Allow new players to replace quitters on endless missions

[DEATHLOK]

A common practice for a special few is to join "endless" missions—especially Fissure missions—and extract after the first or second round, thereby forcing one or two more committed players to quit, as well. I have never understood why the game does not allow someone else to take their place. Perhaps no one wants to jump into the thick of things, but this happens most times I join an endless mission, anyway—the first round has already started! So why not let someone who wants to play join in at the start of later rounds? I'm clearly thinking of Defense and Interception missions here.

Another less fortunate practice involves playing five minutes of a Survival, then abandoning the team to sit at the extraction point and force the other three players to quit. I think this happens most "endless" Survival missions I play. Why not allow quitters to get out of the game almost immediately after hitting the extraction point, and allow new players to replace them?

If there is a way to troll a game, some people will do it, and do it consistently. Some people are just messed up that way. Design has to account for the worst in human nature, not just the way things "should" work.

Please revisit ideas that can curb trolling endless missions, so those of us who honestly enjoy the game can have a fair chance to play.

I realize someone might really freak out if they end up joining a Defense mission at wave 60, instead of 1. Behavior tracking has to first define what leaving "early" is. I realize this is not an easy thing to fix, but you guys can come up with something that works. "Endless" missions should last more than five minutes.

Edited January 29, 2017 by DEATHLOK

[Varacal]

7 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

if there is a way to troll a game, some people will do it, and do it consistently. Some people are just messed up that way. Design has to account for the worst in human nature, not just the way things "should" work.

i play at an old laptop, i cant play for it for very long or else it starts slowing down then later it shuts down, also im also not sure about our connections since there are sometimes quick dc's so i dont tend to stay for very long, which is why i most of the time i avoid survival, now that is my case, i dont know about the others, but please dont assume that people do this just to troll people, if you want a "dedicated" endless mission group, then maybe just go recruit some people instead of depending on pubs

[DEATHLOK]

If you can't play endless missions, why play them at all, or why not play them solo? Otherwise. you're forcing three other people to accept your hardware problems as their own.

The most obvious cause is most often the correct cause. Or are pubs supposed to be a cesspool of boorish behavior?

[Kuestenjung]

11 minutes ago, Varacal said:

i play at an old laptop, i cant play for it for very long or else it starts slowing down then later it shuts down, also im also not sure about our connections since there are sometimes quick dc's so i dont tend to stay for very long, which is why i most of the time i avoid survival, now that is my case, i dont know about the others, but please dont assume that people do this just to troll people, if you want a "dedicated" endless mission group, then maybe just go recruit some people instead of depending on pubs

Same goes for you. If you know about your problem and you are still playing pubs then I can go as far and saying you are sabotaging other players.

@OP: I agree with you however when there is a host migration, new people can join the party. I think DE should implement a feature to allow joining games even after the first goal was achieved.

[Stratego89]

No one wants to join into a random endless mission one wave before everyone leaves.

No one wants to join into a random endless mission where the enemies are already at a crazy level.

 

There's way more reasons against this idea than there are for, sadly.

[Hemmo67]

if i need 30 traces to make radiant i will and most likely do 1 or 2 rounds of endless fissure because it's quicker than do something like capture spy or whatever twice

why do people have a problem if squads don't always stay 5 full rotations <_>

[Gweredith]

I keep wishing for this almost on a daily basis. But, it is impossible to make it work. First, the relic bonuses will mismatch with the rest of the group. Imagine joining a wave 15 defense with higher level mobs and people who already have their bonuses boosting their affinity/resource gain. Second, if you join a mission that is already "halfway" (10-15waves), higher chances that you would be there for just another 5-10 waves before the group disbands, leaving you with only a relic or two open.

On the side note, I remember one of the devs mentioning that they would add some kind of extraction for survival missions, so that people wouldn't have to sit at extraction and be useless/ waste their time waiting for others to come.

[Varacal]

why are you guys even looking for more committed players in pubs? its public, anyone can join, whether they like can play as long, or they cant, like i said, if you want a more dedicated group, then dont go on pubs, its not anyone's obligation to stay because someone wants to stay longer, so no, its not sabotaging runs for other players, and like i said, thats the reason i dont do much survival, only when im forced to [clearing to advance to next tileset]

1 minute ago, Hemmo67 said:

why do people have a problem if squads don't always stay 5 full rotations <_>

thats what i want to know too, especially ones who are complaining when it happen in pubs

[ChuckMaverick]

It happens more for fissure missions as often an endless mission is the only one available for that era at the time.

If you want more control over your mission than simply not being griefed by your squadmates, then form a pre-made.

And no, wanting to extract at 5 minutes/waves is not griefing.

[DEATHLOK]

1 hour ago, Hemmo67 said:

if i need 30 traces to make radiant i will and most likely do 1 or 2 rounds of endless fissure because it's quicker than do something like capture spy or whatever twice

why do people have a problem if squads don't always stay 5 full rotations <_>

You can do that solo. You don't need to wreck the game for three other players because you want 30 traces. I can solo 20 waves easy, and I suck. I'm sure you'd do better than me.

The greater question is why you might have a problem with someone replacing you when you don't want to play. Is it equally important to you that the other three players can't finish their game?

[DEATHLOK]

1 hour ago, ChuckMaverick said:

And no, wanting to extract at 5 minutes/waves is not griefing.

According to you. That is just your opinion. You do not set the standard for everyone else.

And, just like the last guy, I simply must ask why you have a problem with someone replacing you, if you don't want to play?

More and more, I'm picking up on a sense of entitlement reassuring far too many that their own needs and desires are more important than those of everyone else combined. And that's just sick.

Edited January 29, 2017 by DEATHLOK

[deothor]

10 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

And, just like the last guy, I simply must ask why you have a problem with someone replacing you, if you don't want to play?

Their only problem is:

 

They HAVE TO disagree. That's some kind of disease on this forum.

"Hey look, this guy gave quite decent argument.. MUST. HAVE. TO. DISAGREE. WITH. HIM NOW."

[DEATHLOK]

2 hours ago, Varacal said:

why are you guys even looking for more committed players in pubs?

I'm not talking about anyone playing for an hour, two hours, or four hours. No one would expect to find that on a public match.

Outside of Alerts, which everyone rushes—myself included—it is reasonable to expect an endless mission to at least hit the first C rotation. It's a reasonable expectation, given the mechanics of the game. It is "endless," after all. If you don't want endless, there are other game modes.

I am very clearly describing "endless" missions as being more than one person's selfish desire to play five minutes and leave three other players in the lurch, just because he thinks it is funny or because feels he has every right to do so and a desire to prove it. I'm talking about having a modicum of social bearing and common sense.

When one guy waits until the very last split-second to pull out of the match, he is clearly doing so to hurt the community. I would love for someone to come along and rationally explain why this behavior needs to be a continued and formative practice in Warframe.

Above all, I'm interested in a reasonable explanation as to why it is so important to some here that quitters can't be replaced, why games have to be ruined on one single person's account.

Edited January 29, 2017 by DEATHLOK

[DEATHLOK]

Just now, deothor said:

Their only problem is:

 

They HAVE TO disagree. That's some kind of disease on this forum.

"Hey look, this guy gave quite decent argument.. MUST. HAVE. TO. DISAGREE. WITH. HIM NOW."

I love you, man! You have made my morning.

[Varacal]

40 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

According to you. That is just your opinion. You do not set the standard for everyone else.

And, just like the last guy, I simply must ask why you have a problem with someone replacing you, if you don't want to play?

please point out where we said we have a problem with someone replacing us?

[ChuckMaverick]

55 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

2 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

And no, wanting to extract at 5 minutes/waves is not griefing.

According to you. That is just your opinion. You do not set the standard for everyone else.

No, it's not just my opinion, DE agrees with me as well. If leaving at 5 minutes/waves was griefing, why do we get the option to do so?

57 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

And, just like the last guy, I simply must ask why you have a problem with someone replacing you, if you don't want to play?

I haven't said anywhere that I have a problem with replacements in endless missions, or that I'm a player who leaves early, that's just you assuming those things.

58 minutes ago, DEATHLOK said:

More and more, I'm picking up on a sense of entitlement reassuring far too many that their own needs and desires are more important than those of everyone else combined. And that's just sick.

I agree, but you seem to be one of those entitled people who feel that your desires should take precedence. If someone only wants to do 5 waves of defence, who are you to force them to do more?

49 minutes ago, deothor said:

Their only problem is:

They HAVE TO disagree. That's some kind of disease on this forum.

"Hey look, this guy gave quite decent argument.. MUST. HAVE. TO. DISAGREE. WITH. HIM NOW."

Nope, if the OP had simply made the suggestion to allow replacements I would have had no problem.

But demonising others simply because they want to play a different way to you? That's not cool.

[DEATHLOK]

I'm demonizing trolls. And that is entirely cool. Because they are trolls. You're not a troll, right? Why are you upset? Why protect practices destructive to the game and community?

It really makes no logical sense.

Let's not propagates outrageous claims that I'm calling everyone who has a bad Internet connection or a need to use the restroom a troll.

Your twisting of the argument does not distract from the reality that you are actually defending someone's right to wreck a game by making the false claim that I'm asking they be held hostage and forced to participate in longer missions. Why invent such fantasy? I never wrote that. Anywhere. Why is it so important to you that one person be able to wreck games whenever they want? Because you think it is their right to do so? Because someone dared suggest they not do so?

I think quitters should be allowed to quit. Quit a lot. Quit every mission early. But those left behind, who are actually trying to play the game, should be able to replace you.

The only ones who would be upset are the trolls who have to find some other way to wreck games.

Edited January 29, 2017 by DEATHLOK

[ChuckMaverick]

Did you actually read anything I posted?

The only thing I have objected to is your idea that players who want to leave a public endless mission at the first rotation are 'doing it wrong' and that their behaviour is tantamount to trolling or griefing. As soon as extraction is available, that is a valid choice, and obviously sanctioned as such by DE by the very fact that the option even exists.

I am in no way defending actual trolls and griefers, I sincerely hope each and every one of them gets perma-banned, and players should report their behaviour whenever they experience it.

I also have no problem with a replacement option, as I have already stated in earlier posts.

If a way can be found to make it work effectively and avoid potential pitfalls then I'm all for it.

 

[DEATHLOK]

I never once said that everyone who leaves a mission early is a troll. Not once. Not even by mistake. I was always very clear in saying that a few people are leaving matches early or at the last split-second to troll the community. Now, if you care to cast doubt upon that notion, then this is another matter entirely.

I suppose I should ask how carefully you read my posts.

At issue is the trolling of the game. This is not something I just dreamed up this morning. It is happening. Casting derision at me will not make the problem go away.

[ChuckMaverick]

15 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

The only thing I have objected to is your idea that players who want to leave a public endless mission at the first rotation are 'doing it wrong' and that their behaviour is tantamount to trolling or griefing.

 

10 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

I never once said that everyone who leaves a mission early is a troll. Not once. Not even by mistake.

 

21 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

23 hours ago, ChuckMaverick said:

And no, wanting to extract at 5 minutes/waves is not griefing.

According to you. That is just your opinion. You do not set the standard for everyone else.

Really?

I don't know why you're continuing to argue this point, it's distracting from the main suggestion in your OP which I've already stated could be a good idea if implemented well.

[DEATHLOK]

I'm certain there are any number of people around who would be glad to argue with you, yes?

[ChuckMaverick]

Joining a mission late needs some sort of an 'opt-in' option so that only players who are happy to join late get thrown in the deep end.

It would probably work best if DE adopted something like the endless fissure mission scaling bonuses so that you get more/better rewards the longer you stay. That way there would be a real benefit to joining late as you get better rewards from the 'start' of your mission.

[Shockwave-]

On 1/29/2017 at 10:36 AM, DEATHLOK said:

I'm not talking about anyone playing for an hour, two hours, or four hours. No one would expect to find that on a public match.

Outside of Alerts, which everyone rushes—myself included—it is reasonable to expect an endless mission to at least hit the first C rotation. It's a reasonable expectation, given the mechanics of the game. It is "endless," after all. If you don't want endless, there are other game modes.

I am very clearly describing "endless" missions as being more than one person's selfish desire to play five minutes and leave three other players in the lurch, just because he thinks it is funny or because feels he has every right to do so and a desire to prove it. I'm talking about having a modicum of social bearing and common sense.

When one guy waits until the very last split-second to pull out of the match, he is clearly doing so to hurt the community. I would love for someone to come along and rationally explain why this behavior needs to be a continued and formative practice in Warframe.

Above all, I'm interested in a reasonable explanation as to why it is so important to some here that quitters can't be replaced, why games have to be ruined on one single person's account.

There would have to be a choice when joining a public mission, but how would that work. I don't mind joining prior to the first reward but if DE forced me to join AFTER the 1st reward I'd have a huge problem with it. I don't want to miss out my own endless fun and if I join an in-progress mission then people are going to leave after 25 minutes (say they want the upgraded relic) and I'm stuck at 20 minutes and miss it. I also don't want to play without the upgraded bonuses. Anyway you slice it, that mission is ending earlier for me than anyone else, and many many people don't want to join a shortened mission.

Even if there was a choice why would I want to join a shortened endless mission when I can start at the beginning, have easier enemies, and get the same rewards? I can't have the extra bonuses that others get without earning it (like bonus affinity, etc), so who would chose to do that even if DE did implement it with a checkbox to choose? Seems like a lot of Dev work for a feature almost nobody would opt to use.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Shockwave-

[ChuckMaverick]

2 hours ago, Shockwave- said:

Even if there was a choice why would I want to join a shortened endless mission when I can start at the beginning, have easier enemies, and get the same rewards? I can't have the extra bonuses that others get without earning it (like bonus affinity, etc), so who would chose to do that even if DE did implement it with a checkbox to choose? Seems like a lot of Dev work for a feature almost nobody would opt to use.

 

I don't see a problem with players inheriting the current level of bonuses if they join a mission late, it's just trading increased difficulty for increased rewards.

[Snib]

A few weeks back there was a patch that would let players join at late waves. One of the rare times I wasn't solo in a pubbed endless fissure past the second round even though, as usual, all my original team mates had left. Was fun, sadly it was hotfixed out within a day. I'm not sure why DE doesn't allow it, in fact they even recently shortened the time you have to join an endless fissure in progress. Oh well...

As to trolling/griefing: Everybody can play as they want but let's be a real, a lot are choosing endless because they can more easily afk in there and then instantly extract without having to move a meter. The joys of pubs. Forces me to bring a kill frame that can easily nuke the map solo also in later levels - which in turn leads to other people making threads calling bringing such frames griefing. Can't have your cake and eat it, too, boys and girls.

tl;dr: +1 to the suggestion, just add a checkbox "allow join in progress" next to the play button, but sadly DE seems to be moving in the opposite direction so it's unlikely to happen.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Snib