I truly hate Rivens.

[Coaa]

20 minutes ago, (PS4)SKRIMP-N-GRITZ said:

I love Rivens, and I understand all the arguments against them. All I wish was that they fix kuva farming so re-rolling wasn't such a boring endeavor. 

The day they make kuva a resource drop from the kuva fortress I would be so happy. I would legit live in survival on fortress with nekros and my trusty flux rifle with crazy riven.

After farming probably 500k+ kuva, it's boring doing it that way. I want more ways to get it.

[artemisfortune]

7 hours ago, Tyrian3k said:

It is and always was, but there's a lot of white knights who say that it's hard work to change numbers and we don't know how hard it is because we don't work in the field.

Meanwhile I can change the damage of all weapons in HL2 via console commands...

If a weapon has problem with its design, that's a whole different issue, but changing numbers is easy as pie.

Same stuff goes for all the useless mods, but we can't possibly buff them to a useful level.

I work in the field. It's @(*()$ hard.

[atom]

4 hours ago, Troll_Logic said:

Tweaking the numbers fix the problem for everyone immediately.

Riven mods make players play the game.  And make players farm kuva.  And make player use that stupid operator mode.  And that's the point.

sadly farming for hours and spending the kuva in a few clicks to get more crappy RNG makes me realize how much time i'm WASTING in this game and makes me quit it. good for me not for DE.

[Thrymm]

5 hours ago, Coaa said:

You say that you miss going off and farming for new mods but rivens aren't much different. You farm kuva to TURN IT INTO a new mod. I don't understand the gripe with them. They balanced the high tier weapons with weak disposition so it doesn't make a massive impact, yet really crappy weapons can get some stupid good rolls now.

It has brought up 3 weapons I never would have touched before and now I never unequip them. I get that them tweaking weapons would be better, but look at how long it takes them to do a pass on 1-2 weapons, then they sometimes keep tweaking it for a week or longer after. With rivens, it's a universal across the board. Setup a disposition and then bam. You cover all of the weapons across the board.

It would have taken them years to tweak all weapons, and by then new metas would have been formed, another set of power creep etc. We are talking about 100s of weapons here.

@ashrah ok how is this ANY different from before? This game has never changed, it's always been farming the same things over and over and over. Not a single thing changed except we got a new layer of farm over and over and over. It's almost like people suddenly realize what the game is about and have a gripe with it when I knew this in my first week of trying the game.

1.  Yes, you farm Kuva, at it's determined locations and enemies, by ignoring the mission as much as possible to play the....erm....pretty bad mini-game that is getting Kuva.  After that, make sure the mission completes with as minimal effort as possible and move on.

2.  I agree that it can bring weapons up.  It also showcases how outright impossible it is to bring some weapons up with simple multipliers because they are just that bad.  Buzzlok with a good crit Riven is now Sortie viable because it started with 10% crit and a usable multiplier so it got there.  The Hind didn't get there because its base just sucks that hard.

3.  It wouldn't take years to tweak the numbers in a spreadsheet so that DPS numbers work.  I could do it in an afternoon.  Worst case scenario is that I'd get a couple wrong and have to "hotfix" it over a couple weeks.  How is that different than the strong rivens already....actually, I can answer that, because I'd have actually looked at the numbers I'd know before I entered them that I can be putting multiple hundreds of percent multipliers on multiplier based weapons like the Soma, for example. 

   Take the Buzzlok and Hind from above.  I KNEW the Hind couldn't make it because its base damage, crit, and status chances aren't high enough to elevate through mod multipliers.  I built it to show what it'd do, and it did pretty much what I expected it to.  I KNEW the Buzzlok would make it because the base had those numbers.  I KNEW my Lanka would turn straight crazy because it was already good but because the disposition system is idiotic, and it'd get multipliers on a weapon whose usage problem(sniper rifles in general are a great example) was not multiplier based.  The weapon was already more than sortie capable and now it could probably handle the sorties at double their level simply because the disposition system doesn't even bother to look at why weapons aren't used, it just looks at the fact that they aren't.

    Rivens actually make this problem worse, from a "could take years to fix" perspective.  It offers all the modifiers and all the weapons, which means that a person could get a combination that overpowers a weapon that was not forseen, but would have been by a person actually looking at stats on paper.  As we have also seen, it creates hundreds, if not thousands of combinations that don't even begin to touch the problem.  It's throwing spaghetti at the wall with a tiny sticky spot that is a default win, all the rest losers.  It's clumsy, lazy, and ill conceived.

4.  The meta is easy to fix.  Stop adding power creep.  Done, I fixed it permanently, no need to revisit anything after it's brought up to speed, on a numeric level.

Now don't get me wrong, numbers can't fix every weapon.  One of the great things about this game is that virtually every weapon is different(except melee, they really are just the class they are in plus art), but in some cases the weapon or basic functionality still winds up clunky---sniper rifles in this many target game are a good example because they just don't transition to a different target well enough for some scenarios.

The Hind is, deceptively, an example of a weapon that can actually be fixed by numbers, but Riven multipliers can't really do it.  Double its base fire rate and accuracy and suddenly it handles relatively well.  Do it by filling your mod slots, however, and it doesn't have the base damage stats to stand out because you can't afford a mod slot for those modifiers.  If it had the base fire rate and damage stats, adding mods to it would bring it to a strong level with a commensurate ammo efficiency drawback because of the five round burst.

Manually adjusting numbers to achieve across the board weapon parity, on a basic number level, would be a good start.  It'd even work with the Riven system itself!  If everything could have about the same level of power increase from a single tier of Riven mods, a more targeted expectation of player power gain from them could be achieved instead of the current system that defaults some to hopeless and some to overpowered or continuing overpower.

[Unholyrequiem]

I would say Kuva Siphons are one of the least thought out missions in the game with their straight up obnoxious mechanics. I can't enjoy this game mode and it's a hassle to have to do it so that I can try to achieve an optimal Riven mod. 

Edited January 12, 2017 by Unholyrequiem

[k05h]

What I find rather strange about rivens is that it limits you even further in your choice of weapons. When your farmed tons of kuva, used it for multiple re-rolls until you found your perfect riven you will stick with that weapon for a long time. You made such a huge investment and now playing the weapon will be the payoff. Instead of perma-use of Soma P and Tonkor you will perma-use the weapon you have your god-riven for. And to make it worse you cannot reuse that riven on any other MR-fodder weapon. There is even less incentive to go back to other weapons.

I just dont get the concept: exchange one meta weapon for another meta weapon. 

And you cannot really compare it with syndacte mods either because "farming" standing can be done casually, stats are not random and you have not farm another ressource for the riven slot machine. 

I guess we will soon see Kuva farming fatigue with lots of players because it is the same again and again and again. And the whole slot machine re-roll mechanism actually wants you to play until you burn out. 

It is just sad :(

 

[ArbitUHM]

4 minutes ago, k05h said:

What I find rather strange about rivens is that it limits you even further in your choice of weapons. When your farmed tons of kuva, used it for multiple re-rolls until you found your perfect riven you will stick with that weapon for a long time. You made such a huge investment and now playing the weapon will be the payoff. Instead of perma-use of Soma P and Tonkor you will perma-use the weapon you have your god-riven for. And to make it worse you cannot reuse that riven on any other MR-fodder weapon. There is even less incentive to go back to other weapons.

I just dont get the concept: exchange one meta weapon for another meta weapon. 

And you cannot really compare it with syndacte mods either because "farming" standing can be done casually, stats are not random and you have not farm another ressource for the riven slot machine. 

I guess we will soon see Kuva farming fatigue with lots of players because it is the same again and again and again. And the whole slot machine re-roll mechanism actually wants you to play until you burn out. 

It is just sad :(

 

OK, I agree that Kuva farming is getting pretty repetitive. 

But, how on earth can you argue that having another weapon that is sortie capable "limits you even further in your choice of weapons"? It's a new weapon that is (roughly) on equal footing with your meta weapons. It's another choice. I mean, I'm sorry you feel you have to use your Riven because you spent a lot of time on it, but that's on you. There's no requirement for you to do that. 

I don't absolve DE for this game's many flaws, but sometimes I honestly feel the a lot player dissatisfaction comes from the players' own compulsion to min/max, optimize, and be a completionist.

[DEATHLOK]

I don't use them. I will never use them. They should have manually tweaked weapon stats,

Endless end-game farming? Is that what they are?

[Snib]

 

5 hours ago, ArbitUHM said:

I don't absolve DE for this game's many flaws, but sometimes I honestly feel the a lot player dissatisfaction comes from the players' own compulsion to min/max, optimize, and be a completionist.

So very true.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Snib

[Snib]

_{(forum lag, pls delete)}

Edited January 13, 2017 by Snib

[Snib]

8 hours ago, ArbitUHM said:

Sicarus Prime hype isn't warranted IMO. 120 damage per burst as compared to 150 for the Lex Prime, and SP has worse crit stats (20 vs 25%). Plus it's a burst weapon, which is mostly a downside IMO. It's significantly worse without a Riven mod. The only things it has going for it is it can do a decent job at applying status and taking down nullifier shields; otherwise Lex Prime is better. 

I'm not a big fan of burst weapons myself, but that aside, if you run the numbers you'll see the SP has higher burst DPS and slightly lower sustained DPS than the LexP (crit build on both). Now if you add a riven for over +300% damage, etc. the SP blows every other secondary (and primary, for what it's worth) out of the water. The disposition will need a heavy nerf hammer for sure.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Snib

[Sahansral]

6 hours ago, ArbitUHM said:

I don't absolve DE for this game's many flaws, but sometimes I honestly feel the a lot player dissatisfaction comes from the players' own compulsion to min/max, optimize, and be a completionist.

Perhaps because DE has contitioned its player base to aim for completion so far?

You know, with profile stats, achievements, junctions,etc ... the mastery mechanic alone has written "for completionists" alle over its head.

Giving the players event items that require many hours of grind for a minimal increase in power requires a certain kind of players to "enjoy".

By having to a wide gap between weapons, taking non-meta weapons to something like sorties, forces you to min-max and optimze.

The examples are endless.

And now with the introduction of rivens, you expect this conditioning to be erased magically?

Rivens may have been introduced to encourage more use of older weapons, but the riven mechanics are build to keep us busy, to buy time for the next content. What DE forgets is 

a) that they trained the players to strive for perfection.

b) that Warframe has hundreds of weapons

c) that multiple layers of rng can really ...well multiply very fast.

It's a perfect storm for player burnout.

[(PSN)CactusButtons]

19 hours ago, Hannah-Eliz said:

Riven Mods... a set of mods that push old weapons to a newer level...

Ever since they were bought into the game I will say I haven't played nearly as much Warframe. I gave the Mods a try I really did but obtaining them, kuva farming and rerolling the mods... it's just not fun.

I honestly miss the feeling of going off and farming for better mods from certain enemies because it could mean I am killing low levels on Venus or I might be doing a Nightmare Defence on Pluto.

Riven were not a good thing to add to the game at all and there are better ways to buff old weapons by adding weapon specific mods to syndicates, reworked boss drop tables, events, baro, void, new tilesets... anything! 

This system makes me want to not play anymore which is a shame because a few years ago I was recommending a lot of people to try out Warframe... 

Anyway thanks for the years of enjoyment and good luck everyone!

U don't have to take part in rivens if your not comfortable with the grind that comes with it. 

[Sahansral]

4 minutes ago, (PS4)CactusButtons said:

U don't have to take part in rivens if your not comfortable with the grind that comes with it. 

Each day existing content gets more trivialized by rivens and the damage increase they grant. You can already read threads demanding higher difficulty content and I expect these voices to get more. It's just a logic consequence.

Rather soon I expect neglecting rivens will mean "Either stick to the top tier meta or  don't go to certain areas of the star chart". Yeah, I know DE's statement about not balancing content around rivens, but ... really?!

[Hannah-Eliz]

5 hours ago, (PS4)CactusButtons said:

U don't have to take part in rivens if your not comfortable with the grind that comes with it. 

Riven have had such an impact on game balance though. It won't be long until there are game modes that require Rivens.

I want no part in this RNG nightmare... A lot of developers are doing this RNG Wall for gear in games now and honestly as someone in the Games Industry I find it only drives players away...

These types of systems show they aren't listening, they want to put limited resources into content to keep players tagging along. 

They could have added so many better systems that rewarded all players equally, equal reward for the same content for everyone.

A player shouldn't be rewarded better for the same content another person did as that isn't fair, it demoralises the player who got the worse reward even though they put the same amount of work in.

Anyway rant over.

[deothor]

On 12.01.2017 at 5:00 PM, Fugana said:

Noone likes riven mods :)

I might be the odd one, but.. I kinda enjoy them.

So far got trash-tier rivens, but.. In the end that's kinda better than nothing.

And by nothing I mean DE deciding to balance/buff old weapons.

We know it won't happen. At least not on such a huge scale.

21 hours ago, JSharpie said:

I work in the field. It's @(*()$ hard.

Rice field :D?

Edited January 13, 2017 by deothor

[Snib]

1 hour ago, deothor said:

I might be the odd one, but.. I kinda enjoy them.

So far got trash-tier rivens, but.. In the end that's kinda better than nothing.

And by nothing I mean DE deciding to balance/buff old weapons.

We know it won't happen. At least not on such a huge scale.

Rice field :D?

You probably are the odd one. Why 6-forma a trash tier weapon to use a riven on only to end up with a weapon that's still far inferior? I'd have to have some serious love for that trash tier weapon to even consider doing that.

[ArbitUHM]

13 hours ago, Sahansral said:

Perhaps because DE has contitioned its player base to aim for completion so far?

You know, with profile stats, achievements, junctions,etc ... the mastery mechanic alone has written "for completionists" alle over its head.

Giving the players event items that require many hours of grind for a minimal increase in power requires a certain kind of players to "enjoy".

By having to a wide gap between weapons, taking non-meta weapons to something like sorties, forces you to min-max and optimze.

The examples are endless.

And now with the introduction of rivens, you expect this conditioning to be erased magically?

Rivens may have been introduced to encourage more use of older weapons, but the riven mechanics are build to keep us busy, to buy time for the next content. What DE forgets is 

a) that they trained the players to strive for perfection.

b) that Warframe has hundreds of weapons

c) that multiple layers of rng can really ...well multiply very fast.

It's a perfect storm for player burnout.

DE provides a lot of goals and numbers to increase, but in the end it's up to the player to decide what they spend their time doing. Calling it "conditioning" is pretty ridiculous. No one is strapping you into your chair and "forcing" you to do anything.

Also, there are still options to use mid-tier weapons in sorties that don't involve six forma and getting a riven. There are a frames that can boost your damage through the roof, and plenty of CC options that turn enemies into target dummies.

[BETAOPTICS]

The problem with tweaking weapon numbers outright is that DE wants to keep players getting newer gear. If you can take a MK-1 Braton to level 2 000 enemies, what is the point of obtaining new items without just wanting them for gimmics or looks? Rivens are a good way to address the problem on both sides. However I do think that the minigame to obtain Kuva can be boring to some players. It really depends how appealing that is and I think it would not be such a problem if that wasn't the only way to obtain Kuva. If there would be alerts with Kuva, I do think players would not find it so exhausting.

[Sahansral]

42 minutes ago, ArbitUHM said:

DE provides a lot of goals and numbers to increase, but in the end it's up to the player to decide what they spend their time doing. Calling it "conditioning" is pretty ridiculous. No one is strapping you into your chair and "forcing" you to do anything.

Also, there are still options to use mid-tier weapons in sorties that don't involve six forma and getting a riven. There are a frames that can boost your damage through the roof, and plenty of CC options that turn enemies into target dummies.

There's always the "It's just a game!!!11" argument. 

I standy by my point. Over the years DE contioned us, the playerbase. There are countless examples for marginal upgrades DE gave us and we grinded hours, days or weeks for them. Why? Because most players are nearer to the perfectionist camp than to the "doesn't matter for me" crowd. 

Look at the anger the exclusive mastery points evoke.

Look at the Hema discussion. If the community would be more relaxed they could just wait some months to get the mutagen samples or just skip the weapon.  ,

Another example why you can't just skip certain aspects of the game ? Archwing. Many despise it, but they just can't blend it out because DE ensured that you'll need it for mastery, certain ressources, jordas raid and some quests.

Look at the codex, the profile stats, things like the kuria. That's all features which rewards that completionist thinking.

So I'm very baffled, when I read that rivens are now completly optional - just look at the power boost good ones can give meta weapons.

Sure, NOW you can use mid-tier weapons in Sorties. But do you really grind weeks to be able to bring low-tier weapons to sorties or do you invest that time into upgrading rivens for at least mid-tier weapons?

What about the players who want content above sorties after getting those monster rivens? Which group will DE please then? The one who breezes through the hardest content 

or the ones who grinded hard to get their favourite not-so-good weapons to sortie level?

Every new content after the introdcution of rivens will anger one of those camps. Either it's roughly sortie level, then the first crowd will get bored. If it's harder than sorties then low-tier weapons will be left in the dust again.

Edited January 13, 2017 by Sahansral

[Volinus7]

Riven is a tumor of this game. Seriously all of you should have seen that ILLUMINATI sign on top of it.

[Doc-Orange]

I absolutly LOVE Riven mods. They're giving me a reason to play to improve my arsenal. Nobody has the same stats like me - this is another motivation and I'm constantly hunting a better Riven!

Again, I love it!

Edited January 13, 2017 by Doc-Orange

[(XBOX)Skode]

I agree they should've straight buffed weaker weapons and nerfed stronger ones to balance vs riven mods. The same meta weapons remain as such, more so even as they're the ones people want rivens for. You can have the best panthera Riven ever but it's the dread rivens people are throwing 600 plus plat at on trade chat.

Doesn't matter they get less stats vs unpopular weapon rivens it's still buffing weapons which were already far better than the alternatives out there. Shame really as it's gonna get worse - Tigris Prime rivens anyone? No new player is gonna have fun as even late game becomes one shot fodder... I'm already one shotting bosses.

[deothor]

3 hours ago, Snib said:

You probably are the odd one. Why 6-forma a trash tier weapon to use a riven on only to end up with a weapon that's still far inferior? I'd have to have some serious love for that trash tier weapon to even consider doing that.

Why would you ever 6 forma anything.. That's like overkill going overkill.

That aside..

Simple question: What would you want more:

1. Rivens that will be most likely balanced further (cause they are relatively new). With maybe new possible stats to show up on them

2. Very slim and most likely unrealistic possibility that DE would take a look at crappy weapons anytime soon this century?

 

They sure do balance weapons.... sometimes.... kinda.... But in most cases they don't care much changing old weapons. So we have at least this "huge-flashy-bandaid" in form of rivens.

And lastly, in the end it all boils down to money. DE will most likely monetize rivens in some sort or another, while balancing weapons wouldn;t bring them as much cash i guess.

[(XBOX)Skode]

22 minutes ago, deothor said:

Why would you ever 6 forma anything.. That's like overkill going overkill.

That aside..

Simple question: What would you want more:

1. Rivens that will be most likely balanced further (cause they are relatively new). With maybe new possible stats to show up on them

2. Very slim and most likely unrealistic possibility that DE would take a look at crappy weapons anytime soon this century?

 

They sure do balance weapons.... sometimes.... kinda.... But in most cases they don't care much changing old weapons. So we have at least this "huge-flashy-bandaid" in form of rivens.

And lastly, in the end it all boils down to money. DE will most likely monetize rivens in some sort or another, while balancing weapons wouldn;t bring them as much cash i guess.

The making money point is fair as rivens kick started trade to really keep plat flowing but it was them who stated rebalancing weapons across the board via a levelling system so they're not same level 1 through 30 as they currently are. Maybe they ditched that plan, devstreams are soundboards more than concrete confirmations as often their just openly discussing ideas but it certainly appealed as did proper MR allocation to weapons.