Oberon Feedback 20.3.1 and beyond

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Renewal SHOULD NOT heal shadows, rumblers, minions of any kind.

It should only heal the users pet/sentinel.

Edited May 25, 2017 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[Turtlemancer]

13 hours ago, Blood_Poppy said:

Look at this,

seriously, The effect trigger only once every 90s are an Irony for Oberon and like spitting at Oberon face itself.  my suggestion are low the cooldown to 20 ~ 30 Sec so we can use it regularly. 

Oberon are support + mid healing frame, but you limit his Healing/Support capabilities with ridiculous requirement.

and please, show a symbol/timer for this augment.

 

Excuse me? While I do agree the timer is a bit too long... 20-30 seconds is far to short 60 would be about right and honestly that is the shortest I would ever make it. 

Also their is an indicator. A debuff that looks like a red version of the renewal heal buff will show up on a warframe that has been affected by PhR, which indicates that that tenno cannot be healed by PhR until the debuff timer ends. This cooldown is specific to every tenno meaning that if someone just got healed by PhR and someone dies right after they will still be healed, so long as they have not dies in the last one and a half minutes.

A 20-30s cooldown would be far too powerful.

Oberon still needs tweeks, but the last thing we need is misinformation getting spread around and setting the feedback in the wrong direction.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Turtlemancer

[Gunstray]

Just Make Renewal A Regular Channeled Ability With Set Energy Cost. There Problem Solved!

 

Was That So HARD!?

Edited May 25, 2017 by Gunstray

[Fari]

7 hours ago, [DE]Megan said:

The Energy drain caused by Oberon’s Renewal affecting Nekros’ Shadows of the Dead (and other friendly summons overall) is something we’re currently reviewing. When people first discovered this at launch it was celebrated, but it has quickly turned to a less-than-desired synergy.  
 
As this thread has increased in size and conversations have drifted, many suggestions/concerns have been submerged in the depth. In reviewing this particular thread we just wanted to drop in that we're still reading the discussions to see what sparks any next steps for Oberon. 

Your constructive feedback, as always, is appreciated! 
 

Thing is, healing allies is cool, paying for them isn't. Pretty sure when it first went out and was celebrated the cost didn't ramp up so much/at all

The cost just ramps up too much. If say... it capped out at the cost of healing like 5-6 units but could heal more total than that?

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

Oberon shouldn't even be able to heal shadows because nekros can do that himself.

[giricahunik]

Its only around 5 days to oberon prime, and no news / under developed info about oberon. This is explain why other stuff like Dark Sector got abandoned for very long time, no info, no dev workshop thing . And now, know what we got? a new game man!

Sorry for that, just a bit disapointed , cuz no news  about him past few week like they promised for getting data. So here is my feedback, in suggestion part its option not set.

what i know about the most problematic about him is :

in general is RANGE, ENERGY MANAGEMENT, BENEFIT, FORCED SYNERGY

in spesific :

 

Passive :

Not synergize at all with his ability and currently not benificial with currrent kubrow/kavat states

Smite

 - Don't have proper or "real" synergy with other ability

-   Damage splitted between, and even worst more str more it orb splitted.

Hallowed Ground

- performance issues in HG that drop fps much, and have some casting delay when using 235% power range

- no real benefit to stand there, status immunity, but not immune from eximus effect? whats the point?

- there is no one suggest to give angle thing for this ability

- the range is small for ppl stand together, really crowded, when we try to push it, it eat fps and have delay

- forced synergy with other ability

- crappy animation, if its too hard to make new animation, just bring the old one, the problem from the old one only in the shape, not animation

- no proper explanation about skill in UI, (e.g benefit for us while standing there, etc)

- (IMO) why there is status chance, when it can't proc status other than radiation?

- Hallowed Eruption Augment : no real use, because player need to have as wide as possible of this carpet to improve CC capability + buff ally/ casting iron renewal

Renewal

- No proper explanation in skill UI (e.g. Iron Renewal thing, etc)

- give HoT to summoned ally, that make energy cost insanely high

- while in renewal. health suddenly got eaten much and died suddenly , even without getting hit (usually after getting any status from enemy).  usually happen in JV, renewal HoT dealing vital failing health drain pretty well, but in sudden and random situation, without getting any hit, our health got lethal damage and Phoenix Renewal active

- judging from how armor scale, still need improvement to at least close to damage reduction the other wf ability have

- need a little more initial heal

- forced Synergy for Iron Renewal, from where iron renewal? HG not giving armor buff, just crappy status immunity? nonsense

- from the first reveal, i think this ability range is scale with duration like Nova's Molecular Prime  :>

- The wave animation still hard to notice

Reckoning

- Tiny radius, for skill with have CC potential

- With current animation , health orb on death by reckoning is not suit

- with current skill condition, this is a " quick CC" skill that need to be spammed much, current energy cost is too high with the benefit that offered by this skill, with only about 12s disorient with radiation (can’t be modded), and tiny armor reduction

- Forced Synergy with HG, why we need enemy (that we cant control how they move) to STAND on carpet, and after that we LIFT them up from that carpet and there is NOT much armor reduction with that much effort and energy cost

- Forced synergy with iridated enemies, giving extra damage? when its not able deal enough damage and with more CC potential?

- Hallowed Reckoning Augment : 10s is too short for an AoE that we need to mantain with high energy cost, even with mod

My Suggestion

 

There is a lot of suggestion already, so i just try to give opinion what it should be based on the other frame get and other ppl suggestion. DE always said about synergy so , there it is.

How synergy should be?

 

In my opinion , if we talk about well made synergy there are synergy on Saryn, Limbo , and Nidus. I’ll pick Saryn here.

Synergy start from what the Main Speciality that Warframe have?

 

for Saryn, she has 1st ability Spore, it can inflict Virus to the enemies. Then the other ability and passive improve the effectiveness of her Main Speciality.

Start from passive, she has Potency, it make status effect longer, it help her to mantain Virus spread keep on.

2nd ability Molt, Spore can be casted on it with lower energy cost, and will spread

while explode. 3rd ability Toxic Lash can regain 2 energy each Spore explode.

4th Ability give aditional damage to enemies affected Viral status, (Spore virus inflict viral).

It Synergize each other, thats how synergy should be. yes its cost more effort but it give much better benefit too.

How about Oberon?

 

Currently need proper improvement on his Synergy. about his Main Speciality, IMO his main speciality are 2nd Ability Hallowed Ground and radiation proc. HG itself can Proc Radiation too.

Start from Passive Beastmaster, its give allied pet health, shield, and armor buff +1 instant revive for pet. Not synergize at all and not really worth it with current pet states. In this megthread has a much suggestion that more suited to current state Oberon main speciality, like :

-          gain some energy each iridiated enemy killed

-          have better chance to drop some orb each iridiated enemy killed

-          while standing on Hallowed Ground have tiny energy gain

-          have damage boost for iridiated enemy

-          etc

yes all of it (and the others that i am not mention) is good just choose it. exception for innate rage and guardian derision its only make him more lazy frame IMO.

1st Ability Smite projected orb that inflict Radiation, knocking down and spread puncture to enemy close to targeted enemy. Except from damage split on orb, this ability is very good. about synergy , What benefit it give or get from Hallowed Ground or radiation proc? Nothing! So there is a lot of suggestion that caught my eyes. There it is :

-          while casted on Hallowed Ground energy cost get lowered

-          while casted on Hallowed Ground each enemy affected by Smite got killed will have better chance to drop orb

-          while casted on Hallowed Ground each enemy affected by Smite while got killed give x amount of energy (IMPORTANT)

-          while casted on Hallowed Ground each enemy affected by Smite while got killed will refund x % of energy cost

-          while casted on Hallowed Ground Smite effect last longer (IMPORTANT)

-          Augment: have benefit but not worth it for slot, i dont get suitable feedback about this

2nd ability Hallowed Ground dealing DoT with chance inflict radiation proc. This ability need more benefit while standing on it. I try to mention some reliable suggestion (IMO) :

-          give immunity to eximus effect too! (IMPORTANT)

-          remove angle thing, just make it circle + improve range (IMPORTANT)

-          give armor buff, so its make sense from where Iron Renewal Armor come (IMPORTANT)

-          every ability casted while standing on it will have lower energy cost / energy cost refund by x %

-          Radiation proc attack last longer (duration buff, that can be modded) (IMPORTANT)

-          give Crit Chance and Status Chance buff (IMPORTANT)

-          His ability effect last longer (IMPORTANT)

-          give total damage buff (like rhino)

-          give damage buff to iridiated enemies

-          give x% energy / increase orb drop chance each enemy killed on Hallowed Ground (IMPORTANT)

-          give x% power strength buff

-          give x energy gain

-          lower energy cost cuz we need to spam it much

-          fix performance issues, it eat fps and have delay cast time (IMPORTANT)

-          improve animation or bring back old animation (IMPORTANT)

-          need better explanation in skill UI, for example, give additional text like “give status immunity while standing on it” (IMPORTANT)

-          Augment : useless, when we need to cover much range, i dont get suitable feedback about this

3rd Ability Renewal, give healing over time, also with initial heal. While casted on Hallowed Ground enable Iron Renewal buff, with certain armor. Some suggestion that i think reliable :

-          need better explanation in skill UI, for example, give additional text “while casted on Hallowed Ground will grant Iron Renewal buff ” and “Armor” should be “Iron Renewal Armor” (IMPORTANT)

-          fix summoned minion get HoT, or at least only got initial heal. (IMPORTANT)

-          Fix problem sudden lethal damage (MPORTANT)  

-          give better armor value on Iron renewal because, armor damage reduction scale differently with % damage reduction the other have OR give HoT value better value (IMPORTANT)

-          (IMO) need improvement in animation or just use old animation (IMPORTANT)

-          Augment : Good , there is  feedback to lower the cooldown , 60s is the peak, but still i think its not necessary cuz it only make the whole party like Wukong, and its bad.

4th Ability  Reckoning lift enemy up and slaming them down, and have chance to drop health orb on kill, (while it not able kill anymore in higher level) also have blind effect with certain range. What i understand from how this ability work is, enemies until 15 m will got slammed and iridiated, and enemies 4 meter from the slammed enemies got blinded. So pratically the real CC/disorient duration is still on lift up animation + 12s radiation effect. Some suggestion i think reliable :

-          Give more range like 22-25 m because this skill have a lot CC  potential , so need more coverage (IMPORTANT)

-          Reduce casting cost, we need to cast it much (IMPORTANT)

-          Give armor reduction more percentage and just give it to Reckoning, the reason i tell it before , up there (IMPORTANT)

-          Health orb drop on hit with lower percentage, imo around 10-20% (cuz it hard killing with it) (IMPORTANT)

-          While casted on Hallowed Ground the effect remain longer (IMPORTANT)

-          While casted on Hallowed Ground, enemies will be more vulnerable from damage, with 2x damage multiplier on them  (like molecular prime) can’t be modded (IMPORTANT)

-          Iridiated enemies after get slammed will be more vulnerable from damage, will get 50% more damage, can’t be modded (like rage equinox skill)

-          While casted on hallowed Ground give lower energy cost

-          Augment : give more duration around 15-20s, if possible make the animation can be easier to see/notice (IMPORTANT)

So thats it my feedback, all the suggestion (from other ppl and mine) is what i think reliable to implement , suggestion that i tag (IMPORTANT) in my opinion is really need to be implimented especially for fix suggestion. Thanks for read! Hope get noticed! :>

Edited May 25, 2017 by giricahunik
wrong word

[Madway7]

My suggestions.

Smite:

Make orb damage not split between amount of orbs

Hallowed Ground

Give Hallowed Ground innate armor increase that lasts as long as the Hallowed Ground does (you can only have 1 of this bonus at a time) (remove it from Renewal)

Edit: meaning if you step on Hallowed Ground you get and keep the armor buff for its remaining duration even if you step off it.

Edit: Increase duration of Hallowed Ground

Increase the range and make it into a circle.

Increase the base status chance.

Augment: Change to to something else like gaining energy while on Hallowed Ground maybe? 

Renewal:

Make it cost a single drain instead of per ally. IMO the synergy Nekros is good and should stay, but personally I wouldn't mind if it's removed as long as the general drain is decreased as well.

Augment: Make it 60 seconds instead of 90.

Reckoning:

Make the armor strip innate or make it on irradiated enemies instead and make it strip 50% armor.

Give health orbs a % to spawn on enemies affected instead of enemies killed by it. 

I'm not a fan of "combine abilities for bonus damage" deals, but I suppose it should just stay...

Augment: Increase its duration to 20 - 30 seconds.

 

Synergy:

In regards to synergy I understand what you guys were trying to do, but with Oberons current "theme" revolving around just radiation and some support I don't really think he can get some good synergy going without making the base abilities seem bad without the synergy.

What Oberon has atm I feel is forced synergy, which is instead of making good abilities better, all it's doing is making bad abilities good.

If you guys ever plan to do a complete overhaul of Oberon and changing how his abilities function then I'd suggest looking for synergy there, but for now I don't suggest it.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Madway7

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I think renewal should work like blessing in that it instantly heals the user and everyone in range but then instead of a damege resistance duration like trinity...it has a healing duration. After which time it could be recast.

[Madway7]

13 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

No this is a bad way to fix hallowed ground's usefulness. Renewal getting armor is a good thing since it allows team mobility. Taking that away and putting it back on hallowed ground encourages 'oh you HAVE to stay here.' Hence my suggestion of a damage reduction, or a casting strength increase while on hallowed ground, or refreshing/adding to iron renewal's countdown timer.

In my suggestion I meant that the armor buff would be like it is now, on a timer, just not be tied to Renewal at all, but instead Hallowed Ground alone. So you step on hallowed ground, gain the armor buff for the ramaining duration of Hallowed Ground, even if you step off it.

I kinda wanted to remove that part as I went into a logical debate with myself in how it would make sense since atm I believe the logic is that Renewal transfers the buff and allows you to keep it if you stood on Hallowed Ground, but even that didnt make much sense so I gave up and posted it how I had it at the time.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Madway7

[Alusdrann]

18 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

I don't agree that the synergy is a failure, they added a lot to the frame that he didn't have before and that has caused a nice surge of players that wouldn't have otherwise played or tried him to not only try Oberon but continue to play him due to what he provides. That is a success.

I agree that healing Nekros's minions does take too much energy, though, and should be looked at.

Uh, no they didn't. Renewal has the same functionality with a bit of tweaks, with the added bonus of a defense boost if you cast it on allies standing on Hallowed Ground. Hallowed Ground had its previous defense boost removed. The armor stripping from Reckoning is too small to care about -- the skill is still CC, just as it was before. None of the 'synergy' happens in a way that feels natural.

The synergy was, factually, a full-fledged failure. It needs heavy amounts of work done to it.

[Alusdrann]

6 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

No work is required beyond removing the dependencies entirely. That leaves plenty of time for making hallowed ground the chokepoint ability it feels like it wants to be.

I disagree, to an extent. The original design of HG felt like it was supposed to be a sanctuary of sorts, like a different flavor of Snow Globe. Like players were meant to be inside it, and if enemies were to wander in, they were punished for it. Unfortunately it was never really had the range to make that happen, plus suffered from the requirement of standing on it.

As it is now, it sort-of has the same feel, especially if you pump range. With high enough power range, you can blanket a pretty decently sized room which will give primarily radiation-CC and status immunity on its own. Unfortunately this isn't enough to make the skill really worth using. If they want to keep this design, they need to push it further and make it less fiddly to use.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Alusdrann

[Alusdrann]

27 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

My biggest problem is the ideas I've heard either fall into 'take Renewal's new toy away' which feels spiteful, and 'give damage reduction/armor' which... OK I kinda like it (I suggested it) but I feel it won't fly (Any comments out there development people?)

My biggest issue with some of the ideas I read stem from people seemingly missing the base ideas behind Oberon, which I find odd because to me the underlying design concept is pretty straightforward:

Oberon's overall focus: Team support, primarily through status manipulation (defense boosts, CC). Overall design similar to a standard RPG paladin.

Smite: For targeted use on single powerful targets, to have them turn on their nearby now-weakened allies. The damage scaling bit in the rework pushes this idea further.

Hallowed Ground: A type of sanctuary skill. Reduces player chaos (status immunity and previous defense boost) while increasing enemy chaos (radiation CC).

Renewal: A paladin staple. Healing spell with weaker healing than a full-fledged healer, but with other unique benefits to compensate (bleedout slowdown, defense boost)

Reckoning: Gets much better as the number of surrounding enemies increases, with radiation-CC and the blind-CC for enemies that were initially missed. Also, more chances (theoretically) at health orbs, which would generally be more needed as the number of enemies increases. Seems like it was based off the concept of a divine intervention type of skill, for use when being overwhelmed to turn the tide of the fight.

 

He's not meant to be a healer. He's not meant to be an aggressive damage-dealer. He's not meant to be CC. He's not meant to be a tank. He's meant to be a balance of these.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Alusdrann

[Hyroncore]

20 hours ago, NightmareT12 said:

Thanks Megan.

I'll take the chance to post right now, I've been thinking for a while about all the changes now, I kind of swap positions every now and then -- but ultimately, I feel there's two things that could use some love.

First of all, I believe that Renewal doesn't need an interaction with Hallowed Ground. Synergy is fine, but this one executes poorly. Taking into account we now drain energy constantly and it's limited by range, I believe having the armor on base Renewal wouldn't be a bad thing.

On the other abilities, at first I thought having Oberon on HG should have gotten the benefits on the abilities without need of the enemies being on it -- then I realized, what Scott may be pursuing is to keep the strategic use of Hallowed Ground. So not cast it where you are for bonuses, but on strategic points like doors or spawn points. Thus I personally believe on that front, we're good.

There is, however, still a lack of base Hallowed Ground benefits for allies. Besides Status Clearance, we used to get an armor boost before, which now is on Renewal. First idea was to have something to do with shields (faster regen) but that'd leave Inaros/Nidus out. I'm still wondering what could be good to have here.

As for Shadows, there shouldn't be extra drain from them, thus no healing, HOWEVER, maybe a small benefit for them being in wouldn't be a bad idea. Something like static amount of less Health Decay perhaps? (ie: 0.25 less, so from 2.5% Max HP drain -> 2.25% Max HP drain). Maybe that'd be ask too much though.

Feel free to disagree with me, fellow Tenno :P

EDIT: Can't believe I've missed this: The armor value. 225 for base Oberon (should be the same as Excalibur) and 300 for Prime, please. I mean it.

Could you clarify how the synergy is poor for HG/Iron Renewal? I much prefer this setup as it is good for united teams like the ones I run with? I get that the range problem is an issue but the drain in many of my team setups that I have tried him with have yet to yield any major issues outside 100+ which we dont yet often push.

HG at this point for me is a strategic soft cc with the radproc almost always creating havoc points without needing a nyx. While it isnt reliable in the slightest its alot better then one could have hoped for especially in a few pushed 50+ solos i tried for giggles.

Smite and the other augment infused abilities should not be self targetable though if any were to benefit from that it would be Smite if we were to be able to charge into the secondary fragments kinda like you do with Titania and her 2nd skills buff shadows. I could forsee this being a potential technical difficulty and one they might already be working on but the uses would be a little off? I would prefer scaling be fixed first before changing the augments in all honesty.

Curious what logic your using for oberon having a 225 base armor as his reg version and 300 in prime? Excal has higher armor and from a pure logic point makes sense he is intended to be taken in tight while Oberon is a more mobile fellow and personally for me sits out mid to long range depending on the situation as they shift.

[Hyroncore]

33 minutes ago, Alusdrann said:

I disagree, to an extent. The original design of HG felt like it was supposed to be a sanctuary of sorts, like a different flavor of Snow Globe. Like players were meant to be inside it, and if enemies were to wander in, they were punished for it. Unfortunately it was never really had the range to make that happen, plus suffered from the requirement of standing on it.

As it is now, it sort-of has the same feel, especially if you pump range. With high enough power range, you can blanket a pretty decently sized room which will give primarily radiation-CC and status immunity on its own. Unfortunately this isn't enough to make the skill really worth using. If they want to keep this design, they need to push it further and make it less fiddly to use.

Not sure how prange/ HG isnt useful? There is no fiddly to it and I do appreciate the changes they made through the rework. Keep in mind as later responses to this thread after this one had mentioned he is a paladin and HG offering rad-cc and status immunity with a MUCH MUCH bigger comparable area is along those lines of the original while making prange a lesser issue then it was. 

As I am not good at the math its hard but the old HG used to be even at max prange a columnar type field effect, since the rework i get over 190 degree coverage which in all but the biggest of rooms allows for significant coverage with far less energy cost. Depending on your team set it can be maintained with little effort esspecially with a high Pstr ev pumping you every so often.

What situations do you find it fiddly in currently given the arc nature of the field effect compared to the older HG and keep in mind  if you turn 180 you have near perfect coverage for all bar the center core.

 

[Hyroncore]

5 minutes ago, MarrikBroom said:

Out of all these I think pushing past getting rid of the dependency business (Seriously, just... kill it. It's anti-fun.) I feel that the two powers that need work are Hallowed Ground, and Reckoning.

Smite feels like it's in a good place, though as I have said swap the damage out from a shared pool for secondary projectiles, to a 5% per orb. Literally that's it. And even that is not really needed.

Renewal will be good with the dependency removed to add iron renewal and solving the spawned minion drain issue.

 

Reckoning and Hallowed Ground both feel underwhelming. For me hallowed ground sees use right now as a chokepoint skill. Reckoning... just doens't usually feel worthwhile if I've got renewal up.

You do miss the cc granted by reckoning perhaps? I have found a twin Oberon 1 EV Trinity and your choice of 4th frame can control areas INCREDIBLY effectively especially if your Oberons are dropping HG at strategic chokes as mentioned above. HG was never intended in my eyes to be this insane buff. Look at all the recent reworks including the ones to frames like Saryn and Limbo. They are trying to mitigate 1 button builds and this has been achieved with what they did to Oberon at this time. Coordinated strikes between oberons with reckoning and good prange for large arc Rad-CC can do wonders for crowd control not to mention some of the damage im seeing oberons manage with Reckoning as well.

My biggest issue with Oberon at present is the fact people are ignoring how little Smite does later on. There are people saying make the secondary projectiles do % damage but you need to look at it from the point of avoiding 1 button builds again. If they did that to smite even on a light setting it could end up being devastating in tight confines. While this sounds nice it does make for some problems if your on endless in my mind.

[Hyroncore]

Just now, MarrikBroom said:

No. I'm not looking for DAMAGE on eithr hallowed ground or reckoning. It's just neither feel worth using when I'm activly keeping renewal up. Maybe switching to a static cost for renewal will mitigate that, but as is Oberons' entire kit feels like it 'wants' to be spammed and... that just feels like 'I am going to make up for poor abilities by using them LOTS.'

I never mentioned damage but CROWD CONTROL. The skill as it stands IS designed to be a spammable CC one that doesnt need micromanagment like alot of others or that has some massive cost be it through energy such as a slow nova or banshees sound quake or forced managment like nyx chaos that is kinda hinky if you kill a few and have 1 left.

Please understand that we are talking about a paladin type here not someone who DEALS damage but who helps direct the flow of the fight and as it stands this rework while not final in any terms is alot better then most.

[Alusdrann]

36 minutes ago, Hyroncore said:

Curious what logic your using for oberon having a 225 base armor as his reg version and 300 in prime? Excal has higher armor and from a pure logic point makes sense he is intended to be taken in tight while Oberon is a more mobile fellow and personally for me sits out mid to long range depending on the situation as they shift.

Both Hallowed Ground and Reckoning are clearly designed with close-combat in mind. Hallowed Ground is inherently an immobile skill. A tactic unique to Oberon is to use Electromagnetic Shielding while standing on Hallowed Ground. Oberon inherently benefits from being less-than-mobile and in the heat of things.

30 minutes ago, Hyroncore said:

Not sure how prange/ HG isnt useful? There is no fiddly to it and I do appreciate the changes they made through the rework. Keep in mind as later responses to this thread after this one had mentioned he is a paladin and HG offering rad-cc and status immunity with a MUCH MUCH bigger comparable area is along those lines of the original while making prange a lesser issue then it was. 

As I am not good at the math its hard but the old HG used to be even at max prange a columnar type field effect, since the rework i get over 190 degree coverage which in all but the biggest of rooms allows for significant coverage with far less energy cost. Depending on your team set it can be maintained with little effort esspecially with a high Pstr ev pumping you every so often.

What situations do you find it fiddly in currently given the arc nature of the field effect compared to the older HG and keep in mind  if you turn 180 you have near perfect coverage for all bar the center core.

Lol

I didn't say range HG isn't useful. I said that's the only way to make it even remotely useful. The range on HG is miserable for what it does. Without range changes, it's a 180 degree arc. If you want a circle, you have to cast it twice, which costs extra energy from Oberon's already severely-limited energy reserves if you're using Renewal to any significant extent. Even with double-casting, the radius isn't nearly good enough for what the skill currently does. The 'synergy' effects require their targets to be standing on the surface, not just within the radius, which is especially problematic for Renewal. The shape of HG does not match the shape of the skills that have 'synergy' effects (surely you're familiar with these toddler toys?) If someone stands on environment objects like a Cryopod, they don't get HG bonuses because that's a surface it isn't applied to.

If you don't get it by now, I don't know what else to tell you.

25 minutes ago, Hyroncore said:

They are trying to mitigate 1 button builds and this has been achieved with what they did to Oberon at this time.

Except that is exactly what they did to Oberon. Renewal is the only thing worth building for if you want to bring him to high-end content. The only thing that keeps it from being a true 1-button-build is that you have to use HG to get all of Renewal's effects. As long as Renewal is on, HG is not touched further, because it's just not worth using.

To be fair, though, I did see someone mention they've been able to mod for HG as a mini-nuke build, and mostly ignore Renewal except when healing is absolutely needed. Though, even if that's viable in high level content, it's still a 1-button-build.

I don't intend to be mean, but it really sounds like you're looking at the rework through rose-tinted glasses. Most of us presumably get how Oberon is supposed to feel, but the fact of the matter is that he currently does not play that way.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Alusdrann

[Hyroncore]

1 minute ago, Alusdrann said:

Both Hallowed Ground and Reckoning are clearly designed with close-combat in mind. Hallowed Ground is inherently an immobile skill. A tactic unique to Oberon is to use Electromagnetic Shielding while standing on Hallowed Ground. Oberon inherently benefits from being less-than-mobile and in the heat of things.

Lol

I didn't say range HG isn't useful. I said that's the only way to make it even remotely useful. The range on HG is miserable for what it does. Without range changes, it's a 180 degree arc. If you want a circle, you have to cast it twice, which costs extra energy from Oberon's already severely-limited energy reserves if you're using Renewal to any significant extent. Even with double-casting, the radius isn't nearly good enough for what the skill currently does. The 'synergy' effects require their targets to be standing on the surface, not just within the radius, which is especially problematic for Renewal. The shape of HG does not match the shape of the skills that have 'synergy' effects (surely you're familiar with these toddler toys?)

If you don't get it by now, I don't know what else to tell you.

Except that is exactly what they did to Oberon. Renewal is the only thing worth building for if you want to bring him to high-end content. The only thing that keeps it from being a true 1-button-build is that you have to use HG to get all of Renewal's effects. As long as Renewal is on, HG is not touched further, because it's just not worth using.

Renewal is NOT the only reason to bring him to high-end content. His Reckoning can be cast while falling and has saved teammates of mine in MULTIPLE situations. Most used for me is in void on Mot and falling from upper floor down in the rooms with the trees in the center. I can with my current mods Reckoning bomb enough to save a bleedout and in some cases the rekconing allows a HG/Renewal if the team mate is suitably nearby,

Care to elaborate again I ask you to ELABORATE on how you feel that a skill like HG isnt worthwhile when your playing a team frame not one designed for solo like many others? Curious to see if your upset about this frame being more team oriented then solo because every single thing ive read from you thus far has no grounding in reality.

Do you realise that HG arcs can clip through some terrain like Galleon walls that if placed correctly can provide radprocs on things way before they see you thus slowing em enough for you or your team to handle that which is already engaged? Or that an Oberon with pstr/prange Equinox can between them lock out all bar the biggest void halls with rad and hardstuns? This frame like many others has had some needed QoL but again I fear you are amongst those who dont grasp that these 1 button builds you claim are the only reliable way are just how you PLAY the frame?

I want to see smite changed not HG/Renewal nor Reckoning as it is quite honestly the most underwhelming first skill period unless your looking at Hydroid the one frame that needs a rework more then percieved changes to a frame that has been given a definite breath of fresh air after his rework.

[Music4Therapy]

1 hour ago, Alusdrann said:

Uh, no they didn't. Renewal has the same functionality with a bit of tweaks, with the added bonus of a defense boost if you cast it on allies standing on Hallowed Ground. Hallowed Ground had its previous defense boost removed. The armor stripping from Reckoning is too small to care about -- the skill is still CC, just as it was before. None of the 'synergy' happens in a way that feels natural.

The synergy was, factually, a full-fledged failure. It needs heavy amounts of work done to it.

Renewal being changed to a toggle ability was absolutely MASSIVE for Oberon. It is because of that fact that I'm able to make full use of Renewal + Phoenix Renewal. Because Renewal is a toggle, I can sacrifice duration in my build and focus on str, rng, and eff. Previously, he needed all 4 stats, rage, etc... That change alone is the single reason why I've been able to regularly solo as far as 90 minutes in Mot without Naramon. 

The issues you speak of, basically in TL;DR fashion is that the synergies implemented are clunky. I disagree. I don't believe they are clunky nor do I believe the synergies necessary at all for him to function, Smite/Renewal/Reckoning are all strong on their own. The stripping and flat armor boost is just icing on the cake and require the player to strategically prepare the field to make good use of them. You see clunky, I see that they added a strategic component to their game.

[Music4Therapy]

17 minutes ago, Alusdrann said:

Except that is exactly what they did to Oberon. Renewal is the only thing worth building for if you want to bring him to high-end content. The only thing that keeps it from being a true 1-button-build is that you have to use HG to get all of Renewal's effects. As long as Renewal is on, HG is not touched further, because it's just not worth using.

To be fair, though, I did see someone mention they've been able to mod for HG as a mini-nuke build, and mostly ignore Renewal except when healing is absolutely needed. Though, even if that's viable in high level content, it's still a 1-button-build.

You are 100% wrong here. My build that has had great success smashing sorties and going as deep as 90 minutes solo in Mot without Naramon is an Eff+Rng build. 60% Dur, 170% Eff, 160% Rng, 100% Str. You don't build around Renewal for late game, because late game the flat armor nor the heal will prevent you from being bursted down. Oberon is at his best when he is able to make use of all of his abilities, and what is awesome about Oberon is that unlike most frames, he can use every single ability of his in midair which gives him *much* more mobility.

 

Edit: Read the above post as well. Sorry I split my answer between 2 posts.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[Hyroncore]

1 minute ago, Music4Therapy said:

snip..... he can use every single ability of his in midair which gives him *much* more mobility.

Do people not know this?

[Music4Therapy]

1 minute ago, Hyroncore said:

Do people not know this?

Either they don't or they underrate just how great this is.

 

Edit: Btw just read your last post prior to this one. Lmao, agree with you 100% and lol'd when I saw you made the same point.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[Alusdrann]

38 minutes ago, Hyroncore said:

Renewal is NOT the only reason to bring him to high-end content. His Reckoning can be cast while falling and has saved teammates of mine in MULTIPLE situations. Most used for me is in void on Mot and falling from upper floor down in the rooms with the trees in the center. I can with my current mods Reckoning bomb enough to save a bleedout and in some cases the rekconing allows a HG/Renewal if the team mate is suitably nearby,

Care to elaborate again I ask you to ELABORATE on how you feel that a skill like HG isnt worthwhile when your playing a team frame not one designed for solo like many others? Curious to see if your upset about this frame being more team oriented then solo because every single thing ive read from you thus far has no grounding in reality.

Do you realise that HG arcs can clip through some terrain like Galleon walls that if placed correctly can provide radprocs on things way before they see you thus slowing em enough for you or your team to handle that which is already engaged? Or that an Oberon with pstr/prange Equinox can between them lock out all bar the biggest void halls with rad and hardstuns? This frame like many others has had some needed QoL but again I fear you are amongst those who dont grasp that these 1 button builds you claim are the only reliable way are just how you PLAY the frame?

I want to see smite changed not HG/Renewal nor Reckoning as it is quite honestly the most underwhelming first skill period unless your looking at Hydroid the one frame that needs a rework more then percieved changes to a frame that has been given a definite breath of fresh air after his rework.

Don't have a rack attack. You seemed to have missed some things in my posts:

- I don't play him solo. I play him in teams.
- I primarily play support characters, so Oberon is exactly within my preferred playstyle.
- I use a range-focused build, to enable use of all of his skills. I can tell you from experience this is not nearly as viable as the 1-button-builds I described. I just find it more fun.
- I am aware of literally every use case you just described, and can simultaneously tell you from experience that other support frames do these things significantly better and more reliably. Even Limbo, which is an offensive frame, is currently better at support in a crisis than Oberon.

37 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Renewal being changed to a toggle ability was absolutely MASSIVE for Oberon. It is because of that fact that I'm able to make full use of Renewal + Phoenix Renewal. Because Renewal is a toggle, I can sacrifice duration in my build and focus on str, rng, and eff. Previously, he needed all 4 stats, rage, etc... That change alone is the single reason why I've been able to regularly solo as far as 90 minutes in Mot without Naramon. 

The issues you speak of, basically in TL;DR fashion is that the synergies implemented are clunky. I disagree. I don't believe they are clunky nor do I believe the synergies necessary at all for him to function, Smite/Renewal/Reckoning are all strong on their own. The stripping and flat armor boost is just icing on the cake and require the player to strategically prepare the field to make good use of them. You see clunky, I see that they added a strategic component to their game.

I'm not going to deny that toggling Renewal was a huge improvement, but aside from the defense bonus being changed to a flat value and made mobile, that's about the only significant improvement he got. Duration is less of a requirement for him now, sure, but it can't be completely trashed, because HG still needs it to function, which means Renewal and Reckoning both need it to some degree as well.

The synergies, as they're implemented now, are clunky, but mostly because HG itself is clunky. The Reckoning synergy isn't worth caring about for the most part -- if it happens, nice. If not, oh well. The Renewal synergy on the other hand is pretty crucial, since without it Renewal will sap more of Oberon's already heavily taxed energy reserves. Even with the defense boost applied, Renewal is still a significant energy-sink depending on party composition and skill.

31 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

You are 100% wrong here. My build that has had great success smashing sorties and going as deep as 90 minutes solo in Mot without Naramon is an Eff+Rng build. 60% Dur, 170% Eff, 160% Rng, 100% Str. You don't build around Renewal for late game, because late game the flat armor nor the heal will prevent you from being bursted down.

Phoenix Renewal builds strongly disagree with you. But, either way, yes we all know healing alone isn't enough there. You also need CC. This concept is not unique to Oberon. The difference is that you can get CC from weapons much easier than you can get healing, defense, or instant-resurrection.

31 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

Oberon is at his best when he is able to make use of all of his abilities, and what is awesome about Oberon is that unlike most frames, he can use every single ability of his in midair which gives him *much* more mobility.

Obviously that's the intended design, to use all abilities. Also, hate to burst your bubble dude, but Hallowed Ground definitely requires you to be on the ground to cast it.

As an aside, since you mentioned airborne ability mobility, you really haven't experienced that in it's full glory until you've thoroughly played Limbo.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Alusdrann

[Hyroncore]

8 minutes ago, Alusdrann said:

Don't have a rack attack. You seemed to have missed some things in my posts:

- I don't play him solo. I play him in teams.
- I primarily play support characters, so Oberon is exactly within my preferred playstyle.
- I use a range-focused build, to enable use of all of his skills. I can tell you from experience this is not nearly as viable as the 1-button-builds I described. I just find it more fun.
- I am aware of literally every use case you just described, and can simultaneously tell you from experience that other support frames do these things significantly better and more reliably. Even Limbo, which is an offensive frame, is currently better at support in a crisis than Oberon.

I'm not going to deny that toggling Renewal was a huge improvement, but aside from the defense bonus being changed to a flat value, that's about the only significant improvement he got. Duration is less of a requirement for him now, sure, but it can't be completely trashed, because HG still needs it to function, which means Renewal and Reckoning both need it to some degree as well.

The synergies, as they're implemented now, are clunky, but mostly because HG itself is clunky. The Reckoning synergy isn't worth caring about for the most part -- if it happens, nice. If not, oh well. The Renewal synergy on the other hand is pretty crucial, since without it Renewal will sap more of Oberon's limited energy reserves. Even with the defense boost applied, Renewal is still a significant energy-sink. 

Phoenix Renewal builds strongly disagree with you. But, either way, yes we all know healing alone isn't enough there. You also need CC. This concept is not unique to Oberon. The difference is that you can get CC from weapons much easier than you can get healing, defense, or instant-resurrection.

Obviously that's the intended design, to use all abilities. Also, hate to burst your bubble dude, but Hallowed Ground definitely requires you to be on the ground to cast it.

As an aside, since you mentioned airborone ability mobility, you really haven't experienced that in it's full glory until you've thoroughly played Limbo.

Why are we all of a sudden bringing Limbo into this? That sod of a frame is only good at support due to the rift mechanic. And that is oft abused in pug teamplay as I have had the misfortune of finding last 3 limbos I encountered. I mentioned Limbo after his rework not in a comparison to oberon for support/utility. I would have to see you in action before I drrew conculsions but what I see here frustrates me because there is absolutely no basis for it.

Again Music and I mentioned airborne mobility in the context of how it affects OBERON not comparing it to another frame and Music didnt speciffy oberon directly if i read his post right he said oberon was one of a few with good air skill usage.

The fact you latch so easily onto very irrelevant and easily distorted asides leaves me at a loss and sadly I cant spend more on this thread as the majority of what I have read is the same sadly outside of well and truely rare indepth posts.

EDIT The original point of airborne mobility was regarding RECKONING not HG btw.

EDIT 2 Just the whole you didnt read my post thing is a bit of a laugh mate please read before you start quote snipping me please,

Edited May 25, 2017 by Hyroncore

[Alusdrann]

29 minutes ago, Hyroncore said:

Why are we all of a sudden bringing Limbo into this? That sod of a frame is only good at support due to the rift mechanic. And that is oft abused in pug teamplay as I have had the misfortune of finding last 3 limbos I encountered. I mentioned Limbo after his rework not in a comparison to oberon for support/utility. I would have to see you in action before I drrew conculsions but what I see here frustrates me because there is absolutely no basis for it.

There are other warframes in Warframe, you know. I needed an example, and brought Limbo up because he functionally outshines Oberon when supporting a team in a crisis, despite not being a support frame. Also, that "sod of a frame" is only anything because of the rift mechanic because that's what all of his skills revolve around. Just a reminder.

29 minutes ago, Hyroncore said:

Again Music and I mentioned airborne mobility in the context of how it affects OBERON not comparing it to another frame and Music didnt speciffy oberon directly if i read his post right he said oberon was one of a few with good air skill usage.

I have no idea what you're going on about here. I literally said that Limbo airborne skill usage bit was an aside, for people who like being able to do that. It wasn't an argument for or against anything. And yes, he absolutely specified Oberon directly. Go back and reread it.

29 minutes ago, Hyroncore said:

The fact you latch so easily onto very irrelevant and easily distorted asides leaves me at a loss and sadly I cant spend more on this thread as the majority of what I have read is the same sadly outside of well and truely rare indepth posts.

Again, no idea what you're going on about. It's best to avoid personal attacks when debating things.

29 minutes ago, Hyroncore said:

EDIT The original point of airborne mobility was regarding RECKONING not HG btw.

1 hour ago, Music4Therapy said:

and what is awesome about Oberon is that unlike most frames, he can use every single ability of his in midair which gives him *much* more mobility.

37 minutes ago, Alusdrann said:

hate to burst your bubble dude, but Hallowed Ground definitely requires you to be on the ground to cast it.

It helps to read thoroughly.

29 minutes ago, Hyroncore said:

EDIT 2 Just the whole you didnt read my post thing is a bit of a laugh mate please read before you start quote snipping me please,

I was responding to a WoT that was written, directed at me, under some assumptions about how I play Oberon. So I addressed the premise, and pointed out that I'm aware of that information.

Edited May 25, 2017 by Alusdrann