Void 2.5 - Incorporate current Relic system into old Void system

[BroPyp]

You'll notice I didn't put "Void 3.0" in the title - this is because my concept uses no new implementations, just a mix of existing ones.

To bring back the feel (and reward) of the old Void system which everyone knew and loved (and lets not forget hated at times), I propose using Void Traces to access any of the current Void missions, where the Void Trace cost of accessing these missions scales respectively with mission level (and thus loot "quality")

But then that begs the question: Why? We have relics, this is good enough is it not?

In my personal opinion, I love the relic system. It is fun, and it is very rewarding, but it simply does not feel like I am farming for anything special anymore; just... stuff. The reason why I think this would be beneficial, is because it can still work alongside the current Relic system; hence Void 2.5.

Now don't get me wrong, everyone wants the rare item in the Axi E1 relic, of course, and the same goes for all other vaulted relics. However, back in the days of the old Void, I felt no matter what mission I did, everything that dropped had some kind of value assigned to it, some kind of precious significance - even if it was just a Forma BP or Orokin Catalyst BP on rotation A/B or, better yet, a crafted Forma. I liked that. That was fun. That rewarded me for my time, even if I didn't get the rare item I wanted. I appreciated spending 60 minutes in a T3 Survival getting some prime parts, some Forma, maybe an Orokin Catalyst BP and never truly expected to get rare items. That isn't why I played the old Void. I liked hording stuff, no matter what it was. It was valuable in some way.

 

Nowadays, I am growing to actually expect rare items from Radiant relics. I'm not saying it is too easy, but in fact, I am just saying it feels too quick. 

Let me elaborate on that point in comparison to the old Void:

Old: "I'm gonna go do <void tower> because I have a strong enough Warframe build with strong enough weapons and should come back with at least a forma or stuff to sell to Baro."

20 minutes into <void tower>: Holy **** I got <some rare item>! Nice!

New: "I'm gonna refine <relic> to Radiant and see if there's any missions I can use it on. Oh there's one."

Completion of Axi Capture Fissure: Nice, another Nikana Prime Blade. 

 

And off I would go to the trade chat, and sell my <rare item> for 100 platinum or my Nikana Prime Blade for 25 platinum.

Fair enough, I did a capture mission and got a rare item. It took me less than 5 minutes. Who's complaining? My point is that it does not seem to have much significance getting rare parts from Relics (unless they're new or vaulted). In the Old void, you didn't just get your rare item and 100 platinum; you got 3 other things that were of some value, be it a Forma / Orokin Catalyst / Orokin Reactor / Uncommon Prime Part + in some cases significant credits.

Which is why I have the following suggestion:

Lith

Teshub - 20 Traces to enter can drop: [5k Credit Cache, 10k Credit Cache, Forma Blueprint, Common Prime Part]
Hepit - 20 Traces to enter, can drop: [10k Credit Cache, Forma Blueprint, Common Prime Part]
Taranis - 100 Traces to enter, can drop: [7.5k Credit Cache, Forma Blueprint, Common Prime Part, Uncommon Prime Part]

Meso

Tiwaz - 35 Traces to enter, can drop: [7.5k Credit Cache, 12.5k Credit Cache, Orokin Catalyst Blueprint, Uncommon Prime Part]
Stribog - 35 Traces to enter, can drop: [12.5k Credit Cache, Orokin Catalyst Blueprint, Uncommon Prime Part]
Ani - 150 Traces to enter, can drop: [10k Credit Cache, Orokin Catalyst Blueprint, Common Prime Part, Rare Prime Part]

Neo

Ukko - 50 Traces to enter, can drop: [10k Credit Cache, 15k Credit Cache, Common Prime Part, Orokin Reactor Blueprint]
Oxomoco - 50 Traces to enter, can drop: [15k Credit Cache, Common Prime Part, Orokin Reactor Blueprint]
Belenus - 200 Traces to enter, can drop: [12.5k Credit Cache, Uncommon Prime Part, Orokin Reactor Blueprint, Rare Prime Part]

Axi

Aten - 65 Traces to enter, can drop: [12.5k Credit Cache, 17.5k Credit Cache, Common Prime Part, Crafted Forma, Uncommon Prime Part]
Marduk - 65 Traces to enter, can drop: [17.5k Credit Cache, Common Prime Part, Orokin Catalyst Blueprint, Uncommon Prime Part]
Mithra - 300 Traces to enter, can drop: [17.5k Credit Cache, Uncommon Prime Part, Orokin Catalyst Blueprint,  Rare Prime Part]
Mot - 300 Traces to enter, can drop: [17.5k Credit Cache, Common Prime Part, Orokin Reactor or Catalyst Blueprint, Rare Prime Part]

 

The above is basically a list of the currently available missions, matching up the current void missions with the current Relic Era's depending on level, and also a fairly structured drop table. Obviously, this would not be easy to implement but may in itself not take a huge amount of time as totally recreating the system to incorporate the old void; maybe the era's of the missions (Lith... Axi) could be a determinant factor in what is included in the drop tables. Also, more missions may potentially be required if the number of available items cannot fit those drop tables and still be reasonably difficult to get valuable items.

Note: You may also be thinking these hypothetical drop tables look too "pure" and lack enough junk to make the rare items worthwhile, but please note I have only loosely defined the items in these drop tables and would be for DE to decide, of course. And bear in mind you have farmed enough traces so you should be rewarded in some way, similar to how relics work (without refinement)

 

TL;DR - Basically, you still collect Relics, and can still run fissures. In fact, this is the first thing you'd need to do if you are a new player in order to have traces. Then, work your way to unlocking the void, up your MR and stockpile traces to be able to do the void missions for truly a truly rewarding endgame. The focus of Void 2.5 is to bring back the genuine feeling of reward once you eventually get what you want - the difference being that if you don't, you still walk away with some valuables you can't complain about. Not just more traces in the case of the Relic system.

Edited February 20, 2017 by BroPyp

[Chipputer]

I mean I don't hate the idea. It's strange, I look at this and I'm like, "yeah, okay, sure, whatever," and I can't really think of anything to say against it or for it.

I can still run relics? Check.
I can run "void" missions? Check.
I have something else to spend my traces on besides the chance for 100 ducats? Check.

Hm.

[Phailberry]

Key thing i'm trying to see here:
You're suggesting that the Void tileset could have a Void Trace pickup just like when doing a Fissure, to offer a cache type reward? Specific per node or node region?
Sounds pretty interesting.

 

[BroPyp]

4 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I mean I don't hate the idea. It's strange, I look at this and I'm like, "yeah, okay, sure, whatever," and I can't really think of anything to say against it or for it.

I can still run relics? Check.
I can run "void" missions? Check.
I have something else to spend my traces on besides the chance for 100 ducats? Check.

Hm.

I get what you mean, and that was my goal really. My thinking for this was as follows:

"What harm would it really do if the actual void missions dropped items reflective of its 'endgame' nature, in the sense that they are the final missions you unlock?"

I personally feel that there is no harm. Warframe prides itself on having more than one way to do things. You can use a Tonkor forever, but that will get boring. Why not get an Amprex build? It's the same principle I am applying to this concept: more than one way to farm for valuable parts, with similar time investment required, and potentially better quantity of rewards for that time you spend. Traces should be an investment, not a purchase. That's what they feel like with relic refinement. Which, again, is what some people in the game like, whereas some people might want to run an endless mission just because they can. So why not be rewarded items they deserve too?

There is currently very little reason to do any of the Void missions.

 

[Chipputer]

1 minute ago, BroPyp said:

I personally feel that there is no harm.

I think that's my stumbling point with the idea.

There's nothing really hurt by implementing it, save maybe development time, and there's also nothing really lost by not implementing it (at least that wasn't already lost).

Maybe that's the mark of a sensible idea?

[(PSN)ThatPersonInMars]

+1

Loved the idea

[peterc3]

The harm is in bringing back repeatedly running the same bloody tileset over and over again. Those trace costs are an order of magnitude lower than they should be for something so rewarding.

[BroPyp]

12 minutes ago, Phailberry said:

Key thing i'm trying to see here:
You're suggesting that the Void tileset could have a Void Trace pickup just like when doing a Fissure, to offer a cache type reward? Specific per node or node region?
Sounds pretty interesting.

 

 

Actually, I do not propose the Void should drop Void Traces, and for the simple reason that you are actually in the Void. You won't get Void "Traces" from here. You are already here, you have spent traces you've earned from Relics supposedly vanished from the Void itself and found elsewhere. You are now putting those Traces of the Void you found from other missions back into the Void itself, to give you access to a plethora of nice, unexpected, surprising and rewarding loot. 

Or if you want, put the traces into an Axi A1 if you want to sell a Nikana Prime blueprint for quick platinum. No harm in doing that.

 

5 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

I think that's my stumbling point with the idea.

There's nothing really hurt by implementing it, save maybe development time, and there's also nothing really lost by not implementing it (at least that wasn't already lost).

Maybe that's the mark of a sensible idea?

I was thinking that the actual Void missions should *possibly* contain vaulted items; this would give doing endless missions in the Void costing you 300 traces a bit of a risk:reward form of thinking. Do you need to stay for 20 minutes for this really rare item you want? What about 40? Or an hour? Or even two, if you can handle it?

But I get that the whole idea of vaulted items is that they are not farmable. Perhaps this is a way to keep them in the game, with an extreme level of difficulty in acquiring them; thus retaining their well deserved value.

Edited February 20, 2017 by BroPyp

[Chipputer]

4 minutes ago, BroPyp said:

I was thinking that the actual Void missions should *possibly* contain vaulted items

There's the red flag.

For the players this makes sense. For the business this doesn't. Vaulting is a thinly veiled attempt to keep items holding a value both in-game and out-of-game. As much as I like the idea of rarely getting vaulted items, having them available in the Void wouldn't really work with DE's business model.

[Velianuwa]

16 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

The harm is in bringing back repeatedly running the same bloody tileset over and over again. Those trace costs are an order of magnitude lower than they should be for something so rewarding.

At this point in Warframe I kinda miss the Void tileset, (if you listen to the music inside, it's also really damn chill and calming for what you do inside of the void) I loved hanging out in it and really like he said, testing my skills in the void. I haven't done a 2 hour survival with my friends in the void for ages now while in the old key system we did one almost pretty much every day. 

 

I miss the old key system honestly and wouldn't even mind if we had the old system along with the relic system at the same time.

I've lost the will to do relics as it's stacks of RNG, and RNG modifiers (46 4x radiant runs for Valkyr Chassis, no drop). It's almost the same as the keys were but it took longer and it tested you more as the mobs level increased with time instead of just running around and killing certain level mobs that are defined with the fissure era level. (unless endless fissure, which I 've only seen only a few survivals, Defenses, Interceptions and Excavations dominate it). 

 

I know some might disagree with this but this is from my heart lol. I do miss the key system for a while now as it didn't require a farmed resource to make your RNG better (which sometimes makes no difference at all).

Edited February 20, 2017 by FoxyAby

[BroPyp]

Just now, Chipputer said:

There's the red flag.

For the players this makes sense. For the business this doesn't. Vaulting is a thinly veiled attempt to keep items holding a value both in-game and out-of-game. As much as I like the idea of rarely getting vaulted items, having them available in the Void wouldn't really work with DE's business model.

True, which is why I didn't include this in my main suggestion and seems fair that Vaulted items are indeed not acquirable.

Of course, I still wouldn't mind if vaulted items didn't exist at all in the Void. Instead, valuable items in the game itself which are currently easily farmable (looking at you, Vauban Prime) which players have naturally stockpiled relics of should rather be migrated to these harder missions.

And the potential rewards from these missions should definitely reflect that difficulty.

[Chipputer]

15 minutes ago, peterc3 said:

The harm is in bringing back repeatedly running the same bloody tileset over and over again.

Except this system wouldn't force you to do so to get the items you want, whereas the old system did.

[Eternal]

Been asking for a mix of the two ideas for a while now. Definitely miss doing those long void runs but the only time I can do them is if a neo or axi fissure just "happens" to go and spawn in the void.

Still love the void so at least this would give it some purpose again

[BroPyp]

2 hours ago, Zenviscerator said:

Been asking for a mix of the two ideas for a while now. Definitely miss doing those long void runs but the only time I can do them is if a neo or axi fissure just "happens" to go and spawn in the void.

Still love the void so at least this would give it some purpose again

I loved it too. Void was always my sort of go to mission if I was bored, ironically enough. Right now I don't feel like I can just go and play warframe and comfortably do a mission knowing it will be worth my time, because the only thing that is worth my time is doing fissures which get pretty dull if I'm honest. Now, the old Void also got pretty dull, but you only had to farm one key and you could access an endless mission for as many items as you could get. All I am proposing now is that you use Relics first to extract items + traces from them, and either refine the Relic for a better reward or build up your traces to run a rewarding mission; very similar to the Old-Void setup.

This integration concept of both Relic and Old-Void actually makes sense to me, lore wise.

Take it from a new player standpoint: You do missions, you eventually do missions rewarding you relics, do those missions, do junctions, increase Mastery Rank, do some fissures, gather traces, and just simply play the game knowing there is an actual goal at the end of it; whilst still being free to choose how you want to play.

Edited February 21, 2017 by BroPyp

[ArchPhaeton]

3 hours ago, BroPyp said:

-snip-

To bring back the feel (and reward) of the old Void system -snip-

Hel no bro. Just no.

As a player that farmed every primed stuff that was thrown in the old Void, I had my fair share of that and I don't want that feel to ever come back.

This whole thing revolves around your very subjective point of view of what the "old" void was vs. what the new void is. In endless fissure runs you still get cumulative rewards - both the normal game drops and the one from relics. Old void non endless runs also dropped only 1 reward. Not only that but you also get a small cred/drop/exp booster for each opened relic and then more relics, even refined ones.

3 hours ago, BroPyp said:

-snip- I am just saying it feels too quick. -snip-

This is a + from my PoV. I don't want to ever be damned to a month of farming to complete the Orthos Prime. If you want to spend more time doing the missions you're free to do so - but don't expect the majority of players to stick for 2h survivals, only few people like that kind of mind numbing game scenarios.

I see no need for a void trace sink. If you want better rewards for higher tier missions that's understandable (besides relics, most endless rewards are negligible, you get better stuff from killing the mobs). But don't expect DE to put incentives for scenarios beyond DEAC boundaries. And in the end, the whole "this was rewarding" feel is a completely subjective thing - getting a rare drop from my radiant relic at first try is way more rewarding to me than 2 weeks for a single kama blade, that's just nonsensical game burn.

[AnuEkko]

+1 from me. I absolutely LOVED the old Void system. I'd love to see this happen!

[BroPyp]

On 2/21/2017 at 2:26 AM, ArchPhaeton said:

Hel no bro. Just no.

As a player that farmed every primed stuff that was thrown in the old Void, I had my fair share of that and I don't want that feel to ever come back.

This whole thing revolves around your very subjective point of view of what the "old" void was vs. what the new void is. In endless fissure runs you still get cumulative rewards - both the normal game drops and the one from relics. Old void non endless runs also dropped only 1 reward. Not only that but you also get a small cred/drop/exp booster for each opened relic and then more relics, even refined ones.

This is a + from my PoV. I don't want to ever be damned to a month of farming to complete the Orthos Prime. If you want to spend more time doing the missions you're free to do so - but don't expect the majority of players to stick for 2h survivals, only few people like that kind of mind numbing game scenarios.

I see no need for a void trace sink. If you want better rewards for higher tier missions that's understandable (besides relics, most endless rewards are negligible, you get better stuff from killing the mobs). But don't expect DE to put incentives for scenarios beyond DEAC boundaries. And in the end, the whole "this was rewarding" feel is a completely subjective thing - getting a rare drop from my radiant relic at first try is way more rewarding to me than 2 weeks for a single kama blade, that's just nonsensical game burn.

I get your point, and if this system was implemented, no one or any game mechanic would be forcing you to play this mode. The bottom line of what I propose is that it is entirely your choice if you want to risk it and try these missions. They are currently "endgame Void missions," but for what reason? Why? What missions other than Raids can you say give you that sense of real danger and risk? And at the end of it, however long that may have been, you rake in rewards, some of them more valuable than others.

Given the fact that you are spending traces you got from cracking open relics, it would make sense to have slightly better drop chances than the old void for each rotations "best" part - otherwise, you are better off doing Radiant relics if that's how you want to play.

Edited February 22, 2017 by BroPyp

[(XBOX)Madness103]

This idea will definitely bring back some nostalgia for older players who are not a big fan of the current system and maybe appeal to newer players who never got to spend a good hour in the ornate Orokin Towers. Some people may hate it, and those people can use the relic system since it brings little to no harm to it.

[BroPyp]

On 2/23/2017 at 3:52 AM, (Xbox One)Madness103 said:

This idea will definitely bring back some nostalgia for older players who are not a big fan of the current system and maybe appeal to newer players who never got to spend a good hour in the ornate Orokin Towers. Some people may hate it, and those people can use the relic system since it brings little to no harm to it.

Yeah I'm only proposing a way to bring exactly that, not completely revamping the system itself. Some people won't like it, some will. Where is the harm?

Edited February 27, 2017 by BroPyp