Loki- Decoy problems

[Grimlar]

1) With the decoy having fixed health it is pretty much useless in higher level missions. Please consider allowing the decoys health/shields to scale to the level of the mission as per spectres.

2) The places the decoy can be placed are much more limited now than they used to be. Whilst I believe some of this was to avoid certain 'exploits' it seems to have affected its normal use as well. (It can also make it difficult to use switch teleport)

So for example:

It used to be possible to place a decoy in the open vent at the end of this corridor.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=939479109

 

It used to be possible to place a decoy the other side of the laser grid on the floor. The other half of the vault is fine.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=939478687

 

You can even get problems trying to put a decoy in plain sight in one of these alcoves

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=939477994

None of those three locations has any visible reason for there to be problems placing a decoy.

 

Finally, whilst at first glance it might look like an exploit, I believe the following to be a bug too.

If you were stood close enough, It used to be possible to place a decoy through a grate.

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=939479437

The reason i believe it to be a bug is:

1) the other side is clearly visible through the grate if you are close enough. Decoy (and switch teleport) would appear to be a line of sight ability, if you can clearly see your location you should be able to place a decoy there.

2) there are actually grates in the game that would seem to be designed to prevent line of sight abilities, for example grates that have working fans on the other side, and also double grates which greatly restrict the players vision. http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=939478486 

But of course, at the end of the day the question is whether these changes fit DE's intended use of the skill or if they were accidental.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Grimlar

[Naftal]

You can use Disarm to force enemies into melee which means they have to get next to your decoy to deal damage to it. This combined with Loki having S#&$ton of energy and being able to spam decoy makes it so you can easily control enemy position in the map.

You can alternatively use Switch Teleport augment and switch with your decoy to make it invulnerable.

Only buff I'd like for decoy is being able to cast more than one of them at the same time so it's easier to control many different groups of enemies.

[Grimlar]

For me the description of the skill expresses DE's intent.

At max level the Decoy is supposed to last for up to 25 seconds, before mods are taken into account.

In higher level missions that generally doesn't happen. If the mission is a little busy the decoy will be down almost instantly because it will be getting one shotted, (or one kicked) while most of the enemies will barely turn around.

Yes, you can use Safeguard Switch to make it last 6 seconds, but seriously, more casting time, more energy and another mod slot to make it do something it should do in the first place?

I'm not suggesting that it be made into a tank, but it needs to last a reasonable proportion of its stated duration. The only way to ensure that is to scale its stats. Given that stuff like spectres & Clem already scale, there is no reason Decoy couldn't work the same way.

 

 

Edited June 4, 2017 by Grimlar

[Lucavee]

Give decoy Iron Skin / Snow Globe / Warding Halo mechanic. Decoy is invulnerable for the first few seconds, damage absorbed during invulnerability period is then added to decoy's maximum health/shield.

As for Decoy placement, i have no clue how to fix that.

[Grimlar]

As I said earlier, I suspect DE made some changes to fix an exploit or two in terms of placement and didn't realize it affected these other cases too. A little bit of testing and tweaking on their part (hopefully) will see it sorted.

-

Whilst it would definitely be an improvement, I do have a couple of problems with the Iron skin type mechanic a) I dont really see it as fitting the Loki style, (but that could just be me,) and b)whilst it works ok in the middle of a fight, its less useful if you want to place a decoy before the enemies arrive and leave it to delay/decoy the enemy while you go and do something else. The shield and health scaling mechanic is already in the game for spectres and the like. Shields and health (mostly) always works.

Mind you I suppose if we were truly going for something more in line with the Loki style then it probably ought to be able to move around its target point a little, dodge shots, maybe go invisible for a second, moon the enemy etc The problem with that of course is that if you carefully place the decoy somewhere in cover, the first thing it will probably do is leave it, so that's not so great either.

[DSpite]

Decoys should not have "health" anyway, but at the same time they should also NOT scale, or fool enemies 100% of the time they are up. Enemies are not even THAT stupid with players Invisibility anymore.

If anything there should be a mechanic where enemy units get a chance to figure out that they are shooting at a Decoy, and then stop doing it. Any new unit seeing the Decoy gets their own new chances.

The higher the level of the enemy, the more likely it will snap out of it sooner. How long they shoot at it would be high for normal units, but higher level units like Eximus would be fooled for lower times.

Either way, the Decoy would always last the entire duration at least, and keep effecting everything that goes past, which would balance out the fact that units are NOT fooled simply as long as the Decoy exists and has been parked in a spot where it can't be shot (as it has health atm).

EDIT:

2) In those it seems that the positioning problems are what DE did to stop people bypassing all the lasers/locks in the Spy Vaults. I used to do that myself, now I have to work for it. That's my guess anyway.

 

Edited June 5, 2017 by DSpite

[LuckyCharm]

I'm just unsure why loki's decoy doesn't even have the ability to actually decoy many enemies compared to octavia. She seems to be able to charm entire rooms to attack her mallet or follow her roller

 

[Grimlar]

16 hours ago, DSpite said:

Decoys should not have "health" anyway, but at the same time they should also NOT scale, or fool enemies 100% of the time they are up. Enemies are not even THAT stupid with players Invisibility anymore.

If anything there should be a mechanic where enemy units get a chance to figure out that they are shooting at a Decoy, and then stop doing it. Any new unit seeing the Decoy gets their own new chances.

The higher the level of the enemy, the more likely it will snap out of it sooner. How long they shoot at it would be high for normal units, but higher level units like Eximus would be fooled for lower times.

Either way, the Decoy would always last the entire duration at least, and keep effecting everything that goes past, which would balance out the fact that units are NOT fooled simply as long as the Decoy exists and has been parked in a spot where it can't be shot (as it has health atm).

EDIT:

2) In those it seems that the positioning problems are what DE did to stop people bypassing all the lasers/locks in the Spy Vaults. I used to do that myself, now I have to work for it. That's my guess anyway.

 

To be honest i don't have a problem with decoys having no health and just lasting a set amount of time. Perhaps DE justify doing it with health it as the decoy taking damage looks more realistic, I couldn't say. 

The reason for suggesting that the health should scale, is purely because at the moment the way decoys work is with health and shields.

I also agree with you that a decoy that stands in one place and fires a few shots and then falls over isn't that convincing, even if it does apply status affects to a few enemies. (How many Tenno actually never move in a fight?) I know that many Grineer and Corpus units are a few spanners short of a toolset but all the same even they... Hmm, toy tiger sparks police hunt does spring to mind, from 6 years ago... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-13507026/stuffed-toy-tiger-sparks-police-hunt

I was under the impression that the changes to the decoy positioning was more to do with decoys being able to be placed in locations where they couldn't be hit, and similar shenanigans involving ambulatory defense targets, but obviously I could be wrong.

If DE were unhappy about Loki using his given powers to avoid obstacles then either they should have designed the powers differently, or they should have designed the vaults differently. What shouldn't happen is for the powers to fail to work when there is clear line of sight, no obstacles and no reason for it to fail. Especially when the same trick used in a different part of the vault still works as it used to.

i did note that the usage of decoy with relation to grates may be debatable, but also gave reasons why it could be justified in certain cases, specifically those vents where the player could stand next to them. If DE don't want Loki to use decoy there, (at least occasionally,) then they should remove the places to stand, maybe add a second grill or a fan, or remove the whole vent. Those vents seem tailor made to be used by Loki and no other real reason for being there, I don't believe its a coincidence.

 

[P0Pz]

On Sunday, June 04, 2017 at 1:22 PM, Lucavee said:

Give decoy Iron Skin / Snow Globe / Warding Halo mechanic. Decoy is invulnerable for the first few seconds, damage absorbed during invulnerability period is then added to decoy's maximum health/shield.

As for Decoy placement, i have no clue how to fix that.

This.

Maybe add: while "shortly" invulnerable, % chance to pop another "clone-decoy" randomly within 15meters radius arround the "orginal decoy", while under fire. Max up to 3/4 at the same time. If triggered the 5th time, while 3/4 decoys are already up, refreshes the "invulnerable" of the 1st decoy once.

Lokis clon-decoys. 

[Dragazer]

I agree Decoy is way to fragile to be of much use at all in high levels, just make the Decoy duration based completely. I mean why would a hologram have health? 

At least this would make the augment for it actually reliable to use.

I mean come on, Octavia's Mallet completely kicks decoy in the balls

It does the exact same thing drawing aggro away, but just better in every way, its invincible and it also reflects enemy damage back amplified.

Edited June 6, 2017 by Dragazer