Limbo Rework Discussion and Feedback

[Rhundis]

Personally, I'm all for the Limbo changes. Granted Dodging in and out of the rift will take some getting used to. But overall the ability changes seem like a much needed fix to his playstyle. 

His Banish being able to hit multiple targets at once has been asked for many times and I'm glad it was added, not sure how it will affect allying players but we'll cross that bridge later.

Rift Surge being similar to Nova's MPrime is defenetly useful. The bonus spawn of a mini cataclysm for pushing affected individuals out of the rift is icing on the cake.

The Time Stop ability (name TBD) just reminds me of a really fun one off game I used to play called TimeShift. It's literally the same ability, spawn a bubble, pause everything inside, line it full of projectiles, unpause and watch the chaos.

And lastly Cataclysm, though I believe this one seems to be untouched though I'm hoping to have some better synergy with it.

[PsiWarp]

I'd say Late-March, Early-April (Fools) :)

There are key points they should address before release, such as Stasis' cap's severe penalty, built-in anti-troll measures in Banish, Rift Surge and Cataclysm bubbles for teammates to improve team-friendliness, transparency on how to use the Rift Plane (tooltips, hints, displayed banner), a way to detonate all Rift Surge mini-bubbles, etc.

However, the rework as shown is very good, as the degree of control Limbo has over his domain and any enemies within (and without) is drastically increased. The amount of new tactics and ability combinations will have me testing for days, not a moment of boredom in between.

[Silvus-Sol]

As a non-Limbo player, all I really want is to be able to pick up stuff while in the rift. So if they make that happen the rest is gravy.

[PsiWarp]

IMO when it comes to objects and the rift, especially while Banished, going up to something and pressing X should do whatever function the object is meant to while ending Banish early. It's just more fluid that way, instead of having to roll or backflip first.

[RistN]

On 6.3.2017. at 1:52 PM, Kyryo said:

I still don't understand the problem, i'll just give up XD Sorry. 

Problem is that you didn't even read topic before quoting it.You didn't even read the title for that matter.

[AbhijitSM]

Hello,

So we all know that DE has showcased the Limbo rework few devstreams ago & i am fairly excited about it. Just wanted to point a small possible flaw with how the first ability banish is going to work. Right now the way it works is that you can use it to banish a single target into the rift which can be a friend or foe. But with the upcoming changes it is going to be an aoe ability which will affect multiple targets when cast depending on the range you have. Now my concern with this is that this may cause a lot of unintentional outcomes. 

For example if you wanted to banish a team mate into the rift but there are multiple enemies in range as well then it will banish both friend & enemy which can get a little bit irritating especially if the enemy level is too high. I hope DE takes note of this & separate the 2 banish targets accordingly. My suggestion is we can make the first one a toggled ability like how Ivara's first ability works. Give us an option to switch whether to banish friend or enemy but not both at the same time.

Any suggestions from fellow tenno players are welcome :-)

Thanks & Regards

Abhijit

 

[Airwolfen]

You banish while the time in the rift has been stopped. Problem solved?

And if it functions like it does now it will also CC the enemies when you banish them.

[DhatZ]

I would prefer hold for single target, cause if you want only one you are probably already aiming for it. And there is option to toggle hold/use controlls for those who liek the opposite. Ideally the toggle should be per warframe in arsenal but I don't use it anyway.

[hukurokuju5]

warframe spotlight

[PsiWarp]

I hope they make it a smart-cast. In Devstream 88, Rebecca tried to banish the first enemy that ran to her after she started the survival (she missed :P), but it ended up making the Invalid Target sound. This means Banish still requires an initial target on your crosshairs to cast, unlike Equinox's Rest & Rage which just needs to target the ground near an enemy to cast.

Going from that, I would guess that:

1. Banish on the initial target determines if other guys in the AoE go in or out of the rift.
2. Banish on an enemy target only affects other enemies. Same with allies.

Why? Because that's one of the few ways to make AoE Banish less chaotic when it comes to managing who goes in & who goes out. Of course, you can always just have Stasis activated before you go on a Banish spree, saves you and your allies from being shot during the brief moment of confusion from going into the rift.

Also, I had low Power Range (49% from Cunning Drift + Narrow Minded) on that build, so either the AoE is incredibly big or is unaffected by Power Range mods because in the demo it had a pretty large radius.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

Its really unclear how it works yet. There's some hidden mechanics in play. If you cast banish on an enemy and the AoE covers a mixed group of banished and non-banished enemies, do they swap places? What if that same AoE also manages to snag some friendlies like a kubrow or another warframe? It sounds like a nightmare to control. Imagine banishing the operative in a defense sortie only to accidentally take a few stray enemies with you.

All I know is, when Limbo's rework comes out, people won't be banishing other players anymore to troll them. Instead, they'll be banishing entire enemy squads in one cast so nobody will be able to kill anything.

 

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

5 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

Also, I had low Power Range (49% from Cunning Drift + Narrow Minded) on that build, so either the AoE is incredibly big or is unaffected by Power Range mods because in the demo it had a pretty large radius.

My guess is its big like bigger than banishing more than 7 enemies at a time. The smaller cataclysm bubbles left behind by rift surge were affected by the 49% power range.

[AlaskanWolf]

was playing again last night a found another small but frustrating tweak that could be needed.

 

targeting priority for limbos melee should default to enemies in the rift with him. its frustrating to have a single target banished, and have the AI target a non banished enemy.

[ChameleonBro]

You should try and activate/deactivate color correction cause it makes quite the difference.

[ChameleonBro]

Honestly banishing a teammate around enemies is difficult either way, especially if they are moving around. Than you have a chance of Banishing only the enemy which would put you at risk, like this AoE Banish will help you at least get your teammate in to the rift regardless of whether you get an enemy as well. 

[ChameleonBro]

On 3/5/2017 at 5:45 PM, KazeUindo said:

This should have been done when Limbo was released IMHO. The Limbo Quest should have covered this. Either way I'm looking forward to Limbo's rework(however minor it may be). 

Just remembered; how it pops up in Kuva Siphons that you can press 5 to use operator. That can be put in place for Limbo but more transparent or on the side.

I wouldn't consider his rework to be minor but aaaight xD

[ChameleonBro]

So the upcoming Limbo rework is coming and it seems really promising. If it is executed right it might be one of the best reworks that we got in Warframe. But there are a few decisions DE wants to make, some of which they are unsure of, as well as some things they didn't mention but could be good changes.

As someone who has the most time played with Limbo (I believe around 39% or less, it's over 30% though) I am here to give my opinions and suggestions for those small decisions. There's not many of 'em so let's begin.

 

Entering the Rift energy cost

So now that entering the rift is Limbos passive DE were unsure wether it should drain energy or not upon using it. Personally I don't think it should, and here is why. 

  -Now that you can enter the Rift with a simple roll you'll be able to use it more efficiently than ever before which is a good thing. You'll be able to be very flashy and a lot more useful and better overall. But if the energy cost is implemented into this it will drain our energy a lot more and restrict us from being able to do these quick flashy escapes and entrances. Switching quickly between each plane to do different things. With the energy cost it'll be a lot more difficult to utilize this "ability" and if you somehow end up without energy (worst case scenario) you won't be able to escape alive since you'll be unable to use it.

Speaking of abilities...

 

  -It's not a normal ability, it's a "passive". Why would you want to make a passive drain energy ? If it does so it shouldn't even be a passive ability.

 

The Stasis limit and punishment

 

We all know that Stasis has a limit on the number of enemies and projectiles allowed (if you are interested I have a post talking about it and why it is very concerning). The problem is the punishment, all of your abilities collapse and you are unable to enter the Rift for a short period of time.

Doing this would seriously hurt Limbo, I don't see a real reason as to why he should be punished this bad when there are other frames (a lot tankier at that) that can do smilar things to Stasis, aka Rhino Stomp, Divine Spears, Avalanche etc. The problem is that the Limit can be exceeded before we can react fast enough to shut it down ourselves. Imagine a high level infested mission with infested chargers swarming your Cataclysm exceeding your own limit before you can do anything.

  -If you are going to keep the punishment regardless than consider not making it this extreme, especially for a frame as squishy as Limbo

 

  -Maybe give us a countdown, similar to Nidus when he is in his undying state, when we exceed the limit giving us a chance to shut it down ourselves before  it collapses. Basically when we exceed the limit show us a 5 second counter warning us that if we don't shut down Stasis in that time limit our rift will collapse.

 NOTE: We don't know how big the limit is going to be so we don't know if there are even going to be any real issues with Stasis and the limit.

 

Hacking Consoles, enemy limitations when they are Banished 

 

I think everyone can agree on this, Limbo being able to hack consoles and interact with Life Support while in the rift is something everyone would like to be brought back. So why not in this format.

 

  -Give us the ability to Banish consoles, but only for the player that banished it so that other team members can hack them in order to avoid trolling. So if a console is Banished our teammate can hack it regardless of wther it is Banished or not. I mean if enemies that are Banished can hack consoles why not give us the ability to do so as well. Which brings me to the next point.

  -Banishing enemies makes them unable to hack consoles and sound the alarms. I think it would only make sense to do so. Plus it would add a lot more versatility and strategy to Limbo.

 

Other suggestions in case these changes aren't made

 

  -If he does keep his energy drain upon entering the Rift, make it a mechanic not a passive. A replacement for this passive could be anything

My suggestion: If Limbo were to get hit and die, instead of dying enter the Rift and put every enemy that was in the Rift outside of it into the material plane.

or

 -Reduce the energy cost of entering the Rift to a manageable amount where you won't lose a lot of Energy upon entering and exiting the rift in a succession.

 

These are my suggestions on small changes that could benefit Limbo in small but cool ways. I can get annoyed by small details and mistakes(such as Banished enemies hacking consoles) but I also hell'a appreciate small details.

Give your opinions on this topic as well, I want to see what everyone else thinks

=D

Edited March 8, 2017 by ChameleonBro

[Infinitewin]

Have the devs also listened to the community's complaints how you are stopped to interact with objects while in the rift? I hope they allow you to pick up collectables and still activate switches (while they are in the Rift through Cataclysm). Have they said anything about the Stagger from QT? Maybe that Pain Threshold will work with that stagger? Only reason to use Pain Threshold is to use it with Javlok altfire in close quarters.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Infinitewin

[Infinitewin]

doublepost

Edited March 9, 2017 by Infinitewin
wrong post

[Volinus7]

Doesn't seem like rework help with his Nullifier allergy, ZERO expectation and hype.

Don't even compare cataclysm to snowglobe, frost can globe and face tank nullifier limbo can't, versatility is on different level.

Smell like saryn rework again when compare with excal volt or frost rework there's no balance between them at all. Poster boys always get special treatment it seems.

Edited March 9, 2017 by Volinus7

[PsiWarp]

1 minute ago, Volinus7 said:

Doesn't seem like rework help with his Nullifier allergy, ZERO expectation and hype.

The Nullifier might make your Cataclysm implode the moment the bubbles collide, but max range Cata + Rift Surge make many many Rift bubbles wherever enemies stood. Or just Rift Dash again after touching a Nully bubble.

We also don't know how the Nullifier's drone rework will interact with the rift or not.

[W0wRUUD]

6 minutes ago, Volinus7 said:

Doesn't seem like rework help with his Nullifier allergy, ZERO expectation and hype.

That doesn't seem like much of a reason to disregard the rework. There are still plenty of reasons why the rework is a good thing for Limbo. That one apple hardly seems worthy enough to spoil the whole barrel.

[Volinus7]

8 minutes ago, W0wRUUD said:

That doesn't seem like much of a reason to disregard the rework. There are still plenty of reasons why the rework is a good thing for Limbo. That one apple hardly seems worthy enough to spoil the whole barrel.

Some frames entire 4 abilities do nothing to Nullifier while some frames can use abilities to face tank them from outside, where's balance? Nullifier is the major factor that divides frames apart, if the rework doesn't fix it then it has no value to me.

[brainjelly2g0]

1 hour ago, Volinus7 said:

Some frames entire 4 abilities do nothing to Nullifier while some frames can use abilities to face tank them from outside, where's balance? Nullifier is the major factor that divides frames apart, if the rework doesn't fix it then it has no value to me.

Nullifiers are nothing to a skilled player. Sure, Limbo can't face-tank his way through them, but thats not my preferred method anyways. Precisely two frames are effective tanks without abilities(Inaros and Nidus, don't give me that crap about Frost). 

The problem I sense with you is that you see Limbo as lone abilities. 1 2 3 and 4. I assume you feel the same way about all of the frames. That's why you namedropped Frost as a good frame, since Snowglobe is a great ability. However, a good frame is one whose abilities aren't powerful on their own, but have additive ability. To me, Limbo is 1+2+3+4= 10. His abilities are tools, rather than weapons.

And Cataclysm is infinitely better than snowglobe, purely because it's based on duration, rather than health.

[PsiWarp]

With the amount of Limbos to flood the System once his rework arrives, I do hope the devs won't overlook that Limbos can Banish other Limbos to bring em in/out of the rift. Now that Banish is AoE, I would hate to be on the receiving end of unwanted plane shifts from another Limbo player when I least want or expect it.