[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

Man, with all the back and forth I just don't know. All I really want is for the Devs to let me riftwalk without moving (alternatively, if they'd let Rift Dash be mapped to a button that wasn't crouch/roll, that would be tolerable, but I doubt they'll add a controller config option for one specific passive). 

Edited March 27, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[Nezha_Rose]

Sorry, I was really excited to use this magic frame again. Now he's just dumb and clunky. Wasted forma and tennogen.

[DreamsmithJane]

1 hour ago, ChameleonBro said:

change Banish to work as it used to (keep the AoE effect though, it is really useful)

Please, no. The reason it exclusively banishes all targets from Limbo's current plane, aside from, y'know, logic, is that because it is multi-target now, there is a greater need to be certain of what the effects will be, without having the benefit of single-target clarity. It needs to work the same on all of those targets. You can't have a mixed group of enemies all swapping planes at once. They all need to go into one plane. Base it on the current plane of the primary target? Well, then you're forced to cast it on a specific target and not an area, which makes it clunkier. You also have the problem of enemies already in the plane you want them in walking in front of your target and either creating the opposite effect or forcing you to delay your cast and reposition (which might get you killed). You need to know that, after you cast Banish, those enemies cannot shoot you unless you plane shift again. Finally, since Limbo now has unlimited access to the rift, he needs a reason to have to leave it sometimes, which would not happen if Banish could also summon enemies into the rift with him. You can already do that indirectly with Rift Surge. Making Banish both AoE and a toggle, especially in light of his passive, is a terrible idea any way you slice it.

[Trichouette]

1 hour ago, Clonmac said:

...people are complaining that Limbo has to take himself out of the rift plane that he completely dominates and essentially can't die in.

Finally someone understood...

As if devs would allow limbo to banish enemies that are in the material plane while he stays peacefully immortal in his own plane.

Why not ask for a frame that is immortal in the first place, that would be faster

[-WF-Monarch]

So, after playing Limbo a little more I've decided to somewhat edit my first feedback post. Needed changes in my own opinion:

1. While in Rift Walk you're unable to pick up reactant, yet while in the radius of a cataclysm bubble you can. So change 1 should be to allow for Reactant pickup while rift walking WITHOUT having to be in a bubble.

2. The previous version of Limbo allowed for the Banishing of mobs while INSIDE the rift. Now you have to be in the material plane to banish. So change 2 should be to reallow the Banishment of enemies while in Rift Walk.

3. Limbo can be removed from Rift Walk by another Limbo i.e. I was doing Defense and Rift Walked so I could go piss and came back to being dead because I was removed from the rift by a Limbo troll. Now, allowing Stasis and Rift Surge to affect another Limbo's Cataclysm/Rift is fine, but PLEASE make change 3 the prevention of removing another Limbo from the rift. Sometimes people REALLY need to pee.

[Trichouette]

Just now, -WF-Monarch said:

1. While in Rift Walk you're unable to pick up reactant, yet while in the radius of a cataclysm bubble you can. So change 1 should be to allow for Reactant pickup while rift walking WITHOUT having to be in a bubble.

It makes sense because with the bubble, the reactant is IN the rift. With the rift dash only YOU are in the rift.

1 minute ago, -WF-Monarch said:

2. The previous version of Limbo allowed for the Banishing of mobs while INSIDE the rift. Now you have to be in the material plane to banish. So change 2 should be to reallow the Banishment of enemies while in Rift Walk.

That would be way too powerful

1 minute ago, -WF-Monarch said:

3. Limbo can be removed from Rift Walk by another Limbo i.e. I was doing Defense and Rift Walked so I could go piss and came back to being dead because I was removed from the rift by a Limbo troll. Now, allowing Stasis and Rift Surge to affect another Limbo's Cataclysm/Rift is fine, but PLEASE make change 3 the prevention of removing another Limbo from the rift. Sometimes people REALLY need to pee.

That is because cataclysm remove limbo from the rift when it collapses

It has nothing to do with trolling...

[Shadu]

45 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Please, no. The reason it exclusively banishes all targets from Limbo's current plane, aside from, y'know, logic, is that because it is multi-target now, there is a greater need to be certain of what the effects will be, without having the benefit of single-target clarity. It needs to work the same on all of those targets. You can't have a mixed group of enemies all swapping planes at once. They all need to go into one plane. Base it on the current plane of the primary target? Well, then you're forced to cast it on a specific target and not an area, which makes it clunkier. You also have the problem of enemies already in the plane you want them in walking in front of your target and either creating the opposite effect or forcing you to delay your cast and reposition (which might get you killed). You need to know that, after you cast Banish, those enemies cannot shoot you unless you plane shift again. Finally, since Limbo now has unlimited access to the rift, he needs a reason to have to leave it sometimes, which would not happen if Banish could also summon enemies into the rift with him. You can already do that indirectly with Rift Surge. Making Banish both AoE and a toggle, especially in light of his passive, is a terrible idea any way you slice it.

There is an easy fix for the multiplane enemies, which I've already posted before so I don't think that is a valid reason to not make it affect both planes. With the current way banish is the skill is just.. most of the time not worth using and that is absolutely not a good thing when a rework has just been done.

And to those saying "but by going out of the rift you'll at least be at risk! otherwise you'll be invulnerable in the rift constantly" well.. honestly, you're wrong.. you aren't safe in the rift either, you gotta release that stasis at some point and if you don't kill the enemies fast enough with your placed shots or you didn't place them right.. you're dead. So you'll always still be at risk in the rift, you just will have more and better control over it. Granted if you simply melee enemies during stasis then yep you don't run any risk but to me that is a bug, you should not be able to damage enemies with melee while they are in stasis. Now if the damage would be delayed until after stasis ends then it would be fine I think.

[Shadu]

6 minutes ago, -WF-Monarch said:

So, after playing Limbo a little more I've decided to somewhat edit my first feedback post. Needed changes in my own opinion:

1. While in Rift Walk you're unable to pick up reactant, yet while in the radius of a cataclysm bubble you can. So change 1 should be to allow for Reactant pickup while rift walking WITHOUT having to be in a bubble.

2. The previous version of Limbo allowed for the Banishing of mobs while INSIDE the rift. Now you have to be in the material plane to banish. So change 2 should be to reallow the Banishment of enemies while in Rift Walk.

3. Limbo can be removed from Rift Walk by another Limbo i.e. I was doing Defense and Rift Walked so I could go piss and came back to being dead because I was removed from the rift by a Limbo troll. Now, allowing Stasis and Rift Surge to affect another Limbo's Cataclysm/Rift is fine, but PLEASE make change 3 the prevention of removing another Limbo from the rift. Sometimes people REALLY need to pee.

Your number 1 problem also affects ammo and all normal pickups, this is due to cataclysm changing the whole area around you while rift walk is only Limbo itself and not the loot all around that is there for Limbo to take. And with a vacuum around I don't see the problem really with this.

 

About 3, are you sure he didn't just place a cataclysm once and thus forced you out of the rift that way? Granted I still think cataclysm shouldn't remove rift walk after you collapse it if you entered it while being in rift walk.

Edited March 27, 2017 by Shadu

[-WF-Monarch]

1 minute ago, Shadu said:

Your number 1 problem also affects ammo and all normal pickups, this is due to cataclysm changing the whole area around you while rift walk is only Limbo itself and not the loot all around that is there for Limbo to take. And with a vacuum around I don't see the problem really with this.

The ammo thing's not that big of a deal for me considering all I have to do is pop Stasis, then a Cata, then leave the Rift to gather ammo then get right back in there. The issue is mainly for Fissures ONLY. If I Rift Walk, I personally CAN NOT pick up reactant. yet if I'm in the Cataclysm bubble I can. I understand being able to pick up Reactant in the Cataclysm because it's a large area and the change was for coop games, but Rift Walk should allow the pick up of Reactant as well.

 

[Shadu]

2 minutes ago, -WF-Monarch said:

The ammo thing's not that big of a deal for me considering all I have to do is pop Stasis, then a Cata, then leave the Rift to gather ammo then get right back in there. The issue is mainly for Fissures ONLY. If I Rift Walk, I personally CAN NOT pick up reactant. yet if I'm in the Cataclysm bubble I can. I understand being able to pick up Reactant in the Cataclysm because it's a large area and the change was for coop games, but Rift Walk should allow the pick up of Reactant as well.

 

You're saying you use cataclysm to pick up ammo, means you could do the same thing for reactants. However you can pick up those focus bonus things even if you're in the rift so they could surely make it work that way as well. Just not sure if I see the need for it with reactants but that's just my opinion. I guess you find the need for it due to reactant being more spread out compared to ammo being dragged along with vacuum?

Edited March 27, 2017 by Shadu

[Buzkyl]

3 minutes ago, Shadu said:

And to those saying "but by going out of the rift you'll at least be at risk! otherwise you'll be invulnerable in the rift constantly" well.. honestly, you're wrong.. you aren't safe in the rift either, you gotta release that stasis at some point and if you don't kill the enemies fast enough with your placed shots or you didn't place them right.. you're dead. So you'll always still be at risk in the rift, you just will have more and better control over it.

Not really, you're pretty much a Demigod within the rift if you utilize his full skill set. For your situation your answer is...Use rift surge and banish

• Your target is in Stasis, apply rift surge
• If they don't die with your kill shot set up in Stasis, you banish them and cast stasis.
• Because they had rift surge active they are knocked down and flung back into the rift to put back into stasis.

Is it extremely convoluted? Yes, however a situation like that, getting killed in the Rift is due to player error than an issue with banish.

[-WF-Monarch]

Here, I'll put a picture to show what I mean. Below you'll see I'm in Rift Walk, have 4 reactant, and I was standing ON Reactant yet could not pick it up. THAT'S what I think needs to be fixed.

 

 

 

Now, if you pop a Cataclysm bubble over an area WITH Reactant, you'll see that you can pick up Reactant that is IN the bubble. Now, simply Rift walk and try and you'll find that you can't pick it up. What I'm saying is that if you can pick up reactant in a Cataclysm Bubble, you should be able to pick it up while simply Rift Walking seeing as Cataclysm and Rift Walking is the same thing.

.

Edited March 27, 2017 by -WF-Monarch

[Shadu]

11 minutes ago, Buzkyl said:

Not really, you're pretty much a Demigod within the rift if you utilize his full skill set. For your situation your answer is...Use rift surge and banish

• Your target is in Stasis, apply rift surge
• If they don't die with your kill shot set up in Stasis, you banish them and cast stasis.
• Because they had rift surge active they are knocked down and flung back into the rift to put back into stasis.

Is it extremely convoluted? Yes, however a situation like that, getting killed in the Rift is due to player error than an issue with banish.

At high level stuff they will already have targeted you and shot at you during the time you take to banish + stasis again. The safest way would be to instantly cast stasis again after you release it but if you have any travel time on your projectiles they won't hit and during that time they might have already shot you. I've tried it at high level, it's doable certainly, slow as heck currently and risky still.

To Monarch above me, Cataclysm and Rift Walking aren't the same: Cataclysm you transfer everything in your bubble into the rift, this includes pickups like datamasses, powercells, mods, energy balls, ammo, reactants, etc. With Rift Walk you only transfer yourself and your companion to the rift, nothing else. Whether it makes sense for reactants.. no clue, but check my previous post for that.

 

Edited March 27, 2017 by Shadu

[Trichouette]

One thing that could really help with this warframe (other than a mute button that has been suggested hundreds of time I bet) is to allow players to switch song during a mission.

I can't see myself playing octavia for a 30 min survival if I can't switch between different music I already prepared

[AlaskanWolf]

35 minutes ago, -WF-Monarch said:

Here, I'll put a picture to show what I mean. Below you'll see I'm in Rift Walk, have 4 reactant, and I was standing ON Reactant yet could not pick it up. THAT'S what I think needs to be fixed.

 

 

 

Now, if you pop a Cataclysm bubble over an area WITH Reactant, you'll see that you can pick up Reactant that is IN the bubble. Now, simply Rift walk and try and you'll find that you can't pick it up. What I'm saying is that if you can pick up reactant in a Cataclysm Bubble, you should be able to pick it up while simply Rift Walking seeing as Cataclysm and Rift Walking is the same thing.

.

its actually not....

cataclysm is an AoE rift with everything inside it on the same plane of existence for the duration

rift walk is LIMBO sliding into the rift plane and him alone... so being on a different plane from the pickups, it make sense that he cant get them while in the rift alone but can when he bring an entire area into the rift with him

[Frenjo]

Okay, as of the latest fix, Limbo being immune to nullifiers while in the rift was a bug! That evens the playing field a bit.

[-WF-Monarch]

10 minutes ago, AlaskanWolf said:

its actually not....

cataclysm is an AoE rift with everything inside it on the same plane of existence for the duration

rift walk is LIMBO sliding into the rift plane and him alone... so being on a different plane from the pickups, it make sense that he cant get them while in the rift alone but can when he bring an entire area into the rift with him

...I renounce change 1. In all my fluster about that little issue I forgot that. My bad.

[-WF-Monarch]

59 minutes ago, Shadu said:

Your number 1 problem also affects ammo and all normal pickups, this is due to cataclysm changing the whole area around you while rift walk is only Limbo itself and not the loot all around that is there for Limbo to take. And with a vacuum around I don't see the problem really with this.

 

About 3, are you sure he didn't just place a cataclysm once and thus forced you out of the rift that way? Granted I still think cataclysm shouldn't remove rift walk after you collapse it if you entered it while being in rift walk.

No, he was trolling. I revived and noticed he was trying to banish everyone. Which is why I said one Limbo shouldn't be able to bring another out of the rift.

[Yagamilight123]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)Cash201293 said:

Yes Nidus needs time to build stacks but so does Octavia. Her 1 needs time to build dmg. Sure its alot faster than Nidus but its no different. Also if you throw Nidus 2 in the mix to gather all the enemies in the area then stomp em. Its pretty much a nuke ability. Again. They arent so different. 

Put 20 heavy gunners , press start in the cronometer and see what frame take those out first (and a LOT faster ... and with that number nidus even had the advantage of gain stacks easily ) ... there is no worse blind man than the one who doesnt want to see .

Edited March 27, 2017 by Yagamilight123

[Brainwright]

I'm loving the Limbo changes.  Stasis is a wonderful defensive ability.  That's all that needs to be said.  Surge both keeps enemies in the Rift and brings more enemies in.  In this way, it can spread like Saryn's spores, bringing more and more enemies into the Rift as you manipulate your helpless victims.  I even like the way you always leave the Rift on exiting a Cataclysm.  Makes things a little bit more predictable in combat.

My only commentary is on Banish, and how weak it is as a defensive ability.  Cataclysm seems to work well enough as an ability to point and grab enemies, so perhaps Banish can be made to affect an area, something Nidus's first abiltiy?  Honestly, there are a few more abilities I'd like to give that treatment, but that's all I have for now.

[(PSN)rowansprite]

15 minutes ago, Yagamilight123 said:

Put 20 heavy gunners , press start in the cronometer and see what frame take those out first (and a LOT faster ... and with that number nidus even had the advantage of gain stacks easily ) ... there is no worse blind man than the one who doesnt want to see .

Right, but once Nidus has his stacks, he'll be doing it much quicker. Once Octavia's abilities run out, she needs to build them back up again. Nidus has exponential damage gain until he's capped, but when he's capped it's enough to deal with everything including Sortie 3 enemies and higher in seconds. 

Octavia may be faster at first, but give Nidus time and he'll be dealing with them significantly faster and he'll be practically unkillable at the same time. Octavia will not be nearly as tanky.

That's the impression I get in footage of her, anyhow. She really doesn't seem OP to me.

[AlaskanWolf]

Just had a thought with regards to rift dash... 

 

What if hitting roll while not moving pops you in/out of rift IN PLACE? I love the new mechanics and animation, but it is sometimes exceptionally inconvenient to be forced to move. Could also just be me  nitpicking and comparing new Limbo to the old. 

[DreadWarlock]

18 hours ago, Shadu said:

Yes and if you add some strength mods and Rift Torrent you'll be getting a huge damage multiplier as well cataclysm still shrinks. Do know though, this is really annoying to play for your squad mates. It's fine for solo play but do consider squad mates.

It's only annoying for allies that do not know how Stasis works. THere was a Limbo in my team(I was playing Valkyr this time around). And he banished and stopped all enemies around me. Since I was using my trusted and beloved Sibbie, I just had to give each enemy their very own, personal headshot.  Resulting in more than 15 instant kills. Stasis works much better with High damage Crit, Semi-auto /Burst weapons.

I'm loving the Limbo changes.  Stasis is a wonderful defensive ability.  That's all that needs to be said.  Surge both keeps enemies in the Rift and brings more enemies in.  In this way, it can spread like Saryn's spores, bringing more and more enemies into the Rift as you manipulate your helpless victims.  I even like the way you always leave the Rift on exiting a Cataclysm.  Makes things a little bit more predictable in combat.

My only commentary is on Banish, and how weak it is as a defensive ability.  Cataclysm seems to work well enough as an ability to point and grab enemies, so perhaps Banish can be made to affect an area, something Nidus's first abiltiy?  Honestly, there are a few more abilities I'd like to give that treatment, but that's all I have for now.

Here's another piece of advice for Banish, I don't know if it was intentional or not, but you can cancel Banish's animation with a Rift dash, which means that you'll enter the rift at the same time the enemies get banished. If you do this, it's possible to even use Rift Surge and kill the enemies before they get up.

Edited March 27, 2017 by DreadWarlock
Adding a new Quote

[DreadWarlock]

18 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

Actually Rob from AGGP did some research on how the new Cataclysm computes damage and its kind of strange. If you use it on several Lancers, its not gonna kill them but if you have a couple of Heavy Gunners mixed in with those Lancers, it kills all the Lancers but just damages the Heavy Gunners. Its supposed to scale with the number of enemies and the health/shields of the enemies in the bubble. If some enemies are stronger than others, the weaker ones die.

Its still not clear how it works.

Actually, it's not as complicated as it seems. Cataclysm damage comes from a percentage of the HP/shields values of each enemy inside the Rift. So when an enemy with a hell lot of HP steps into Catalysm, that damage will grow a lot. 

[AlaskanWolf]

15 minutes ago, DreadWarlock said:

Actually, it's not as complicated as it seems. Cataclysm damage comes from a percentage of the HP/shields values of each enemy inside the Rift. So when an enemy with a hell lot of HP steps into Catalysm, that damage will grow a lot. 

And that's the genius of the new abilities! Trap as many trash enemies in the rift with a few of the big guys... Then drop RS, pop the cataclysm bubble and presto.... All you have left are the 1 or 2 high hp/armor/shield units AND with RS active, they stay banished while you pop out back on the material plane with (hopefully)  breathing room to set up the next big cataclysm 

 

Edit: this is an oversimplification I know. But it still gets my point and the method across. 

Edited March 27, 2017 by AlaskanWolf