[Update 20] Limbo Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Blacque]

I haven not posted in the while and I'm sorry.  I know I've been missed.  As always I lay my bias bare and say to all of you who have an autistic screech fit about TL:DR "What is your problem?  Can you not take a few moments to read words?  Seriously it's like maybe five minutes, FIVE minutes!?  You could spend five minutes worse ways you know!  I bet you spent more than that on your stupid mobile phones and your Ipudz, and your vidya.  You kids and your short attention span make me want to punch kittens into babies!" 

 

As always here is my big fat bias for DE. I love the game and I love DE.  Love does not mean I sit idly by while bad things happen.  If I think DE has made an error I say something because loving something means you want what's best for it.  Sometimes you want to hug it as well.  DE deserves hugs for the Limbo rework... I think?

Now to the point.  With that aside here's my thought on the circumstances.  Limbo was a fan favorite of mine since his introduction into Warframe.  A frame with a different mechanic that you had to learn and navigate.  I adored him and realized instantly that "Yes I am in luv,"  I could see the annoyance he could bring and did my best to cooperate with my team, using my abilities to compliment because I'm old, wise and full of generous.  I know not everyone does that but not everyone switch Troloports you as Loki amirite?  No comparison?  Okay moving on.

 

This may come off as kind of a defense of the Limbo rework because it kind of is and at the same time is also critical of DE for something.  Communication with The Masses (The title as you can see) has always been important and what I've always cherished about DE is its link to the community.  Now granted none of my ideas get anywhere but hey... it still feels good to get feedback and suggestions and maybe just maybe something will stick, right?  The wealth of work to use Limbo cooperatively is not huge but it feels good to work with a team.  I don't even lament not being able to hit the oxygen (Meanwhile bat$h4t foaming at the mouth kitty berserker can claw fumble buttons while immortal?!).  I think Limbo is in a good place because he's fun to play and can be played with a bit of tactics.  Unfortunately with experience farming (Which will never go away mind you) and cooperation there's not much incentive to play ball with fellow team mates.  It's a bummer.

The thing is that whilst I love the game I also regard DE as a business of people working to put food on their plates.  The Second Dream convinced me of that because (And maybe I'm just sweet on Steve) I saw the stress and worry in their eyes over this big drop.  That expectation was so high and the risk so huge.  It humanized them for me.  The community may not share my view, hell no one might... will? Does?  Words!  However with Nidus, Octavia, Limbo I'm seeing an interesting trend.

Warframes were the GODS of the universe at one point.  At level 1-50 most Warframes can chew through armies of bad solo without breaking a sweat.  I wonder if the the nerf/buff phenomena has become the go to as oppose to a discussion about coordination.  Whilst I usually critique things with an idea of how to better them I can also recognize a shift in the atmosphere.  This is the first time or so it seems that DE is experimenting with Raw Power.  Nidus is a god if you build him right, Octavia? Feel the music, so fun, so deadly so OP!?!?!? Naw she's great.  Limbo?  Maybe DE is working toward something else and the topic should be how the community can better coordinate against and around these changes.  I'm not 100% certain either,  but I wonder if this new shift in tone is heralding an adjustment to the enemies, power, or damage.. of the three point OH variety?  No facts, just conjecture.

I think the Limbo Bomb thing is kind of a bummer as I never saw Limbo as a nuke monster but hey, no one thought Loki could mind control until augment.  Only post this because I wonder if the community might benefit from a bit of internal consideration for the game and the business and exercise a bit of patience.  I prefer to err on the side of buff over nerf for obvious reasons.  Nerf tends to take the fun out of things.  I can handle nerfs because in most ways I'm rarely worried over them.  I don't xp grind, I don't do the meta so that might be a part of it.  I've invested dozens of forma into things only for them to be nerfed and my response "Bummer," but if I invested that much forma into it it's because I loved it for its unique mechanic not simply its damage (Hello Tigris before the shotgun revamp! Double Barrel goodness!).  I KNOW that not everyone thinks that way and I'm not asking anyone to thankfully.  I'm only asking if there's a way to address the community topics with something aside from buff/nerf because if it becomes a kneejerk demand from The Masses we'll lose consistency.  The whims of a few or many will dictate the flow of the game and other players who contribute and participate might very well find themselves left out of the loop.

 

What's the solution? Patience perhaps? Perhaps even a bit of a heads up from DE so this is as much about them as it is the community or (Da Masses).  If we need what was approaching, why the sudden risks, why are we being given so much absurd power to fall in love with, only to fear it's removal?  Opinions and critique is important. If you love something you want to see it flourish.  Through strength and weathering hostilities do we grow stronger and develop a thicker skin.  I'm not saying cut DE slack, by all means put their toes to the fire to bring out their best, but do it in a genuine way.  Critique is just complaint without a solution.  Which is why I haven't really said much about the Limbo Bomb, there is a critique in the wings but I've not formulated the words for how to even address it.  Maybe in time.

 

That's just my two cents chums and chumettes.  I've loved the community of Warframe for a long time.  It won't return my calls but I have high hopes that one day it'll show up with roses and we'll watch a romcom with popcorn.  DE will be out until 11 so we can snuggle pg13 style. 

[Blacque]

Refunding energy to Limbo for his kills in the void isn't that big of a deal to me I suppose.  I like your idea more so because it doesn't involve nerfing.  I think the kneejerk nerf/buff is an issue that has become common practice as of late and doesn't even consider other avenues.  Simplistic mechanics could be implemented to maintain the situation without taking anyone away.  Thinking about the rift as a whole and what its effects are.  I'd propose enemies must be within the rift for at least X amount of seconds up to 20.  For every two seconds one point of energy is refunded on their demise.  The insta-bombing must be coordinated, delayed and planned out with time and spacing being a factor.  I'm not a huge fan of the Limbo bomb but I'm also recognizing I don't do the exp farming and I rarely hang in 7 hour TIV runs.

I will say that the new breed of frames are strong.  They remind me of the true tenno lore of gods on the field.  I'm hoping DE is prodding out the damage adjustments with these powerful frames as a sort of benchmark.  Time will tell.

[kinngrimm]

I love the new in and out rolling from the rift. That is really great, especially for those caught in it which did not want into their in the first place, that combined with the rift left behind where Limbo entered the rift and other therefor may chose to do so too, that is just all pure genius! I also like the the stasis mechanic where bulltets are all at once released, but this might be a bit much for teammates, as they have no indication to the timing of the limbo player how long he would keep stasis active and when he would release it complettly.

So while i am all for giving limbo some love, what i currently witness is partly insane. T1-T4 iwin button pressing, while all others are more or less sitting idly by to get out of the match or well accept fast clearing speed and got on the Limbo train. Limbos themselves stated they averrage 13k affinity while oneself is left with below 1k ... how is this fun not even speaking about fair ^^? I also may have only been trolled their by Limbo players as i don't ahve the platin curretnly to get a lense on my Limbo frame, but i get 2k affinity from weapons i hardly used within those matches ... what ... what.  Those who before kept on playing limbo even though he was disliked, those i particularly feel sad about, as they now too, get to take the blame for the greedy tards rushing in to use the unbalanced issues.

For an informed observation i got my own limbo out, no exilus no potato, Nothing too fancy i guess.

Energy Regeneration / Cunning Drift / Overextended (r4) / Stretch / Fleeting Expertise / Blind Rage (r8) and 2 unused points left

=> 115 efficiency / 40% duration / 235% range / 131% strength

I guess you don't even need that much strength and spamm more often, just focus on range, keep strength even and have nice efficiency. As 10% of the damage i heared comes from health and shield of the enemies, the more you get inside the range of cataclysm the more damage you do. Now this maybe just the starting hype where people got to know this and then stop using this frame in lower tier missions, perhaps it is mainly a frame for T4 and beyond. Which would be fine with me. What i but dispise when i am not playing myself Limbo, is nearly have nothing anymore to do. I run arround collecting S#&$ and that is it.

Edited April 8, 2017 by kinngrimm

[(PSN)Seabastion25]

Limbo just got his rework and you guys want him nerf already? I understand(Just by looking at the nerf limbo) that the cataclysm spam is annoying, stasis is hindering team play and final limbo has another power that players use to troll other players. Next some of guys don't like him and just want to him get nerf for the Laughs. Now on to my thoughts on how to balance limbo out but still keep him top tier!

1. Is the obvious allow player bullets to move in stasis but limbos bullets is still halted by stasis.
2. Have stasis based on power strength and power duration. Now that stasis has power strength included it dictates how many more enemies he can keep halted in it.
3. Have cataclysm based on power strength.

 This is my input on how to balance limbo out and not nerf him. 

[(PSN)Seabastion25]

Limbo is in that position of warframe that Loki is. What I mean by that is you change his key power and his hold kit falls apart. That key power being stasis. To me Limbo was missing another part to his original CC. If limbo didn't have stasis he wouldn't stand a chance in the rift. On top of that Limbo has an armor rating of 65. The frame is squishy. He needs all the CC he can get. I will say yes (by the look of the forum) his cataclysm spam is annoying and it needs to be balanced. Stasis on the other hand is needed for limbo's survivability.

[-CM-NineFingers]

The only thing it needs is to scale from power strength, otherwise it's fine. Keep in mind this ability already costs you 100 energy, and while limbo's potential to regain energy can help you lots, it you build for range and str, you will ditch duration or efficiency (meaning you lose his other 3 abilities or need a longer time to replenish energy), hence the limbo nuker would still be a possibility, but very specialised one.

Personally I don't use him for nuking, I use a minimum range max duration build to keep allies and objectives secure while we all do our business.

[-CM-NineFingers]

2 hours ago, (PS4)Seabastion25 said:

Limbo just got his rework and you guys want him nerf already? I understand(Just by looking at the nerf limbo) that the cataclysm spam is annoying, stasis is hindering team play and final limbo has another power that players use to troll other players. Next some of guys don't like him and just want to him get nerf for the Laughs. Now on to my thoughts on how to balance limbo out but still keep him top tier!

1. Is the obvious allow player bullets to move in stasis but limbos bullets is still halted by stasis.
2. Have stasis based on power strength and power duration. Now that stasis has power strength included it dictates how many more enemies he can keep halted in it.
3. Have cataclysm based on power strength.

 This is my input on how to balance limbo out and not nerf him. 

Except the 3rd option, it's not just a nerf, it's a hard one. Limbo was from the start the godframe for defending objectives, but always lacked the CC stasis gives. Now it's completed, and the changes you suggest would make him a worse vauban (You can't take damage from outside the field, but your bullets will also not work, so you depend on the other frames to kill them for you, something they can already do with abilities or melee).

Every frame should know how to take advantage of other's abilities, such as with nyx, equinox, nidus and vauban. Now they should also learn to play with a limbo. Every frame gives you advantages, just need to learn how to use them in your favor. I mean, Limbo gives you free energy, time to regenerate your shields and damage immunity, what's not to like? Sure it leaves you with melee and abilities, butalso gives a lot of advantages too.

Edited April 8, 2017 by -CM-Limbo

[ChameleonBro]

23 hours ago, Trichouette said:

which has plenty of uses, especially now with surge & stasis.

Yes, but as a singular ability it is (was) underwhelming.

[ChameleonBro]

20 hours ago, AlaskanWolf said:

very well put.

 

People need to stop posting skewed videos of cata nukes in the simulacrum, it only spreads misinformation which, once spread, is hard to kill.

 

and the argument that "all you have to do is enter the rift" is stupid, for reasons quoted above.

 

side note... it seems to me that casting cataclysm and then using RS and THEN collapsing cataclysm does more damage... could someone verify weather or not RS -with Rift Torrent- DMG% buff is added to the cata collapse?

I don't think it adds on to the damage. The only fix Cataclysm needs is not to benefit from the passive aka to not gain energy from enemies killed by the collapse, because infinite nukes is op and isn't an actual nuke.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

14 hours ago, dopey_opi said:

You know, one way we could keep all the limbo players happy with their new toy would be to allow us to make specifications of what we're looking for in matchmaking.  They want to play limbo as-is, fine.  Add a feature that lets us narrow matchmaking parameters on pub missions down by excluding frames we don't want in the party with us.  This type of fix will go well beyond this very problematic Limbo rework, and also allow people to exclude things like Embers on low level fissures, Volts if you don't like getting a speed boost, Nidus if you're trying to avoid getting a cyst on you frame... i mean pick your poison this type of feature would solve it all.

Call it a 'yuck list'.  Hell, you could charge plat for it, and I'd pay it gladly.  There should obviously be some limits - maybe 3 frames per player max that they can exclude from matchmaking.  The logic of it would be simple, when finding a party it would check equipped frames on the prospective party against the player's list and if the check failed, move them onto the next.  Might increase matchmaking times a bit but I won't complain if it solves the frustration of ending up in pubs with limbos.

This is probably the smartest suggestion I've seen. Put some kind of filter on PUG match making. It solves everything.

[Trichouette]

33 minutes ago, ChameleonBro said:

Yes, but as a singular ability it is (was) underwhelming.

Yeah because granting immortality to a defense point is so pathetic as an ability.

[Ditto132]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

This is probably the smartest suggestion I've seen. Put some kind of filter on PUG match making. It solves everything.

I suggested it before since it solve lot of disruptive issues players are having.

On 07/04/2017 at 0:47 AM, Ditto132 said:

What I feel that DE should do is to come up with ways of filtering players of different tier, or Mastery Rank for match-making.
This is to prevent issues such as new players getting confused and avoid spoilers from quest related content and mechanic.
Quest related spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

• New player seeing human coming out of the frame
• hovering human when using focus
• transference mechanic and gameplay introduced from quest
• Rift mechanic from Limbo quest

It is much better to prevent players that yet to reach the required knowledge and content, from participating. Just like how some quests and Sortie require pre-requisite.
This would prevent those players from becoming confused, overhelmed and feel disrupted by the veteran players.
The veteran players would also need not worry about inexperienced players ruining the mission such as a Spy mission when alarm is triggered, ending up leaving and resorting the soloing. Turning the game as good as Single player game when not playing with friends.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

10 minutes ago, Ditto132 said:

I suggested it before since it solve lot of disruptive issues players are having.

And I don't think it'll be that much hard work to implement either. There's already an idea of a filter but its rudimentary like choosing to play with friends only or clan members only. Setting filters based on warframes and weapons you don't want to encounter on a PUG squad might make public matches be more pleasant in general for everyone.

[Ditto132]

1 hour ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

And I don't think it'll be that much hard work to implement either. There's already an idea of a filter but its rudimentary like choosing to play with friends only or clan members only. Setting filters based on warframes and weapons you don't want to encounter on a PUG squad might make public matches be more pleasant in general for everyone.

Implementation might be not be hard, but there can be some implications to be considered.
Things such as friends that you don't want to play with or cannot play with due to filters, because of their use of favorite weapons, frames, or loadouts.
Friends that are newly joined, different Mastery Ranks, quest progressions, latency/pings...
Not to mention that there is the possibility of excluding or ostracizing certain players from ever being able to play in public games.

Take Killing Floor as an example, whenever I enable and set the filters for server searches, I usually find only a couple of games that matches or none.
As there is a list of search result of available games, I could tweak my filters to widen the scope whenever I get no matches.
Unless Warframe got such lobby of games, it is hard to properly tweak the filters.

Nevertheless, I still hope that we would have more options/filters for match-makng in the future.

[dopey_opi]

1 hour ago, Ditto132 said:

Implementation might be not be hard, but there can be some implications to be considered.
Things such as friends that you don't want to play with or cannot play with due to filters, because of their use of favorite weapons, frames, or loadouts.
Friends that are newly joined, different Mastery Ranks, quest progressions, latency/pings...
Not to mention that there is the possibility of excluding or ostracizing certain players from ever being able to play in public games.

Take Killing Floor as an example, whenever I enable and set the filters for server searches, I usually find only a couple of games that matches or none.
As there is a list of search result of available games, I could tweak my filters to widen the scope whenever I get no matches.
Unless Warframe got such lobby of games, it is hard to properly tweak the filters.

Nevertheless, I still hope that we would have more options/filters for match-makng in the future.

This is why i suggested there should be limitations.  3 Frames max per player and no option to limit based on weaponry choice.

[ApocalypticFlameFury]

On 4/6/2017 at 7:38 PM, -N7-Leonhart said:

Not seeing the problem on itself is subjective and fine by all means, but his 4th is definitely a nuke, as it has powerful and infinite scaling.

Hmmm....last time I checked, Limbo is Master of the Void, his 4 is his ULTIMATE ABILITY, and the damage is mitigated by armor. Not only this but have you heard of Saryn? Press 1 to win? Hmm....watch LifeOfRio and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. Limbo is NOT OP. He is POWERFUL. His abilities have good synergy, he CAN'T BANISH from within the Rift, and Cataclysm spam DOES NOT work in end game. Especially in the Void against Corrupted enemies. Only low armor enemies die to it. Low armor enemies get one shotted regardless.....Saryn spores will take them down fast, any other good DPS ability, Nidus with his stomp, Frost with enough power strength can freeze them and have their armor removed for the duration of the freeze and 1 shot them. Cataclysm nuking does not work in end game. People who stay doing low level missions complain about Limbo. Warframes are POWERFUL. A single enemy unless they are some high level Eximus or a Napalm or something, will NOT kill a good player on ANY Warframe. So please. Leave Limbo alone. 

[Music4Therapy]

2 hours ago, ApocalypticFlameFury said:

Hmmm....last time I checked, Limbo is Master of the Void, his 4 is his ULTIMATE ABILITY, and the damage is mitigated by armor. Not only this but have you heard of Saryn? Press 1 to win? Hmm....watch LifeOfRio and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about. Limbo is NOT OP. He is POWERFUL. His abilities have good synergy, he CAN'T BANISH from within the Rift, and Cataclysm spam DOES NOT work in end game. Especially in the Void against Corrupted enemies. Only low armor enemies die to it. Low armor enemies get one shotted regardless.....Saryn spores will take them down fast, any other good DPS ability, Nidus with his stomp, Frost with enough power strength can freeze them and have their armor removed for the duration of the freeze and 1 shot them. Cataclysm nuking does not work in end game. People who stay doing low level missions complain about Limbo. Warframes are POWERFUL. A single enemy unless they are some high level Eximus or a Napalm or something, will NOT kill a good player on ANY Warframe. So please. Leave Limbo alone. 

The game knowledge of someone that states Cataclysm doesn't work end game when it scales off total health is very questionable.

In the same paragraph you state Frost with enough power strength can go around 1 shotting enemies which leads me to continue to believe that you either have a very questionable amount of game knowledge or are fighting low level enemies.

2 hours ago, ApocalypticFlameFury said:

People who stay doing low level missions complain about Limbo.

... or they play Frost evidently. You have no clue what you are talking about and I would advise that you play the game a bit more before you offer your opinion on topics you clearly know nothing about and compare Limbo to frames such as Saryn when they fill completely different roles. Why should a frame that scales infinitely defensively and can defend a target better than any other frame in the game also be capable of map clearing just as well if not better than frames that are meant to deal damage/scale offensively?

Edited April 9, 2017 by Music4Therapy
grammar

[Monolake]

Who has the time to press 4 all the time? so much effort. I like to press 4 once and go get some food.

 

Get over it, this is press4 farming simulator and DE will never make it anything else. Both Limbo rework and bard prove it.

[(PSN)mahoshonenfox]

I just realized why the damage from Limbo's Cataclysm CANNOT be removed or weakened. Its because unlike other warframes who have totally normal CCs, Limbo's CC stops him from using guns. He is virtually restricted to melee. So if the killing potential of his Cataclysm was weakened or removed, the warframe's offensive performance becomes below average due to having abilities that restrict weapon use.

But then someone would say, "fix Stasis so it doesn't stop bullets" and then all it accomplishes is have the nerf ire be focused on Stasis. Stasis would get nerfed and then people would say nerf his passives because he has 2 and most warframes only have 1 passive blah blah blah.

By this point, I don't think he's gonna get nerfed if he can be nerfed to begin with because of how interdependent his powers are. Its been 10 updates since his release and the only thing changed about Limbo is the in game wording of his Rift Surge ability.

[dopey_opi]

1 hour ago, (PS4)mahoshonenfox said:

I just realized why the damage from Limbo's Cataclysm CANNOT be removed or weakened. Its because unlike other warframes who have totally normal CCs, Limbo's CC stops him from using guns. He is virtually restricted to melee. So if the killing potential of his Cataclysm was weakened or removed, the warframe's offensive performance becomes below average due to having abilities that restrict weapon use.

But then someone would say, "fix Stasis so it doesn't stop bullets" and then all it accomplishes is have the nerf ire be focused on Stasis. Stasis would get nerfed and then people would say nerf his passives because he has 2 and most warframes only have 1 passive blah blah blah.

By this point, I don't think he's gonna get nerfed if he can be nerfed to begin with because of how interdependent his powers are. Its been 10 updates since his release and the only thing changed about Limbo is the in game wording of his Rift Surge ability.

The trouble is that Limbo stopping the use of his own guns also stops the use of his teammates' guns in the situation you're describing.  This is one of the ways that Limbo is disruptive to other players.  Limbo being powerful I don't have a problem with; Limbo being able to dictate what I can and cannot do by his ability usage and the amazing arrogance of his playerbase that seem to think that is okay?  That's objectively a problem.  Especially the last part.  It is mind boggling.

[Shadeol]

Instead of having Cataclysm do damage, why not move it to Rift Surge instead? Surged enemies could deal %health damage to all enemies in the Rift when they die. That way, people are incentivized to actually keep their Cataclysm up, Limbo keeps his scaling damage, and his teammates actually get to do something other than shooting at banished enemies.

Also, make it so that Cataclysm doesn't overwrite previously applied Banish effects. Since Rift Surge is going to re-banish enemies, it would be nice if allies within Cataclysm weren't immediately knocked out of the Rift as well.

[Demon.King]

At this point I'm convinced Limbo needs a second rework to make him less intrusive. I'm at a point I get insulted for playing Limbo with a short range stasis build. And I can't stand the Cataclysm spam Limbos any more...

[Demon.King]

At this point I'm convinced Limbo needs a second rework to make him less intrusive. I'm at a point I get insulted for playing Limbo with a short range stasis build. And I can't stand the Cataclysm spam Limbos any more...

[ApocalypticFlameFury]

18 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

The game knowledge of someone that states Cataclysm doesn't work end game when it scales off total health is very questionable.

In the same paragraph you state Frost with enough power strength can go around 1 shotting enemies which leads me to continue to believe that you either have a very questionable amount of game knowledge or are fighting low level enemies.

... or they play Frost evidently. You have no clue what you are talking about and I would advise that you play the game a bit more before you offer your opinion on topics you clearly know nothing about and compare Limbo to frames such as Saryn when they fill completely different roles. Why should a frame that scales infinitely defensively and can defend a target better than any other frame in the game also be capable of map clearing just as well if not better than frames that are meant to deal damage/scale offensively?

Lmfao you are so salty. People like you cause this game to die down. Stop whining. The community wanted him to be good, now he's good. Don't complain about a good rework. I bet this is why they hesitate to touch Hydroid and Oberon. Because people like you are so damn salty and are never satisfied with what they do. Stop whining and complaining for nerfs. Telos Boltace and certain weapons made people whine. Ok that's whatever now. But a SINGLE FRAME? Come on now. Pipe down. Talking about my game knowledge and I need to play the game more. Lmfao.....kid, I have more than 2000 hours on Warframe. Just because your opinion is nasty doesn't mean I'm gonna hastily agree. Learn to accept that this is a game. Nothing is perfect. Limbo doesn't deserve to be nerfed because you aren't good at the game. Look, many other frames are capable of killing fast. It might not be in an instant nuke fashion, but there are other frames that can tear through crowds no problem. And IF Limbo is to get a Cataclysm nerf, what I would suggest the one that Clonmac said about having to wait the whole duration for the full nuke damage. I honestly feel like it should be left alone, but people complain too damn much.

[ApocalypticFlameFury]

On 4/7/2017 at 2:44 AM, Sakatchi said:

Did you know that Cataclysm scales off of health and shields?

Did you know anyone can murder corpus and infested?

Did you know armor counters limbo's cataclysm hard?

Did you also know that basically all of his power comes from an augment?

Did you know this is not a bad thing since he needs to sacrifice a mod slot to actually nuke things?

You now know these things, and now have no reason to complain about limbo's Cataclysm.

I'm really starting to think that one thread about nerf wanters being people who are butt hurt about not scoring top in kills during missions was right, cause this is silly.

Wheres all the threads complaining about stasis, that's the only annoying thing about him really.

You are so damn smart. Please let these people know the truth! 100% agreed couldn't have said this any simpler.