Why Conclave Sucks and How To Fix It: ONE CHANGE ONLY

[Xaxma]

If you ask any competitive player from any shooter, they'll all tell you things like accuracy and raw gameplay mechanics are secondary to what actually prevails: strategy.

When all the pro players have had their mechanics so finely tuned, it leaves little room for improvement in things like reflexes and accuracy because the human mind and your input into a keyboard literally has physical limitations. At the end of the day, what actually prevails is your ability to predict the enemy's actions, perhaps even before they think to do them. That's the only way you can begin to react faster. 

So, don't tell me Warframe PvP isn't already a rock-paper-scissors match as it is. With as chaotic of a movement system as it has with poor internet optimization, you're left with whoever has host advantage and whoever has the spammiest gun. Give me a break. 

Edited March 22, 2017 by Xaxma

[--.69-JP3GMD-69.nVbs.--]

have you ever seen quake?

 

If what you are implying is true than get spammiest gun and host advantage and send 10 pics of being top1 out of RC :)

[Witchydragon]

8 hours ago, Xaxma said:

If you ask any competitive player from any shooter, they'll all tell you things like accuracy and raw gameplay mechanics are secondary to what actually prevails: strategy.

Oh, yeah so basically there's no reason to play a shooter, or brawler, or RTS because all it boils down to is strategy. 

8 hours ago, Xaxma said:

At the end of the day, what actually prevails is your ability to predict the enemy's actions, perhaps even before they think to do them.

So all flavor and fun should be taken out at the expense of making 'strategy' more 'prevalent'? Being able to jump is the sole reason that there's 'no strategy'? The game is rock paper scissors because 'there's no strategic value'? Everyone wants to play the same Overwatch reskin that's based entirely on map timings, team composition and mind games rather than mechanical ability and individual confrontations? 

Player movement is predictable. Anything a human does can become predictable, and it's not impossible to predict where players are going to be when you get a grasp of their tendencies and observe their situations. Spawn points are not predictable, spawn times are not predictable, and keeping track of 7 other players in a match is basically impossible. But that has nothing to do with jumping.

What you're looking for is predictability, and the potential for a competitive gamemode to arise from Conclave. That's not going to happen in any FFA game with more than 2 players per match. That's not going to happen in Team Deathmatch with random spawns. That's not going to happen in Capture the Cephalon as long as people are rewarded for not confronting each other. But that also won't happen when only the interesting part of the game (y'know, the movement, which a lot of people enjoy) is removed. 

Jumping is fun, and you're applying the wrong treatment to the problem.

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

23 hours ago, Xaxma said:

If you ask any competitive player from any shooter, they'll all tell you things like accuracy and raw gameplay mechanics are secondary to what actually prevails: strategy.

When all the pro players have had their mechanics so finely tuned, it leaves little room for improvement in things like reflexes and accuracy because the human mind and your input into a keyboard literally has physical limitations. At the end of the day, what actually prevails is your ability to predict the enemy's actions, perhaps even before they think to do them. That's the only way you can begin to react faster. 

So, don't tell me Warframe PvP isn't already a rock-paper-scissors match as it is. With as chaotic of a movement system as it has with poor internet optimization, you're left with whoever has host advantage and whoever has the spammiest gun. Give me a break. 

Step over into the office of CFE Discord and myself and we will demonstrate how it is about counters and match up. I have a gun that if I spam it, I do more damage to myself. That's a lose situation for me. 

[(PSN)Flatulent_Draco]

DE should first put the old agility meter back into PvP and see how it goes from there. Arguably Warframe PvP is on my top 10 worst list just due to how stupid it is to see an entire lobby just bullet jumping everywhere waiting for someone to stop moving before taking a shot or two. The longest amount of time I clocked in a match for someone to get a kill in a bullet jumping lobby for me was 5 minutes and 26 seconds... boring, and it's become a regular occurrence to where my buddies and I start our own lobbies to just get the daily bounties done to gradually get our weapon skins from conclave rewards.

Sure I am guilty of bullet jumping but primarily I do it when two or more are after me, when I'm at low health or to just bore other bullet jumpers if need be.

Edited March 28, 2017 by (PS4)Benjamin_Draco

[Scarecrow]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Benjamin_Draco said:

The longest amount of time I clocked in a match for someone to get a kill in a bullet jumping lobby for me was 5 minutes and 26 seconds... boring, and it's become a regular occurrence to where my buddies and I start our own lobbies to just get the daily bounties done to gradually get our weapon skins from conclave rewards.

Sounds like just personal incompetence, seeing how most players can very easily deal with players that have above average movement. 

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

13 hours ago, (PS4)Benjamin_Draco said:

DE should first put the old agility meter back into PvP and see how it goes from there. Arguably Warframe PvP is on my top 10 worst list just due to how stupid it is to see an entire lobby just bullet jumping everywhere waiting for someone to stop moving before taking a shot or two. The longest amount of time I clocked in a match for someone to get a kill in a bullet jumping lobby for me was 5 minutes and 26 seconds... boring, and it's become a regular occurrence to where my buddies and I start our own lobbies to just get the daily bounties done to gradually get our weapon skins from conclave rewards.

Sure I am guilty of bullet jumping but primarily I do it when two or more are after me, when I'm at low health or to just bore other bullet jumpers if need be.

Take a look at this player. It's one of my good friends. You can see how he tracks with a sniper and tears people apart. 

Snipers have no issue at all hitting targets when they practice at it. There is always a way to destroy someone in this game if you practice enough. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by (XB1)Aeries Vendetta

[(PSN)Flatulent_Draco]

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 3:47 AM, Pariahdragon said:

Sounds like just personal incompetence, seeing how most players can very easily deal with players that have above average movement. 

Yeah I was butthurt lol, I'll quite down. Though Lunaro is definitely not my forte hands down.

[(PSN)Flatulent_Draco]

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 6:24 AM, (Xbox One)Aeries Vendetta said:

Take a look at this player. It's one of my good friends. You can see how he tracks with a sniper and tears people apart. 

Snipers have no issue at all hitting targets when they practice at it. There is always a way to destroy someone in this game if you practice enough. 

Ok ok lol I'll shut up, I was particularly butthurt so no more whining from me.

[Nez-Kal]

...

Edited April 1, 2017 by Tangent-Valley
- I was Tired, and Upset, and said dumb things

[SevenLetterKWord]

4 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

So, I'm just going to say, after playing PvP for good portion of the day

Incredible! Yeah, I sure trust you to grasp the complex and dynamic mechanics of Conclave now.
You know, it is said that Bobby Fischer achieved his mastery of chess after playing "for good portion of the day", and that Gautama Buddha attained enlightenment after meditating "for good portion of two days".

4 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

I don't have the Standing to get good Stance Mods.

Is that so?
Because Conclave stance mods only cost 2000 standing, and they're available from the very first rank.
If you were really "playing PvP for good portion of the day", you should easily be able to afford many stances.

4 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Server lag after-image

In Warframe, hit detection is calculated client-side. There is no such thing as a "Server lag after-image".
Looks a lot like you're just taking complaints from other games and assuming they apply to Conclave.

4 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Face it.

"Face it"?
What am I facing?
An assertion made by an individual with neither experience nor credibility?
An assertion that sounds suspiciously like: "I'm used to steamrolling the incompetent opposition of PvE AI. Make Conclave more like that."

4 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

I honestly feel this is what Conclave needs to fit it into the Warframe style.

Sorry, what? What is this "Warframe style" of yours supposed to be?
Warframe's uniqueness derives strongly from its movement mechanics, which provide great flexibility and freedom.

You make it sound as if there's some limit to bullet jumping in PvE, when clearly there is not.
There is no mobility mechanic in Conclave that doesn't exist in PvE; bullet jumping is unlimited in Conclave because bullet jumping is unlimited in PvE.

Tell me, how is Conclave going to "fit in" when it already matches PvE movement mechanics exactly?

[Nez-Kal]

...

Edited April 1, 2017 by Tangent-Valley
- I was Tired, and Upset, and said dumb things

[NNKanell]

Conclave needs a system of ranked, tournaments, clan wars.
The conclave can not even win the arms and the frame (not including Excalibur, volts and mag).
Now there is no purpose to play in the conclave, and not what stamina it does not help.

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

5 minutes ago, Kanelldragon said:

Conclave needs a system of ranked, tournaments, clan wars.
The conclave can not even win the arms and the frame (not including Excalibur, volts and mag).
Now there is no purpose to play in the conclave, and not what stamina it does not help.

I put a post up earlier asking for a de hosted conclave tournement 

[squidd]

I agree with Kannell, but I don't know how I feel about a developer hosted competitive event. Conclave might get more negative attention than ever before, even further flooding the feedback forum with copies of this thread.

2 hours ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Conclave needs Mobility changes. FACE IT. Because when someone like me can give up on shooting, and just BulletJump in and around fights nicking and stealing Oro, and end up in second place, again, by BUTTON MASHING, there's something wrong.

It sounds like you've played with players who are also new to the game, possibly any competitive PC shooter in general, and have trouble successfully landing bullets on even somewhat mobile targets. In that environment, that playstyle will be effective if you just want to be an elusive, slippery snake, and that is perfectly fine. But I promise you, bullet jump into bullet jump into bullet jump into bullet jump will not secure much success in higher skilled lobbies where players can easily take advantage of your predictable movement. This is why regular players don't see anything wrong with it.

This is the root issue Conclave faces in its position alongside the popular PvE game mode: The enormous amount of players that just want their cosmetics and collectibles for their completionist, farmer PvE fashion outnumber those who play Conclave to actively take part in epic space ninja vs space ninja duels and carnage. The skill resulting from Warframe's fluid mix of gunplay and mobility falls on deaf ears in PvE, where the goal is to clear rooms as quickly as possible to get your goodie bag at the end of the mission. Maybe press X on a console here and there, wait for a timer, or something like that in the meantime. Conclave requires mastery of these disciplines because you can bet that your opponents have trained to fight with every tool available to them, as in any solid PvP environment.

Players often seem to walk into Conclave wishing to receive their rewards as quickly and easily as possible. They race through Teshin's syndicate tiers (and out of recruit conditioning, designed specifically for them) to do so, and complain that they cannot compete in such a hostile environment. They ignore their own potential movement capabilities to chase, position and ambush targets and immediately jump to "this game is too hard because nobody can hit such fast targets", which is not true. For all these threads about how impossible Conclave is due to "bullet jumps are OP" or something like that, there sure are literally zero threads in the Players Helping Players forum asking how to learn or deal with these mechanics. In fact, the only questions we get there are "what's the fastest way to grind multiplayer" and "which weapon will make the game easiest for me". It is for this reason that shooting down all threads like this is so easy to do. You suggest ways to make the game mode easier by removing aspects from Warframe itself that make it unique to other games. Why ruin such a complex, exciting game just so more players can satisfy their "completionist" urges easier?

Edited April 1, 2017 by squidd

[Nez-Kal]

...

Edited April 1, 2017 by Tangent-Valley
- I was Tired, and Upset, and said dumb things

[squidd]

18 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

Conclave is "One Way to Play". For Warframe, a game ALL about playing in different fashions, and completing objectives in different ways, this is frankly bologna.

If you don't play the "One" way, To bad for you, GTFO, is what players are faced with. (Cause not all of us can just "Git Gud")

 

Oh, and don't tell me about "You can play different ways with different frame", cause buddy, Ha ha haaaaa-No you can't. Conclave is "One way to Play", and THAT is why it's broken.

You are welcome to play however you like. Nobody is stopping you. Just refrain from complaining when you intentionally neglect your mechanical tools and get flattened by players who have trained to improve skill with all of these tools. This is how a player-versus-player system works. If you think otherwise, your mindset is what is broken.

Edited April 1, 2017 by squidd

[Nez-Kal]

...

Edited April 1, 2017 by Tangent-Valley
- I was Tired, and Upset, and said dumb things

[squidd]

8 minutes ago, Tangent-Valley said:

I understand these thing, but am not always skilled enough to play them through, or fall back when they fail.

I have played your Conclave.....and it is broken.

Your lack of skill makes Conclave broken? I've already been over that. I've checked Conclave statistics in your profile, and seriously question your understanding of what you claim to know, especially your perception of what makes a game broken.

What you are now doing is diluting the Conclave Feedback forum with an abundance of offensive words towards the game mode with a lack of extensive knowledge to back it up. I cannot agree with your claim to understand what you claim to; I think you need to train harder.

Edited April 1, 2017 by squidd

[(PSN)AtomicEyekon]

(Remove the ability to jump -)

But people who dislike conclave with a passion either hide or jump around like a crazy person to kill time  to get items through conclave  alerts.

[Stormdragon]

On 27/3/2017 at 9:01 PM, (PS4)Benjamin_Draco said:

DE should first put the old agility meter back into PvP and see how it goes from there.

It would result in the skill ceiling becoming higher and I'm sure that it's NOT what you are looking for. 

[(XBOX)Aeries Vendetta]

Those who are asking for mobility reduction have 1 or 2 things in common. 

1. They are selfish and don't want to try something hard. 

2. Haven't thought it through about how much easier it will be for the top players to destroy people if it's easier for the new players. 

[MechaHex]

How about remove warframes entirely?

like using the factions as classes and teams?

 

[Stormdragon]

2 hours ago, MechaHex said:

How about remove warframes entirely?

like using the factions as classes and teams?

 

sounds great! we could even make that in a brand new game mode where the grineer have to plant a bomb in one of 2 reactors on a corpus ship while corpus units try to kill them to prevent them from setting it and have to defuse the bomb if it gets planted.

We could take it further and make everyone start with the same weapons and get credits each round to buy improved weapons on the next one.

How did nobody ever think of such a game?

/s

Edited April 3, 2017 by -Stormdragon
typos and "/s" for clarification

[Witchydragon]

14 minutes ago, -Stormdragon said:

sounds great! we could even make that in a brand new game mode where the grineer have to plant a bomb in one of 2 reactors on a corpus ship while corpus units try to kill them to prevent them from setting it and have to defuse the bomb if it gets planted.

We could take it further and make everyone start with the same weapons and get credits each round to buy improved weapons on the next one.

How did nobody ever think of such a game?

they did, it's called call of duty

pls fact check before making a post