"Multishot" - discussion about how it works vs its' name

[h3xuss]

So, I've come to learn that if you have a negative number on a multi shot, it will actually prevent you from shooting in general. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the name misleading? Think about it for few seconds: Multi Shot - sounds like an ability to shoot multiple things at once. So how come when you have less of that ability, it takes your basic ability to shoot away? Isn't that just general shooting it should be called then...?

I think either the mod should be renamed to make more sense and not to mislead people from making poor decisions as I did or to fix this problem and make "multi shot" a separate instance that does not take away your basic shooting ability.

E.g.: If you have a weapon that shoots 1 bullet per shot, by having multi shot - 100% would still allow you to shoot 1 bullet per shot at the minimum.

 

What do you guys think?

[aligatorno]

Positive multishot gives you a chance to shoot aditional bullets

Negative multishot gives you a chance to shoot less bullets. 

It's not really misleading. 

Just like how negative damage/crit used to heal enemies. Those are somewhat fun negatives that are there to force you to reroll. 

Edited March 12, 2017 by aligatorno

[h3xuss]

@aligatorno, I would preffer the negative multishot to give less multishots, not shots in general.

 

Edit: So just theoretically speaking, what would even happen if you have -200% multishot? Would you use 2 bullets for a single instance of not shooting? :D

Edited March 12, 2017 by h3xuss

[Lakais]

Multishot is bugged also. And DE is aware and is deliberately unwilling to fix it. Basically multishot was always supposed to take two bullets when it fires two. But the endgame crowd threw a collective fit when that discussion came up. 

[bluepheonix13]

Think of multishot as in number of pellets, then it all makes sense.  

[aligatorno]

5 minutes ago, h3xuss said:

@aligatorno, I would preffer the negative multishot to give less multishots, not shots in general.

 

Edit: So just theoretically speaking, what would even happen if you have -200% multishot? Would you use 2 bullets for a single instance of not shooting? :D

Once you hit -100% multishot you`ll never shoot another bullet IIRC.  Anything over -100% will do the exact same thing. 

Edited March 12, 2017 by aligatorno

[h3xuss]

I just can't really wrap my head around this poorly designed mechanism. It's like having bad programmers at work that only care for cash and get underpaid to design stuff they don't care about. How else would you end up with this tragedy of a "shooting" mechanics that they by default call "multishot" but it's just shooting in general.

[aligatorno]

2 minutes ago, h3xuss said:

I just can't really wrap my head around this poorly designed mechanism. It's like having bad programmers at work that only care for cash and get underpaid to design stuff they don't care about. How else would you end up with this tragedy of a "shooting" mechanics that they by default call "multishot" but it's just shooting in general.

It's not poorly designed, it does exactly what it says. positive = more bullets , negative = less bullets. As I said before, this and other negative stats have weird effects. 

Edited March 12, 2017 by aligatorno

[h3xuss]

I can only imagine a discussion a programmer had with his boss:

            Boss:    Hey, go make a multishot mod that we discussed.
Programmer:    Sure, we just need to create a new instance that will count an additional chance...
            Boss:    But we have already made a class that shoots?
Programmer:    Yeah, but it's an additional feature that...
            Boss:    Don't make work for yourself, just use what we got.
Programmer:    I don't think it would be wise to...
            Boss:    You're not getting paid to think, back to work.

[Zeyez]

25 minutes ago, h3xuss said:

E.g.: If you have a weapon that shoots 1 bullet per shot, by having multi shot - 100% would still allow you to shoot 1 bullet per shot at the minimum.

if this happen, that negative multishot values from rivens will be the mostly used on weapons like Simulor, that can't earn too much from positive values

and as bonus is not misleading... besides, as penalty, it is something we will avoid at all costs, since almost every weapon use Split Chamber/Hell Chamber/Barrel Diffusion to increase its damage, anyway

 

but i think this attribute should change to something else (including with other mandatory mods, like Serration...) and create new ones that fill this gap, like flat status values (Entropy Burst) on existant pure status mods, some unique ammo/effect mod to be used on more common weapons that can turn off/on in-mission (example: Concealed Explosives on Hikou Prime by using alt-fire) and an set of mods that force the weapon to deal only one of the status effect equipped on it [that one needs to look at, since i don't know if this is dangerous to be in-game, like force Grakata to deal only corrosive]

after all, multishot is one less slot for customization... depending from the weapon, you will only have 3-5 slots to change at your will, if you ignore the elemental damage mods

Edited March 12, 2017 by Zeyez
like this topic, everything in the world can be changed, it just needs the right words... and the left ones too.

[h3xuss]

3 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

It's not poorly designed, it does exactly what it says. positive = more bullets , negative = less bullets. As I said before, this and other negative stats have weird effects. 

It says multishot - meaning extra chance to shoot additional bullets, so logically thinking, negative effect should be LESS chance to shoot additional bullets, so we're left without additional shots, meaning we're shooting regularly?

[Gelkor]

7 minutes ago, h3xuss said:

I just can't really wrap my head around this poorly designed mechanism. It's like having bad programmers at work that only care for cash and get underpaid to design stuff they don't care about. How else would you end up with this tragedy of a "shooting" mechanics that they by default call "multishot" but it's just shooting in general.

Did you know that negative damage rivens can actually make it so you deal no damage whatsoever to enemies with your bullets? The terrible programming here is rampant.

[aligatorno]

2 minutes ago, h3xuss said:

It says multishot - meaning extra chance to shoot additional bullets, so logically thinking, negative effect should be LESS chance to shoot additional bullets, so we're left without additional shots, meaning we're shooting regularly?

Logically speaking, negative damage should not be possible and it should not heal enemies, and it still happens. Multishot works in the logic of the game, in that if a positive value gives you a chance to shoot more, a negative value gives you a chance to shoot less.

Those negatives are there, as I said before, to make you reroll the Riven, there'd be no point to them if they'd had no effect. 

Edited March 12, 2017 by aligatorno

[h3xuss]

1 minute ago, Gelkor said:

Did you know that negative damage rivens can actually make it so you deal no damage whatsoever to enemies with your bullets? The terrible programming here is rampant.

I guess we should be "thankful" it doesn't heal the enemies.

[Gelkor]

Just now, h3xuss said:

I guess we should be "thankful" it doesn't heal the enemies.

It used to, I'm bummed it doesn't now, they removed it because of trolling.

[h3xuss]

2 minutes ago, aligatorno said:

Logically speaking, negative damage should not be possible and it should not heal enemies, and it still happens. Multishot works in the logic of the game, in that if a positive value gives you a chance to shoot more, a negative value gives you a chance to shoot less.

I understand that you're explaining this in a "game logic", but what I am saying is that this logic of their is crap and it's wrong. And I'm willing to bet that they didn't care enough to work it out when this mod came out.

Edited March 12, 2017 by h3xuss

[h3xuss]

It's a typical example of a rotten corporation model where they don't fix what is not broken. Of course it's not broken, but it's hard to use, it's not user friendly and it's just a BAD experience in general. So instead of making the game more interesting to play story / mission or style wise, they just add more barriers that make you spend more time and that's it and they move on to add more barriers or new content, but don't think for a moment that A LOT of stuff needs to get reworked like trading - which is a tragedy on it's own, but I don't want to go further away from the topic at hand. Should the multishot in your opinions stay the way it is as it makes sense in general or should it be changed to something else as I've suggested in my first post?

And again, I am not talking about the game logic which we all can agree that it is crappy, I am talking about human logic and how you guys think it should behave.

Edited March 12, 2017 by h3xuss

[BetaDude40]

15 minutes ago, h3xuss said:

It's a typical example of a rotten corporation model where they don't fix what is not broken. Of course it's not broken, but it's hard to use, it's not user friendly and it's just a BAD experience in general. So instead of making the game more interesting to play story / mission or style wise, they just add more barriers that make you spend more time and that's it and they move on to add more barriers or new content, but don't think for a moment that A LOT of stuff needs to get reworked like trading - which is a tragedy on it's own, but I don't want to go further away from the topic at hand. Should the multishot in your opinions stay the way it is as it makes sense in general or should it be changed to something else as I've suggested in my first post?

And again, I am not talking about the game logic which we all can agree that it is crappy, I am talking about human logic and how you guys think it should behave.

... I think you're getting a wee bit off topic now. No need to get into an intense debate about corporate models and whatnot, we're not here to talk about any kind of social-economic-political fallacy in DE's product and using this as an example of "a typical rotten corporation model" simply because there is a stat in the game that you don't like.

Now, I can understand the frustration with Rivens. And negative multishot, especially on low-clip burst weapons, is horribly unsatisfying. But, at the same time, I see it as another feature in the game, and if you don't want it on your weapon, then simply reroll or trash the riven altogether. It sucks, I know, but honestly I kinda think it's a little funny with the way they implemented it, and I'm okay with it not being changed.

Although, probably the easiest solution to all of this? Cap off the negative multishot to, at the very least, -90%. That way it can't go below a point where the weapon is completely useless, and you still have approximately a %75 chance to land in the positive multishots.

I always rationalize the situation as every gun (minus shotguns) have an innate sort of chance to fire a bullet. For most things, clicking the trigger will have a 100% chance to produce one bullet. Adding more multishot (say +50%) gives you a 100% for the original bullet and a 50% chance for a second bullet. Negative multishot, therefore, would reduce this base 100%, so if you had -50% multishot then you had a 50% chance of firing a blank.

 

[ArchPhaeton]

Like @aligatorno said, it's just a low tactic to make us reroll which implies more grind.

It would be nice to have a multishot stat in the weapon stats so you know exactly how it's working, since in 1 bullet per shot weapons it's the chance of doubling the bullet count and in shotgun type weapons it multiplies the pellet count afaik.

 

 

[ChuckMaverick]

The multishot stat multiplies the number of shots (bullets, pellets, or whatever the weapon uses).

The base multishot stat for all* weapons is 1.0.

Multishot mods, like Split Chamber, increase the multishot stat for that weapon by a percentage (max +90% for Split Chamber).

The base number of bullets, pellets, or whatever for the weapon is multiplied by the multishot stat, and any fractional values have a chance to be fired or not. So a single shot rifle which would normally fire 1 bullet, with a maxed Split Chamber, will fire 1.9 bullets; but as you can't fire 0.9 of a bullet that round has a 90% chance to be fired and a 10% chance to not be fired.

Riven mods with a negative multishot modifier have the ability to reduce the multishot stat for a weapon below 1.0, a riven with -40% multishot used on the same single shot rifle from before without any other multishot mods would reduce its multishot stat to 0.6; meaning that the rifle now has a 60% chance to fire a single round and a 40% chance to fire no round at all.

All completely logical, all working as intended.

^{(* Note: Some weapons may have an innate multishot stat of higher than 1.0, but that is different to firing more than 1 pellet and irrelevant to this discussion anyway.)}

[bluepheonix13]

2 hours ago, h3xuss said:

I am not talking about the game logic which we all can agree that it is crappy, I am talking about human logic and how you guys think it should behave.

What do you even mean by game or human logic?

From my point of view, it totally makes sense and I don't know what your on about. Maybe you should think about what negative means? Positive Multishot means to shoot more than one bullet (a.k.a. Multi), so what else is negative multishot gonna mean than shooting less than one bullet? You are confusing zero with negative IMO.

 

[h3xuss]

Okay, look - you're clearly missing the point. By saying 'game logic' I wanted to say that "in game's perspective" or "by taking into consideration on how the game actually works"... the multishot does behave in the way you described, however - in my humble opinion, the "multi shot" feature should be a separate instance, a chance, if you may, that performs additional task. So by having a negative number on it, I would assume that I would simply be denied of the chance of spawning an extra bullet, but not lose an ability to fight completely. This is a disadvantage that renders any weapon useless and is not, in any way, a creative solution to enrich the game world. I think it was a miscalculated result of a poor decision maker that led to the existence of this very post.

So, to simplify this even further to you, Mr. bluepheonix - I don't care how it works from the technical, game mechanics point of view, I find it unsatisfying and... for a lack of a better word - dumb. Creating obstacles and restrictions within the game that should not exist and serve as proof of a bad design. When I tried to use a phrase "human logic", which you obviously lack - I wanted people to make an educated comment from their perspectives and not having to limit themselves to how a game currently works.

I'll leave you with paraphrased words of Lisa Goldenberg. "People who refer to themselves as out-of-the-box thinkers - see the box & people who don't know that the box exists are innovators."

Edited March 13, 2017 by h3xuss

[(PSN)Kawai-Senpai]

Do you think every weapon already has a chance to shoot an additional shot? @ChuckMaverick explains it perfectly. If you don't understand that the logic is sound then you don't understand this "human logic" you speak of.

[(PSN)Kawai-Senpai]

3 hours ago, ArchPhaeton said:

Like @aligatorno said, it's just a low tactic to make us reroll which implies more grind.

It would be nice to have a multishot stat in the weapon stats so you know exactly how it's working, since in 1 bullet per shot weapons it's the chance of doubling the bullet count and in shotgun type weapons it multiplies the pellet count afaik.

 

 

While I don't agree that it's a low tactic, I do think a multishot stat* in weapon stats would be a nice feature. Especially since I'm currently confused as to how it works on my Aklex prime with the riven I have. The riven plus the other 2 multishot mods puts my multishot percent to over 300 but I swear I see five shots come out sometimes.

Edited March 13, 2017 by (PS4)Kawai-Senpai
Autocorrect trash

[h3xuss]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Kawai-Senpai said:

Do you think every weapon already has a chance to shoot an additional shot? @ChuckMaverick explains it perfectly. If you don't understand that the logic is sound then you don't understand this "human logic" you speak of.

Well, that's part of the point I was making as well. For a second, let's rename the multi shot to... "Creating a bullet per shot", so by default you have a value of 1, being a 100% that a shot will happen. If you look at it from this perspective, yes it makes sense to have a number that adds or subtracts this ability, but then the point I wanted to make is: Don't call it multi-shot if the name only captures a positive result rather than it's actual functionality.

 

1 minute ago, (PS4)Kawai-Senpai said:

While I don't agree that it's a low tactic, I do think a multishot stat* in weapon stats would be a nice feature. Especially since I'm currently confused as to how it works on my Aklex prime with the riven I have. The riven plus the other 2 multishot mods puts my multishot percent to over 300 but I swear I see five shots come out sometimes.

Well, maybe the extra bullet that you've spawned also has a multishot on it or the game doesn't know how to handle the numbers and proves yet another point I was making about an unanticipated results, poor planning.