble.

It doesn't bother me too much that not all weapons are as effective with Magnetize.  Mesa is much the same way - certain types of weapons better compliment her abilities, so I choose her loadout according to how I want to use her.  I'd rather have a power's effect be predictable, even if that means some weapons aren't as useful, honestly.

As far as damage dealt from polarize, I don't really have a problem with it as it is.  After the rework, I stopped using it as a straight damage ability and more for debuff and utility.  But I agree that it needs a buff against Corpus.  Permanently reducing their shields as you said would be nice, or maybe preventing them from regenerating for an extended duration.

Her augments are.... kinda underwhelming, yes.  Some people like Greedy Pull, so I suppose it's fine. (I don't, but... I also don't need to use it.)  I'm not sure how to make Shield Transference any better against grineer or infested, tho. (But I agree it would be nice.)  As far as charging overshields all the way, I've never had an issue.  My builds for Mag are either very high power strength, which charges overshields more quickly, or high duration and range which hits more enemies in order to charge overshields.  Giving overshields to allies could be nice, but might be troublesome to allies that don't actually want extra shields (anybody who relies on Rage, really).

I don't know what the deal is with Fracturing Crush.  I guess it's nice that it strips armor by 50%, but that's about it.  It almost seems like the 7 second immobility timer starts when the casting animation starts, which means there's only a couple seconds left when Mag can take advantage of the fact. (But I could be mistaken.)  And it also doesn't keep anything from shooting at you.  So that's... not very helpful against just about any faction other than infested.

I don't really care about vacuum one way or the other, tbh.  So that's probably why her passive doesn't mean much to me. Maybe if it was less awkward to use than bullet jumping, I'd appreciate it more.  I'd rather have something that was always useful to her kit.  And if she's meant to be slower because of her high shields, she really should have more effective shields than normal.

Thanks for commenting.  Here's hoping Mag gets that little bit of extra attention.

[tsoa]

Thanks too for your comments. I like that you don't propose some major changes but instead address the current problems she has. One thing I really like about her is that all her abilities are useful. Not all at all times but even her 1 is one of the most useful ones imho.

In regards to movement and casting speed I think that I'm just too used to her. She was my starter frame and I've never enjoyed a frame nearly as much as Mag. :) Though when I look at the weapons I use with her: Tigris variants, Ignis, Akstiletto, Atterax, TBoltace, SLecta, Lesion; you might actually have a point. Those are weapons that don't require much aiming and I can remember my friend (usually playing Trinity) always commenting on stuff I never noticed with Mag because I'm just too busy moving around all the time. I really hope that shield gating will help give her more survivability in endgame, which she clearly needs.

In regards to Magnetize: I think it should be more clear which weapons work best and iirc there are still some bugs in regards to hitscan weapons. I rarely use this ability but it shouldn't be up to the players to have to figure out all by themselves. Same goes for Mesa's Peacemaker, Ivara's Artemis Bow and other abilities that are affected by mods or weapons.

For me Fracturing Crush is a crucial mod and I rarely use Mag without it. Crush, Crush, Polarize and even high level Grineer are stripped off their armor. Even just using Stretch (145% range) is enough to work well against Grineer. I often died in Sorties during Crush due to Nullifiers or other unaffected Corpus. One reason I stopped using her those missions. Odd shift indeed from being OP against Corpus to being rather weak against them in high end content.

 

[PyroElleh]

I don't think she's in a bad place now, so I'm trying to suggest things that I think could be easily implemented by DE as more QOL changes.  And Mag was my starter frame, too. ;) I've had more fun using her after the rework than before, to be perfectly honest.  The old Polarize explosions were hilarious, but... her other abilities were lackluster in comparison. (Except Pull.  Pull is always good.)  I could only really use her effectively for Corpus before, but I can adapt her kit for all sorts of things now.

I'm going to have to try Fracturing Crush that way.  It didn't feel useful to me because I could just cast polarize a few times for the same effect, but not so much at sortie level.

I use Magnetize allll the time now.  I liked it before, but it just didn't work quite as well.  I use it to shut down heavies, protect targets, or make a big shield barrier for myself.  But holy crap is it frustrating when my dog kills the thing I'm trying to Magnetize lol.  Hence the suggestions.  I wasn't aware that there were still bugs associated with it. Those absolutely need to be addressed. (I normally use a Quanta because I like the option of shooting the cubes into the bubbles to make huge nukes.)

You make a good point about abilities that interact with weapons.  Actually... there's so many things about frames' abilities that go undocumented.  It'd be really difficult to figure it out all by yourself if something like the Wiki didn't exist.

[(PSN)LoisGordils]

Very much a great concept :]

[Jackviator]

I like all of your ideas OP, though I'd also add that Pull should be one-handed as well, so as to further cement its role as a quick bit of CC you can use while doing things like reloading and such, if you don't have enough time to lay down a Magnetize bubble/cast Crush.

And speaking of, Crush should receive a few changes as well, because as-is, I honestly rank it as one of the worst abilities in the game. Its cast time is suicidally long without Natural Talent and has gotten me downed or killed quite often; it doesn't have scaling damage, making it practically useless past level 50-60ish without a massive power strength build, and I rarely, if ever see people using it because of these two problems.

Crush should either receive some sort of scaling damage (perhaps having bones break/shatter as they appear to do in the casting animation could cause internal bleeding, leading to infinitely scaling %-based Finisher damage?) or some other scaling uses like enemy debuffs/squad buffs of some sort.

[PyroElleh]

11 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

I'd also add that Pull should be one-handed as well, so as to further cement its role as a quick bit of CC you can use while doing things like reloading and such, if you don't have enough time to lay down a Magnetize bubble/cast Crush.

That would be absolutely lovely.  I didn't think about it before because Pull is quick relative to her other abilities, but there's no reason it shouldn't be a one-handed cast too.

I didn't talk about Crush because I have no idea what I'd want to see done to it.  It's true that it's not very good except for very low levels, or spamming it repeatedly as CC.  (But Pull would probably work just as well for that and be cheaper.)  I think the only reason Crush hasn't gotten me killed very often is because I rarely use it.  Because it isn't great.  Ha.

Some sort of scaling with crush would be great.  Currently, Magnetized targets take more damage from Crush, but I honestly haven't noticed any significant difference.  It's more practical just to shoot into a Magnetize bubble to kill a crowd of enemies than it it to cast Crush.  Maybe casting Crush on the same target more than once should cause it to deal (a lot) more damage on repeated casts.  Maybe she could use a Nidus-like damage meter that would charge up the power of Crush based on energy depleted from enemies with Polarize and Pull.  Or something.

Thinking about it, tho'...  I think I'd prefer Crush to have better utility.  Mag seems to be more about manipulation, debuffs and crowd control.  Something as simple as...hm.... Crush causing enemies to have reduced accuracy for X seconds if they survive.  (Because... the bullets are flying around funny because magnets....?)  I'm really unsure.  That's all I got at the moment.

[Jackviator]

28 minutes ago, PyroElleh said:

Thinking about it, tho'...  I think I'd prefer Crush to have better utility.  Mag seems to be more about manipulation, debuffs and crowd control.  Something as simple as...hm.... Crush causing enemies to have reduced accuracy for X seconds if they survive.  (Because... the bullets are flying around funny because magnets....?)  I'm really unsure.  That's all I got at the moment.

Well, one idea I've personally suggested in the past was to swap out Crush for an ability called EMP.

The general premise is that Mag sends out an ElectroMagnetic Pulse that deals a token bit of magnetic damage, but also scrambles the targeting systems of all enemy units in a very wide radius, making them much more inaccurate for a short period of time (7-10 seconds max atbase, because it's such a powerful debuff. I feel this would be a good replacement, because outside of Titania's 4th, we don't really have any abilities in this game that affect enemy accuracy, thus, this would fill that niche.

As for how the ability would work against the Infested, they'd just be ragdolled and then stunned for a few seconds; the explanation being that the EMP affected their brain signals, temporarily severing them from the telepathic Infested hive mind and thus rendering them nearly comatose for a few seconds until their brain essentially "reboots," re-establishing the connection to the Infested hive-mind.

[PyroElleh]

30 minutes ago, Jackviator said:

I feel this would be a good replacement, because outside of Titania's 4th, we don't really have any abilities in this game that affect enemy accuracy, thus, this would fill that niche.

I really do like the sounds of that.  When I brought up an accuracy debuff, it was for the same reason - there really aren't any existing abilities that do this (aside from Titania, but that's a passive buff for her, and not a debuff on enemies the helps the entire squad.)  Your EMP idea would give Mag something unique and useful!  It also makes sense thematically - Mag can manipulate bullets by making them attracted to a target, so how about an ability that sends the bullets flying away!

[bubbabenali]

Things that make Mag great again: 

Zenistar, Greedy Pull and Zenurik

No problems to CC and kill 24\7 until at least lvl 100.

With enoug power str even armored targets are no thread. You just have to hide somwhere - but not every Warframe is supposed to engage enemies directly.

On your problem with Crush: That surely is abug Crush should effect any enemy in range

[bubbabenali]

3 hours ago, Jackviator said:

I like all of your ideas OP, though I'd also add that Pull should be one-handed as well, so as to further cement its role as a quick bit of CC you can use while doing things like reloading and such, if you don't have enough time to lay down a Magnetize bubble/cast Crush.

And speaking of, Crush should receive a few changes as well, because as-is, I honestly rank it as one of the worst abilities in the game. Its cast time is suicidally long without Natural Talent and has gotten me downed or killed quite often; it doesn't have scaling damage, making it practically useless past level 50-60ish without a massive power strength build, and I rarely, if ever see people using it because of these two problems.

Crush should either receive some sort of scaling damage (perhaps having bones break/shatter as they appear to do in the casting animation could cause internal bleeding, leading to infinitely scaling %-based Finisher damage?) or some other scaling uses like enemy debuffs/squad buffs of some sort.

Crush is usually used as a fast CC since it instantly stops all enemies in range.

[LifeNine]

Mag's movement is 1, so it's not slower than average. She just feels kinda slow compared to other frames.

8 hours ago, PyroElleh said:

Refund energy if the Magnetize target dies while the ability is still being cast.

• This would reduce frustration and address some of Mag's energy management issues.
• Alternatively, make magnetize significantly faster to cast. (Or both. I wouldn't complain.)

I agree with making Magnetize refund energy if the enemy is killed or just make the bubble appear regardless. There's so many times where I end up wasting energy and I don't get the bubble I need for protection.

7 hours ago, tsoa said:

Magnetize:

• Consistency when it comes to used weapons. Some are good with Magnetize others are pretty useless. If weapons have a similar strength, then they should work similar with Magnetize.
• Being able to shoot enemies that stand before a Magnetize bubble. A problem for shotguns and maybe other weapons

Magnetize has a bug with all hit scan weapons, which makes it problematic to use sometimes. If an enemy is in front of the bubble but not in it, you can't shoot the enemy if your cursor is pointing at the bubble. You bullet will be absorbed by the bubble instead. They can shoot you fine however.

[PyroElleh]

31 minutes ago, LifeNine said:

 

Mag's movement is 1, so it's not slower than average. She just feels kinda slow compared to other frames.

 

She's not slower than average, but she is slower than your average squishy caster frame.  Mag isn't especially tanky, but she does have a bit more durability due to her high shields.  Using her abilities in strategic ways can also help her survive. That's why I'm suggesting she be given some one-hand cast abilities (Polarize, and Pull like Jackviator suggested) to help with mobility, instead of buffing her running speed directly which would be more typical of a caster frame.  Right now, all of her abilities root her in place and some are rather slow, which makes using them kind of frustrating and occasionally deadly.

I never noticed that about Magnetize (probably because I shove them in the bubble first before I point the Tigris at them haha).  But I can see where that would be a problem with weapons like shotguns. Otherwise... if your cursor isn't pointing at the enemy, wouldn't that register as a miss anyway?  But.. any kind of bug is definitely no good.  I hope DE can come up with a fix.

[RunningTree3]

Thanks for a great topic to discuss. Mag was my starter and is still my favourite.

Shields

I chose Mag specifically for her shields, thinking this would be the specialization I would take. Unfortunately, her shield stats were not that exceptional once I collected more frames. Right now, Frost Prime has greater shield stats than Mag Prime.

So I would love to see some sort of shield regeneration perk for her.

Energy

I agree that Pull's energy orb generation is too dependent on the ability to make the killing blow. (This same problem applies to Oberon's Reckoning).

I would much rather see the augment Shield Transference changed to some sort of 'Energy Induction' where each shielded/armored enemy affected could generate a tiny amount of energy, perhaps even for allies. To me this would also be a thematic nod to the link between electricity and magnetism. Since Volt has the augment Capacitance to build shields, it would be fun to see Mag have an augment to build energy.

Pull

I am not sure how Pull's physics are determined. Enemies often end up behind me (same with using Valkyr's Ripline). I have had to resort to having to aim slightly 'downwards', which has helped with minimizing the ragdoll. I am sure it would be great to see the physics moderated(?) especially with using it to place enemies into Magnetize fields.

Crush

I would be interested to see Crush 'granulated' -- think how Blade Storm was broken down into individual instances. (The overall effectiveness of BS rework may be questionable, but the result was at least greater control)

Right now Crush is three separate instances. I would like to see the amount of 'crushing' controllable.

e.g. Pressing 4 would cast a single 'crush'. If you then let go of 4, the ability finishes its animation. But if instead you held on to 4, it would continue on to a 2nd crushing (and pick up new enemies that came near). If you held on for even longer, it would go all the way to its 3rd.

The idea is that you could control whether you wanted to keep crushing or not; such as using it for a fast CC, or instead to keep inflicting damage.

[tsoa]

6 hours ago, Jackviator said:

And speaking of, Crush should receive a few changes as well, because as-is, I honestly rank it as one of the worst abilities in the game. Its cast time is suicidally long without Natural Talent and has gotten me downed or killed quite often; it doesn't have scaling damage, making it practically useless past level 50-60ish without a massive power strength build, and I rarely, if ever see people using it because of these two problems.

Crush should either receive some sort of scaling damage (perhaps having bones break/shatter as they appear to do in the casting animation could cause internal bleeding, leading to infinitely scaling %-based Finisher damage?) or some other scaling uses like enemy debuffs/squad buffs of some sort.

I tend to use Crush very often and it's better CC than Pull if you have squad mates that can kill enemies while they're being crushed. But there are indeed problems with it like not all enemies being affected in it's range.

Dying: It works well against Grineer (together with Fracturing Crush and Polarize), although I found it to be suicidal against Corpus in Sorties.

Power Strength: I merly use Intesify (and Growing Power), so my base power is 130% but I can kill whole Grineer groups in Sortie 3 with 5 or so castings. For me that's ok because it's a CC and a damage ability. But spamming Crush that much is not much fun indeed. The route it takes will probably depend on if it's rather seen as CC or as a damage ability.

5 hours ago, Jackviator said:

Well, one idea I've personally suggested in the past was to swap out Crush for an ability called EMP.

I read it before and it's still not my cup of tea. How about this:

Crush:

• immediately affects all enemies in its range and immediately the ones that later move into its range (still problems with this :( )
• enemies unable to move for 2 seconds (not affected by strength)
• reduced accuracy for survivors of Crush for 7 seconds (not affected by strength)
• affects bullets and beams to give XX% Damage Reduction (affected by strenth with a cap) during it's casting

Fracturing Crush:

• 50% armor/shield reduction for 7 seconds
• survivors unable to move for 7 seconds with reduced accuracy for 12 seconds

All times count from the moment Crush is finished, so that once enemies can move again they have a reduced accuracy for 5 seconds. The Damage Reduction can be 50% at base with a 75% cap or 75% base with ~90% cap. I would leave that up to the Devs to find something appropriate, same for the reduction of accuracy. Crush could even lead to decreased movement speed for survivors, which would make it good against Infested.

1 hour ago, RunningTree3 said:

e.g. Pressing 4 would cast a single 'crush'. If you then let go of 4, the ability finishes its animation. But if instead you held on to 4, it would continue on to a 2nd crushing (and pick up new enemies that came near). If you held on for even longer, it would go all the way to its 3rd.

The idea is that you could control whether you wanted to keep crushing or not; such as using it for a fast CC, or instead to keep inflicting damage.

That's a very interesting idea and I like it if the casting time stays the same for all 3 ticks. Though I would not require the player to keep pressing 4 the whole time. ;) It's s.th. that should be determined at the beginning: tap 4 = 1 tick, hold for 0.5 seconds = 2 ticks, hold for 1 second = all 3 ticks. Maybe with different times but I think it's necessary for the animation to know how many ticks the player wants to have. I wonder how the casting animation would have to be change for this.

[Helljack84]

She could really use some minor changes. Every Mag that did decent damage (the ~2 I've seen in the past months) was standing in some dark corner of the map to not get turned into swiss cheese during her lengthy animations.

Her kit does work (somewhere between useless and bring the apocalypse lvl) but it doesn't hit the sweet spot mainly for qol reasons.

[LifeNine]

7 hours ago, PyroElleh said:

I never noticed that about Magnetize (probably because I shove them in the bubble first before I point the Tigris at them haha).  But I can see where that would be a problem with weapons like shotguns. Otherwise... if your cursor isn't pointing at the enemy, wouldn't that register as a miss anyway?  But.. any kind of bug is definitely no good.  I hope DE can come up with a fix.

Even when you are pointing at the enemy, if the bubble is behind the enemy the shot will be absorbed. This is a problem for a lot of weapons because a good portion are hit scan.

And I agree, doing something to improve her overall movement in the game would be great. There's o many times I died before the cast animation for magnetize or polarize finished.

Edited January 6, 2017 by LifeNine

[PyroElleh]

11 hours ago, RunningTree3 said:

I agree that Pull's energy orb generation is too dependent on the ability to make the killing blow. (This same problem applies to Oberon's Reckoning).

I would much rather see the augment Shield Transference changed to some sort of 'Energy Induction' where each shielded/armored enemy affected could generate a tiny amount of energy, perhaps even for allies.

I would love this too. Probably more than the other things I mentioned before.  But I'd much rather it be part of the default ability than the augment, tbh.  Or a lot more base energy.  (Or both, go nuts.) Like I tried to get across in my post, she seems to have trouble managing energy with no good trade offs, so I feel like it needs to be addressed on the base frame and built-in abilities.

And that's an interesting Crush idea.  I'm not sure it would address the scaling issues, but it could help with "dying because you're locked in an animation and all you wanted was some quick CC".  I'm not a big fan of the "press and hold" powers, tbh. But because you're rooted in place with Crush anyway it might not be so annoying.

Another option/addition could simply be making her immune to damage and knockdown for the duration of the cast.  It's only brief immunity, so I don't think it would really be too unfair.  It could have some nice strategic applications too.

I really like the EMP idea, personally.  But I'd be all for a blend of that and our current Crush, too.  As Tsoa has made clear, some people have already heavily worked Crush into their strategies, so completely changing it might not be the most satisfying option.

[PyroElleh]

9 hours ago, Helljack84 said:

She could really use some minor changes. Every Mag that did decent damage (the ~2 I've seen in the past months) was standing in some dark corner of the map to not get turned into swiss cheese during her lengthy animations.

Her kit does work (somewhere between useless and bring the apocalypse lvl) but it doesn't hit the sweet spot mainly for qol reasons.

Man, that pretty much hits the nail on the head.

She feels really awkward at first, but I hit a moment where I realized "Wow, this is actually pretty powerful.  What else can I do?".  I do bring her into sorties when it makes sense, but I have an unusually hard time keeping her alive. (And this is coming from someone who takes a Nova with no shield/health/armor/QT into sorties all the time.)  I've had quite a lot of success doing solo defense missions with her, too.

So, yeah.... I'd love to see her get some tweeks.  And maybe some of the more intensive adjustments to her power mechanics that people have been suggesting here, as well.  (Crush.  Plz.)

Edited January 6, 2017 by PyroElleh
Spelling

[TheLexiConArtist]

I was there in the rework feedback thread, and here's the story as I saw it:

• They reworked Mag to make her Magnetise bubble the keystone of her kit. Which was great. "Mag's ruined!" said the masses, while I absconded with >80% of damage and kills in sorties.
• They removed the buggy supercharging of Magnetise DoT, which was reasonable, although they managed to switch it over to severely undercharging instead.
• They applied Diminishing Returns to Magnetise bubbles, and things are starting to go downhill fast. Having 2 seconds to make use of a bubble after your animation is finished, so useful?
• They refused to acknowledge and fix the detrimental bugs with Magnetise damage absorption, and options were sorely limited. Hope you don't like hitscan weapons, continuous weapons or anything that relies on its crit!
• They made Nullifiers capable of instantaneously removing Magnetise bubbles, despite the fact that the design of the ability inherently means the Mag has little counterplay. Either she goes beyond the bubble and exposes herself to try to kill the Nullifier... or her defensive object is abruptly removed and she's exposed anyway.

Supra to charge your bubble; projectile multishot works and it's a non-crit heavy-hitter (plus Heavy Cal Supra hitting 100% of bullets due to giant bubbletarget is a LOT of power). Redeemer or other "ranged" melee (Sarpa would probably be best now) to 'shoot' through a bubble and wear down Nullifiers.

Not pictured: Zenurik Energy Overflow to continue reliably operating with her limited energy economy.

 

It's possible to use Mag, but it's very punishing of mistakes, and relies a lot on information that is not presented. See that loadout name? It was sarcastic at first. Then the direct and indirect nerfs came rolling in...

=================================================================================
So what does she need?

Pull is fine. Polarise does.. a job, as does Crush (especially with augment) but we really need to solidify Magnetise if that's going to be her keystone.

 

If Mag is to rely on Magnetise, raise the lower limit of diminished returns so that it will always provide an adequate usage (supermaxed duration should provide more than 4 seconds, of which 2 is spent in the casting animation).

If Mag is to rely on Magnetise, then make as many weapons as possible intuitively work as advertised. 25% damage into Bubble Power. That means all multishot, all crit, all the continuous weapon damage over time. Weapons that operate with ancillary effects (especially explosives) not applying that secondary damage into the bubble charge is.. understandable _{read: probably a nightmare to logic out and balance}.

If Mag is to rely on Magnetise, then grant her the ability to use it reliably (no dead enemies causing dud casts at cost) and the safety to rely on it. (That nullifier object-dispel buff was and always will be unnecessary.)

 

If we could also get a Magnetise augment along with those fixes to just plop it down without an enemy target that would be rad. Tactical DoT chokepoints exactly where I want them, yes please.

[RunningTree3]

15 hours ago, tsoa said:

That's a very interesting idea and I like it if the casting time stays the same for all 3 ticks. Though I would not require the player to keep pressing 4 the whole time. ;) It's s.th. that should be determined at the beginning: tap 4 = 1 tick, hold for 0.5 seconds = 2 ticks, hold for 1 second = all 3 ticks. Maybe with different times but I think it's necessary for the animation to know how many ticks the player wants to have. I wonder how the casting animation would have to be change for this.

 

5 hours ago, PyroElleh said:

And that's an interesting Crush idea.  I'm not sure it would address the scaling issues, but it could help with "dying because you're locked in an animation and all you wanted was some quick CC".  I'm not a big fan of the "press and hold" powers, tbh. But because you're rooted in place with Crush anyway it might not be so annoying.

Good points there. But I would rather the game ask "Do you wish to crush more?" rather than "How many crushes to do?". This would provide more on-the-fly decision-making; as opposed to, for example, choosing 3 crushes at the beginning of cast, but then be unable to exit them when the situation suddenly changes. 

So activation could be more like:

• Press 4 once to cast just 1 instance of Crush; then go straight into the 'drop the mobs' animation ending;
• unless you Press 4 before the 1st animation completes, you would combo a 2nd instance; then it would go into the 'drop' animation ending;
• unless you Press 4 once more before the 2nd animation completes, you would combo a final instance, and then drop animation ending as usual.

I am thinking this may be possible given that Nekros Shadows of the Dead can perform a partial casting animation when shadows are still alive?

[(PSN)namtap032892]

Hm... I'm not sure if it's because I first started in the era of "Spam Crush => WIN!" before taking a couple year break and came back after her rework, or if I just play Mag strange, but I really don't run across the same issues that everyone else seems to. Then again, I have a very... unique Mag build: Apparently, I'm the only person who feels Rush and Armored Agility are a must on her. ...Don't judge me.

When I'm playing Mag, I ensure she's very mobile, so she can get to the place she'd have the greatest effect on most enemies quickly enough to actually do something, and the additional armor from Armored Agility is just enough to prevent me from getting nuked before I can Polarize or CC everyone to death. Her passive also means bullet jumping in a precarious situation might net you a health orb, or some other helpful pick up.

I'd also like to mention: Fracturing Crush's CC is dependent on Power Duration. So it's 7 seconds of immobility at 100% duration. Rather annoying, so I don't really bother with Mag's Augments. I feel I could use the Mod Slot for something more worthwhile.

In regards to Mag's issues with Energy management? Well.... 175% Efficiency, plus 20 or so Large Team Energy Restores makes that a moot point.

I'm also surprised no one has mentioned this before: Can we please, please, please make Crush follow the laws of physics? You know, make it so that enemies who have encased themselves in metal actually get crushed by said metal? It's honestly never made sense to me that enemies that have more Armor take less damage from Crush. Besides, if Crush did more damage the more armor an enemy had, she'd have an ability that's effective against Grineer without being super effective against the Corpus. Just like how Polarize turns Shield Ospreys into bombs but does squat against Grineer. Other than that, the fact that crush can stop most enemies for as long as it takes to cast means I don't really have any issues with the long cast time.

In regards to survivability, my biggest complaint is how a Mutalist Osprey, even in relatively low levels, can throw down a gas cloud, and I die even before the Poison Status effect approaches it's last tick.

[tsoa]

Another thing that bugs me is that Polarize just gives 500 shield points, which doesn't add to her survivability. The added duration and the higher cost due to her rework, as well as her limited energy pool doesn't really make it a good defensive ability. I guess that I'd rather have it restore shields completely but not being recastable during it's duration. Which is s.th. I would have to test out though since my duration is fairly high (~8 secs for Polarize).

[PyroElleh]

15 hours ago, (PS4)namtap032892 said:

Apparently, I'm the only person who feels Rush and Armored Agility are a must on her. ...Don't judge me.

Actually, you're not lol.  I use Rush on my "Not Defense" build, where I expect I'll be running around a lot without being able to benefit much from camping in bubbles for cover.

 

16 hours ago, (PS4)namtap032892 said:

In regards to Mag's issues with Energy management? Well.... 175% Efficiency, plus 20 or so Large Team Energy Restores makes that a moot point.

I strongly disagree with this general concept.  I believe a well made character should have a balanced, functioning kit at base value. (At rank 30, at any rate.)  Mods, consumables, and focus passives should be available to make the kit stronger for higher levels of play or allow the player to alter their strategy, not cover holes in the design.

Without any modification, Mag has some issues that make her unbalanced:

• She isn't especially tanky, but her mobility is also relatively low.
• She has defensive powers, but casting any of them leaves her vulnerable.
• Her powers encourage casting in combos for the best results, but she has a small energy pool and no reliable way to gain back energy on her own.

Compare this to a frame like, say... Nova.  Also without modification: Nova is somewhat fragile, but moves very quickly.  She also has a power dedicated to mobility, that is easy to cast.  She has a very good CC power that could be used defensively.  It is slow to cast and leaves her vulnerable, but due to her high mobility she can more easily escape and cast it from cover.  She relies on her powers for both offense and defense, so she has a higher energy pool.  This also makes it more practical to use her powers in combos.

This sense of balance is what I'm after for Mag.  Right now I feel almost required to use Natural Talent, Rush, and Zenurik - not to make her stronger but to make her work in the first place.

Also....  slash and toxin suck haha.  I feel like that's an overall imbalance with damage types and defense types in the game 'tho, not just Mag specific.