Oberon Feedback 20.3.1 and beyond

[The_Grimmrock]

Just now, Music4Therapy said:

The energy gain mechanic should be "While Oberon is on Hallowed Ground, each projectile smite creates gives him X energy per hit"

this could certainly be true. its an interesting lever of balance to pull, the issue is still that unlike nidus, who can cast and fail to regain the energy by having too few targets, oberons orbs actively home in on targets, meaning that energy gain is garunteed, which can be an issue for game health, even if we're trying to regen 75 eng for those casts with 2e@14 thats 28, pump it to 3 and you have 42, 2 casts and you have recouped the cost of HG basically covered with a little change from Smite. 

[Koed]

@Urlan You are too hung up on what a warframe is and isn't. Just because a warframe excels in one area does not mean they can't be a JOAT as I have demonstrated with my scores. Oberon doesn't even have a damage buff yet you/people don't hesitate calling him a JOAT. Rhino does EVERYTHING except healing yet you say this:

5 hours ago, Urlan said:

Rhino is a light tank with native armor rather similar to Oberon's and a move to prevent status/damage to himself while his light crowd control elements/damage and a Roar for buffing his damage abilites and thankfully those of his team - its not really an all-rounder but is a flexible and useful kit though it under-performs as enemies out-scale his durability quickly and his damage is low with an emphasis on keeping the enemy from fighting back.

 

"It's not really an all-rounder...." "Light Crowd Control".... Are you bloddy kidding me? Best CC in game, top 3 team buff, top 5 tank ability. Most frames can't do that. Do you know what ALL frames can do? HEEEEEAAAAAAAL. Yes, we all have weapons that can heal. I'll stop here as I can't take anyone serious who calls best CC in game for "light crowd control".

[Music4Therapy]

8 minutes ago, Grimmboski said:

this could certainly be true. its an interesting lever of balance to pull, the issue is still that unlike nidus, who can cast and fail to regain the energy by having too few targets, oberons orbs actively home in on targets, meaning that energy gain is garunteed, which can be an issue for game health, even if we're trying to regen 75 eng for those casts with 2e@14 thats 28, pump it to 3 and you have 42, 2 casts and you have recouped the cost of HG basically covered with a little change from Smite. 

It does help that the range the projectiles reach is capped by range (12.5m at base)

This helps balance the ability itself. Want range? If you want more than 160% you have less projectiles due to Overextended.

Want more orbs? You are less efficient and/or your HG/Renewal don't last as long.

Etc... and by being able to build energy in his kit would give him more freedom with mods which would in turn indirectly buff the rest of his kit. I agree that energy regain is the issue, and if that is solved (and I believe this does just that) then he will be at the spot he needs to be at. It'd just be a matter of figuring out how much per projectile is the right amount.

 

[Hemmo67]

2 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

It does help that the range the projectiles reach is capped by range (12.5m at base)

 

are u bloody joking?

[The_Grimmrock]

Just now, Music4Therapy said:

It does help that the range the projectiles reach is capped by range (12.5m at base)

This helps balance the ability itself. Want range? If you want more than 160% you have less projectiles due to Overextended.

Want more orbs? You are less efficient and/or your HG/Renewal don't last as long.

Etc... and by being able to build energy in his kit would give him more freedom with mods which would in turn indirectly buff the rest of his kit. I agree that energy regain is the issue, and if that is solved (and I believe this does just that) then he will be at the spot he needs to be at. It'd just be a matter of figuring out how much per projectile is the right amount.

 

to that end I completely agree, though I am worried about implementation. Brozamine mentioned giving him a rage passive, but i'm worried this would simply be a worse version of rage and not particularly helpful as a mod slot replacement, but the good thing about it is that literally everyone I've discussed Oberon with has agreed that he has energy issues, and that they need to be addressed in his kit. 

I personally like the idea that Oberon gains 5e for each enemy killed on HG, especially because none of his skills are going to be doing the trick come sortie level missions, thus its more interactive than a fire and forget 1, which I personally think would be better overall. 

but, to reiterate, your idea is quite valid.

[The_Grimmrock]

1 minute ago, Hemmo67 said:

are u bloody joking?

if you weren't aware, yes they have a 12 meter range. if you're speculating that the range being good thing is a joke, that depends. It could probably be a tad bit higher, but it does well for clumps of enemies, hallways, small rooms, ect. so, the range isn't prohibitive, just not optimal. 

[Music4Therapy]

5 minutes ago, Grimmboski said:

to that end I completely agree, though I am worried about implementation. Brozamine mentioned giving him a rage passive, but i'm worried this would simply be a worse version of rage and not particularly helpful as a mod slot replacement, but the good thing about it is that literally everyone I've discussed Oberon with has agreed that he has energy issues, and that they need to be addressed in his kit. 

I personally like the idea that Oberon gains 5e for each enemy killed on HG, especially because none of his skills are going to be doing the trick come sortie level missions, thus its more interactive than a fire and forget 1, which I personally think would be better overall. 

but, to reiterate, your idea is quite valid.

The problem I have with Rage is that is requires you to be shot, which isn't always an option. I do like the HG providing energy per kill as well, thats another change I've been pushing for. Either of the two or a combination of the two is literally all Oberon needs imo.

[The_Grimmrock]

8 minutes ago, Music4Therapy said:

The problem I have with Rage is that is requires you to be shot, which isn't always an option. I do like the HG providing energy per kill as well, thats another change I've been pushing for. Either of the two or a combination of the two is literally all Oberon needs imo.

I think i disagree with you here slightly, I think we need to soften some of the numbers and put more of them into their base skills. Namely Id like to see renewal have a base armor increase, that doubles on HG < something no less than 2/3> of current values, and refreshes its duration when people jump into HG. Id like to see reckoning reduce armor on irradiated targets <which synergises well with smite> and double the armor shred on targets that are on HG < this would fix the issue of the low base values of that armor shred on reckonings current numbers>, and as stated many times, shift the health orb drop off kills and move it onto either hits, or enemies killed after being hit <during its secondary affect duration> which would pair nicely with the energy regain on kills on HG. 

this introduces synergy without dependency, where all his skills do something decently, but do it better when HG is a factor in the equation.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Grimmboski

[Music4Therapy]

1 minute ago, Grimmboski said:

I think i disagree with you here slightly, I think we need to soften some of the numbers and put more of them into their base skills. Namely Id like to see renewal have a base armor increase, that doubles on HG < something no less than 2/3> of current values, and refreshes its duration when people jump into HG. Id like to see reckoning reduce armor on irradiated targets <which synergises well with smite> and double the armor shred on targets that are on HG < this would fix the issue of the low base values of that armor shred on reckonings current numbers> 

Nice. Either way, the picture in my head I have of Oberon is a frame that builds similar to Nidus, with an emphasis on power strength, range, and enough duration to have respectable durations on abilities. I see an armor crushing support that isn't afraid of being on the frontline. While he doesn't give his friends nearly as much damage reduction as Trinity, he does give them status effect immunity. I'm excited, with how much support there is on the "he needs energy regain" community I'm sure something with be done. My biggest fear is that they won't give enough energy regen to be relevant or they won't give any at all and assume the base stat increase of the prime version is enough to fix the issue.

[redeyedtreefrog]

Hmm, so, it seems this rework thread is based much more around giving hallowed ground a much freer and less prohibitive synergy. So, I'm going to just lampshade my belief that renewal should be rolled back to its orb-based mechanic, and go into my thoughts on removing the shackles that hallowed ground creates on the rest of oberon's abilities.

Give oberon a small energy return when killing enemies while on hallowed ground or while the enemy is on hallowed ground. Slightly higher energy boost for both conditions being met. 

Give iron renewal to renewal. Instead, hallowed ground magnifies iron renewal while you're standing on hallowed ground: allow this multiplier to be applied and stripped dynamically as players leave and enter hallowed ground.

Perhaps make smite's projectile longer-lived while you're standing on hallowed ground; idk, as previously stated, smite's already pretty good so not much can make it better without tipping the scales in favor of a nerf-bat. 

Reckoning's synergy with hallowed ground would work much better if HG's range was changed to be the same as reckoning; that means a radial hallowed ground. Another thing I've heard is that reckoning's augment, hallowed reckoning, does NOT allow the armor-stripping to happen. If we're keeping the armor stripping combo, allow the augment to work. After all, you're sacrificing a mod slot for that combo, and the total energy cost to strip the armor is 200 base(once to cast and apply the augment, a second time to take advantage of it). that CAN'T be overpowered. Now, another thing to note is that the armor reduction will not produce a particularly noticeable effect until you reach both high levels AND high power strength. Either make the armor debuff stack additively or give it a flat 100% armor strip... again, status shotguns(and kavats) can apply 100% armor strip to one target at a time, and 4 corrosive projections can apply 100% armor strip to an entire mission's worth of enemies. 

[The_Grimmrock]

I'm glad to hear your enjoyment of my personal thoughts on how to wrap his kit up with a bow, and I too am worried they wont address the energy issue. I think we have a good case for my proposed plans, that make Oberon strong enough to be somewhere between brozamines Inaros and Trinity points, without adding anything major to his kit, and reducing dependancy while increasing the appearance and actuality of natural synergy. 

[The_Grimmrock]

2 minutes ago, redeyedtreefrog said:

Hmm, so, it seems this rework thread is based much more around giving hallowed ground a much freer and less prohibitive synergy. So, I'm going to just lampshade my belief that renewal should be rolled back to its orb-based mechanic, and go into my thoughts on removing the shackles that hallowed ground creates on the rest of oberon's abilities.

Give oberon a small energy return when killing enemies while on hallowed ground or while the enemy is on hallowed ground. Slightly higher energy boost for both conditions being met. 

Give iron renewal to renewal. Instead, hallowed ground magnifies iron renewal while you're standing on hallowed ground: allow this multiplier to be applied and stripped dynamically as players leave and enter hallowed ground.

Perhaps make smite's projectile longer-lived while you're standing on hallowed ground; idk, as previously stated, smite's already pretty good so not much can make it better without tipping the scales in favor of a nerf-bat. 

Reckoning's synergy with hallowed ground would work much better if HG's range was changed to be the same as reckoning; that means a radial hallowed ground. Another thing I've heard is that reckoning's augment, hallowed reckoning, does NOT allow the armor-stripping to happen. If we're keeping the armor stripping combo, allow the augment to work. After all, you're sacrificing a mod slot for that combo, and the total energy cost to strip the armor is 200 base(once to cast and apply the augment, a second time to take advantage of it). that CAN'T be overpowered. Now, another thing to note is that the armor reduction will not produce a particularly noticeable effect until you reach both high levels AND high power strength. Either make the armor debuff stack additively or give it a flat 100% armor strip... again, status shotguns(and kavats) can apply 100% armor strip to one target at a time, and 4 corrosive projections can apply 100% armor strip to an entire mission's worth of enemies. 

glad to hear you're on board with most of my plan here, as I stated in the video quite a few people want HG and Reckoning to pair ranges, though I think the cone is fine, because I'm not looking for radiation frost, I'm looking for Oberon. You're probably the third person I've heard state that armor reduction should be additive, and I'm leaning more and more that direction, considering we're looking at 4 casts to reduce armor to 1 on targets on HG, and that is his entire pool of energy with a P. Flow

[October0Night]

2 hours ago, n_0x said:

Yeah in there in itself is the issue could you pick Oberon? Yes. But should you? Realistically not really. Why pick someone average for the job versus someone who's going to be perfectly qualified. And, you can quote me on this forever, I love Oberon's kit (old and new). I remeber fondly (like an idiot) selling my starter Excalibur for Oberon. I remember not caring when everyone told me to not pick Oberon because he was inferior to everyone. But at certain point people realized Oberon's not gonna cut it anymore. Oberon can be the guy that stays the same forever and is ok at everything or give him a new kit. He seems to do well being a support why not re-do his kit around being a tanky support. Can other frames do better built right? No. Can other frames do better? Yes.

Oberon needs a real rework not a glorified tune up. I mean what happens Harrow releases and he takes even more away from Oberon. Combine his abilities don't force synergy play up the theme so much harder or get rid of one and focus on the other.

to be fair no can do the job oberon can do dont know of a frame that can channel a heal and armor buff forever (assuming they fix his energy hunger problem) strip armor cause rad procs that cause enemies to kill and shoot each other in stead of you plus instant revive pets plus increase to time we have to revive a squad mate.  I think a lot of people are unfairly underrating oberons new kit and how usefull it really is ( i myself was at one point included in this group) if they fix his energy problems he is going to be a frame I have no problem taking to a lvl 100 shorty mission.

Edited April 30, 2017 by October0Night

[Music4Therapy]

21 minutes ago, October0Night said:

I think a lot of people are unfairly underrating oberons new kit and how usefull it really is ( i myself was at one point included in this group) if they fix his energy problems he is going to be a frame I have no problem taking to a lvl 100 shorty mission.

Agreed, though I believe many are happy with his kit this seems to be the issue we all agree with

[Mousarchy]

On 4/27/2017 at 5:43 PM, OxideNation said:

What they need to do (and this is just opinion) is they need to have testing phases before releasing re works by extreme fans or something.

I agree. while i do like the new renewal. im still not digging the fact that smite losses damage when building str . and as a guy who consideres oberon his 'mainframe' i would LOVE for them to actually drop some testing PBE stuff or something. at least give some dev councile a hand in it a little bit.

[Drunkarius]

Just to throw my two cents in on page 54, I generally like the rework, and I particularly really like how the heal works now.

My major complaint is Sacred Ground.  Right now, it does basically nothing on its own - a pittance of fire damage, great.  But i have to cast it to get maximum utility out of my other abilities.  Basically, I think they should make Hallowed Ground actually do something useful - either far more damage than it does now, or some kind of impactful defensive effect.

[Music4Therapy]

3 minutes ago, Drunkarius said:

Just to throw my two cents in on page 54, I generally like the rework, and I particularly really like how the heal works now.

My major complaint is Sacred Ground.  Right now, it does basically nothing on its own - a pittance of fire damage, great.  But i have to cast it to get maximum utility out of my other abilities.  Basically, I think they should make Hallowed Ground actually do something useful - either far more damage than it does now, or some kind of impactful defensive effect.

Something that we've talked about is giving Hallowed Ground an energy returning effect whenever you land a kill while standing on.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[Archwizard]

I'm looking at the list in the OP and I'm seeing a lot of problems.

For starters... most of those frames aren't "Jacks of All Trades". Rhino and Frost are tanks with heavy group survival. Nyx is a CCer with an augment for tanking. Valkyr and Nidus are a DPS with heavy tankiness. Most of the frames up there, as has been pointed out, either should or already do have very high values in one or two fields and then abysmal values in others.
Now, I will say that Equinox, Nezha, Inaros, and even Nekros formerly did as much as Oberon could or more... before his rework. Even then, Equinox has to account for the fact that she can only sustain the benefits of one form at a time (hard to argue "she can CC with Maim and reduce damage with Pacify" since she can't do both at the same time), much like Nyx has to account for her augment reducing Absorb's range for a given mission.

Second, a lot of those values don't make much sense. The only way Nyx has such a high value for Group Survivability is if you double down on a trait from either her Tankiness or Crowd Control; I'm sure you'll say that Absorb draws fire from her allies, but I would count that under CC since that's as much as Chaos does, rather than outright mitigation or healing. Or maybe it's because she can situationally Mind Control a single melee enemy from two factions who can provide mitigation to allies in a small, fixed range of itself?
Yes, Equinox can heal the party and reduce incoming damage. She also has to charge up her heal with no benefit to overhealing, and costs energy per enemy target she weakens, which is literally the only thing worse on an energy pool than trying to sustain a Nekros' Shadow army, since at least Nekros has a cap.

Third, I generally just don't agree with the assessment itself with regards to Oberon. Oberon's Team Survival/Healing (and/or Tanking) values should be far higher; in fact, I would argue he should be one of the highest on here. He can constantly heal allies (which you can only otherwise say about.. Desecrate?), give his whole team no small amount of bonus armor (+67% base health before Power Strength, stacking linearly), cleanse status debuffs like poison and bleed, uniquely extend bleedout timers, and augment into a team-wide version of Nidus' passive - and that's just one ability, which he can maintain the whole mission with a good build, regardless of his distance from allies - but he only gets one more rank than Valkyr, even though his armor buff is useful to a lot more frames (and as I learned today, can be stacked, which is a surprising rarity among Warframe abilities). And lower than Nyx, who can do jack-all if someone actually gets hit, which - surprise! - is a risk prevented by precisely 1 of her CCs.
The one that affects 1 target.
FYI, Phoenix Renewal's cooldown is now per-ally rather than shared for the whole party. As long as you don't regularly have everyone going down at once, the 90 second cooldown surprisingly flies by.

Fourth, the "example budgets" being listed here don't even line up. Inaros' budget is only 2 points higher, but he's somehow miraculously fine by your standards. Rhino and Frost are actually fairly significantly higher than the rest. 
If you could show me that everyone was supposed to be at a flat 20 or 25 or 30 and Oberon is significantly below that mark, I might agree with you on the grounds of being an objective analysis - but clearly if your examples are supposed to be "balanced" yet are basically a scatter plot without him, then at best it shows you've selectively eliminated some data that would put them all up the par - data which could also bump Oberon up a tad. At worst, it shows that the scale is virtually meaningless because none of the other frames in the list adhere to it.
For instance, it discounts the area of damage scaling. Smite is capable of it, but only a handful of the other Warframes in the list have a high value for that in themselves. Smite may not seem like much, but it was one of the recommended options for dealing with Friday's Juggernaut alert, which is more than I can say for Maim.

I'm not saying he's without problems or that he's perfect, but this arbitrary metric system you've developed is convoluted, skewed and generally flawed. It's not a constructive way to point out Oberon's deficits.

Edited April 30, 2017 by Archwizard

[Drunkarius]

Just now, Music4Therapy said:

Something that we've talked about is giving Hallowed Ground an energy returning effect whenever you land a kill while standing on.

That would be cool.  It would definitely help the low-energy problem.

Honestly, I'd just as soon see it get an actual defensive ability of some kind.  I have a low-level friend who used her Oberon on sorites and high-level defense, and kept casting her hallowed ground on defense objectives thinking she was protecting the objective.  It'd be nice if she had been right, and you could actually use it to protect something (instead of getting some revenge damage in on the people who are still going to wreck the target anyway).

[Koed]

25 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

I'm looking at the list in the OP and I'm seeing a lot of problems.

For starters... most of those frames aren't "Jacks of All Trades". Rhino and Frost are tanks with heavy group survival. Nyx is a CCer with an augment for tanking. Valkyr and Nidus are a DPS with heavy tankiness. Most of the frames up there, as has been pointed out, either should or already do have very high values in one or two fields and then abysmal values in others.

Didn't really read beyond this but for the sake of the lols lets add another category "DPS" and see if that benefits Oberon's overall score or the notion that he is a JOAT and Valkyr and Nidus are not.

Oberon: Crowd Controller: 5     Tank: 3     Damage Buffer: 2     Healer/Team Survivability: 4     DPS: 2     Total: 16

Valkyr: Crowd Controller: 6     Tank: 9     Damage Buffer: 5     Healer/Team Survivability: 3     DPS: 10     Total: 33

Nidus: Crowd Controller: 4     Tank: 10     Damage Buffer: 4     Healer/Team Survivability: 3     DPS: 10     Total: 31

Now you have 5 categories and Oberon scores 2 in 2 of them, meaning he is a jack of 3/3,5 out of 5 trades. The other two however touches ALL 5 categories meaning they must be way more of a JOAT than Oberon! On top of that they excel in 2 areas and their overall score I is 2 TIMES HIGHER than Oberon.

As I have said to others. With the above.... Why is Oberon a JOAT and Valkyr and Nidus aren't? And why should we settle with such a laughable kit that Oberon has?

[Archwizard]

2 minutes ago, Koed said:

Didn't really read beyond this

If you won't even show the respect to read the other 90% of my post, much less dignify it with a response, then I am under no obligation to do so for you.

[Urlan]

2 hours ago, Koed said:

@Urlan You are too hung up on what a warframe is and isn't. Just because a warframe excels in one area does not mean they can't be a JOAT as I have demonstrated with my scores. Oberon doesn't even have a damage buff yet you/people don't hesitate calling him a JOAT. Rhino does EVERYTHING except healing yet you say this:

"It's not really an all-rounder...." "Light Crowd Control".... Are you bloddy kidding me? Best CC in game, top 3 team buff, top 5 tank ability. Most frames can't do that. Do you know what ALL frames can do? HEEEEEAAAAAAAL. Yes, we all have weapons that can heal. I'll stop here as I can't take anyone serious who calls best CC in game for "light crowd control".

Its quite possible, I might be too hung up on what makes warframes be certain roles or not, but then again, a Jack of All trades or All-Rounder doesn't require a damage buff specifically to be considered an all-rounder. Secondly, that is the subject of this thread you made. In Oberon's case, he has armor boosts rather than allied damage boosts as befitting his combination of knight and cleric. Best crowd control is a highly subjective take away while just having a buff in addition to damage doesn't change the warframe's role. Are you quite sure about all Warframes healing there? Your choice of weapon doesn't make what your warframe itself does, it helps cover your weak-spots or enhance your strengths. Rhino doesn't have healing, its not his bag, he knocks the enemy around and tries to hit harder while avoiding being hit harder if the enemies don't have too much power in the first place.

Perhaps, a comparison to another game setting might be appropriate as a comparison. Rhino might be considered similar to generic action heroes - a space marine type - to take a common sci-fi trope. Rhino has elements to mitigate damage while dealing it but is for the most part a pure warrior. Oberon takes elements of that with Smite and Reckoning though the methodology is different and combines these damaging and disabling moves with moves specifically from a medic's toolkit. Renewal and Hallowed Ground can be used to boost allies survivability and supplement his own. That said, while Oberon can survive on the front line, and in fact has to due to his short range moves and needs of energy through attrition, he is not geared toward it as much as the pure Space Marine of Rhino or dedicated Tanks of warframes like Valkyr and warframes somewhere in-between the Valkyr and Rhino like Chroma. Rhino is like Master Chief from Halo; an Adeptus Astates from Warhammer 40k; or Doomtroopers from Warzone to name a few - flexible combantants to be sure, but a pure combat role with no role out of the direct melee or firefight.

Another warframe that might be a better example than Rhino as an all-rounder (jack of all trades) for your example, is Wukong, though not for lack of being fighting focused, its that his moveset is taken from direct melee fighting like Excalibur, with annoying quick damage that causes status - knockdown in this case - and an odd form of mobility and stealth in Cloudwalker; while his signature Defy doesn't really but sorta takes on some of the tank role from Valkyr. Not becoming actually invulnerable but with support from mods like Rage, trying its darnedest to laugh in the face of death and 'the face of its second cousin dismemberment, and live to tell the tale'. Wukong doesn't have a boost move, a dedicated crowd control, or even wacky area effects or memes - Wukong does have a combination of moves though that take from other roles to make a commando - and while he might not win awards for pure stealth, killing, or tanking Wukong takes elements of these to make a great warframe for solo runs and killing single targets while refusing to die like a boss.

Its possible I am hung up on roles, but that is the point of the thread and either way, its usually a good idea to identify what a piece of gear is good for, used for, and excels at. All-rounders or Jacks of all trades don't really excel at things, but they do bring a mix of benefits to the table to create, if not a more unique, a more flexible set of skills that help their teams or accomplish their goals.

[Music4Therapy]

1 hour ago, Archwizard said:

I'm not saying he's without problems, but this arbitrary metric system you've developed is convoluted, skewed and generally flawed.

I agree with your post and assessment. That said, three frames aside from Oberon that I would call "JOATs" are Octavia, Nezha, and Volt. Oberon is capable of providing the squad with survivability in the form of a flat armor boost that would buff the weakest frames to anywhere to around 250-600 armor (about 40-66% total DR, I would say without the HoT effect this ability is considerably below abilities that provide flat DR boosts), a decent heal over time, CC/status immunity if they choose to stand on HG, provide decent CC in the form of mass knockdowns and radiation, subpar armor stripping that would require spamming to completely strip a target, and including the augment for Smite a nice buff, there are frames that do as much if not more.

Including augments, which imo should be accounted for, Volt, Nezha, and Octavia are also what I'd refer to as JOATs and provide great survivability to the squad (Capacitance and Electric Shield, Warding Halo and heals, Stealth) in addition to filling the same buff (not Nezha here, but to be fair most Oberon's don't use the smite augment)/support/ and cc roles as Oberon as well outside of raiding. Once shield gating is a thing in particular Volt's Capacitance is going to be of much higher value too.

You already made mention about Nezha, that said Volt and Octavia have amazing scaling in their kit in addition to all the utility they bring to themselves and the party.

The issue with Oberon isn't that his kit is poor, it's that he needs every stat. All the frames mentioned have a stat they can trash whereas Oberon needs everything. Volt can trash efficiency in favor of duration and doesn't need to invest much if anything at all in range due to the way his Discharge works, for example.

He struggles to build on the strong points in his kit because he has the lowest base energy pool possible in the game, requires he lay down a magic carpet as a prerequisite to benefitting from his synergies, and while draining energy has no source of energy regen outside of syndicate procs and being shot in the face with Rage equipped. He needs range in order for his Hallowed Ground and Reckoning to be consistent, he needs power strength for armor stripping and much needed additional mitigation/healing via Iron Renewal, Duration so that his Hallowed Ground/Iron Renewal buffs last, and efficiency so that he can actually make use of his synergies with his small energy pool. In addition to all that, many use Rage due to his kit not producing energy which, unlike Volt or Octavia's kits which are largely duration based, requires much more ability usage. He also needs either Vitality or a combination of Primed Flow (due to small energy pool) and Quick Thinking. His cast times are also long, so Natural Talent is also a popular pick. Where do you fit in augment slots?

While people may or may not agree  that Oberon has a strong kit, (I feel as though he has a great kit locked behind a massive energy wall) it doesn't help that he needs to dedicate so many mod slots to surviving, possible utility (Natural Talent/Rage/Augments), and efficiency while simultaneously needing range duration and strength to work. Gimp range? Your kit doesn't work. Gimp strength? Your Iron Renewal is near meaningless and you are basically playing pre-rework Oberon. Gimp duration? Going to be recasting HG and Iron Renewal much more often, hopefully everyone is together when you do otherwise his squad utility isn't up to par. Edit: TL;DR Whereas other generalist frames like Volt and Octavia can vastly improve their kits by placing emphasis on certain stats, Oberon can't because his abilities are tied together and require every stat to be effective. 

 

Edited April 30, 2017 by Music4Therapy

[TaylorsContraction]

22 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

You give Valkyr with her Near to impossible to use dbuff, with her tank/Cc conflict, with the percentual buff that does jack for any light armor frame and the melee buff that works for melee exclusive so much better points then oberon? Really?

Nah i mean, seriously?

Bias much?

I build debuff valkyr with 10 second of 75% slow so it's spamable and Max range/strength prolonged paralysis.  She's a great cc frame is built for it.

[pavlo555]

11 hours ago, Music4Therapy said:

2) Since when did Oberon need to be a top tier damage frame? Alright, let's ignore that point.

 

Regardless of whether the enemy is level 100 or level 1000, his combo is going to remain relevant.

 

Not running 4xCP?

He doesn't need to be a top tier damage, but he also is not top-tier in anything, even in a niche. I proposed up there that we shed away the pseudo synergies, bind armor buff to renewal itself, give hallowed ground ability to revive allies, and rework how reckoning works to be an emergency CC anytime, anywhere. This way, we don't have forced synergies, which allows to flex the build as XXX as possible.

 

It also will remain costy and it will be harder to kill mobs without it, which means less energy, which means irrelevant. And EV trinity murder combo works better IIRC, while doesn't CC enemies. And EV trinity Single-target murder costs nothing but patience. Also, there is literally no need to  go for lvl.1000, and it's also pretty harmful to even go there in this game's current state, as you have to reach it first after 8 hour binge.

 

Not running 4x CP in 2017? Where warframe passives sufficiently compensate for auras, currently?