[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[devildevil21]

11 minutes ago, Shadu said:

I've tried the banish spamming method, but it simply doesn't work versus high level enemies, also rift surging and then unbanishing takes really long to do, where as a simple cataclysm does the job instantly. And with both you can't specifically control what enemies do get banished. Now if banish was castable on both planes with the fix stated under this you would be able to use it on the fly and you would be of more use in stuff like extermination as a Limbo.

I totally get the part about not wanting to unbanish that are in the same radius as the targets you already wanted to banish, I had a fix for this posted in a other thread already that got moved to here so I'll quote:
" I agree with that part, I really do think they need to make banish work on both planes again from the rift. However that will be messy with the AOE targetting, but something like prioritize putting those that aren't in the rift yet over putting those that are in the rift into the normal plane should be able to fix it? So if you target enemies that are both in the rift and aren't, everything will stay in the rift and those that weren't yet will get moved to the rift. If all were already in the rift, all get moved to the normal plane. "

This way you won't unbanish targets you wanted to keep in the rift already and instead just add more to the rift.
And due to the banish already being aoe currently and no way to actually remove rift surge from enemies that are already affected by it I find it hard to use banish to remove enemies from my rift.. and when they are already in there you can just kill them usually so I didn't experience the need for the unbanish yet (apart from trying with rift surge).

 

Oh, yes, but there's this "catch" with limbo.

 

Did you notice that stasis can be a big trolling abillity to the team? When you use cataclysm, rift surge, and cancel cataclysm, your teammates will go back to the material plane but the enemies will stay frozen in time in the rift plane, giving you free space to use stasis and kill them alone, while if you use it with your team still there, what happens most of the time is your stasis getting constantly shut down*, leaving you vulnerable.

* reason why it gets shut down is due to the bullet cap on stasis.

Other than that, i agree with you. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by devildevil21

[nameomnz]

20 minutes ago, AlaskanWolf said:

here's the thing about the limbo rework that I've noticed..... 

 

HE'S SO DAMN POWERFUL NOW!! 

 

the thing is he can't be played at all like it used to be, he's no longer Method Man Limbo,  now he's a cataclysmic limbo

 

To me rift torrent is now a required mod... It give his cataclysm INSANE dmg! Rift surge is far from useless, as it now scales with the enemies in the rift. So you open a massive cataclysm, pop rift surge, then pop the cataclysm and watch the room die... Repeat 

 

I like the new banish... It makes it more fun, since you are playing more with BOTH planes and opens up more strategies and makes him more playful.  But the best strategy  is massive range with rift torrent... I was on Heiracon for 28 extractors and had a damage buff on cataclysm of over 2000%! In a team of 4 I got 56% of the dmg at end of mission! 

 

 

Or you can just spam Cataclysm and get 80% damage and 7 times more kill than a second guy.

[Shadu]

1 minute ago, devildevil21 said:

 

Oh, yes, but there's this "catch" with limbo.

 

Did you notice that stasis can be a big trolling abillity to the team? When you use cataclysm, rift surge, and cancel cataclysm, your teammates will go back to the material plane but the enemies will stay frozen in time in the rift plane, giving you free space to use stasis and kill them alone, while if you use it with your team still there, what happens most of the time is your stasis getting constantly shut down, leaving you vulnerable.

 

Other than that, i agree with you. 

Yep I am totally aware of the trolling ability of stasis and I feel that stasis would be less of a problem if we could use it in an easier way with banish compared to having to often rely on cataclysm. But just like Limbo can troll other players with stasis so can the other players troll Limbo by taking a weapon like the Zarr and just instantly shut down stasis whenever.

I guess you mostly meant about unbanishing players though that might have been accidentally banished along with the enemies you were targeting. With banish you would just skip the group if you don't trust the player or so? I'm not sure..

[Shadu]

Just now, nameomnz said:

Or you can just spam Cataclysm and get 80% damage and 7 times more kill than a second guy.

That only works versus corpus and infested most of the time and holy crap is that playstyle boring and needs to be nerfed ASAP.

[devildevil21]

1 minute ago, Shadu said:

Yep I am totally aware of the trolling ability of stasis and I feel that stasis would be less of a problem if we could use it in an easier way with banish compared to having to often rely on cataclysm. But just like Limbo can troll other players with stasis so can the other players troll Limbo by taking a weapon like the Zarr and just instantly shut down stasis whenever.

I guess you mostly meant about unbanishing players though that might have been accidentally banished along with the enemies you were targeting. With banish you would just skip the group if you don't trust the player or so? I'm not sure..

Yes, pretty much that, but without sacrificing your vulnerability (as it stands right now, since we need to be in the same plane as the enemy), I just use cataclysm, stasis, rift surge and cancel cataclysm, leaving the enemies stuck in time and in the rift, while my team gets sent back to the material plane.

 

That also stops the possibility of the team ruining my stasis (as you have mentioned, with the weapon Zarr shutting stasis immediatly).

[nameomnz]

1 minute ago, Shadu said:

That only works versus corpus and infested most of the time and holy crap is that playstyle boring and needs to be nerfed ASAP.

I strongly agree also tweek his Stasis.

 

[AlaskanWolf]

5 minutes ago, nameomnz said:

Or you can just spam Cataclysm and get 80% damage and 7 times more kill than a second guy.

That's true, but the method I was talking about plays kinda like nidus,  in that as the mission goes on, your dmg buff on rift surge increases. And yes, this could be spammed, but it's more fun to play in the rift :) 

 

Edit: it also makes for a nice panic button (along with stasis)  when things get over whelming

Edited March 27, 2017 by AlaskanWolf

[Shadu]

Just now, devildevil21 said:

Yes, pretty much that, but without sacrificing your vulnerability (as it stands right now, since we need to be in the same plane as the enemy), I just use cataclysm, stasis, rift surge and cancel cataclysm, leaving the enemies stuck in time and in the rift, while my team gets sent back to the material plane.

 

That also stops the possibility of the team ruining my stasis (as you have mentioned, with the weapon Zarr shutting stasis immediatly).

Agreed and that is kinda why I would prefer banish to be able to hit both planes, banish and cataclysm then have different uses. With cataclysm you'll control an area and that will be your killing floor and you won't move around much. With banish you'll use on the go and to annoy your squad mates less.. or something like that.

[ChameleonBro]

On 3/26/2017 at 6:47 PM, Trichouette said:

Unless that it has a huge cast range and AOE range and when enemies are banished they get knocked down.

And once again, press 2 and it's easy peasy, all enemies banished are frozen.

When I say "nerf" I mean "nerf the insane damage"

The ability was great and didn't need change, they just added a gigantic burst damage on the collapse that depend on enemies inside it, which is pretty much "press 4 to destroy the map"

Oh yes, this way we can banish enemies and unbanish others at the same time

1. Yes but it still requires you to walk up to the enemies to do so, the enemies that get Banished are not the problem, it's the enemies that aren't banished. Stasis doesn't help here because it only effects enemies in the rift.

2. His Cataclysm is in no way OP, it SCALES. By your logic attacks that scale are all op including Virulence. Besides Cataclysm can't kill more than trash mobs and even that requires you to get in a few Heavy Gunners and Bombards to do so.

3. You mean as in because of the AoE effect enemies that have been Banished will be Unbanished once again ? That can easily be fixed by putting a timer of not being able to unbanish the Banished enemy until they don't get up, or (especially if you use stasis beforehand  it can be seen as a way of preventing Limbo from being able to constantly stay in the Rift and just Banish enemies.

Edited March 27, 2017 by ChameleonBro

[AlaskanWolf]

Funny thought...... Limbo is still a troll after the rework 

 

Now instead of trolling objectives, he just kills everything before the squad can get to it 

[ChameleonBro]

On 3/26/2017 at 2:35 PM, Eldest89 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

see DE that a lot of players would like to have a choice or a discrimination when using banish and I totaly agree with them. please listen to our feedback and fix the AoE effect of Banish

Honestly my only problem is not being able to Banish from the Rift Plane. The AoE is perfectly fine, teammates can just roll out and the 3 Bombards behind them will simply fall down giving them more than enough time to react.

[Kubelecer]

Fix rift surge or change the tooltip to reflect its' intended behaviour pls

[ChameleonBro]

9 minutes ago, AlaskanWolf said:

Funny thought...... Limbo is still a troll after the rework 

 

Now instead of trolling objectives, he just kills everything before the squad can get to it 

There's other frames who do that job a lot better. Especially trolling.

[Trichouette]

Just now, ChameleonBro said:

1. Yes but it still requires you to walk up to the enemies to do so, the enemies that get Banished are not the problem, it's the enemies that aren't banished

With that casting range ? Wut ? Without mod you can cast at 35m, and the AOE is HUGE

1 minute ago, ChameleonBro said:

2. His Cataclysm is in no way OP, it SCALES. By your logic attacks that scale are all op including Virulence. Besides Cataclysm can't kill more than trash mobs and even that requires you to get in a few Heavy Gunners and Bombards to do so.

Well I don't know, I can easily kill level 100 corpus crewmen, but everything depend on the number of enemies (which is a piece of cake against infected)

2 minutes ago, ChameleonBro said:

3. You mean as in because of the AoE effect enemies that have been Banished will be Unbanished once again ? That can easily be fixed by putting a timer of not being able to unbanish the Banished enemy until they don't get up, or it can be seen as a way of preventing Limbo from being able to constantly stay in the Rift and just Banish enemies.

Maybe they also did this to prevent him from being immortal, you know, staying in the rift and bringing them into the rift, frozen, to be easily killed.

No counter to that, and no risk at all.

[Eldest89]

25 minutes ago, ChameleonBro said:

Honestly my only problem is not being able to Banish from the Rift Plane. The AoE is perfectly fine, teammates can just roll out and the 3 Bombards behind them will simply fall down giving them more than enough time to react.

well ok but it is so easy to fix so I don't see any reason for not adding a more controllable banish system. It will make Limbo more enjoyable and less frustrating to use and to play with as a team 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Eldest89

[ChameleonBro]

2 minutes ago, Eldest89 said:

well ok but it is so easy to fix so I don't see any reason for not adding a more controllable banish sistem

Exactly. They will DEFINITELY come back to him, they have to since his 3 is currently bugged and doesn't work as intended. Hopefully they listen to their fans and change Banish to work as it used to (keep the AoE effect though, it is really useful) 

[AlaskanWolf]

1 minute ago, ChameleonBro said:

Exactly. They will DEFINITELY come back to him, they have to since his 3 is currently bugged and doesn't work as intended. Hopefully they listen to their fans and change Banish to work as it used to (keep the AoE effect though, it is really useful) 

I think the simplest fix for this is to make it default to (quick press)  single target. And hold for AoE banish 

[Eldest89]

Just now, ChameleonBro said:

Exactly. They will DEFINITELY come back to him, they have to since his 3 is currently bugged and doesn't work as intended. Hopefully they listen to their fans and change Banish to work as it used to (keep the AoE effect though, it is really useful) 

I hope so. The best of the best would be to have banish AoE and single target in order to be more precise when you have to face toph enemies and when you just need to kill a crowd use it AoE 

[ChameleonBro]

1 minute ago, AlaskanWolf said:

I think the simplest fix for this is to make it default to (quick press)  single target. And hold for AoE banish 

I mean I guess that works but it would be kinda clunky and slower, though I think it non the less it would still be good to have. But my main problem really is what I already mentioned, Banish and his Rift Surge being bugged.

[ChameleonBro]

Just like I said in my previous reply I think even though it could be a bit clunky it would be a good idea, it would satisfy both players who like the AoE more than single target and the other way around. Though if there is a crowd and you wanna get only a few enemies (like maybe a heavy gunner and bombard) AoE Banish would be great. 

[AlaskanWolf]

9 minutes ago, ChameleonBro said:

Just like I said in my previous reply I think even though it could be a bit clunky it would be a good idea, it would satisfy both players who like the AoE more than single target and the other way around. Though if there is a crowd and you wanna get only a few enemies (like maybe a heavy gunner and bombard) AoE Banish would be great. 

I feel like it'd be less clunky then a toggle, but I agree it wouldn't be the PERFECT solution... But it'd be easier for DE to implement and thus more likely  to actually happen. 

 

I don't mind the new banish mechanics, but agree that at higher levels you either quit using banish or risk the insta-kill  as it is. So I understand the desire for the old banish too

Edited March 27, 2017 by AlaskanWolf

[Azamagon]

Some more thoughts upon playing Limbo a lot more thoroughly:

Good points:
* Stasis - It is undoubtly fun, in a solo setting.
* Cataclysm - Great as a nuke, and it pairs insanely well with Stasis.
* Rift Dash - After finally getting more used to it, it is actually rather nice.

Bad points:
* Stasis - This ability is something I barely dare to use in multiplayer settings, due to the trolling feel it can have (even if it's unintended). And still, the lack of indicator bothers me.
* Cataclysm - The nuking potential is ... probably too good to have on Limbo. And I still don't like that it dispels Rift Dash
* Banish - I still feel it is currently something you can't use on highlevel play, except to remove enemies from the Rift when Rift Surge has been used first. Which means, it practically never sees any use.
* Rift Surge - Is too niche in its current use. Cataclysm is all you need for his AoE banishing, imo. In fact, Banish + Rift Surge is pretty much just a different form of AoE-banishing to Cataclysm. I.e., they are redundant. And redundancy was partly a reason to revamp his kit (even though, his old kit didn't have REDUNDANCY, just similarities. The new kit ACTUALLY has redundancies). You had 3 ways to put people into the Rift pre-rework. Now you have 4 abilities to deal with it, if you count his passive dash...
* Passive - The lack of movespeed bonus in the Rift (which was removed) hurts his mobility now when he can't use roll as a speed maneuver without getting himself in a harmful position. Reloadspeed bonus is also a bit sad to have lost, but not the worst of losses. The 10 energy per kill is superstrong, but mainly so because of how Cataclysm scales. If Cataclysm didn't scale in such a way, that energybonus would be completely fine. The Rift Tear also seem more annoying than useful to teammates, honestly.

Suggestions:
* Stasis - While fun to mess around with in solo, needs a change in penalty, due to how disruptive it is to your other allies. Considering his passive, I'd say, make it remove a small amount of energy over time (not interrupting energygains though, as it's not a channeled energydrain), with more drain the more enemies are caught. Now you actually have to deal with the enemies you have caught and actually make use of the passive kill-energygain.
* Cataclysm - Cataclysm's damage needs toning down. It's a bit overpowered. I didn't even have a good build on him and could nuke highlevel enemies without any effort, not to mention, from complete safety with Rift Dash.
Also, allow us to interact with consoles, life support, hacking and such if the item and the user are both in the Rift via Cataclysm.
Further, I'd change his Cataclysm augment to make his sphere non-shrinking, along with the time-extending bonus of course.
* Banish - I feel Banish needs to be reverted to how it was (Holdcast can still be some form of AoE-Banish, doesn't matter to me). However, I'd like it to have better synergy with Cataclysm: If you Banish a target which is inside Cataclysm, then that could ragdoll the enemy out of the sphere! This gives it an actual functional use for target control when used in Cataclysm, especially so to manage the new energycosts from Stasis.
* Rift Surge - Revert it, honestly. As boring as it was, it was far more practical. This would partially make up for the loss of Cataclysm's mega-nuking, but would now require Limbo to actually deal with enemies manually, rather than by easy P4TW-methods.
* Passive - Give him an indicator that he has Rift Dash active, and make it not cancelled by Cataclysm. Give him back his movementspeed bonus to make up for the loss that he can't as freely roll for mobility anymore. Possibly give him back the reloadspeed due to the fact that he needs to kill enemies manually in the Rift now. And lastly, remove the Rift Tears?
* EDIT: Rift in general, another idea, to further make up for the loss of Cataclysm losing its nuking power; Maybe make enemies in the Rift take some damage over time?

Edited March 27, 2017 by Azamagon

[AlaskanWolf]

I must have missed something.... But how is rift surge bugged? 

 

Also, his stasis needs a better indication of who is frozen and who I sent. Actually... The new "toned down" rift is harder to differentiate than before 

[Clonmac]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

You're the one who cheered the fact that he's indefinitely invulnerable, not me. 

That's true, I'll admit that I said that and that I mis-worded the point I was making. I was mainly stating it in a way to champion the positives of this rework. I didn't intend for it to be taken that he can literally run around indefinitely invulnerable without consequence. A miscommunication that was caused by my wording, but my point still stands I think.

 

7 minutes ago, ChameleonBro said:

Exactly. They will DEFINITELY come back to him, they have to since his 3 is currently bugged and doesn't work as intended. Hopefully they listen to their fans and change Banish to work as it used to (keep the AoE effect though, it is really useful) 

Do you really think they would give a warframe the ability to walk around permanently invulnerable with the ability to instant freeze groups of enemies and kill them without taking any return fire and without ever being removed from the rift? There is a clear reason why they require you to step outside of the rift now since he has so much power within the rift. You can't have the best of both worlds (old Limbo/new Limbo).

I think this whole entire discussion can be summed up like this:

Old Limbo: Old Limbo was extremely vulnerable both inside and outside the rift. His only option available to him at higher levels was to single target Banish enemies one at a time or utilize gimmicky Life Strike/QT/Rage builds to stay alive. This balanced his ability to remain always in the rift while pulling in enemies from the material plane since, ultimately, he didn't have any advantage over the enemy regardless of the plane Limbo was in aside from an increased damage boost from rift surge. Because Limbo could pull in material plane enemies from within the rift himself, a balance mechanism was in place for Limbo to return to the material plane for ammo replenishment purposes. This process was clunky since the casting times for Rift Walk and his other abilities were to long.

...people complained about Old Limbo not having any advantage over his enemies and that he was extremely vulnerable. People also complained that he couldn't pick up items within the rift.

New Limbo: New Limbo now has a huge advantage over enemies within the rift. He now completely dominates enemies that it are within this dimensional plane that he controls by freezing them in time. New Limbo can also now safely collect ammo from within Cataclysm which makes ammo management much easier. A balance mechanism is now in place that forces Limbo to be in the material plane briefly to banish enemies to the rift plane. Entering and exiting the rift is now much faster and smoother since it is passive to dashing and not an ability. The Banish mechanism can work through walls and around corners and has very forgiving targeting and range.

...people are complaining that Limbo has to take himself out of the rift plane that he completely dominates and essentially can't die in.

 

You see, people what people are essentially advocating for is a warframe that combines the best of both Limbo's without realizing the reasons why both Limbos were designed with balance in mind.

I loved the old Limbo. He was always my favorite warframe. I always spent 99% of my time in the rift. I loved his mechanics. When I heard he was getting reworked, I was nervous that he'd be changed for the worse. Initially in my testing with Limbo, I was very afraid that they ruined him. But, now that I fully understand his new mechanic and have become accustomed to using it, I firmly believe he is in a much better place than he was. I'm not saying he is perfect as is. Any bugs discovered should certainly be fixed and any gimmicky or overpowered damage calculations should be balanced. But I don't think you can objectively state that he isn't way better than he was.

[Gorgikas]

I think it's just the fact that the rift is its own field. Warframe is a co-op game, and when you insert a new character that can basically create their own game within, it hinders that concept of cooperative gameplay. Sure, Limbo can be useful if everyone knows how he works. However, you shouldn't be forced to learn what a warframe does, since it will negatively affect your playstyle just because you don't know how to play with that specific frame. A concept like that could work, but this is Limbo. He is now probably the most complex warframe in the game, which makes him much harder to learn, understand, and play around. I really do like the idea of the rift, but it's like Limbo is playing by himself in most missions, since he is the master of the rift, and only he controls it, meaning allies cannot do anything about it and are left with trusting whoever is playing Limbo. He seems to be a self-centered warframe, having his abilities only reflect upon what he does, on what he chooses to do. This new rework isn't bad, as in, he can still do things very well, it's just that when you are playing with others, Limbo seems to be the only one in control, and he can hinder his allies without even trying.