Redeemer, weapon fixes, & general communication

[Sasuda]

As the Redeemer fix is concerned....
Major yikes, this is funny because every single other "Shotgun" now has better changes of being silenced than the Redeemer via Silent Battery. Which means the Redeemer has moved from being completely silent to the most alarming "shotgun" in game. And the from one of the best and most fun stealth weapons to the only 2 melee weapons completely not viable for any stealth purpose. To be clear his slaughters Redeemers, heavier nerf than the Tonkor, and Telos Boltace. Regrets in investing Forma, and Focus lenses.
This is gleaned from a response to a comment on MemeSage's Youtube from a comment from XandyPants. XandyPants Makes some really important points which he also mentioned in his video about the Gas "fix" it's good I really recommend it. Basically some points are made about why it's bad to call this a fix.
(in regard to calling this a fix and bug handling...) I do think having clear communication is absolutely integral, I think there's other issues in addition here that are also very important with nerf and bug fixes. Why was this changed? For the chance you were clever enough to figure you can make an annoying Mastery Test far easier. People can come up with all sorts of appendage reasons to add on to it, but this really is the core reason why. For these tiny moments of the game, the overall use and ability of these weapons has been brutally shot.
This is so that you run the stealth Mastery Ranks as intended but now if you happen to bring either of these 2 weapons into a stealth test you almost automatically lose. And not just if you shoot either. There's a bug that forces you to shoot your Sarpa on respawn if you fail instantly alerting enemies and sometimes wall latching can disable your melee leaving it impossible to complete. Even if this alarming was always intended just having either weapon is a near guaranteed loss in the MR Test currently. This causes a lot frustration that's really harmful to the game. So the benefit now is you can't win by using a method that made the Mastery Test extremely simple, but was that actually a huge problem? You can't use stealth abilities so you still needed to use some level of intelligence/effort to win. I did a number of practice runs. Despite this, you still can lose from bugs that aren't the players fault. Why have those been left broken while this was "fixed" in the first place? This didn't ruin the game, it did make it so there was a clever way to win in a small section which, for many players is already frustrating (for a number of reasons. Bugs, stealth is clunky/doesn't feel fun to begin with currently, poor level design, lack of information and player presentation, inappropriate use of visual effects, various opinions on how the player is set up for failure in the MR Test).
In game development whether something turns out as intended isn't all that important, actually. The priority usually is does it work at all, and then is it fun? Changing things to the way the were intended can actually be less fun in many cases and can detract from the value and experience. Often bugs and quirks are left in because people say well this is functional and is still fun. Sometimes bugs and quirks are good features even. Even if it was decided that the Gunblades were an oversimplifying strategy this was a bad way to handle it. They had most likely noticed the bug and left it in long ago, thinking they wouldn't have to fix it because it was kinda fun/didn't really have an overwhelming effect. But like you said it wasn't ever addressed as a known bug, so as far as players were concerned: it was an intentional feature. This is where what you said comes into play and is completely correct. You have to address bugs as known bugs as soon as you know. You don't have to alter them immediately (or at all) but you have to acknowledge them to communicate to players that you may fix them. Otherwise players are being given an unforeseen "no your strategies are wrong, you can't do that" message. (This really bothers me, and is why it's so frustrating. Telling people that their method of playing is wrong. Maybe that's not the "proper way", but it's a game. Let players have fun.) There's also other simple solutions, like just not allowing players to bring a gunblade into the stealth MR Tests. Localized problem, localized solution. Instead this method had repercussions that reach far outside of MR Tests.
TLDR; Please revert Gunblades, DE. They may not have worked exactly as intended but they were fun. Fix MR Tests in an alternate way.

[Sasuda]

Some related talk of bugs/fixing and what not https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzyWV6Fg2UE

and this one, although it's less direct and less clear, and contains a bit of an over the top attitude (you don't really have to watch it) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SH25c0wbXOc

 

[Hemmo67]

first. dude put some gaps in your text it is painfull to read O_O

2ndly redeemer is a GUN blade GUNS make noice

i really do not see the point of making a this redeemer GUN silent then every other GUN in game make noise -..-

[xS0nico]

I agree about the Sarpa, it needs a fix. 
About the Redeemer...no. You said by yourself "They may not have worked as intended".

[Sasuda]

Just now, xS0nico said:

I agree about the Sarpa, it needs a fix. 
About the Redeemer...no. You said by yourself "They may not have worked as intended".

Missed the point. I was saying how working as intended isn't that important and isn't actually a great reason alone to change something. End result can be good even if not intended.

[DoomFruit]

Honestly, the biggest nerf to the redeemer for me was back when they gave it a forced pre-swing before firing, increased RoF, damage falloff with range, massive screenshake and removed the ability to tighten the cone of fire by aiming first. That killed the weapon for me entirely - making it loud is nothing more than nails in the coffin.

[Rolunde]

Pre-fire-swing does suck.

Honestly, I think literally half the problem with the change to the Redeemer is just that DE called it a "fix" but it was a fix to something that up 'till then, whether it was 'logical' or not, seemed like a Feature to a lot of people. It seemed before to be working as intended.

So I expect that if DE had simply called it a "change" there would be some grumbling but at least some degree less of it.

And as to applying Logic to Gunblades, they're complete nonsense in as much as how we see them in video games.

They're pure Rule of Cool and that is all.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pistol_sword
 

Spoiler

Disadvantages
Pistol swords were not widely used and became uncommon relatively quickly, due to their expense and because instead of getting two weapons in one, one got a heavy pistol and a heavy, off-balance sword, as shown by the poor performance of the Elgin pistol.

 

Now I am 100% fine with having a Final Fantasy Gunblade in my Warframe Arsenal, right next to my zonking huge Buster Sword! ;-)

But since they're pretty much b.s. and everything runs on space magic anyhow, it's not sheer stupidity to have taken the Redeemer at face value as being Silent (despite the roaring boom ).

We've got Hush/Silencer mods for all our other weapons, up to and including our massively explosive launchers!

So again it's not a far stretch to accept the gunblades as being hushed as well.

What's next, we going to have to reload them too?! 

I mean it's not like them not using ammo makes a different amount of since than the noise issues... kek

[DreamsmithJane]

Huh. I missed that in the patch notes, and I didn't even notice the change. #JustBansheeThings

Honestly, it's really goofy that the Redeemer's loud boom was ever considered silent. I'd rather see these weapons able to be equipped and modded as guns, and actually consuming ammo and making noise like other guns. As it is, at least there's a tradeoff for the power they gain over thrown weapons.

[Diarmut]

Um, loud guns, maybe a banshee can help? Just saying if this mastery test is such a big issue, maybe using a Banshee to cheese it could help.

[Rolunde]

27 minutes ago, Diarmut said:

Um, loud guns, maybe a banshee can help? Just saying if this mastery test is such a big issue, maybe using a Banshee to cheese it could help.

Aren't Warframe abilities disabled for that test?

Now it makes me wonder if that includes passives?!

If it does work, great idea. Get it done before next patch where we'll see in the notes:
"Fixed a bug where Warframe passives were not disabled in (stealth mastery test)" heh =p

[Sasuda]

3 hours ago, Rolunde said:

Aren't Warframe abilities disabled for that test?

Now it makes me wonder if that includes passives?!

If it does work, great idea. Get it done before next patch where we'll see in the notes:
"Fixed a bug where Warframe passives were not disabled in (stealth mastery test)" heh =p

It doesn't work, which is fine and besides the point. If they want you to not use them in the MR Tests that's totally fine. Preventing them from being available stealth melee weapons in the entirety of the game is the problem. As noted above, gunblades are designed to be a fun melee tool. No stealth is a massive blow to any melee weapon, especially since they are the loudest, and only weapons in game that can't be silenced. You shouldn't have to rely on a Banshee for Silence especially on a melee.
Again if they don't want gunblades in the MR test the best solution is just to not allow them to be brought in the first place. Similar to Sorties with weapon restrictions.

[Sasuda]

4 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Huh. I missed that in the patch notes, and I didn't even notice the change. #JustBansheeThings

Honestly, it's really goofy that the Redeemer's loud boom was ever considered silent. I'd rather see these weapons able to be equipped and modded as guns, and actually consuming ammo and making noise like other guns. As it is, at least there's a tradeoff for the power they gain over thrown weapons.

So you'd rather see gunlades cut from the game? They'd also be some of the worst guns in that case, as well as more generic MR fodder.
They're a melee class weapon with unique mechanics. Some of the most fun in game. In terms of loud noises, the Attica, Ballistica, swinging around any melee and plenty of "Silent" weapons make lots of noise. Those noises were for the player experience rather than game mechanics. When game mechanics try to follow logic too closely they can end up not being fun. (Which is a lot of why actual stealth isn't fun in Warframe currently.) They were given silent status for functionality in game. There's plenty of things that could be considered just as goofy in the game. It's a game though and the mechanics should be oriented towards enjoyable player experience. Not to mention even if you equip silence mods your Tigris and Explosive Bows still make sounds the player can hear but don't alarm. The Redeemer simply could have been assumed to be silent in the same fashion. Not to mention it's stats claimed it silent.
These aren't thrown weapons and they don't need to be brought down to their level. Thrown weapons are already mostly poor performers among melee weapons, because despite their range they have a lot of downsides. Major upcoming pistol glaive/one hand sword buff is coming though. so you'll be able to shoot and melee with those weapons as well. Except you'll still be silent because you have silent pistols and you have mods to silence any pistols that aren't.
As for power over weapons they weren't especially standing out. They were good but not on par with plenty of other weapons. Stronger than glaives, but Glaives are generally really weak (The Orvius isn't, as far as I know, though.) And functionally (the important part) they aren't like using glaives at all. So why compare them? They were never just silent Guns either. They don't allow much for movement unless using stance combos in which case aiming is a lot of work. They were effective only if you were skilled with them (which is why they're fun).

[DreamsmithJane]

10 minutes ago, Sasuda said:

So you'd rather see gunlades cut from the game?

Well, no. I want "upcoming pistol glaive/one hand sword buff" to include reworking gunblades as a category. Gunblades are perfect for that use case. Being able to fire in the middle of combos without disrupting them would allow a lot more versatility than the current stances, which have shots at fixed points during each combo. The Sarpa could thus allow wide sprays during a swing (if they fix the poor thing's burst fire), as well as point blank bursts against staggered targets. Redeemer fired in time with its swings could have devastating DPS (think Renzokuken, if you're familiar with Final Fantasy 8). An additional benefit is being able to fire without locking yourself into an animation or losing the ability to aim.

For clarity's sake, what I'm suggesting is that one weapon should show up in both your melee list and your secondary list, and equipping the same weapon in both slots would allow you to mod the blade and the gun independently. Gunblades would then use this new equip state, with the only difference being that both secondary and melee are in fact the same weapon. Notably, this would also enable players to restore silent functionality with mods.

20 minutes ago, Sasuda said:

They were given silent status for functionality in game.

I'd say they were silent because DE hadn't yet devised a way for melee weapons not to be silent.

24 minutes ago, Sasuda said:

Not to mention it's stats claimed it silent.

Eh? Since when did any melee weapon even have a "silent" or "alarming" stat in the arsenal? I don't recall that ever being a thing. Lemme look.

...Nope. No such thing. Probably because there's no actual "alternate fire" stat block for the charged shots yet, and there has otherwise been no purpose in mentioning that melee weapons were all silent.

FWIW, Redeemer is actually one of my favourite weapons. I just feel that the current implementation leaves a lot to be desired.

[Madway7]

Only use for it is see now is maybe using it with Saryn and healing return assuming each pellet counts as a hit.

Besides that to get back the stealth multiplier you would have to use Hushed Invisibility Loki.

Because lets face it, this is a shotgun that: 

Can barely crit and can't use Blood Rush effectively anymore. 

Has the age old issue of status/pellet at 10 pellets

Has no access to multishot mods

Does less damage than most if not all shotguns.

 

Only thing it really had was the 8x stealth multiplier

 

Yeah, it still has infinite ammo I suppose. Which is great untill they eventually change that too.

[(XBOX)Godlike13]

What about blinded enemies, does it still get a stealth multiplier against them? 

[Kainosh]

Why so much text?

I see you have only 2 problems :

> Gunblade stealth finishers are not silent.  ( Can be fixed either by removing shots from finishers/muting them OR my adding Silencer mod for gunblades.  You can also GO  Silent Loki or Banshee)

and

> Gunblades are bugged (Wall latch bug, respawn shooting bug....never experienced that one,  sarpa not firin bursts......  Half of these are known and are going to get fixed...sooner or later.)

 

If you have more...Please post them SEPARATELY.   Its really hard to get what you have issues with and HOW would you like it to be fixed.    Mixing it all in one thread is a bad idea.

 

 

[DSpite]

That weapon should have never have been silent in the first place.

We were given a Gunblade with infinite ammo, we were never given a "stealth" weapon, that was a side effect of a mistake. Everyone that has become addicted to that mistake now need to detox, that's all.

[DreamsmithJane]

4 hours ago, Kainosh said:

> Gunblade stealth finishers are not silent.

In all fairness, "stealth finishers" are only performed from behind, and do not fire the gun. Forced melee finishers from the front, as well as ground finishers, do fire the gun.

[Kainosh]

1 hour ago, DreamsmithJane said:

In all fairness, "stealth finishers" are only performed from behind, and do not fire the gun. Forced melee finishers from the front, as well as ground finishers, do fire the gun.

Oh, i dont use gunblades much....  So stealth finishers are silent.   Wait....Why the hustle then? 

Gun part is noisy, Blape part is silent..... Everything as its supposed to be (apart from some bugs that are being fixed already....and infinite ammo thing that bothers only me)

[Sasuda]

On 2017-04-25 at 11:30 PM, DreamsmithJane said:

Well, no. I want "upcoming pistol glaive/one hand sword buff" to include reworking gunblades as a category. Gunblades are perfect for that use case. Being able to fire in the middle of combos without disrupting them would allow a lot more versatility than the current stances, which have shots at fixed points during each combo. The Sarpa could thus allow wide sprays during a swing (if they fix the poor thing's burst fire), as well as point blank bursts against staggered targets. Redeemer fired in time with its swings could have devastating DPS (think Renzokuken, if you're familiar with Final Fantasy 8). An additional benefit is being able to fire without locking yourself into an animation or losing the ability to aim.

For clarity's sake, what I'm suggesting is that one weapon should show up in both your melee list and your secondary list, and equipping the same weapon in both slots would allow you to mod the blade and the gun independently. Gunblades would then use this new equip state, with the only difference being that both secondary and melee are in fact the same weapon. Notably, this would also enable players to restore silent functionality with mods.

I'd say they were silent because DE hadn't yet devised a way for melee weapons not to be silent.

Eh? Since when did any melee weapon even have a "silent" or "alarming" stat in the arsenal? I don't recall that ever being a thing. Lemme look.

...Nope. No such thing. Probably because there's no actual "alternate fire" stat block for the charged shots yet, and there has otherwise been no purpose in mentioning that melee weapons were all silent.

FWIW, Redeemer is actually one of my favourite weapons. I just feel that the current implementation leaves a lot to be desired.

That makes a lot more sense, although reloading a gunblade still seems like it'd be way too clunky. The other thing I see with that is it seems gunblades would be generic as single sword pistol combos would effectively be the same. I get what you're saying and I'm fine with your proposition, that in itself is reasonable.
But even if that was the case, right now in the game is not equipped to handle gunblades not being silent. That's why this is bad. If they are going to be made as moddable pistols then that's when they should be made alarming. Not now when there is no possible way to silence them. They are the only weapons with that problem, that needs to be fixed.