[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Kenoman]

May DE deliver to us all \ ;o ; /

[Clonmac]

21 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

No! Hence why I want limbo to be vulnerable to nullifiers, and want them to change rift walk to have a duration and energy cost again!

EDIT: Will be no less vulnerable than before.

So you want him to have 5 abilities? Not sure how you'd fit that in without getting rid of either Rift Surge (re-worked or not) or Stasis. Room was made for Stasis by moving Rift Walk to a passive. Getting rid of Rift Surge would be a bad idea regardless of whether you think it is bugged or not.

You say that Cataclysm makes Rift Surge obsolete, but I beg to differ. Rift Surge allows me to continuously bring in new enemies without needing to leave the rift. Cataclysm forces me to leave the rift after it expires or I pop it early. There are many situations where I want to continue killing new enemies without being exposed to an angry mob in the material plane. Rift Surge is what allows that to happen. They both have their uses and learning when the right time is to use each one is key to the new Limbo, IMO.

[Frenjo]

Just now, Clonmac said:

So you want him to have 5 abilities? Not sure how you'd fit that in without getting rid of either Rift Surge (re-worked or not) or Stasis. Room was made for Stasis by moving Rift Walk to a passive. Getting rid of Rift Surge would be a bad idea regardless of whether you think it is bugged or not.

You say that Cataclysm makes Rift Surge obsolete, but I beg to differ. Rift Surge allows me to continuously bring in new enemies without needing to leave the rift. Cataclysm forces me to leave the rift after it expires or I pop it early. There are many situations where I want to continue killing new enemies without being exposed to an angry mob in the material plane. Rift Surge is what allows that to happen. They both have their uses and learning when the right time is to use each one is key to the new Limbo, IMO.

Learning their uses and actually putting effort in like before is made obsolete by pressing 2 + 4, and no i'd want them to swap the passive so it applies a timed buff or something.

[devildevil21]

59 minutes ago, Ta10S said:

I'm the one who don't get it.
Same-Plane restriction of banish ruined the knockdown effect of itself. Former banish enable limbo to ground finisher immediately. But now, we need to banish enemies and use rift dash and come close to them, and they don't wait you to come closer.

Oh, just want to add this to your opinion:

 

When you got stasis ON (while no one is at the rift, not even you), if you use banish to get some enemies to the rift, they will get "knocked" and freeze in place, giving you time to get to the enemy and melee finish them.

 

it's weird, but they are considered "knocked down" when they get banished and instantly frozen due to stasis. So... you should check it out, the mechanic is still there, it takes is 2 skills now (well, 3 if you consider the dash to get into the rift).

[Clonmac]

2 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

Learning their uses and actually putting effort in like before is made obsolete by pressing 2 + 4, and no i'd want them to swap the passive so it applies a timed buff or something.

But passives don't cost energy and without an energy cost, there is no downside to using it without consequence regardless of whether there is an expiration on it or not. Combine that with the fact that you're advocating for being able to use Banish bi-directionally, then what you're essentially advocating for is...

a warframe that is nearly impossible to kill!

...seems like I've said that before...

[Frenjo]

1 minute ago, Clonmac said:

But passives don't cost energy and without an energy cost, there is no downside to using it without consequence regardless of whether there is an expiration on it or not. Combine that with the fact that you're advocating for being able to use Banish bi-directionally, then what you're essentially advocating for is...

a warframe that is nearly impossible to kill!

...seems like I've said that before...

No, if they can make a passive into what it is, they can add an energy cost. Stop being smug and actually suggest improvements like i'm attempting rather than shooting people down.

EDIT: Either way, what does an energy cost matter to Limbo, the well of free energy?

Edited March 28, 2017 by Frenjo

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

12 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

So you want him to have 5 abilities?

He has 5 abilities now. Rift Dash is absolutely fundamental to his power set -- it was something so essential that it was a power on its own prior to the rework, and it is (in my opinion) substantially more powerful than the typical benefit of a passive warframe ability. Rift Dash is a power which is always available and costs nothing. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[Clonmac]

7 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

No, if they can make a passive into what it is, they can add an energy cost. Stop being smug and actually suggest improvements like i'm attempting rather than shooting people down.

I'm not being smug. Smug is claiming your suggestion is an improvement rather than just an idea you had. I'm not being smug by simply telling you that making a passive have an energy cost is beyond the mechanics of the game that the developers have put in place. It is clear that they intended for passive abilities to not have energy costs (hence the name). I'm not saying they can't technically do it, I'm saying that if they did it, then it would go against the framework they've build from a game design standpoint. Even the wiki says:

Passives are special traits possessed by Warframes that provide them unique abilities or bonuses without requiring energy. Some Passives are always active regardless of the Warframe's state, while others may only activate upon a condition being satisfied. Passives are unique to each Warframe, and differ between Warframes.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Clonmac

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

Limbo's passive, as said upthread, is actually some sort of energy regen while in the rift or something (on enemies killed in the rift?). So really, he's a 5-power frame, with one zero-energy-cost power.

Edited March 28, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[Frenjo]

1 minute ago, Clonmac said:

I'm not being smug. Smug is claiming your suggestion is an improvement rather than just an idea you had. I'm not being smug by simply telling you that making a passive have an energy cost is beyond the mechanics of the game that the developers have put in place. It is clear that they intended for passive abilities to not have energy costs (hence the name). I'm not saying they can't technically do it, I'm saying that if they did it, then it would go against the framework they've build from a game design standpoint. Even the wiki says:

Passives are special traits possessed by Warframes that provide them unique abilities or bonuses without requiring energy. Some Passives are always active regardless of the Warframe's state, while others may only activate upon a condition being satisfied. Passives are unique to each Warframe, and differ between Warframes.

Then they got themselves into this mess.

[Clonmac]

7 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

He has 5 abilities now. Rift Dash is absolutely fundamental to his power set -- it was something so essential that it was a power on its own prior to the rework, and it is (in my opinion) substantially more powerful than the typical benefit of a passive warframe ability. Rift Dash is a power which is always available and costs nothing. 

5 active abilities is what I was getting at.

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

8 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

5 active abilities is what I was getting at.

I'm not sure what the distinction you're making here is - it may be a matter of semantics, but Rift Dash is essentially an active ability - you trigger it with a button press (just like other powers), and you are in control of when it activates or not. I may just be misunderstanding your point, though. 

[theMongoose]

Everyone's in here going back and forth about Limbo being too new for old players, too advanced for new players, too powerful, nerfed power, etc. I'm just over here enjoying that I get to play my personally favorite frame without feeling like a ball and chain for my team or so niche you could only play him once a week in sortie rescue.

Much like all frames, he will have ups and downs. Ups? Major cc, scaling damage added to cataclysm collapse for big damage, can not be damaged in his happy place, gets dash animation that's stylish and functional, rift surge with augment makes stasis bound enemies easier to kill than a teenager in a horror film, Cataclysm now allows pickups, and you can carry objects in rift.

Downs? One way banish (Not a big deal. Jarring but manageable.), still a squishy frame....That's all I can think of. A small amount of risk for a huge reward. 

No frame is perfect. Some abilities fall by the wayside. Fact is, this was a good rework. And I will be playing Limbo more because of it. 

[Clonmac]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)CannyJack said:

I'm not sure what the distinction you're making here is - it may be a matter of semantics, but Rift Dash is essentially an active ability - you trigger it with a button press (just like other powers), and you are in control of when it activates or not. I may just be misunderstanding your point, though. 

Active abilities are one of your selectable abilities that cost energy and you can mod for. Passive abilities do not cost energy, are always active, and can't be modded.

[DadidJones]

I love it, now people let me limbo and i'm now not a portable defibrillator

Edited March 28, 2017 by DadidJones
Pic didn't show up

[W0wRUUD]

41 minutes ago, Frenjo said:

Learning their uses and actually putting effort in like before is made obsolete by pressing 2 + 4, and no i'd want them to swap the passive so it applies a timed buff or something.

Nah, pressing 3 is still pretty useful, especially with the augment. Getting an extra 500%+ damage will probably never be obsolete.

[Ta10S]

31 minutes ago, devildevil21 said:

When you got stasis ON (while no one is at the rift, not even you), if you use banish to get some enemies to the rift, they will get "knocked" and freeze in place, giving you time to get to the enemy and melee finish them.

 

I know it works and enables to multi ground finish. But it will also work even if the banish is not restricted.  And this way doesn't change the fact that "To ground finish, banish itself is incomplete now." I thought "synergy" is  "Conbining complete abilities makes more great power." ,not "Making complete one by conbining incomplete ones". 

[AlaskanWolf]

11 hours ago, ApocalypticFlameFury said:

I've been a Limbo main since Excalibur had Super Jump. If Limbo could Rift Surge enemies outside the Rift Plane while he's in the Rift Plane, it would mark them to be banished. For example, lets say you dash into the void, use Stasis, then Rift Surge on the enemies around you. THEN banish those surged enemies because they are surged. Just an idea. Also I feel like the new patch that "fixed" Limbo not being able to get taken out the Rift Plane by Nullifiers was wrong to do. He is in a whole new dimension and that mechanic was legit. The Nullifier can't damage you, and you can't damage them. It's fair. What's the harm? Limbo is not a tank or invisible based frame; he should of been able to keep this advantage. It would keep him safe and allow you to plan on how to get rid of the Nullifier without getting gunned down by the surrounding enemies. It was tactical and fun and actually had me thinking. This mechanic needs to be given back to Limbo.

THIS....

 

this much better says what I said in a less eloquent and more angry way. It doesn't make sense for a nullie to be able to pull him from ANOTHER PLANE OF EXISTENCE. and removes some strategic elements of his playstyle, since now its best dealt with the way all other frames do it... soma, akstiletto, grakata...etc

[(XBOX)CannyJack]

24 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

Active abilities are one of your selectable abilities that cost energy and you can mod for. Passive abilities do not cost energy, are always active, and can't be modded.

Hm, okay. I guess my issue is that this is a pretty big break from what I perceive as typical regarding warframe passive abilities. Most (if not all) warframes would be fully playable and effective without their passive abilities at all (Nidus' stacks, perhaps, being the exception).

Limbo, on the other hand, I think would not be viable without rift walking -- so that suggests to me that making the Rift Dash into a passive ability is a pretty big "giveaway" to the Limbo warframe. 

Maybe they'll go back and give passive abilities to every warframe that become fundamental to fully effective use of the frame (Nidus and Limbo now being the exemplars), but I wouldn't hold my breath. 

Edited March 28, 2017 by (XB1)CannyJack

[Shadu]

I've grown bored/annoyed with talking about Limbo and how people are being on here, so I kinda just want to leave it to this:

To the devs, these are the changes I personally as a long time Limbo player would love to see.

•  Make Banish work on both planes, no matter what plane you're in. Do this by making it so that if it targets both enemies in the rift and those in the material plane nothing is   done to those that are already in the plane, instead bring those that weren't yet in the rift to the rift. If only targets in the rift were in the AoE area of banish simply bring all those enemies back to the material plane.

Above change would be due to banish not really having a place at the moment as cataclysm does the same but way better and faster. People saying you can just banish through the wall and avoid getting hit that way isn't a viable option and the ability shouldn't be able to banish through walls. Otherwise using banish in the open normally gets you killed by enemies that can easily kill you. If this in turn makes Rift Surge obsolete, making Banish single target again and increasing the radius of Rift Surge might solve that problem. Or just have Banish be a smaller AoE compared to Rift Surge, this also allows us to be a bit more selective about who we bring into the rift. So it would be small area: Banish, medium area: Banish -> Rift Surge -> Banish, big area: Cataclysm. 

 

• Make it so Cataclysm no longer shrinks.
  
  The way Cataclysm is currently means you loose time on the up time of your cataclysm, you might have a 30 second cataclysm ability but in reality you already recast it after 20 seconds due to the amount it has shrunken. This also causes it's augment to currently be useless

 

• Cataclysm shouldn't remove Rift Walk when you leave Cataclysm.
  
  Currently when you enter Cataclysm while in Rift Walk and then you either go out of Cataclysm or you let it collapse you'll be taken out of Rift Walk. This isn't a major issue but would be a nice QoL change.

 

• Slightly lower the damage scaling on Cataclysm.
  
  It's great that Cataclysm now has a clearing ability on it's own, but currently it is too strong.

   

• Give Stasis a more noticeable visual effect, so it is easier to see if it is running for allies.
  
  When I'm currently playing with a Limbo in my party and he suddenly has it running, it is with certain weapons really hard to see that it is happening.. only thing you'll notice is that nothing you're shooting at is dying. The feedback basically isn't great.

 

• Enemies affected by Stasis should also not be taking any melee damage while Stasis is running, this damage should be delayed till Stasis is turned off.
  
  Without this change Stasis becomes too likely to be abused with melee weapons and Limbo.

   

• Update the Rift Surge description or fix the ability so it correctly resembles what it should be doing.
  
  Currently the description is different compared to what the skill actually does. Either the description is wrong or the ability is bugged. The description says it should do damage, but it currently does none. The ability is currently mostly useful for the augment - Rift Torrent - and to counter the shrinking of Cataclysm.

I still think Rift Surge isn't a great ability and feels like Banish is mostly this way now so that ability has any use, granted it might very well be bugged in its current state.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Shadu

[Old_King_Belgothia]

Not being able to pull enemies into the rift with me makes Limbo's whole offensive so awkward to the point I don't even want to engage enemies. Also re-nerfing him to be affected by nullies when he's rifted was such a horrible move. I thought that buff (which was apparently a glitch) was the one of the most important changes he needed. I think I'll just drop him until they fix this mess but knowing DE it'll take them another year to add buffs but 24hrs to hand out nerfs. Dead frame.

[Clonmac]

1 hour ago, Shadu said:

I've grown bored/annoyed with talking about Limbo and how people are being on here, so I kinda just want to leave it to this:

To the devs, these are the changes I personally as a long time Limbo player would love to see.

[...snipped...]

I still think Rift Surge isn't a great ability and feels like Banish is mostly this way now so that ability has any use, granted it might very well be bugged in its current state.

Everything you just said in this post would make Limbo immortal and impossible to kill...impossible! There would be absolutely nothing that would be able to kill Limbo with what you are asking. Do you not see that? You'd be able to kill any enemy, regardless of their level, without ever worrying about taking any return fire at all. Limbo could stay in the rift indefinitely (a place he can't take any return fire) without ever worrying about needing to leave it for any reason while being able to pick and choose any enemy he wants and eliminate them without regard.

Some people just want an easy button.

[Skaleek]

Honestly, Limbo is much more powerful than he was, but can still do what he did previously (with a little more nuance). So all in all this limbo rework gets my thumb's up. You accomplished what you set out to do, and you also introduced a very cool way to "stop time" without having it negatively impact other players. Very cleverly implemented imo.

[Shadu]

21 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

Everything you just said in this post would make Limbo immortal and impossible to kill...impossible! There would be absolutely nothing that would be able to kill Limbo with what you are asking. Do you not see that? You'd be able to kill any enemy, regardless of their level, without ever worrying about taking any return fire at all. Limbo could stay in the rift indefinitely (a place he can't take any return fire) without ever worrying about needing to leave it for any reason while being able to pick and choose any enemy he wants and eliminate them without regard.

Some people just want an easy button.

Currently it is: never ever use banish, always just use cataclysm and you have the same exact point.

You're still likely to die in the rift because of your screw ups, not due to random rng and due to how slow the killing speed is this is fine. This is pretty much the same thing as stealth killing, if you do it perfectly right you run absolutely no risk, if you go faster and screw up with the killing so you're found out you'll die. This is the risk that comes with it and this is in no way different. And if you're gonna be saying "but stealth has a duration!"  yes it does, so does stasis and you'll have to release stasis while the enemies are still in the rift to actually kill those that are in the rift. The Limbo then either is in the rift or on the normal plane, in the rift the enemies that didn't die can still kill you and in the normal plane the enemies there can still kill you.

The thing you're proposing doesn't work at all, because what you described a few pages ago is just a complicated way for going about not using cataclysm while it is the way way way better spell for the situation you were describing. Currently the Banish spell is nearly useless and it is better to use Cataclysm in nearly every case. With my proposed change you still risk dying if you screw up and Banish will actually have a use.

The faster you'll go about killing things in the rift with banishing and stasis the more likely you're to screw up and thus more likely to die. I'll adjust one point in my post before, they have to make it so while stasis is running enemies won't take melee damage either and the damage should be delayed till stasis is turned off.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Shadu

[Old_King_Belgothia]

 

38 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

Everything you just said in this post would make Limbo immortal and impossible to kill...impossible! 

You mean aside from Ignis fire, certain traps, hazards, random bullets breaching rift and enemies that are actually tough enough to get up and return fire? No, Limbo isn't invincible. He's just isolated with whichever allies/enemies the player wishes - which is a very slow and calculated way of playing with its own disadvantages. Kinda the point of the frame, no? Oh and you can only banish as long as you have energy. Banish an enemy too high level to deal with? Not enough energy to kick them out of rift? Juggling what should/shouldn't be in the rift, intelligently, is not an easy thing in a game as fast as this.

38 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

without ever worrying about taking any return fire at all.

I've taken lots of hits in the rift with original Limbo.

38 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

Limbo could stay in the rift indefinitely

Not indefinitely since there's panels you need to hack, interact with, elevators, bosses immune to banish, can't pick up anything, open lockers, break objects etc. There's disadvantages to remaining in the rift. More than the examples I gave.

38 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

without ever worrying about needing to leave it for any reason while being able to pick and choose any enemy he wants and eliminate them without regard.

Again, until you run out of energy. Then you have to wait for it to replenish meanwhile Bursas rally, nullifiers close in, alarms start shutting down doors, eximus auras stack, shield drones stack, mines, grenades and rollerballs start to fecking replace the floor, capture targets escape, spy terminals erase, life support runs out, defence pod gets destroyed. Have fun sitting there ready to get turned inside out because you couldn't manage the limbo eco.

38 minutes ago, Clonmac said:

Some people just want an easy button.

Limbo is far from an easy button either originally or with this rework. There are so much better frames for easy mode. Limbo is one of the hardest to control, most tactical Warframes in the game and possibly the most hated when playing with pubs. He requires lots of strategy to get the most out of and really only shows full potential with a team of people using mics (which I've done) which is quite different than almost all frames which are good without any communication. He's slow solo, awkward and in teams and is objectively bad for certain mission types where there are frames objectively good for almost all types.

He doesn't deserve nerfs especially ones that affect his accessibility and utility, the only thing he has going for him and the only reason why anyone would realistically use him outside of being a fanboy.

Edited March 28, 2017 by MrDaylight