If we have to put Heavy Caliber on a weapon, the weapon is badly designed

[Tyrian3k]

29 minutes ago, Zookes said:

From the real world, many purchase guns having only tiny variations from each other to enjoy. In practicality, there needs to be one good assault rifle only to do everything assault rifles need to do. Tho because people have different likes and methods, they enjoy variety of base models with also the basic modifications. The guns tho all do the same thing - launch projectiles from the barrel. It is difficult to miss targets unless you are unfamiliar using the weapon, or unless the weapon is broken or designed badly. Why have a gun requiring so many aftermarket parts and mods to make it shoot well that it is now not attractive to use? Modding in warframe is like this many times, and many times weapons become unused because they are designed badly.

Such a thing is similar also to cars and the culture of it. Many many similar vehicles having slight variations only, some better or worse objectively, tho the owners use them because it is fun for them somehow. Simple street cars going fast tho also handling well are fun, maybe more fun than high-performing cars made to be fast. The vehicles people enjoy tho are always capable to drive the streets normally. Why have a car needing a 35k rebuild to operate somehow without overheating, tho still have very poor handling and comfort?

 

It is like this for weapons needing heavy caliber to work on the level similar to a weapon that does not need this or is unaffected by the accuracy penalty. Why use it if it cannot do the simple thing of killing the enemy with some effectiveness, and using mods to improve effectiveness to par ruins the way the weapon plays?

Well, there are three flaws in design.

First of all, you have some weapons that have mechanics that are so wonky that you'd rather not use them like for example the Stug. In the real world, this would be a firearm that e.g. jams frequently.

Then you have the design flaw that some weapons that are extremely good in performance are easy and early to get. The real world equivalent of this would be a cheaper gun performing better than an expensive one.

And lastly we have the inherent flaw of Heavy Caliber not affecting different weapons equally. Some will hardly notice the difference while others will suddenly shoot all over the place.

When you compare the Soma to a weaker weapon and complain that the Soma performs better, you're doing the equivalent of complaining that a cheap gun isn't as good as an expensive one. The only real design flaw would be that the weaker weapon would in fact be more expensive like e.g. the Stradavar, which should technically be either better or cheaper than the Soma.

 

Lastly, there is the problem of availability of different weapons similar to the Soma. The good ones that I listed are mostly unavailable at this point. Either they are vaulted, event weapons or sold by Baro infrequently. 

So the issue isn't that the alternatives don't exist, but that they are unavailable at this point in time.

[S0VEREIGNSK]

I only put heavy caliber if it has a high damage output such as Opticor

[DEATHLOK]

19 hours ago, Tyrian3k said:

Prisma Grakata, Tenora Boltor Prime, Dex Sybaris and Latron Wraith are all pretty good.

With Rivens, you can make several more quite viable or even arguably better than the Soma.

My Karak Wraith with a powerful Riven can kill a level 145 Napalm in one magazine (60 shots).

I should have specified guns without Rivens. I'm not into RNG game design, or relying on RNG to fix problems. If it takes a Riven to fix a weapon, that's bad design.

I don't want to open the Riven can of worms. I don't even want to acknowledge them in this thread, which I think was about finding an assault rifle as good as the Soma Prime and is not just another machine gun. I was disappointed to learn that it takes Heavy Caliber for Supra Vandal to deal acceptable damage. It would have been great to finally have something to use on Sorties other than Soma Prime.

[rapt0rman]

A) Rivens exist and will be acknowledged whether you like it or not

B) Really, try the tenora

C) It's, for all intents and purposes, a bad idea to put heavy cal on the supra/vandal. It's true that no matter what it won't reach soma's standards, but heavy cal still won't fix that problem. Really, your whole premise never had anything to do with heavy cal in the first place...

Try this:

https://goo.gl/ka6k9d

Or even:

https://goo.gl/6Qe3vT (around 1k less damage than heavy cal... y'know... but no accuracy loss...)

@Tyrian3kLol, yeah fixed it already, still waking up.

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2017 by rapt0rman

[Tyrian3k]

1 minute ago, rapt0rman said:

A) Rivens exist and will be acknowledged whether you like it or not

B) Really, try the tenora

C) It's, for all intents and purposes, a bad idea to put heavy cal on the supra/vandal. It's true that no matter what it won't reach soma's standards, but heavy cal still won't fix that problem. Try this:

http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Supra_Vandal

or even:

http://warframe-builder.com/Primary_Weapons/Builder/Supra_Vandal (around 1k less damage... y'know... but no acccuracy loss...)

 

 

 

You need to click "export" if you want to link actual builds from warframe builder. Yours just lead to the Supra Vandal page.

 

1 hour ago, DEATHLOK said:

I should have specified guns without Rivens. I'm not into RNG game design, or relying on RNG to fix problems. If it takes a Riven to fix a weapon, that's bad design.

I don't want to open the Riven can of worms. I don't even want to acknowledge them in this thread, which I think was about finding an assault rifle as good as the Soma Prime and is not just another machine gun. I was disappointed to learn that it takes Heavy Caliber for Supra Vandal to deal acceptable damage. It would have been great to finally have something to use on Sorties other than Soma Prime.

Well, if you don't mind burst weapons, try the Hema or Paracyst. Both are very good status weapons. The upcoming Sybaris Prime will likely also be quite good.

Rivens exist, if you like them or not. Best thing that we can do is ask DE to maybe give us more tools to get around the RNG wall with some effort.

[(PSN)MrNishi]

4 hours ago, DEATHLOK said:

.. I'm not into RNG game design, or relying on RNG to fix problems....

Just playing Devil's Advocate:

I believe Status chance and Crit (Below 200%) is relying on RNG game design.

Status chance: RNG to apply a single desired Status proc as other damage types dilute the chance and thus RNG.

Crit Chance when when cap was 💯% and Crits were capped at yellow could skip RNG with weapons that surpassed the 100. With the Red Crits any weapon below certain critical chance standards succumbs to RNG unless you RNG Charm Kavat to get guaranteed Red Crits.

 

RNG through and through.

 

Even if Dera or Supra were a direct stat copy of Soma, but with Energy Flightspeed projectiles instead of hit-scan bullets: they would be deemed not as good as Soma(Prime). Some players hate Flightspeed projectiles and will choose hit-scan variant every time.

 

If only looking at Sortie level: any Assualt Rifle/Launcher can be used even it takes 'Maximum Effort' compared the using Soma(Prime).

Looking at Endurance (endless scaling) the Soma (Prime) is not good for endless scaling enemies. For what is considered the Assualt Rifle Sortie class: Torid or Zarr far out perform Soma(Prime) for endless scaling enemies.

Yes both are Launcher weapons, but Sortie classification puts them as Assualt Rifles.

Sybaris series, Latron Prime/Wraith, Braton Prime, Buzlok, Paracyst, Mutalist Quanta, Quanta(Vandal), Tenora, Zenith...can be made to be on par or better than Soma (Prime)

Currently I feel the Zenith & Tenora are better applications of the Stradavar's Auto/Semi-Auto & better than the Soma(Prime)

Tenora in all honesty looks like the better Soma-like rifle you are looking for.

[DEATHLOK]

Anyone bothered by the fact that bullets (hitscan) fly faster than laser beams (projectile speed)? Seems a bit backwards.

[(XBOX)Onyx Schnee]

My Dex sybaris works plenty well with HC on.

I USED to run with argon scope and bladed rounds....but my sybaris riven made argon scope moot via allowing me to red crit 50% of the time without having to land headshots then aim.

I was going to forma my dex a 7th time so i could reslot bladed rounds, but with its SPOILER ALERT!  possibly arriving in a couple weeks, i have no plans on doing so. once SPOILER ALERT!  is live, it'll probably be 2 forma less than a full dex build anyways.....so win-win.

 

my point it is that there are some high power weapons like the dex that don't suffer at all with HC. Zarr, Tonkor(any launcher for that matter barring the ogris......) and arguably my cernos prime is actually STRONGER with heavy calibur causing the shots to spread out and hit more targets(seriously...this bow is underrated)

[Mousarchy]

The issue isnt really heavy cal per say. its a mixture of player styles and the -accuracy being unfair on certain weapons. some weapons with heavy cal. have no real issues (boltor p,ignis,soma apparently) and most players effective combat range is 15m...so the neg accuracy isnt even a loss. and then some weapons (miter,javlok,any sniper) straight up become worthless with heavy cal. due to the shots skewing out at 85 degree angles. Like i dont use heavy cal on alot of weapons because I like fighting at ranges that heavy cal actually effects. but the game lacks large open areas (sides from the one corpus map) that really let long range weapons shine (not that it matters since enemies will still prioritize a sniper and get hits in from a mile away than the blender half the time)

[(PSN)DBR87]

On 5/21/2017 at 9:04 AM, DEATHLOK said:

I should have specified guns without Rivens. I'm not into RNG game design, or relying on RNG to fix problems. If it takes a Riven to fix a weapon, that's bad design.

I don't want to open the Riven can of worms. I don't even want to acknowledge them in this thread, which I think was about finding an assault rifle as good as the Soma Prime and is not just another machine gun. I was disappointed to learn that it takes Heavy Caliber for Supra Vandal to deal acceptable damage. It would have been great to finally have something to use on Sorties other than Soma Prime.

Prisma Grakata, Tenora, and Dex Sybaris don't need Rivens. They are all just as sortie viable as Soma Prime.

If you want the status version of Soma Prime with worse ammo economy, use Prisma Grakata.

If you want the status version of  Soma Prime with a semi auto/charge option use Tenora.

If you want  the burst fire version of Soma Prime use the Dex Sybaris.

If you can let go of the mentality that 'crit it king' there are plenty of status focus rifles other there worth using now like Paracyst, Mutalist Quanta and (King) Hema.

Every weapon I mentioned I put 5 forma into it at least. Even before the weapon buff of recent we had a nice handful of sortie ready weapons.