The survivability gap between frames is too high

[Rambit23Z]

11 hours ago, -PlutoBubble- said:

I agree with u to an extend. However i do think DE know there is a big gap between each frame's Survivability. and thats kinda the point they left it untouch. DE has already gaves us a large tool box. Alot of mods weapons and frames. u could use anything for any type of mission but there will always be a loadout the will do better in that certain type of mission. Saryn can be a melee/Nuker/Dpser/Support frame depending how u mod her. But alll of  this is  just about dealing damage and not surviving AND can be make up with her 2nd ability. This also promotes co op gaming to work together as a team so the mission will be alot easier. Getting 1 shot is a common thing in end game.And back then the only way to counter them was having the OLD bless trin to keep the entire squad alive. i get the Expriment here and the playstyle u choose. but instead being unhappy about how some warframes cant do some missions easily compare to others. Just play other frames that exiles in that mission type. Each frame is different fro 1 another. Which is the point to each warframe that ever come out. Having the gap reduce and re balance means. there is no point in using tanky frames anymore.

The point is that I actually want to play the game. Putting on Shadow Step or a tanky frame and mashing E for 10 minutes doesn't qualify as a game for me. It's not that I want tank and non-tank frames play the same way, I just want to play without needing to render the enemies harmless through stupidly high damage reduction.

The Warframe meta is like playing Skyrim with god-mode on. That's where the problem lies.

[KnightCole]

6 hours ago, -SDM-NerevarCM said:

Shield gating will only make shields competitive against health. Lets say that each 250 shields will have 1 shield gate. Meaning that warframes with high shield values would have more shield gates. This would solve the issue with getting one shoted and will make shield builds worth it.

But yes, as you said, DE needs to reduce scaling or create a limit to how much the damage can increase. Shield gate will only help against some shots, but with the scale we have, if you get caught in the middle of 10 enemies with auto weapons, doesn't matter how many shield gates you have, you will be killed in one sec.

Really, I always figured the AI needed to cap out, and "endless" missions needed to not be a thing.  Have enemies cap out at lvl 100, and have the loot rotation increase up to a max number of rounds, with the later versions of the loot table giving out things like Riven mods, Reactors and things that might be more useful. 

Really, whats the point of the high lvl, endless missions?  I mean, seriously, all it is is your Warframes pressing 1-2 buttons while standing in 1 spot for 2-3-4-5-6-7-8 hours if you so choose, just killing mobs.......I get bored to tears after 30-40 minutes in the same dungeon.  Made worse by the fact that rewards dont increase, despite the enemies getting tougher. 

So, mobs need to scale better, cap out and the endless just needs to end after awhile.  I sat for 90 minutes the other day with a Nidus testing out his frame......it was boring as S#&$, just in a hallway watching him destroy entire hallways.....I failed to see the point of it besides just him stroking his Epeen with how powerful the frame is.......

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, KnightCole said:

Really, I always figured the AI needed to cap out, and "endless" missions needed to not be a thing. 

 

This could only be a thing if DE stopped throwing out Power Creep and considering improved stats are how they keep players interested and get paid as a result. It'll never happen.

Endurance runs are how some of us actually test our builds and make use of all the Primed mods and Arcanes we have. You don't need more than a basic level of power to complete "normal missions". No primes, not even maxed normal mods and your build could even be complete trash. What's the point in progressing further?

To be honest if there was a level cap I'd have stopped playing this game years ago because there's no point to progression outside endless missions. It's only a shame we have to spend 2+ hours in a mission and deal with broken mechanics in order to make use of that progress.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

Better warframe abilities.

[KnightCole]

10 hours ago, Xzorn said:

 

This could only be a thing if DE stopped throwing out Power Creep and considering improved stats are how they keep players interested and get paid as a result. It'll never happen.

Endurance runs are how some of us actually test our builds and make use of all the Primed mods and Arcanes we have. You don't need more than a basic level of power to complete "normal missions". No primes, not even maxed normal mods and your build could even be complete trash. What's the point in progressing further?

To be honest if there was a level cap I'd have stopped playing this game years ago because there's no point to progression outside endless missions. It's only a shame we have to spend 2+ hours in a mission and deal with broken mechanics in order to make use of that progress.

They could cap the lvl, increase the easiest lvl of the enemies to make it harder overall. I feel being able to basically stand in front of hordes of mobs and take almost no damage is a bit much, while later on, my Rhino's 5,000 IS, 1200 shield and 960 health gets chewed through in a matter of 4-5 shots.  The flair up of power is a bit much.

If it were my choice, id kinda make it where a Rhino Prime with IS could take maybe 5-7 hits to IS, maybe 6 hits to 1200 shield and maybe 4 to 960 health, tweaked a little bit based on armor, maybe +2-4 more hits over all 3 sections of health.  Weaker frames would take 2-3 hits to shields and a few more to health, with armor adding 1-2 more.  Right now, its like 350 hits to IS, 220 to 1200 shields, 180 more to 960 health....but then you take a soft frame like Trinity or Ember and its 5-7 hits to shield, 4-6 hits to health....or in the case of Vauban, 1 to your shield and 3/4 of your health, 1 to finish you off...

The disparity in power is a bit much.

As for Missions, id make more missions like the Kuva Fortress Assault, where your actively moving around, defending here, destroying that, holding here, and not just endlessly killing enemies chasing air containers, or standing on a single pod for hours on end.  The new Exterminate is cool, but I thnk i'd add more to even that, with us having the added objective of "destroy the ship", you know, exterminating the ship and its hostile colony on board.  So, while your killing the Grineer, you have to proceed to the engine room, blow it up, proceed to the life support, at which point it becomes a little bit like a survival, you proceed to the barracks and escape pods, destroy those, then top it off with a small Archwing battle as you escape the ship.  All the while the grineer are fighting you, and you gotta move smart, cover to cover, utilizing Parkour to minimize incoming damage as you move around, and less as a means of just flying around like a drunk child after to much koolaid. 

Defense, id personally combine into both Survival and Defense, making it kinda like a reversed version of my above exterminate.  The enemies are hammering away at your ship, it starts off as an Archwing, with you outside, trying to destroy incoming boarding pods, eventually ramping up to where you likely cant hold them all back, at which point you fall back inside and fight from several different boardin party locations, yes this would require your group to split up, and be based on party size, solo, you would only have to defend 1 spot.  Eventually, it would break off and more boarding locations would open up, to where you couldnt properly defend it or protect each other, so it would go to where you now have to protect your Bridge of the ship or facility and it ends after a fight in the bridge. 

Id like to see this game take on a more Battlefield/COD style having to use cover, or you die fast, and less just stopping a massive zombie horde.  You use cover well, you will survive alot.  Iron Skin would make Rhino the above all toughest frame in the game, with healing and Trinity being very valuable cuz you couldnt really sustain yourselves as well without healing.  but idk.....ive always wanted this game to really expand on what it has...its fun, but I agree, the endless missions and just the mission design gets boring after awhile. 

[Xzorn]

21 minutes ago, KnightCole said:

They could cap the lvl, increase the easiest lvl of the enemies to make it harder overall. I feel being able to basically stand in front of hordes of mobs and take almost no damage is a bit much, while later on, my Rhino's 5,000 IS, 1200 shield and 960 health gets chewed through in a matter of 4-5 shots.  The flair up of power is a bit much.

 

I think you're missing the inherent flaws of having a static difficulty against players who's damage is forever increasing.

It's actually what caused the situation we have now as DE continues to ignore scaling and implements things based on the popular vote.

Three years ago 20k DPS was considered good and lvl 80 was a decent challenge. These days we can push 200-300k DPS easy and yet only certain frames have received any defensive buffs. The ones who have can do lvl 400 solo easy. The ones who haven't get one-shot well before that point, despite having the damage to kill said enemies.

All these ideas you have are fine but ultimately pointless when I can take Ignis, spin in a circle and everything dies. Which will inevitably happen because Power Creep is how DE keeps players interested in new content and playing the game.

[KnightCole]

26 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

I think you're missing the inherent flaws of having a static difficulty against players who's damage is forever increasing.

It's actually what caused the situation we have now as DE continues to ignore scaling and implements things based on the popular vote.

Three years ago 20k DPS was considered good and lvl 80 was a decent challenge. These days we can push 200-300k DPS easy and yet only certain frames have received any defensive buffs. The ones who have can do lvl 400 solo easy. The ones who haven't get one-shot well before that point, despite having the damage to kill said enemies.

All these ideas you have are fine but ultimately pointless when I can take Ignis, spin in a circle and everything dies. Which will inevitably happen because Power Creep is how DE keeps players interested in new content and playing the game.

Well, they could go so far as to base the mob level and difficulty based off the avg "power" of the player group, basically use those 'conclave" ratings of stuff to determine that. 

They could also go and nerf the power of our equipment.  I personally think its stupid that we have to mod our stuff up so far and only a few meta weapons and frames even perform past a certain point.  I mean, when my Soma Prime with 8 max mods, tricked out with Corrosion(supposedly good vs Grineer), needs like an entire mag of headshots to kill a single mob....yeah thats a bit much.  Basically why Shotguns do so well, cuz they deal like 20,000 dmg per shot lol....amplified with proper elements....thats just plain overkill. 

I go do the sorties and my guns do ok in the 1st part, but the 2nd and 3rd parts......a little worse, but the 1 shot fests are real.....kinda ruins the fun of it, and doesnt seem like much of a real challenge, just a death simulator...

Game seems like it needs to be dialed back in the higher lvls.  Partly why I dont like to go past lvl 50-60 at the most...game feels the best around lvl 40-50.  Mobs die fairly quickly if you have the right stuff, you take a good deal of damage, but its not completely over the top yet. 

Then we could lose some of the gimmick mobs, like the Corpus and their 100 different AOE mobs, the bomber drones, the mine drones, Bursas and  their grabbing, stunning, knock backs, Nullifiers up the yang and their shields...Corpus late game are just pure misery to fight....and by late game I mean around lvl 40-50......walk in a room and meet 10 shield drones, 15 bomber drones, 12 mine drones, 4 Nullies, a Bursa, 20 Moas spam casting knock down, Supra gunners nuking your face off, snipers finishing off what the other guys cant, and the shield drones powering up shields and nullis ensuring you cant kill any of them or use any abilities......its like fffuuuuuu........

 

 

[mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa]

On 5/14/2017 at 11:55 PM, Djego27 said:

the reason why we spam map wide CC, cheese, invisibility or god mode since the base mechanic is not designed that you can reasonable play with it, even as low as level 100 on most frames.

Invisibility and CC spamming are the base mechanics.

Look at Nyx: Chaos is useful only if the enemies tank a lot and deal a lot of damages. If the enemies don't tank, shoot until they're dead, don't cast Chaos; if the enemies don't do a lot of damage, shot until they're dead (they won't kill you anyway), don't cast Chaos.

Enemy scaling is too high when they 1-shot a frame with X survivability mods equipped (X is a number the design team has to define : nova with 0 mods should be one-shot by high-level enemies, but with 2 mods?); but the fact you have to spam CC/invi or use a tanky frame is normal.

 

[RistN]

On 14.5.2017. at 3:32 PM, Rambit23Z said:

So current Sortie is Radiation Hazard Survival on the Kuva Fortress. I decided to do a little test. Solo, of course.

First, I did it with Saryn Prime, Nikana Prime and Zenurik. I barely managed to complete it due to the sheer amount of one-shot levels of damage they did.

Next, I did it with the same setup except with Inaros instead. My damage was lower but the fact that I didn't need to worry about dying meant I could just go ham and stack up my melee counter with ease.

Lastly, I went back to Saryn, but with Naramon this time. And now it was even easier. To nobody's surprise, enemies that don't shoot cannot kill.

 

Simply put, DE needs to reign in the damage of higher level enemies so that we don't need all these 90% damage reduction abilities and perma-invis.

While I do realize what you are talking about I must say you can't look at it that way.Very bad approach to this subject.Banshee is one of the weekest warframes who gets easily killed in mid lvl missions but non the less she is no.1 end game warframe.Solo play is also a different story from team play.

You're test is a bit pointless.You can do this mission with any of the warframes with right setups.You can't compare mid-low armored Sarin who is caster with straight up tank Inaros.

It would be like I wrote topic about why does Saryn kill more enemies on Hydron than Inaros to make some point.

[Rambit23Z]

2 hours ago, RistN said:

While I do realize what you are talking about I must say you can't look at it that way.Very bad approach to this subject.Banshee is one of the weekest warframes who gets easily killed in mid lvl missions but non the less she is no.1 end game warframe.Solo play is also a different story from team play.

You're test is a bit pointless.You can do this mission with any of the warframes with right setups.You can't compare mid-low armored Sarin who is caster with straight up tank Inaros.

It would be like I wrote topic about why does Saryn kill more enemies on Hydron than Inaros to make some point.

The problem isn't that Saryn dies faster than Inaros. It's that she dies so fast in comparison that the DPS she could put out becomes irrelevant. All I ask is to get a chance to react to taking damage. Something like this.

Take damage > Heal with Life Strike > Repeat

not

Get shot once > Die

 

Again, the problem is that it's tuned for 90% damage resistance and above. i also made another topic a while ago, suggesting to add reaction time to enemies. If that was a thing, I could at least react to them before they one-shot me. 

A game shouldn't be balanced around cheese-strats. I mentioned this earlier here:

On 5/17/2017 at 9:38 PM, Rambit23Z said:

The Warframe meta is like playing Skyrim with god-mode on. That's where the problem lies.

I shouldn't be expected to use god-mode to play the game. Because the moment that's the case, it cannot be called a game anymore.

[Djego27]

On 18.5.2017 at 3:34 PM, mplokijuhygtfrdeszqa said:

Invisibility and CC spamming are the base mechanics.

Look at Nyx: Chaos is useful only if the enemies tank a lot and deal a lot of damages. If the enemies don't tank, shoot until they're dead, don't cast Chaos; if the enemies don't do a lot of damage, shot until they're dead (they won't kill you anyway), don't cast Chaos.

Enemy scaling is too high when they 1-shot a frame with X survivability mods equipped (X is a number the design team has to define : nova with 0 mods should be one-shot by high-level enemies, but with 2 mods?); but the fact you have to spam CC/invi or use a tanky frame is normal.

 

They are not base mechanics, if you die instantly once you get shot once(like my Ember when the tech decided to override my fireball CC with his drone animation and killed me in a single shot in the L100 sorti today).

Since you came to the conclusion that we sometimes do it, and sometimes not it appears to be not normal, else we would do it at any given time. Also having the ability to completely ignore the hole mechanic(as far as what you can solo realistic at higher levels without cheese) while all other frames die in a single hit at L100 ish is not a carefully balanced design, it is the expected outcome if you apply a scaling mechanic, that was intended for L1-L45(where it does, as you agree works without CC spam or tanky frames) to daily L80 raids, L100 sortis or endless defence/survival(long after giving people weapons that makes it trivial for any frame to solo till L100 and beyond). How we play the game is a symptom of this mechanics and they should change. That the last time there where bigger changes(U17 with the removal of aimbotting hit scan weapon npcs and spawning changes to solo endless defence, interception and survival) what made it possible to finally drop the CC spam and play the game like a shooter. What you did before that with Ember was running basically from cover to cover and pressing 2 every 5s just 20 waves in, while after the changes I actually did play often till 40 or 60 solo because it was finally a enjoyable game play, where you can test your weapons, frame, aim and movement, instead of hammering a CC button non stop because you otherwise get shot down in a second or less. 

Pressing 2 every 5 seconds back then was also normal(20 waves into solo Helene to prevent you and the defence target getting shot at any range over all the map at the same time), same as the spawn pattern was literally the same for 4 players as it was for solo. This changes did not made the content trivial it made it finally reasonable playable and at least for me far more enjoyable, since they removed a brick wall with a steady rising difficulty and requirements to your weapons and frame what is the baseline to provide a interesting challenge at higher levels and my own motivation to play at higher levels. I do not want to ignore mechanics, I want to play with them in place, because they should define the game and not how we can ignore them the most effective way(like with tanks).

[Djego27]

On 18.5.2017 at 7:03 PM, RistN said:

While I do realize what you are talking about I must say you can't look at it that way.Very bad approach to this subject.Banshee is one of the weekest warframes who gets easily killed in mid lvl missions but non the less she is no.1 end game warframe.Solo play is also a different story from team play. .

You're test is a bit pointless.You can do this mission with any of the warframes with right setups.You can't compare mid-low armored Sarin who is caster with straight up tank Inaros.

It would be like I wrote topic about why does Saryn kill more enemies on Hydron than Inaros to make some point.

Last time I checked(was last year) Saryn works fine at high levels solo, same as frames like Ember. The issue is simply unlimited enemy damage scaling what is unreasonable against 80% of the frames in the game at higher levels and will catch up to tank frames just a bit later. It is a bad mechanic, since it is not something avoidable by skill(I do not count cheese or CC spam as this) and you can not reasonable play with it at higher levels, no matter what frame. Changing the mechanic to something you can actually play with is in my opinion very good for the game, since it makes higher levels more skill based and interesting to play, given the player more ways to approach the problem.