Enough With The Knockdowns

[Estred]

Making Runners actually throw you back was stupid in my opinion. It seems most enemies now are focused on taking away a players ability to well.... play. This isn't hard it's frustrating. I have now lost count the number of times in group or solo that I have been watching Warframe play itself for about 10-20 seconds (providing I haven't died in this time frame).

 

Knockdowns are great, on a few select units.

- Ancient Distruptors*

- Ancient Healers

- Grineer Scorpions

- Maybe Grineer Heavy Troops (Bombard/Flamer/Gunner)

- Shockwave MOA

 

However they are not needed on the following.

- Grineer Rollers

- Runners

- Toxic Ancients

- Grineer Sheild Units

 

Rather each enemy should offer different situations I will elaborate to a few here.

Grinner Rollers: Just remove the CC they should be annoying damagers that are hard to hit, not capable of locking you down which 3-4 can do.

Grineer Shield Units: The rate at which they can knock you down is ridiculous. The shield is annoying to get around already, make them fire from around the shield without exposing themselves easily.

Runners: The biggest addition to the annoyance pool. These guys come in waves of about 40 of them at a time. If they knock you down like disruptor do, it's impossible to play the game. Leave them as a Stagger.

Toxic Ancients: Rather than knockdown have them throw globs of poison. These aren't clouds but rather slow moving projectiles mean we have to dodge.

 

A player should have to adapt to enemies right now enemies are built to screw a players ability to even play the game. This is not good design and it's called fake difficulty. It makes combat a "I kill you before you touch me" kind of combat. Given the only way to combat Knockdown is the rare mod Handspring, this isn't really a good form of design.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Estred

[Zhoyzu]

i think i support this. gonna put some more thought into it and be back in the morning.

[Dreiii]

You are a space ninja with skills,weapons,melee weapons, a sentinel that shoots everything you shoot at.

 

You can sprint, wall run, flip,slide, air slide, backflip, roll, jump into a tumble, most probably the best thing to do to counter a ninja is to take away his ability to have alot of movement.

 

With everything you have at your disposal, and the enemy's abilities to actually give you a hard time is only knockback i suggest you avoid it, if you are having problems cause you get swarmed? or get mobbed you are doing something wrong. you can parkour to get out of sticky situations you can use cryo rounds to counter enemy movement ( which i think is the best thing to do) Like seriously man they had this knockback thing for months and you are the first guy i have seen to complain about it,

[Satwo]

the only thing i agree with is toxic ancients lobbing poison bombs. everything else is either just repeat whining or ignorance.

allow me to elaborate.

grineer rollers wouldnt be annoying if they didnt stagger you. they do so little damage to begin with. as for the obvious 'well then just boost their damage', to which i would say 'do you really want impossible to hit chargers biting your ankles in groups of 4 with no cluster limitations? youll be dead within seconds'

shield grineers already shoot around their shields, so your arguement is invalid. want to not get knocked down by them? roll away. its as simple as double-tapping shift and S.

RUNNERS DO NOT KNOCK YOU DOWN. period. im going to go out on a limb and say youre color blind, because only leapers can knock you down. they also take a whopping 1000% damage when leaping at you (3000% if melee or melee-oriented damage), so there should be no reason you cant kill them. only suggestion here would possibly be a slight model change on leapers to help them stand out more for color blind players so they can tell them apart from runners.

ancient healers dont do jack for damage. they fall under the same thing as grineer rollers.

im going to throw out there that ALL KNOCKDOWNS ARE EXTREMELY EASY TO AVOID IF YOU HAVE AN ICE MOD IN AT LEAST ONE OF YOUR WEAPONS!!!

[Endrance]

Knockdowns are great, on a few select units.

- Ancient Healers

 

However they are not needed on the following.

- Ancient Healers

Go to sleep, you are drunk.

 

Knockback is only a problem if you can't handle distance measures.

 

Since i got Dethcube, rollers are no problem since they die with vaporize before they can hit me. Runners are squishy as hell.

 

Grinner with shield, just jump melee, problem solved.

 

Ancient Healer/Toxic/Disrupter are hell slow, and slower if you have any freeze mod.

Shockwave MoA is the one you should be more careful, since it's an AoE, but still, just get behind a box, and problem solved.

 

I really don't see the need to reduce the knockback mob/effective

[Neuhnee]

ROFL

 

You get knocked down?

 

- Ancient Distruptors - They're slow, stay out of their range

- Ancient Healers - They're slow stay out of their range

- Grineer Scorpions - They're super squishy, shoot them before they get in range

- Maybe Grineer Heavy Troops (Bombard/Flamer/Gunner) They're slow, stay out of their range

- Shockwave MOA - They stop all together and do a liitle dance for a few seconds before they knockdown. Walk, don't run, away

- Grineer Rollers - A quick jump attack and these guys go pop

- Runners - They stop all together and do a liitle dance for a few seconds before they knockdown. Walk, don't run, away

- Ancient Healers - wait, you just said you *liked* them having a knockdown o.0

- Toxic Ancients - They're slow, stay out of their range

- Grineer Sheild Units - they're super squishy, shoot them before they get in range

[Tempera]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/76334-your-enemies-suck/'>*whistles*

[Leyden]

actually shorter kwockdown on some units like roller-ball could be great, once i  got stuck with 2-3 ennemy who just didn't stop knocking me, for like 2 min

[XtrimeZ]

Maybe they could add system like Rage engine has (GTA 4, Max Payne), when you are shot or knocked down you still have opportunity to aim and shot at some point. 

 For GTA 4 it was a little bit silly and funny to watch, but for Warframe they could make something similar, but way better.

[Dreiii]

:) Grineer shield users must not have knockback/down, haha. 

 

I want to see what he thinks would happen if a shield that size and that heavy with a combat trained individual like a grineer soldier with more strength of the average man would do if he bashes you with it. 

 

Were you thinking of something that goes poof? :))) or maybe a donk sound that moves you like a feet or 2.

[Taranis49]

:) Grineer shield users must not have knockback/down, haha. 

 

I want to see what he thinks would happen if a shield that size and that heavy with a combat trained individual like a grineer soldier with more strength of the average man would do if he bashes you with it. 

 

Were you thinking of something that goes poof? :))) or maybe a donk sound that moves you like a feet or 2.

 

It's actually kinda hard to knock someone down if they're expecting the hit.

 

Additionally, it might be a valid point if tenno weren't strong enough to throw knives hard enough to bodily pick guys up and pin them to walls. Nevermind that frames such as Frost or Rhino are like, twice the size of that puny little shield lancer. :-P

 

In the case of units like shield lancers/disruptors, it also doesn't help that the attack is basically hitscan, even if you're cloaked and move behind them before they finish their swing, the attack can still somehow automagically connect.

 

I haven't been downed by any of the enemies on that list in quite a while, in the case of some of them? Never. They're still tedious.

 

Biggest gripe I have with Disruptors is that the hulking things are somehow totally silent, even when stampeding over a tile floor. Given the tendency of the game to spawn things behind you and the simple fact that the primary sense that alerts someone to danger is hearing, it's kinda broken.

 

As I said in the "Grineer suck" thread; slapping the controls out of a player's hands is the kind of tactic I expect from a five year old.

[Dreiii]

It's actually kinda hard to knock someone down if they're expecting the hit.

 

Additionally, it might be a valid point if tenno weren't strong enough to throw knives hard enough to bodily pick guys up and pin them to walls. Nevermind that frames such as Frost or Rhino are like, twice the size of that puny little shield lancer. :-P

 

In the case of units like shield lancers/disruptors, it also doesn't help that the attack is basically hitscan, even if you're cloaked and move behind them before they finish their swing, the attack can still somehow automagically connect.

 

I haven't been downed by any of the enemies on that list in quite a while, in the case of some of them? Never. They're still tedious.

 

Biggest gripe I have with Disruptors is that the hulking things are somehow totally silent, even when stampeding over a tile floor. Given the tendency of the game to spawn things behind you and the simple fact that the primary sense that alerts someone to danger is hearing, it's kinda broken.

 

As I said in the "Grineer suck" thread; slapping the controls out of a player's hands is the kind of tactic I expect from a five year old.

Hmmmm i agree with some of your points, i'd have to disagree wiith the whole movement thing though, use tennos are given a set of skills ( we are freakin space ninjas) having the ability to parkour almost everywhere by itself is already a big margin if you compare use to the grineer BUT alongside that we have abilities that differ on which frame we use, and weapons, and a robotic pet that floats everywhere we go.

 

the cheapest way to beat us is to basically remove movement which even then we have a sentinel shooting at them while we are down.

I dont mind knockbacks i really dont.But yes the house of a monster Ancients do need some sort of stomping sound because they are more stealthier than us tenno space ninjas in some occasions.

[PettiTheYeti]

I disagree in the sense that less enemies should have a knock down skill. It keeps things interesting, especially if a laser MOA knocks you down when you are trying to run away, and something runs over and starts pounding you into the ground, for example. You really feel the pressure in that situation.

 

However, I DO think that there needs to be a timer on the knock downs a player can sustain per minute. In defense, usually against some of the same laser MOA's I mentioned, you will get two or three of them lasering you down, and you can't do anything because the next laser hits before you regain control from the animation picking you back up from the ground. Repeat ad naseum until dead.

 

A knockdown every 15 seconds or something should be implemented, not letting a player get knocked down before getting up.

[Tsukinoki]

What they should do is add diminishing returns on all stuns and knock downs.

Example:

You are stunned/staggered by a roller and are staggered for the normal duration.

A second roller, or the same one, hits you within a few seconds and it stuns you again, but only for 4/5ths of the full duration.

This continues down until for a few seconds you CANT be stunned or staggered anymore, gaurenteeing that you cant be stunlocked/perma-staggered.

The same thing can apply to knockdowns and just put a hard limit on how many times you can be knocked down for a set duration and if you hit that cap knockdowns deal damage but dont do anything else to you.

[Xylia]

I do agree that stagger/knockdown is annoying.

 

Ancient Disruptors should not knock you down completely. They do enough damage already (all shields and all energy plus being locked out from gaining energy for 5+ seconds), they don't need to lay you out flat on the ground while the nearest 10 mobs can chew you apart before you can get back up on your feet and get away from the stupid thing. That's just ridiculous.

 

Grineer Shield Guys.... I don't mind their knockdown, except they come charging from across long distances and there's really nothing you can do about it because they move way too fast for someone with such a huge shield AND I've seen them hit me from 5 feet away, even though I was nowhere near in melee range (this was Solo so don't even blame lag). I could understand it IF I WAS IN MELEE RANGE, but I wasn't. Try to move around them, or backwards? They still get you with that stupid shield bash. Sometimes it ragdolls you right off a ledge. There was this one time I got flung off a ledge, reappeared beside him, and HE DID IT AGAIN. That's nice. And then there's 2 shield guys side-by-side in this annoying "we're gonna keep charging at you and knocking you down over and over again" that makes me wish Dethcube didn't have a cooldown on Vaporize...

 

Toxic Ancients: Another cheap, cheap, cheap combo. They have a proximity damage that does ridiculous health damage and bypasses your shields. "HAI GUYZ LET'S GIVE THEM KNOCKDOWN TOO!"

 

Not only Knockdown, RANGED Knockdown ontop of that! So they can lay you out flat on the ground, run over to you, stand on top of you and kill you in 5 seconds, bypassing your shields all the while.

 

Yeah, that's......real fair.

[WhisperByte]

...

grineer rollers wouldnt be annoying if they didnt stagger you. they do so little damage to begin with. as for the obvious 'well then just boost their damage', to which i would say 'do you really want impossible to hit chargers biting your ankles in groups of 4 with no cluster limitations? youll be dead within seconds'

...

RUNNERS DO NOT KNOCK YOU DOWN. period. 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/74108-hotfix-831/'>https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/74108-hotfix-831/

 

Fix for players being staggered in air, instead they are knocked down

[Sammy001]

You forgat those blue birdies, knocked me down through a wall and kept knocking me down while I was constantly trying to get my gun out. took about 5-6 knockdowns before they knocked me out of their range.

I was on rhino, so I easily survived, but I was thinking about making a cup of coffee while all that was going on.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Sammy001

[holyicon]

My 2 Cents:

Here's how I would remedy any complaints for knockdowns.

#1: Rare Defense Mod "Be Like Water" (6).
Quicker recovery from being staggered.
Knockdowns will only stagger you part of the time.
Tier 0: Stagger time -10%. Knockdown conv. to stagger rate +5%,
Tier 1: Stagger time -20%. Knockdown conv. to stagger rate +10%,
Tier 2: Stagger time -30%. Knockdown conv. to stagger rate +15%,
Tier 3: Stagger time -40%. Knockdown conv. to stagger rate +20%,

#2: Infected that self destruct trigger any other nearby infected that are in the process of self destructing to do so simultaneously.

#3: Ditto #2 for Shack-wave Moa doing Stomp.

#4: Seekers have more limited arsenals:
Common Seekers: May only release 1 Roller and up to 2 Latchers at a time.
Heavy Seekers: May only release up to 2 Rollers and up to 2 Latchers at a time.
Boss Seekers: May only release up to 3 Rollers and up to 3 Latcher at a time.

#5: Holding "Guard" gives you a natural +50% Convert Knockdown to Stagger rate and -50% Stagger Time effect.

Feel free to flame my suggestions individually or as a whole.

[Taranis49]

Hmmmm i agree with some of your points, i'd have to disagree wiith the whole movement thing though, use tennos are given a set of skills ( we are freakin space ninjas) having the ability to parkour almost everywhere by itself is already a big margin if you compare use to the grineer BUT alongside that we have abilities that differ on which frame we use, and weapons, and a robotic pet that floats everywhere we go.

 

the cheapest way to beat us is to basically remove movement which even then we have a sentinel shooting at them while we are down.

I dont mind knockbacks i really dont.But yes the house of a monster Ancients do need some sort of stomping sound because they are more stealthier than us tenno space ninjas in some occasions.

 

It wouldn't half as annoying if some were readily avoidable via skill more than luck. Shockwave Moas and Leapers, for example, are what I'd consider to be knockdown done right - odds are if you get knocked down by either, it was your own fault for failing to jump at the right time or move out of the way while they were winding up.

 

In the case of stuff like disruptors, shield lancers and scorpions though? If they're waiting behind a door you're almost guaranteed to get hit without any real opportunity to avoid or react. As noted, disruptor tentacles are hitscan, even if you get behind them before they finish striking, the tentacle'll magically go through their own chest to hit you. That's a case where skill doesn't really matter, just luck. That shouldn't be the case.

[Toom1275]

For some of these knockdowns, it'd be nice if holding the melee blocking stance could help a Tenno keep their footing. It's not like block is useful for much right now anyway.

[eStecko]

You forgot Railgun MOA... that knocks you down every 3 seconds... trough a wall.

[Tsukinoki]

@eStecko

And good luck if you are stuck reloading a gun, or swapping, and you just get hit, over, and over, and over again through cover by more than one railgun.

[Trololol_Banana]

I disagree in the sense that less enemies should have a knock down skill. It keeps things interesting, especially if a laser MOA knocks you down when you are trying to run away, and something runs over and starts pounding you into the ground, for example. You really feel the pressure in that situation.

 

However, I DO think that there needs to be a timer on the knock downs a player can sustain per minute. In defense, usually against some of the same laser MOA's I mentioned, you will get two or three of them lasering you down, and you can't do anything because the next laser hits before you regain control from the animation picking you back up from the ground. Repeat ad naseum until dead.

 

A knockdown every 15 seconds or something should be implemented, not letting a player get knocked down before getting up.

THAT is THE solution. +1 rep .

[WhisperByte]

@Taranis49

 

Leapers' knockdown jump is also autoaim. Earlier today I had few cases of leapers hitting me cause of this bullS#&$ mechanic:

Leaper starts his windup animation. Then Shade cloaks me. I jump over the leaper and behind him. He jumps at me (while I'm still invisible and not in the position that I was before cloaking) and I still get knocked down

Edited July 10, 2013 by WhisperByte

[eStecko]

Well... taking away player control is fun for a player... right... right?

 

From 2nd topic on similiar topic...

The problem are 2 MOA's, that wont fire at a same time and are capable of stunlocking player forever (and killing him in a process) in a form of knockdowns from a distance as there is no dimishing return on repeated CC on player. Previous stagger after being hit was annoying but it was in reasonable limit. When speaking of dimishing return of CC, which NPC's have already (~10s), why just dont add it on player end aswell (no need for such a long time) by a simple guess this would solve many problems with current chain-stunlock issues in the game. We could argue that the attack is telegraphed for like 1 seconds, before you get sniped and that you not always have complete overview about every single enemy on the map or being pressured by other enemies and rushed on by melee's (defense). Anyway, taking away player control is always a lazy design, unless developers want to make a cinematic impression (cutscenes or look around drive-troughs) or the game is based around QTE's (Heavy Rain, Walking Dead). WF needs better AI* and animation system for clever enemies (Grineer, Corpus) to be able to react and dodge when we're aiming at them, not in a way that they will get impossible to hit (Borderlands 2, rats type enemies) or have super speed, and to be able to pressure player, not just numbers alone. Obviously we could talk about bullet sponges and damage amplifiers, that are boring to kill, but what can you do, when the game already has levels, weapon/warframe number modifiers.

 

*Generaly the AI is a problematic thing and quite hard to develop, so i would not expect big changes and loads of topics about this are in this forum already. Crysis/FEAR1/2 AI would be awesome, but i would keep on dreaming.

 

Also...