[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[ChameleonBro]

22 hours ago, Hemmo67 said:

or simpler way would be to cap how much it can dmg an enemy cuz right now it can insta kill em if u stack enough enemies but lets say we make is so it can only take away 70% of enemies max health (with current way it deals dmg 10% per enemy health is added to dmg pool) it no longer insta kills. everyone should be happy.

right??

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Or they could add damage drop off the higher the range is

[ChameleonBro]

22 hours ago, Xekrin said:

10 energy per kill is freaking ridiculous anyway.  Saryn gets 2 energy from popping spores with a melee while using toxic lash and considering we 1 shot 90% of enemies with melee up to level 150 we are losing out on 4 energy per kill.

Nidus gets energy back but its dependent on hits by a very narrow ability and his efficiency, and the almost required usage of a 2nd ability to ensure hits which means if you miss or run out of energy you are screwed.

Personally I think DE was super nervous about the reception of reworking a (somewhat) beloved frame (by a hardcore select few) that they went way overboard on the perks of the rework to make it more desirable.

Whatever, it won't get fixed, it should have been tweaked by now.

I just can't see DE leaving Cataclysm as it is now. The energy regen is pretty good for Limbo but not broken since you use your abilities a lot. But energy regen on Cataclysm is a big no.

[ChameleonBro]

22 hours ago, Trichouette said:

It's limbo's passive.

Ennemies killed in the rift grant him 10 energy.

 

In my opinion, cataclysm shouldn't have damage scaling.

To me, the uses of cataclysm are :

• Banish an area / objective to defend it
• Banish everything > surge > remove cataclysm, in order to have all enemies stuck in the rift
• Grant limbo a personnal arena

I don't see why limbo should have a nuke, especially since he has pretty much everything unless healing. (which he has, unless for himself)

Yes but you see, without the damage scaling Cataclysm is a very underwhelming ability. It should have scaling but not infinite usage. And I also thought that you exiting the rift after leaving Cataclysm was intentional so that the energy regen wasn't abused by Cataclysm

Edited April 7, 2017 by ChameleonBro

[ChameleonBro]

22 hours ago, Skaleek said:

I thought his passive was the ability to dodge in and out of the rift? At least thats what it says in the abilities UI ingame.

It doesn't say it in the abilities tab but it is a part of the passive :P

[ChameleonBro]

22 hours ago, Cat__Nap said:

There's nothing wrong with him having a nuke, or having it scale. Why  not add more build variety when reworking a frame? The ONLY thing he was used for before was Rescue/Sortie Defense; take away his nuke and you remove one of the added builds from his rework. Does that mean the build should stay as is? No. It's obviously too powerful. But removing its scaling ability would make it useless at mid to high levels, just like every other non-scaling ability.

Equinox can oneshot things, but she's not OP. Know why? She can't spam that oneshot. And do note that she literally presses the same button twice to do this damage - just like Limbo. She just can't use it every 2 seconds. 

I agree with OP - I didn't realize it was giving infinite energy, and that being the case, the ability needs to be the exception to his passive. That might slow it down enough to balance it without ruining its damage dealing capability.

It wouldn't be useless in high level missions without the scaling simply because you need Cataclysm for Stasis, but it would be a very underwhelming ability just like it was before the rework.

[ChameleonBro]

22 hours ago, PsiWarp said:

IMO if they moved the scaling damage to Rift Surge (alongside your idea), that should be sufficient setup and acceptable cost for a nuke of this magnitude. Rift Surge feels lacking, Cataclysm feels overpowered, so combine em to find the balance.

Rift Surge is amazing with the augment, but how do you mean make rift surge scale ? It already gives % boost with the augment. 

[ChameleonBro]

22 hours ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

Not only that. The reworked Limbo actually gains energy by nuking. It takes 100 energy to cast Cataclysm. If it kills 20 enemies, Limbo gets 200 energy back so there's a net gain. I think this is why people spam this ability because... they can literally spam this ability.

Exactly, which is why Cataclysm shouldn't get any benefit from the passive

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

How come DE let's limbo, a CC/utility frame have an ability that has hard scaling damage, but ash who doesn't have anything but damage in his kit(seriously ash has no CC/Utility) doesn't have a hard scaling damage ability? I mean c'mon bladestorm with hard scaling is definitely not OP since it has one of the worst time to kill and stupid high energy cost compared to other abilities.

Edited April 7, 2017 by (XB1)CFE Angry

[ChameleonBro]

Reducing his damage scaling is not the solution. Energy drain is though. Leave his damage scaling as is, but don't let Cataclysms detonation benefit from his Passive.

[ChameleonBro]

22 hours ago, Mypi said:

 

At least the augment is okay, i guess.

 

Okay ? You do realize you can get 500% + damage on average with it right ?

[PsiWarp]

5 minutes ago, ChameleonBro said:

Rift Surge is amazing with the augment, but how do you mean make rift surge scale ? It already gives % boost with the augment. 

I mean, requiring the scaling damage to need both Rift Surge and Cataclysm active. As in, only surged enemies in Cataclysm will take that "10% of remaining shields + health of rift-bound enemies" damage on collapse.

[-N7-Leonhart]

2 minutes ago, ChameleonBro said:

Reducing his damage scaling is not the solution. Energy drain is though. Leave his damage scaling as is, but don't let Cataclysms detonation benefit from his Passive.

The energy cost of a full efficiency build is nothing significant either. And there are many ways energy can be replenished like Zenurik or EV Trinity, so this is not nearly enough. Now, maybe is Limbo were to lose energy for each enemy killed in the Rift, then that may work better.

[ChameleonBro]

It was, than it was fixed, and now it seems like it returned as a bug.

[ChameleonBro]

Just now, PsiWarp said:

I mean, requiring the scaling damage to need both Rift Surge and Cataclysm active. As in, only surged enemies in Cataclysm will take that "10% of remaining shields + health of rift-bound enemies" damage on collapse.

Hmmm, that could be one of the ways to solve the problem.

[ChameleonBro]

1 minute ago, -N7-Leonhart said:

The energy cost of a full efficiency build is nothing significant either. And there are many ways energy can be replenished like Zenurik or EV Trinity, so this is not nearly enough. Now, maybe is Limbo were to lose energy for each enemy killed in the Rift, then that may work better.

Until you get to the point where you can get Zenurik a lot of time will pass anyways, plus using the ability over and over again will drain your energy pretty quickly even if you have max efficiency.

[-N7-Leonhart]

5 hours ago, tylertyrant said:

if you guys wanting nerf cant stand limbo then just leave squad do solo or ask for a tigris prime nerf lul, limbo is finally appealing to the masses after being the least played warframe for like years? now you guys want nerf lol thats $&*&*#(%&.

Or simply ask for nerf so we can play in squads properly, since this is an online game. Comparing Tigris P with the current Cataclysm is like comparing a Lato with Soma P: they can both kill lvl 1 enemies just as fast, but that is not the case for any significant level enemies.

Tigris P may have high single target damage, but it cannot kill all the enemies around in a single key press and it also doesn't have infinite scaling.

[Trichouette]

20 minutes ago, ChameleonBro said:

Yes but you see, without the damage scaling Cataclysm is a very underwhelming ability. It should have scaling but not infinite usage. And I also thought that you exiting the rift after leaving Cataclysm was intentional so that the energy regen wasn't abused by Cataclysm

Underwhelming ? You have your own arena in which nobody can hurt you, and on top of it, it can be used to make a defense objective immortal.

The ability already have so many uses and people want it to be a nuke on top of everything else ? That's nonsense to me...

[Clonmac]

Another simple change that would solve a lot of problems could be to invert Cataclysm from a shrinking globe to a growing one. So when it is first cast, it is at its smallest radius and then it gradually grows until it reaches its maximum radius at the end of its duration.

This would prevent a Limbo from just spamming Cataclysm and then popping it immediately and effectively wiping out a large area. It will also fix a common Limbo complaint that enemies on the perimeter of Cataclysm are popped out of the rift as it shrinks (especially with stasis on). Instead, Cataclysm will slowly envelope enemies on the perimeter as it grows in size. This will also make it more of a devastating explosion when it reaches its end duration when it is at its maximum size and has the most enemies within it. This will encourage Limbo users to wait until it is fully grown before collapsing and spamming it.

To prevent max range/min duration Limbo's from becoming a problem, just make it so that range doesn't affect the minimum starting radius of Cataclysm and have it so that range only applies to the maximum growth range of Cataclysm. That would allow Cataclysm to reach a larger radius in size at its maximum duration, but prevent a Limbo from popping and nuking all enemies immediately in a very large radius. So regardless of Limbo's range percentage, all Cataclysm's start with a radius of say 5 meters and grow from there.

This change would make both Limbo users and non-Limbo users happier. Less spamming of Cataclysm and no more shrinking Cataclysm removing enemies from the rift at the edges.

...also, it just makes more sense for it to grow instead of shrink...

[Music4Therapy]

3 hours ago, -CM-Limbo said:

The infinite duration procs is a bug, don't get used to it, and don't use it as an argument. It's gonna get fixed.

You can't remove the defensive abilities of limbo, it's his core. limbo decides who should fight with him, how and when. trading defense for offense would literally kill limbo for 90% of players.

Removing the scaling damage is also nuts, he's currently, along with nidus and octavia, the only frames whose abilities scale with the enemy. All damage abilities should have at least some scaling factor on them to allow using them on every level, and stop forgetting about them past lvl 100. Scaling is a step on the right direction, not something to be nerfed.

And the energy regeneration is his signature ability, and necessary in a frame that can be so energy intensive. You would punish good players for spammers.

Don't take for granted naramon, zenurik, or the mods Limbo players have. We're discusing the frame here, not it's interactions with focus or weapons. If we did, every frame in the game would be seen as broken.

1) It is not a bug. The ability functions as a 100% slow. Much like Frost's Avalanche or enemies petrified by Atlas, status effects on targets that are frozen/petrified/stopped will last infinitely. Status duration scales with slow. Its why I love running status builds on my Stomp Rhino, his stomp has a 97.5% slow attached to it. As long as melee weapons are able to damage enemies in stasis, the status effects they proc will also be able to do so.

2) I agree, the defensive abilities abilities shouldn't be hit. However, that said, you cannot dispute the fact that his kit is overloaded. He is one of the few frames capable of defending an objective from an infinite amount of gunfire damage (Frost, Volt, Limbo... wall Atlas?) He is one of only 5 frames that has an ability that scales offensively (Nidus, Octavia, Atlas's 1, Ash, and himself) excluding exalted weapons, and he has some of the strongest cc in the entire game, not to mention a self-sustaining energy system that allows him to spam said abilities with a proper build. Which aspect of his kit should be hit? Thats right, his offense. I would be open to bringing back the damage multiplier from his old 3 if we had to have middle ground and attaching it to his current 3 or 4.

3) See above. While I agree that all damage abilities SHOULD scale offensively, DE clearly doesn't see it the same way as there are only 5 frames that currently does so including himself. If they were to make more frames capable of scaling offensively, especially those deemed as offensive frames, I would agree with the current iteration of his 4.... if the rest of his kit wasn't so damn strong. He would still be a top tier frame even if the scaling was removed from his 4. Again, infinite status duration, top tier CC and defensive capabilities.

4) Energy Regeneration is his signature ability. Sending rescue targets into the rift is his signature ability. Being able to defend an objective by placing it in his Cata for an infinite amount of time is his signature ability. I can keep going. The bottom line is, if he is going to continue to have his infinite offensive and defensive potential, he shouldn't be able to fuel himself. He has no need for Trinity as it stands and is, again, capable of mass destruction and invincibility.

5) Don't take focus schools or mods for granted? What tools players have at their disposal should be considered when balancing a game. Every frame being broken is an exaggeration. If DE took more time to consider frame interactions with the tools they have at their disposal we wouldn't have seen a Simulor nerf due to the Simulor+Mirage combo. We wouldn't have had that whole gas damage fiasco with stealth frames. We wouldn't have been gods prior to the Quick Thinking + Rage changes. Etc. Not taking into consideration how abilities/frames/weapons work with eachother is a terrible way to balance a game and is why Warframe runs into so many issues with gamebreaking combos.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[ChameleonBro]

15 minutes ago, Trichouette said:

Underwhelming ? You have your own arena in which nobody can hurt you, and on top of it, it can be used to make a defense objective immortal.

The ability already have so many uses and people want it to be a nuke on top of everything else ? That's nonsense to me...

Or in short, banish an area.

That's why I think it was underwhelming, because you just send an area to the rift

[Music4Therapy]

6 hours ago, D3AD.3ND said:

A lot of the players have been saying that cataclysm has "infinite scaling". The damage scales off of the amount of enemies inside the rift, But for it to scale infinitely shouldn't the cataclysm itself hold infinite amount of enemies? How can something have infinite scaling with finite enemies in the rift?

It scales off of 10% of enemies total hp/shields. Lets assume we have 10 level 9999 corrupted crewman in the Cataclysm, they will die instantly when Limbo pops his 4. Thus, infinite scaling.

[Music4Therapy]

3 hours ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

No please jesus this 1 is terrible, just remove the energy return -From Collapse- because technically hes not in the rift anymore and shouldnt gain back energy from collapse.

 

From collapse sure but from his kit entirely just locks him back into Zenurik due to the energy heavy kit he has which id prefer stay as is.

 

Not really all that arbitrary number does is screw range/ rift torrent over considering he could just viral banish enemies and do generally the same thing. Only difference now is he cant cataclysm due to a random number of enemies he cant count shutting off his cataclysm which is niegh effective suicide.

 

Which falls off like everyone elses abilities,  modifiers only do so much before enemy armor values exceed reasonable killing times vs a shrinking cataclysm bubble. 

This is a direct nerf to cataclysm and not the issues with it.

1) Terrible? I think the fact he scales infinitely offensively and defensively and has top tier CC is broken. Is the jack of all trades, master of many. Something has to give.

2) Many frames run into this issue, that is why Trinity is so popular. However, due to Limbo incredible energy regen, he can infinitely defend an objective while infinitely blowing up level 9999 non-armored enemies so long as they are grouped together for an infinite amount of time. Limbo should instead build efficiency like every other frame that relies on ability usage. You'll find the 2 energy per second from being in the rift is enough to keep up a solid uptime on his stasis, cata, and rift surge.

3) I agree, which is the point. He can still spam Cata and blow up crowds, but he loses a lot of his defensive capabilities. While I agree this is the worst change proposed, again something has to give between his offense and defense.

4) Uhh, a damage multiplier would be amazing to have. Old Str Limbo was capable of some of the best damage numbers in the entire game with his old 3 + Rift Torrent. Damage multipliers also increase the damage of status effects, like slash... which does finisher damage. That would be amazing with his current kit due to the fact status effects last forever on enemies in stasis. And while it is a nerf a cataclysm's room wiping potential, its a massive buff to his single target potential for the aforementioned reasons, which fits his theme better than spamming Cataclysm.

[Trichouette]

17 minutes ago, ChameleonBro said:

Or in short, banish an area.

That's why I think it was underwhelming, because you just send an area to the rift

which has plenty of uses, especially now with surge & stasis.

[(PSN)psycofang]

12 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

1) Terrible? I think the fact he scales infinitely offensively and defensively and has top tier CC is broken. Is the jack of all trades, master of many. Something has to give.

Its not top tier if a team mate decides to break it, also what other CC in the game forces you to melee enemies?  Most frames have infinitely scaling CC so tbh this argument doesnt even make sense considering equinox, AV/creep frost, path Atlas, Inaros 4 spam, Nova etc all have CC that catches most enemies regardless of level. Covert lethality boosting their BS (especially equinox) to insane levels relatively quickly.

This is all about his 4 and its spam thats all this is and all that needs to be adjusted, to remove a scaling offensive ability is just another step back ward for most frames considering Nidus/Octavia/equinox get away with it just fine.

20 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Many frames run into this issue, that is why Trinity is so popular. However, due to Limbo incredible energy regen, he can infinitely defend an objective while infinitely blowing up level 9999 non-armored enemies so long as they are grouped together for an infinite amount of time. Limbo should instead build efficiency like every other frame that relies on ability usage. You'll find the 2 energy per second from being in the rift is enough to keep up a solid uptime on his stasis, cata, and rift surge.

Even with efficiency its not enough with how often youll be banish chaining targets when stasis is or isnt needed and surge uptime mixed with cata already costing 150 at 80% efficiency + zenurik you run out of energy relatively quickly without the 10 energy per kill. 2EN/s isnt enough for repeated, and rapid, resets on cata, surge and banish mashing.

 

24 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

3) I agree, which is the point. He can still spam Cata and blow up crowds, but he loses a lot of his defensive capabilities. While I agree this is the worst change proposed, again something has to give between his offense and defense.

 

Take away energy return on cataclysm detonation or invert how cataclysm spreads (outward instead of in), tie the scaling strength to power strength theres a number of less damaging things that can be done to drastically reduce the mashing.

 

26 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

 

4) Uhh, a damage multiplier would be amazing to have. Old Str Limbo was capable of some of the best damage numbers in the entire game with his old 3 + Rift Torrent. Damage multipliers also increase the damage of status effects, like slash... which does finisher damage. That would be amazing with his current kit due to the fact status effects last forever on enemies in stasis. And while it is a nerf a cataclysm's room wiping potential, its a massive buff to his single target potential for the aforementioned reasons, which fits his theme better than spamming Cataclysm.

Damage multipliers fall off drastically after a certain point rendering only slash a viable method via camping in stasis to help the bleed along and tbh thats boring a hell.

May as well just meta destreza/galatine p as you do it.

Keeping the scaling yet restricting it to certain builds at least lets limbo bring whatever he wants.

 

Yes str limbo was 1 of the best dps in the game but it fell off drastically in the face of level growth enemies, in comparison to say Nidus or Equinox whos damage scaled upwards. Especially a CL-sleep-maim equinox which costs far less energy in return for the insane damage gain. 

 

[Music4Therapy]

29 minutes ago, (PS4)psycofang said:

Its not top tier if a team mate decides to break it, also what other CC in the game forces you to melee enemies?  Most frames have infinitely scaling CC so tbh this argument doesnt even make sense considering equinox, AV/creep frost, path Atlas, Inaros 4 spam, Nova etc all have CC that catches most enemies regardless of level. Covert lethality boosting their BS (especially equinox) to insane levels relatively quickly.

This is all about his 4 and its spam thats all this is and all that needs to be adjusted, to remove a scaling offensive ability is just another step back ward for most frames considering Nidus/Octavia/equinox get away with it just fine.

Even with efficiency its not enough with how often youll be banish chaining targets when stasis is or isnt needed and surge uptime mixed with cata already costing 150 at 80% efficiency + zenurik you run out of energy relatively quickly without the 10 energy per kill. 2EN/s isnt enough for repeated, and rapid, resets on cata, surge and banish mashing.

 

Take away energy return on cataclysm detonation or invert how cataclysm spreads (outward instead of in), tie the scaling strength to power strength theres a number of less damaging things that can be done to drastically reduce the mashing.

 

Damage multipliers fall off drastically after a certain point rendering only slash a viable method via camping in stasis to help the bleed along and tbh thats boring a hell.

May as well just meta destreza/galatine p as you do it.

Keeping the scaling yet restricting it to certain builds at least lets limbo bring whatever he wants.

 

Yes str limbo was 1 of the best dps in the game but it fell off drastically in the face of level growth enemies, in comparison to say Nidus or Equinox whos damage scaled upwards. Especially a CL-sleep-maim equinox which costs far less energy in return for the insane damage gain. 

 

1) I mention his CC because I'm looking at his kit as a whole. Is stasis great on its own? Is cataclysm great on its own? etc... The fact that he has so much scaling in so many different areas makes his kit as a whole overloaded. The biggest issue Limbo ran into before was that due to his lack of CC he would die instantly as soon as something walked into his cat and fired their weapon at him, that problem no longer exists.

Look at other frames. Only 3 other frames are capable of placing a barrier that is capable of infinitely defending an objective; Frost, Volt, and Atlas. Using those frames as a baseline, look at what Limbo is capable compared to them. I think it would be fair to bring back the damage multiplier from his old 3 back and taking away his massive, aoe damage potential.

2) Its not 4 spam that makes him OP. Its the fact that his 4 is capable of so much raw offensive potential coupled with the fact that he has absurd defensive potential AND CC to go along with it. Again, only 3 other frames in the game are capable of defending an objective. He shares a role as them. Its absurd he has great, long range CC (Atlas doesn't), and offensive potential (Frost isn't remotely close to Limbo's offensive potential and Volt, while great offensively, doesn't scale infinitely) He completely outclasses these 3 frames and is without question the best defense frame in the game right now. Also, none of those 3 have ways built into their kit to sustain their own energy despite 2 of those 3 (Volt and Atlas) being extremely energy dependant. Volt and Limbo are my 2 favorite frames, that said how many Volt players do you see make use of the Riot Shield? Aside from myself, I've haven't seen any. It drains so much energy. Same with Atlas's 1. Limbo's kit is just overloaded.

3) I can say with confidence through my gameplay experience so far with Limbo's rework (I've scored ~75k+ kills as Limbo since his rework) that energy is a complete non-issue so long as you aren't spamming cataclysm and losing the 10 energy per enemy killed in the Rift would be a complete non-issue for me. I also run a 170% efficiency build tho. However, I don't believe nerfing that would be necessary if they removed the massive aoe potential from his 4.

4) Although I really like the idea, I don't think it solves the issue of Limbo's kit remaining overloaded. He would still have infinite potential in too many areas.

5) Multipliers of that nature take you very, very deep into late game. Stealth multiplier is 8x and that makes an absolutely massive difference. If Limbo had his massive multiplier back, lets say another 8x damage, that would go a very, very long way and make him capable of numbers few, if any, other frames could match... but it wouldn't be wiping out rooms at a time. Coupled with status, those are pre-nerf gas/slash proc type numbers.

6) To the final point, Nidus and Equinox. Day Form Equinox lacks CC and defensive scaling and takes time/effort to build his damage for his 4, and neither form of Equinox scales infinitely defensively or is capable of defending an objective. Nidus lacks the ability to defend an objective, Limbo is capable of outdamaging Nidus by a long shot while simultaneously defending an objective and keeping all enemies around him CC'd. Limbo has too much in his kit.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Music4Therapy