Dojo Duels are underrated

[firephoenixearl]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Rapid Resilience was released because of a backlash from the community back the the day getting pissed off (go figure) from eximus and grineer status procs and infested love of toxin and magnetic procs. How that transferred to dueling was a side effect, like maiming strike. The adjustments to dueling came after pvp 2.0 was released and DE wanted to make a legitimate pvp aspect to the game. Dueling was basically their experimentation room for this, as stuff like iron skin losing health over time was implemented into dueling before anything else. A while ago, crits were removed shortly for dueling, a feature that was then introduced into conclave and then crits were returned to dueling. Mentioning of this was minimal though as DE really is against a pvp focused game and only wants pvp for the sake of having that aspect. There was a time when dueling use to be a big thing for players, but as we see, DE's focus has and always will be PvE and Conclave. Fyi, a 10m radial slide attack of 2500 toxin damage is pretty nasty compared to anything else most people will be throwing out. Use the Gazal Machete. Its better in literally every way. It even has the knockdown. With Drifting contract and virulent scourge, you will never ever lose, because even if they out damage you and kill you first, your chance of getting a toxin proc are so high that you only need to tag them once or twice that'll kill them too.

Nah man, I'm fine using my machete wraith, it's just bae, as for the procs don't worry, i'm not relying on them to win. Also about DE not "wanting" to have a pvp game....well why did they even make balancing changes to dojo (somewhat balancing anyway), why did they introduce a better way of hosting, why didn't they just remove dojo dueling i mean we already have a "better" way of pvp-ing (thats what most ppl say anyway). There are too many stuff for u or me to know for certain.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

11 hours ago, firephoenixearl said:

Nah man, I'm fine using my machete wraith, it's just bae, as for the procs don't worry, i'm not relying on them to win. Also about DE not "wanting" to have a pvp game....well why did they even make balancing changes to dojo (somewhat balancing anyway), why did they introduce a better way of hosting, why didn't they just remove dojo dueling i mean we already have a "better" way of pvp-ing (thats what most ppl say anyway). There are too many stuff for u or me to know for certain.

 Of course, but the real reason for dojo changes is experimentation for conclave. It isn't "not wanting" pvp, it's for the purpose of not having a pvp FOCUS. I honestly think they only have dueling now just for the sake of those who still use it (us lol). I never see anymore people asking for duels for plat. Its a lost art. The reason for all the changes to dueling, improving the game. This isn't DE focusing on one aspect of the game, this is them trying to improve the game as a whole.

[Mental_Omega]

Melee will need to be a bit more involved than it is now for me to find a melee only duel to be all that engaging.   

Some actual counter, parry and dodge system for melee combat would go a long way to making it not mostly about whose mashing of the various combos does the most damage.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Mental_Omega

[firephoenixearl]

1 hour ago, Mental_Omega said:

Melee will need to be a bit more involved than it is now for me to find a melee only duel to be all that engaging.   

Some actual counter, parry and dodge system for melee combat would go a long way to making it not mostly about whose mashing of the various combos does the most damage.

No, man dueling isn't about mashing combos, it's about dodging, timing, keeping your eye on the opponent, combo mashing is just for the newcomers. It's like watching 2 4 y/o kids playing football and saying: "football is just about who hits the ball first". Dueling has a lot to offer, way more than what the community sees. 

[Mental_Omega]

Just now, firephoenixearl said:

No, man dueling isn't about mashing combos, it's about dodging, timing, keeping your eye on the opponent, combo mashing is just for the newcomers. It's like watching 2 4 y/o kids playing football and saying: "football is just about who hits the ball first". Dueling has a lot to offer, way more than what the community sees. 

And ultimately, that's all just positioning for being the first one to get your instant death combo out the gate.   

As I said, I really would like some more interplay in melee combat.   Parries in particular.   It would help make it feel more like I'm engaging in melee and less like I'm just watching window dressing over number crunching.

[VoxGray]

PvP isn't refined enough for nearly anyone to agree with you, OP. In order for PvP to feel truly competitive, we need to have finer control over the actions of our characters. How they attack, where they dodge and move. A splendid example of this would be to look at Dark Souls, or For Honor, two games intensely focused on PvP. Dodge-rolls, combo chains, basic movement, everything there is attuned to close-quarters combat against single foes. Warframe simply can compete with that level of finesse. This is a good thing. Warframe is PvE-centered, and based around the concept of slaughtering hordes of incoming enemies. We need to be able to dodge in large, sweeping motions, move as swiftly as possible, attack large areas at once. The kind of slow refinement you see in PvP-focused games runs directly counter to this.

So go ahead and enjoy Warframe's duel system if you want. DE's put in the time to make it decent and potentially fun, and nobody is trying to say you're not allowed to like it. But don't try and push it as some sort of hidden gem of exquisite balance and design. The simple fact is it isn't, and shouldn't be, refined to the point that most people enjoy playing it.

[firephoenixearl]

2 minutes ago, EmissaryOfInfinity said:

PvP isn't refined enough for nearly anyone to agree with you, OP. In order for PvP to feel truly competitive, we need to have finer control over the actions of our characters. How they attack, where they dodge and move. A splendid example of this would be to look at Dark Souls, or For Honor, two games intensely focused on PvP. Dodge-rolls, combo chains, basic movement, everything there is attuned to close-quarters combat against single foes. Warframe simply can compete with that level of finesse. This is a good thing. Warframe is PvE-centered, and based around the concept of slaughtering hordes of incoming enemies. We need to be able to dodge in large, sweeping motions, move as swiftly as possible, attack large areas at once. The kind of slow refinement you see in PvP-focused games runs directly counter to this.

So go ahead and enjoy Warframe's duel system if you want. DE's put in the time to make it decent and potentially fun, and nobody is trying to say you're not allowed to like it. But don't try and push it as some sort of hidden gem of exquisite balance and design. The simple fact is it isn't, and shouldn't be, refined to the point that most people enjoy playing it.

Well 3/4 ppl who have dueled me or seen my friends duel have nearly dropped PvE for it, doesn't that say something, that it's not "weird" (weird in a sense that only few ppl like it cus it's that bad compared to PvE) to like dueling, once u see ppl just moving all over the place, dodging the other's attacks u rly start getting into it, thats why im saying that dueling needs level to be enjoyed at it's fullest cus u don't just have a press button for dodge u only have a roll in which u are still vulnerable to attacks, but in high levels u start to understand that the roll is actually all u need to dodge. That is just an example, but the same can be said about the combos (duelers time combos not spam them). And it rly gives u a kind of skill u rly enjoy using in PvE too, i have tried it.

[firephoenixearl]

26 minutes ago, Mental_Omega said:

And ultimately, that's all just positioning for being the first one to get your instant death combo out the gate.   

As I said, I really would like some more interplay in melee combat.   Parries in particular.   It would help make it feel more like I'm engaging in melee and less like I'm just watching window dressing over number crunching.

Well parries do exist, and they are quite rewarding, there is no timing required, just positioning. If u parry once u reflect the full attack back (dmg and even status), so yeah that's quite a big deal don't ya think?

[(PSN)Crixus044]

11 hours ago, EmissaryOfInfinity said:

PvP isn't refined enough for nearly anyone to agree with you, OP. In order for PvP to feel truly competitive, we need to have finer control over the actions of our characters. How they attack, where they dodge and move. A splendid example of this would be to look at Dark Souls, or For Honor, two games intensely focused on PvP. Dodge-rolls, combo chains, basic movement, everything there is attuned to close-quarters combat against single foes. Warframe simply can compete with that level of finesse. This is a good thing. Warframe is PvE-centered, and based around the concept of slaughtering hordes of incoming enemies. We need to be able to dodge in large, sweeping motions, move as swiftly as possible, attack large areas at once. The kind of slow refinement you see in PvP-focused games runs directly counter to this.

So go ahead and enjoy Warframe's duel system if you want. DE's put in the time to make it decent and potentially fun, and nobody is trying to say you're not allowed to like it. But don't try and push it as some sort of hidden gem of exquisite balance and design. The simple fact is it isn't, and shouldn't be, refined to the point that most people enjoy playing it.

I agree that the pvp system to warframe isn't refined enough to be competitive, but it should definitely not be slow as molasses like dark souls.  Warframe is not a game of larger-than-life characters with overly slow movements that are hardly realistic or even fitting in warframe. Something that slow would make me want to shoot myself in warframe with a tonkor. Dueling is fine as an aspect and while i have my disagreements with the op about some of his remarks, the game mode itself is unique and should stay that way.  The "moving around for the one hit ko" is what separates conclave from dueling. Unlike conclave that's about balanced fighting and sparring, meaning longer and more sustained fights (even though it's just turned into meta players using 1hko weapons that not everybody else has), dueling's about finding the right angle, avoiding shots, and getting the perfect opportunity to take the guy out with the perfect strike, or perfect flurry of combos. Sometimes, if built right, you can survive quite a few hits. Some of the best duels I've had are bows vs melee or sniper vs bow. Its actually quite fun because while there is that 1hko aspect, it somewhat balances out the odds. We are equal in the ability to kill eachother very quickly.

One of my favorite things to do is a mid air bullet jump bow shot to an enemy on the ground. Or jump melee on a wall latcher or aim glider. If i feel like being an a-hole to an a-hole, I'll pull out an orthos p with primed reach and maiming strike and full toxin. If i want to go full hardcore, I'll grab my karyst or jat kittag. If i want to be cool, I'll use a Jat Kittag or really any random melee weapon built right. I've taken dueling builds with me to pve and it has helped me to really understand this game so much more than i could've done just playing endless runs. I even use my duel build orthos prime on corpus runs because of just how effective it is at avoiding hits, maintaining distance, doing a whole lot of damage in a huge radial area, and fighting shielded enemies. It's traits that the corpus excel at. They have blitzkrieg nullifiers and scrambus that try to get close, extremely high damage techs and bursas, high damage but slow melee prod and combas, focus on shields, aerial and ground based enemies, and their maps are parkour central, unlike the small hallways of the grineer or towering rooms of the void. All of that I learned and honed in dueling my friends who always said i had a natural knack for it. So yes, it is very helpful, fun if you can do well, and rewarding not in loot, but in satisfaction, that your gaming skills are on point.

I would not hate on dueling and count it as a second rate aspect to the game, just something that if you have the time to learn, it can really help you master the game faster, but it takes patience that most of us can't afford. So that's my peace with it. 

[firephoenixearl]

13 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I agree that the pvp system to warframe isn't refined enough to be competitive, but it should definitely not be slow as molasses like dark souls.  Warframe is not a game of larger-than-life characters with overly slow movements that are hardly realistic or even fitting in warframe. Something that slow would make me want to shoot myself in warframe with a tonkor. Dueling is fine as an aspect and while i have my disagreements with the op about some of his remarks, the game mode itself is unique and should stay that way.  The "moving around for the one hit ko" is what separates conclave from dueling. Unlike conclave that's about balanced fighting and sparring, meaning longer and more sustained fights (even though it's just turned into meta players using 1hko weapons that not everybody else has), dueling's about finding the right angle, avoiding shots, and getting the perfect opportunity to take the guy out with the perfect strike, or perfect flurry of combos. Sometimes, if built right, you can survive quite a few hits. Some of the best duels I've had are bows vs melee or sniper vs bow. Its actually quite fun because while there is that 1hko aspect, it somewhat balances out the odds. We are equal in the ability to kill eachother very quickly.

One of my favorite things to do is a mid air bullet jump bow shot to an enemy on the ground. Or jump melee on a wall latcher or aim glider. If i feel like being an a-hole to an a-hole, I'll pull out an orthos p with primed reach and maiming strike and full toxin. If i want to go full hardcore, I'll grab my karyst or jat kittag. If i want to be cool, I'll use a Jat Kittag or really any random melee weapon built right. I've taken dueling builds with me to pve and it has helped me to really understand this game so much more than i could've done just playing endless runs. I even use my duel build orthos prime on corpus runs because of just how effective it is at avoiding hits, maintaining distance, doing a whole lot of damage in a huge radial area, and fighting shielded enemies. It's traits that the corpus excel at. They have blitzkrieg nullifiers and scrambus that try to get close, extremely high damage techs and bursas, high damage but slow melee prod and combas, focus on shields, aerial and ground based enemies, and their maps are parkour central, unlike the small hallways of the grineer or towering rooms of the void. All of that I learned and honed in dueling my friends who always said i had a natural knack for it. So yes, it is very helpful, fun if you can do well, and rewarding not in loot, but in satisfaction, that your gaming skills are on point.

I would not hate on dueling and count it as a second rate aspect to the game, just something that if you have the time to learn, it can really help you master the game faster, but it takes patience that most of us can't afford. So that's my peace with it. 

1st time i hear someone being that right about dueling. Damn son im actualy amazed, while the bow/sniper vs melee part is quite arguable (some ppl just move to much for u to get them with bow, ppl can't hit me with shotguns/redeemer) but with most ppl is yeah pretty good, we usualy use melee vs quanta vandal though to improve our parkour. Still though u were for the most part on point regarding duels *clap,clap*

[Sziklamester]

Duels are for fun and if the partner is good it could be satisfaction. Conclave also could be better but I didn't tried yet so maybe need to give a shot. Lunaro also could be fun but need larger teams and a larger arena. At least you play duels for fun. 

[FireSegment]

sorry, im a little confused, is there any other rule when u saying melee only duel? because the last time i recall, all there is to do is just who spin faster to win, and if u dont have atterax+ prime reach, u lose.... 

that being said, i had a fair share of melee only back when we still have stamina bar though

[(XBOX)Graysmog]

Eh, I don't see it.

You're in a tiny arena you can hardly edit or customize against another player. You both have access to ridiculous Mods, weapons, Warframes and Companions.

Unless DE somehow manages to balance Dojo Duels, I'll never truly be interested in them since they rely on PVE mechanics that obviously aren't fair.

[firephoenixearl]

9 hours ago, Sziklamester said:

Duels are for fun and if the partner is good it could be satisfaction. Conclave also could be better but I didn't tried yet so maybe need to give a shot. Lunaro also could be fun but need larger teams and a larger arena. At least you play duels for fun. 

Conclave is not too bad but still u just can't be creative in conclave, thats why i like duels, i'd like to duel u sometime, i'll add u when im given the chance.

[Sziklamester]

6 minutes ago, firephoenixearl said:

Conclave is not too bad but still u just can't be creative in conclave, thats why i like duels, i'd like to duel u sometime, i'll add u when im given the chance.

Thankies mate I am accept the challenge. 

[firephoenixearl]

8 hours ago, FireSegment said:

sorry, im a little confused, is there any other rule when u saying melee only duel? because the last time i recall, all there is to do is just who spin faster to win, and if u dont have atterax+ prime reach, u lose.... 

that being said, i had a fair share of melee only back when we still have stamina bar though

Hmm there are more rules if u'r gonna duel against other players, but atterax + p reach is the worst thing u could use against The Dueling Gang (me and a couple of friends who duel a lot) because atterax + p reach (and especially maiming strike) is not op in any way, it just takes some time to learn about it's 1 BIG flaw. But for the other rules u can check this out. Sometimes ppl say i use these rules to fit my own playstyle so sometimes i don't mind if my opponent is against every rule, if u want u can duel me (i will follow the rules) without following the rules, i wouldn't mind showing u why atterax isn't that good. I'll add u when i get the chance. It'll be fun to duel u.

 

[firephoenixearl]

Just now, Sziklamester said:

Thankies mate I am accept the challenge. 

Noice, not many ppl do these days :(, or they just leave after the 1st duel, we need more ppl like u.

[Sziklamester]

Just now, firephoenixearl said:

Noice, not many ppl do these days :(, or they just leave after the 1st duel, we need more ppl like u.

I played duel some times ago but my gear wont be so great, at least we can test our skillzzz.

[firephoenixearl]

7 hours ago, (Xbox One)Graysmog said:

Eh, I don't see it.

You're in a tiny arena you can hardly edit or customize against another player. You both have access to ridiculous Mods, weapons, Warframes and Companions.

Unless DE somehow manages to balance Dojo Duels, I'll never truly be interested in them since they rely on PVE mechanics that obviously aren't fair.

They are fair, more than u may have ever thought, if i can be good with any melee, doesn't that mean it's fair? Also ridiculous mods go for both weapon and warframe making the advantages pretty negligible. U have to try duels to understand them ,i hardly recommend u try duels. 

[firephoenixearl]

5 minutes ago, Sziklamester said:

I played duel some times ago but my gear wont be so great, at least we can test our skillzzz.

Well if i can beat valkyr with nyx using a half assed build u can do anything xD.

Edited June 21, 2017 by firephoenixearl

[VoxGray]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

I agree that the pvp system to warframe isn't refined enough to be competitive, but it should definitely not be slow as molasses like dark souls

You haven't checked into the Souls scene since the first game, have you? Dark Souls is slower than Warframe, and the first game is unbearably slow-paced at times, I'll give you that, but DS3 is anything but slow-paced. Unless you get pitted against a runner, but that's a whole different can of worms...

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

10 minutes ago, EmissaryOfInfinity said:

You haven't checked into the Souls scene since the first game, have you? Dark Souls is slower than Warframe, and the first game is unbearably slow-paced at times, I'll give you that, but DS3 is anything but slow-paced. Unless you get pitted against a runner, but that's a whole different can of worms...

After watching the video posted of duels and getting bored as it took 10 minutes for one person to 2 shot the other, I'm not sure that duels in this game are faster-paced than DS.  

[firephoenixearl]

14 minutes ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

After watching the video posted of duels and getting bored as it took 10 minutes for one person to 2 shot the other, I'm not sure that duels in this game are faster-paced than DS.  

Hmm...what video, im curious.

[(XBOX)R3d P01nt]

1 minute ago, firephoenixearl said:

Hmm...what video, im curious.

The link to Twitch, which I'm assuming is the same as the one posted by someone else a couple days ago.  You two should go duel each other since you're both 1337, no-scope, 360 assassins that have never been beaten and need a challenge.

BTW, the Conclave people make the same boasts about real skill that you do.  I'm unimpressed by both groups.

[firephoenixearl]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)R3d P01nt said:

The link to Twitch, which I'm assuming is the same as the one posted by someone else a couple days ago.  You two should go duel each other since you're both 1337, no-scope, 360 assassins that have never been beaten and need a challenge.

BTW, the Conclave people make the same boasts about real skill that you do.  I'm unimpressed by both groups.

Well if u mean adrenalyn on twitch well...yeah...it IS fast paced, how long it takes for 1 person to lose does not say how fast paced a game is. Basketball is arguably 1 of the most fast paced sports but it takes 40 min for someone to lose, a typical duel between 2 good players takes around 20 seconds, if im one of the challengers it takes 40-59 seconds, fast paced means how fast someones reactions need to be to play it well/how fast the movement is, and well if u saw adrenalyn on twitch i guess u know by now that is PRETTY fast. And well...conclave is pretty lame skill based, a friend of mine is mainly a dueler but when he went to conclave he won by scoring 16 more than the guy in 2nd place (he was only using melee, the others were using everything), while i have yet  to see a guy who does conclave be any kind of good in duels. 

Edited June 21, 2017 by firephoenixearl