Are All Enemies Psychic? (A Discussion About Enemy Ai)

[PlumTheHermitCrab]

I love Warframe, and think it's a fantastic game. Really, I do.

 

That said, there are two closely related issues that really bug me a lot...

 

1. The MOMENT an enemy sees me, every other enemy in the area immediately "saw" me too. Did that first enemy tell them? No, he did not. Unless he/she is telepathically doing so, I have no idea how they are sounding out these immediate "enemy spotted" messages to everyone on the ship.

 

2. Not only does every enemy now know I'm here, they all somehow know where I am, ALL THE TIME. It doesn't matter what I do, or where I go, they all know the exact spot I'm standing. This is really annoying. (I know the scanners found me, but are the scanners THAT accurate, at all times?)

 

My suggestions to fix this:

 

1. Give the enemies some type of sound/animation of "OH NO. IS THAT A TENNO? HEY GUYS I FOUND A TENNO!" or something, that way I have a second to silence the enemy before he alerts his buddies. Maybe add a range to it too, that way even if I don't get to him in time, if no one is around to hear it, it doesn't matter. 

 

2. Remove the omniscience of the enemies. Make them look for me and try to find me if I go missing. 

 

Thanks for reading this! Leave comments and constructive criticism, please! 

[MylesShort]

Yeah, stealth patch would be nice, good suggestions and i'm sure they're working on it.

[PsychedelicSnake]

Yeah this is gets annoying at times, but I think we first need to work on the AI pathing. I cannot begin to tell you how hard it is to hit an entire group of Grineer that out of nowhere decided to start spinning in circles.

[lapinas2229]

if an enemy sees you, the first thing they try to do is set off the alarm. Once the alarm is activated, all the enemies are ready to attack. If one enemy sees you and starts to shoot, the others will do so too in response. If you happen to kill all of the enemies in a certain area, without any of them setting off the alarm, the next area up ahead will have un-alerted enemies.

[CubedOobleck]

Not only do the enemies know where you are exactly at all times after hearing a gunshot or spotting you once, they also know it when it was your teammate who was seen/heard

Imo, enemy sensor/alarm should tell the grineer/corpus what room you are in, so they can still swarm you and make it harder to hide, but not impossible. And enemy that hears something or gets hurt should turn in the direction but shouldn't know where you are unless he is actually personally seeing you.

And unless he sees you you should be able to perform a stealth takedown.

Edited July 12, 2013 by CubedOobleck

[Casardis]

Agreed. The way the AI will always know where you are even if you move from one spot to the next like a true space ninja reminds me of the days of Jedi Knight: Jedi Outcast. This also happens in Mass Effect games.

 

Improving the AI this way will surely increase the gamers' experience in my opinion.

[DaftMeat]

The absolute WORST is when there are open flames on a map. NO chance of stealth as the enemies can't distinguish from player-induced-damage and environmental-induced-damage.

With slow hosts, I've sometimes logged in dead as every enemy charges the spawn point.

[CubedOobleck]

if an enemy sees you, the first thing they try to do is set off the alarm. Once the alarm is activated, all the enemies are ready to attack. If one enemy sees you and starts to shoot, the others will do so too in response. If you happen to kill all of the enemies in a certain area, without any of them setting off the alarm, the next area up ahead will have un-alerted enemies.

Still doesn't make sense, a grineer shoots because he sees you and every other grineer in the are knows exactly where you are and where you are going just like that, even if the enemy base alarm and sensors aren't activated.

Stealth is work in progress they are slowly gonna get all these annoyances sorted out eventually.

Edited July 12, 2013 by CubedOobleck

[theasl]

Well, with the Infested, the current behaviour isn't too far-fetched. Corpus could have some sort of robot scanner things inside their helmets. Grineer have the neural sensor things, too (the resource). So it could make sense. Remember that this is thousands of years in the future, and technology has no doubt advanced.

[K244]

Well, with the Infested, the current behaviour isn't too far-fetched. Corpus could have some sort of robot scanner things inside their helmets. Grineer have the neural sensor things, too (the resource). So it could make sense. Remember that this is thousands of years in the future, and technology has no doubt advanced.

 

And also the Corpus have MOA's which they could easily program to alert each other.

[Zhoyzu]

U10 stealth play for those without friends!!!

 

cant wait

[gell]

+1

 

I also talked about this in my thread. Before we get all the incentives/rewards for being stealthy, we need to fix the AI's ability to know too much:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/71427-the-core-stealthalertness-issue

 

 

if an enemy sees you, the first thing they try to do is set off the alarm. Once the alarm is activated, all the enemies are ready to attack. If one enemy sees you and starts to shoot, the others will do so too in response. If you happen to kill all of the enemies in a certain area, without any of them setting off the alarm, the next area up ahead will have un-alerted enemies.

 

 I don't think you understood the OP's issue. What you said is true, but it's also irrelevant to the issue being discussed. :)

[theasl]

In-world, you can make things fit. Of course, that doesn't really make for good gameplay. I'd say that it needs to be fixed (and the fire hazard thing is just a plain bug), but it can be justified in a way.

[PlumTheHermitCrab]

It can easily be justified in-game, but it still kind of ruins the whole gameplay/mechanics of it all. 

[Daonitre]

1. The MOMENT an enemy sees me, every other enemy in the area immediately "saw" me too. Did that first enemy tell them? No, he did not. Unless he/she is telepathically doing so, I have no idea how they are sounding out these immediate "enemy spotted" messages to everyone on the ship.

----- He didn't have to tell them. Being a futuristic game it shouldn't surprise you that the suits they are using automatically pass information from one soldier to the entire unit.

2. Not only does every enemy now know I'm here, they all somehow know where I am, ALL THE TIME. It doesn't matter what I do, or where I go, they all know the exact spot I'm standing. This is really annoying. (I know the scanners found me, but are the scanners THAT accurate, adt all times?)

----- Once an alarm is hit it shouldn't surprise you that the ship monitors all motion and also feeds this to the enemy suits. While I'm all for "more ninja-like gameplay" ... I have to say the future of ninja assassination would be more sneak in as best you can, then run and gun. Get in and get out. I feel the game as it stands does a good job of balancing those aspects.

 

As a side-note, it would be awesome if stealth play provided a proper bonus to keeping those alarms off and actually "sticking to the shadows". Silenced weapons, scrambler "no info sent or received" type abilities, and such would make an excellent addition to the game.

[Lukap99]

1. The MOMENT an enemy sees me, every other enemy in the area immediately "saw" me too. Did that first enemy tell them? No, he did not. Unless he/she is telepathically doing so, I have no idea how they are sounding out these immediate "enemy spotted" messages to everyone on the ship.

----- He didn't have to tell them. Being a futuristic game it shouldn't surprise you that the suits they are using automatically pass information from one soldier to the entire unit.

2. Not only does every enemy now know I'm here, they all somehow know where I am, ALL THE TIME. It doesn't matter what I do, or where I go, they all know the exact spot I'm standing. This is really annoying. (I know the scanners found me, but are the scanners THAT accurate, adt all times?)

----- Once an alarm is hit it shouldn't surprise you that the ship monitors all motion and also feeds this to the enemy suits. While I'm all for "more ninja-like gameplay" ... I have to say the future of ninja assassination would be more sneak in as best you can, then run and gun. Get in and get out. I feel the game as it stands does a good job of balancing those aspects.

 

As a side-note, it would be awesome if stealth play provided a proper bonus to keeping those alarms off and actually "sticking to the shadows". Silenced weapons, scrambler "no info sent or received" type abilities, and such would make an excellent addition to the game.

That's a bad excuse. Halo CE had the feature OP was talking about, and that game was released over a decade ago with no actual stealth mechanics other than a insta kill meele to back. This is because Warframes' AI was designed around run and gun firefight gameplay, not stick-to-the-shadows stealth gameplay.

[TheHeraldXII]

I love Warframe, and think it's a fantastic game. Really, I do.

 

That said, there are two closely related issues that really bug me a lot...

 

1. The MOMENT an enemy sees me, every other enemy in the area immediately "saw" me too. Did that first enemy tell them? No, he did not. Unless he/she is telepathically doing so, I have no idea how they are sounding out these immediate "enemy spotted" messages to everyone on the ship.

 

2. Not only does every enemy now know I'm here, they all somehow know where I am, ALL THE TIME. It doesn't matter what I do, or where I go, they all know the exact spot I'm standing. This is really annoying. (I know the scanners found me, but are the scanners THAT accurate, at all times?)

 

My suggestions to fix this:

 

1. Give the enemies some type of sound/animation of "OH NO. IS THAT A TENNO? HEY GUYS I FOUND A TENNO!" or something, that way I have a second to silence the enemy before he alerts his buddies. Maybe add a range to it too, that way even if I don't get to him in time, if no one is around to hear it, it doesn't matter. 

 

2. Remove the omniscience of the enemies. Make them look for me and try to find me if I go missing. 

 

Thanks for reading this! Leave comments and constructive criticism, please! 

As for point 1, that's actually wrong, only the enemy that saw you is alerted, but the rest are "readied" and start taking cover. They won't try hunting for you or set off the alarms. This is the case as of a recent patch.

Point 2 I completely agree with, I have no idea how the Grineer are tracking the exact crate I'm hiding behind from three rooms away, but they are. Those guys must have awesome scanners, but if they do, how did you sneak at all?

 

As for your suggestions, the first one already exists, there are a lot of lines like "he's here", "Tenno in my sight" and the like whenever they spot you. So, yeah, that's not an issue. The second suggestion I completely agree with, it'd be nice if they started sweeping the room for enemies instead of just homing in on my cover immediately without getting any visual contact.

[FLSH_BNG]

And unless he sees you you should be able to perform a stealth takedown.

I'm all for that, if each enemy had a perception cone, and any melee attack that hits them when their focus isn't on you ought to result in an "assassination" kill.

 

That said, it wouldn't make sense if they know you're behind them and they're running for cover; and certain enemies (bosses especially) would need to be immune to this because it would just defeat the purpose of having a boss fight to begin with.

 

To be honest though, I don't know if the infested should be susceptible to any instant kill animations (with the exception of Ash's Bladestorm) since, them being aberrations with no discernible internal anatomy, we wouldn't know the first thing about where their vital organs actually are. Sure they may have areas that are more sensitive, but that's it really.

Edited July 13, 2013 by FLSH_BNG

[soul268]

i really want a stealth patch. i mean we are space ninjas why cant we own a hole pile of them and not leave a trace. I think they need more stuff like wall cling. light manipulation (you can shoot lights and hide in shadows) would be fun. Also what gets me is once the alarm goes off its over not a real reason to get kuni when i have Paris normally some one sees me before i can complete mission so i bust out a bronco NO POINT IN KEEPING STEALTH.

 

i also thing as space ninjas we sould get extra rewards for epic moves like killing three mobs in one shot or not setting off an alarm.

[CubedOobleck]

I'm all for that, if each enemy had a perception cone, and any melee attack that hits them when their focus isn't on you ought to result in an "assassination" kill.

 

That said, it wouldn't make sense if they know you're behind them and they're running for cover; and certain enemies (bosses especially) would need to be immune to this because it would just defeat the purpose of having a boss fight to begin with.

Yeah of course there needs to be some latency that makes up for the enemy's turning speed, just running behind a grineer after passing infront of him shouldn't allow you to execute a stealth attack, that would look kinda dumb too.