Self damage is ruining the explosive weapons & Fix suggestions

[Fallen_Echo]

10 hours ago, Shikkoku said:

The funny thing, that he could bring an MK1-Braton, the most lame and weakest primary and do just as well as with tonkor except death... just get a punch through mod on it... other weapons can have the same crowd-killing ability with a simple mod. They should change something for self-damaging weapons: and my suggestions are:
1. percentage self damage (still punishing but not overwhelming)
2. insane damage buff for them. So it would worth the risk. Because now it isn't worth the risk. 

(shield gating only half-solution because Nidus and Inaros)

Just bring ignis with max range and spread and you can shred up anything without ever risking killing yourself.

Also i vow for the 2nd option, if my explosive cant shred up a group of fodder mob why should i even use it?

[DreamsmithJane]

13 hours ago, Shikkoku said:

The funny thing, that he could bring an MK1-Braton, the most lame and weakest primary and do just as well as with tonkor except death... just get a punch through mod on it... other weapons can have the same crowd-killing ability with a simple mod.

If you think Shred can cause a low damage, low crit, low status automatic rifle to replicate Tonkor performance, I'm not sure what to say to you...

[BoomyGordo]

19 hours ago, Shikkoku said:

The funny thing, that he could bring an MK1-Braton, the most lame and weakest primary and do just as well as with tonkor except death... just get a punch through mod on it... other weapons can have the same crowd-killing ability with a simple mod. They should change something for self-damaging weapons: and my suggestions are:
1. percentage self damage (still punishing but not overwhelming)
2. insane damage buff for them. So it would worth the risk. Because now it isn't worth the risk. 

(shield gating only half-solution because Nidus and Inaros)

are... are you serious? you think a punch through mod will replicate a 1 shot room clear weapons performance? this is a ludicrous argument that adds nothing to the conversation.

also both nidus and innaros can survive the self damage quite easily, and if you are taking self damage so many times that you cant survive even with them.. then use a different weapon or learn how to be careful with self damage weapons because at that point its your own fault

[Fallen_Echo]

12 hours ago, --Shadow-Stalker-- said:

are... are you serious? you think a punch through mod will replicate a 1 shot room clear weapons performance? this is a ludicrous argument that adds nothing to the conversation.

also both nidus and innaros can survive the self damage quite easily, and if you are taking self damage so many times that you cant survive even with them.. then use a different weapon or learn how to be careful with self damage weapons because at that point its your own fault

Well you can pick the ignis with a punchtrought mod and you got insta room cleaning especially on the level this guy was.

A fully modded tonkor can easily kill inaros in one shot and take out nidus easily if he has not collected enough stacks.

At this point whenever i see someone using an explosive weapon in this game and die due to someone/something getting closer than they thought its safe i just let them die. We dont need players who risks others life by dying when the horde charges.

 

[Acropole]

On 28/07/2017 at 4:03 AM, YUNoJump said:

a) Nice dev-bashing, inb4 mods.

b) You're quite a few months late, back when they nerfed the Tonkor everyone already tried to make your argument, and the universal response is "if you were only playing Warframe for the Tonkor, then you aren't the sort of player that the game is designed for". If you can't find a single other weapon to enjoy in the entire game (or even just deal with the self-damage), then you probably aren't the sort of person for Warframe. 

My way to play is not your business. And not DE buisness anymore...

[BoomyGordo]

8 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Well you can pick the ignis with a punchtrought mod and you got insta room cleaning especially on the level this guy was.

A fully modded tonkor can easily kill inaros in one shot and take out nidus easily if he has not collected enough stacks.

At this point whenever i see someone using an explosive weapon in this game and die due to someone/something getting closer than they thought its safe i just let them die. We dont need players who risks others life by dying when the horde charges.

 

fully modded tonkor crit on innaros leaves me with ~300 hp. easily enough to recover from in most cases. and yes i agree that if some one is just repeatedly killing them selves then let them learn their lesson the hard way.

also ignis has innate punthrough in the form of a cone of AoE. you dont need a punch through mod on it, just aim between the enemies

[YUNoJump]

7 hours ago, Acropole said:

My way to play is not your business. And not DE buisness anymore...

It's nobody's business how you play, but if you expect DE to personally accommodate your playstyle in all developmental decisions, then clearly you WANT it to be their business.

They can't develop for every playstyle at once. Lots of people like no-self-damage Tonkor, but lots more hate seeing it everywhere, having it steal all their kills, and the fact that the only reason it didn't have self damage was for a feature that is 100% obsolete. DE develops for the majority so don't complain when your minority views aren't included, especially when you insult everyone who does you any wrong.

[Fallen_Echo]

9 hours ago, --Shadow-Stalker-- said:

fully modded tonkor crit on innaros leaves me with ~300 hp. easily enough to recover from in most cases. and yes i agree that if some one is just repeatedly killing them selves then let them learn their lesson the hard way.

also ignis has innate punthrough in the form of a cone of AoE. you dont need a punch through mod on it, just aim between the enemies

The ignis has an aoe on its end, its the beam what moves in a cone and it doesnt have any punchtrough.

[(XBOX)bigsnake84]

I disagree with any removal of self damage from explosive weaponry. The balance is gaining strong AoE damage at the risk of hurting yourself.

BUT there should be a self damage cap so it isnt an instant suicide upon easy mistakes. Maybe explosives can only self harm 40% of health at a time. Thatd give you three strikes before you're out from full health.

Honestly 3 shots seems a bit too forgiving but shields would not have this capped damage leaving you very vulnerable if not armored... until that shield gating idea finally becomes a thing lol

[Fallen_Echo]

5 hours ago, (Xbox One)bigsnake84 said:

The balance is gaining strong AoE damage at the risk of hurting yourself.

Our problem is that the strong aoe is not happening expect on the tonkor and maybe the secura penta.

The kulstar for example is generally useless for anything else than proccing blast on big groups and yet it still murders most frames.

IF every explosive weapon would deal guaranteed 25% max hp scaling damage to a group then i would be fine with the self damage since these are indeed powerful and dangerous weapons but this is not the case.

 

 

Also i agree with your cap idea.

[DeadlyBard676]

"A Bullet may have someones name on it but explosives are more "To Whom it may concern.'"

[(PSN)DarkYagami-DSC-e]

Hell no keep self damage but let me kill my party with the tonkor since everyone is still so against the removing it. I would learn to aim then, your tears would be a lovely tribute to the memory of my Rocket jump. 

[(PSN)DarkYagami-DSC-e]

On ‎7‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 8:42 PM, YUNoJump said:

It's nobody's business how you play, but if you expect DE to personally accommodate your playstyle in all developmental decisions, then clearly you WANT it to be their business.

They can't develop for every playstyle at once. Lots of people like no-self-damage Tonkor, but lots more hate seeing it everywhere, having it steal all their kills, and the fact that the only reason it didn't have self damage was for a feature that is 100% obsolete. DE develops for the majority so don't complain when your minority views aren't included, especially when you insult everyone who does you any wrong.

I use the Rocket jump all the way till the end, so 100 percent is a little off my friend. I'm not against self damage but if I launch a grenade the rest of the party should take the same amount of damage. Let me have my revenge on the nerf heard and let the tonkor be my tool.

[DreamsmithJane]

2 hours ago, (PS4)DarkYagami-DSC-e said:

Hell no keep self damage but let me kill my party with the tonkor since everyone is still so against the removing it. I would learn to aim then, your tears would be a lovely tribute to the memory of my Rocket jump. 

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)DarkYagami-DSC-e said:

I use the Rocket jump all the way till the end, so 100 percent is a little off my friend. I'm not against self damage but if I launch a grenade the rest of the party should take the same amount of damage. Let me have my revenge on the nerf heard and let the tonkor be my tool.

You don't want that. Then they'd have to ban you for griefing. There's a reason we don't have friendly fire in this game, just like there's a reason we do have self damage. If you want to rocket jump, play the series that invented it. But wait, Quake has self damage and no friendly fire, too! At least it won't kill you from full health.

By the way, yes, rocket jumping was obsolete before it was removed from Tonkor. People use obsolete stuff all the time. That doesn't make it any less obsolete.

[True_Naeblis]

As others have said, a fixed percentage of health would be a much better design, specifically since as mentioned some frames will not get any help from shield gating. If swapping to other weapons were better then it would be a little less of a headache, but it's not great as is either way.

[YUNoJump]

6 hours ago, (PS4)DarkYagami-DSC-e said:

I use the Rocket jump all the way till the end, so 100 percent is a little off my friend. I'm not against self damage but if I launch a grenade the rest of the party should take the same amount of damage. Let me have my revenge on the nerf heard and let the tonkor be my tool.

It might have been used but it's still obsolete, people still use DOS but that doesn't make it actually better than what we have now. People using it doesn't justify breaking the meta with it.

Maybe if they added an alt-fire that fires a rocket-jump round, that deals no damage to enemies either? 

[Drasiel]

This is way too much for me to read at my current sleepyness level. So I'll just leave the suggestion I always have about self damage on weapons. Explosive projectiles need to have no clipping on other players. You can't equip punchthrough mods on explosives without losing functionality as they will partially explode inside the floor doing nothing. Other players sometimes make a game of trolling explosives users by line of sight diving so that the explosive kills the user. Even when not intended this happens way too much. This alone would be a huge QOL improvement to explosives in general.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Drasiel said:

This is way too much for me to read at my current sleepyness level. So I'll just leave the suggestion I always have about self damage on weapons. Explosive projectiles need to have no clipping on other players. You can't equip punchthrough mods on explosives without losing functionality as they will partially explode inside the floor doing nothing. Other players sometimes make a game of trolling explosives users by line of sight diving so that the explosive kills the user. Even when not intended this happens way too much. This alone would be a huge QOL improvement to explosives in general.

This would be a huge help, i agree.

[Acropole]

Kill steal ? In warframe ?
Just get the loot.

 

Ho, and fun is not obsolete.

[YUNoJump]

1 hour ago, Acropole said:

Kill steal ? In warframe ?
Just get the loot.

 

Ho, and fun is not obsolete.

We still get loot and xp when teammates get kills, but it's not actually fun to play a shooter where someone else kills everything and you just play janitor with the loot. I want to shoot guys, and if another guy on my team is insta-killing entire rooms with ridiculous AoE with no drawbacks, I can't do that.

Fun isn't obsolete, but there's more ways to have fun in Warframe than a crappy rocket jump which offers nothing to any other playstyle (due to parkour 2.0 having an objectively better jump), and I'd rather have fun with things that don't completely break the meta as a side effect.

[Fallen_Echo]

11 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

We still get loot and xp when teammates get kills, but it's not actually fun to play a shooter where someone else kills everything and you just play janitor with the loot. I want to shoot guys, and if another guy on my team is insta-killing entire rooms with ridiculous AoE with no drawbacks, I can't do that.

Fun isn't obsolete, but there's more ways to have fun in Warframe than a crappy rocket jump which offers nothing to any other playstyle (due to parkour 2.0 having an objectively better jump), and I'd rather have fun with things that don't completely break the meta as a side effect.

Killsteal is not an argument. Every player who is a bit slower than the rest of the group in a rush mission could go up here a whine about IF it would matter. Every time someone bring up killsteal in an argument i remember the ash who had problems with us in akkad because he cant tag bladestorm fast enough to get kills because the rest of the group without any aoe weapon managed to kill the infested faster than him (volt, atlas and limbo).

 

Also the rocket jump contributed to parkour 2.0 since it increased the total height/distance one could cover. It wouldnt been that hard to give it to tonkor as a non-damaging altfire.

[Cimbro94]

On 18/7/2017 at 0:09 AM, _firewings_ said:

Self damage is just like say: Well I go to equip a weapon that will kill me in one shot to make all my team mates go and revive me 100 times, or die in the beginning of the mission, waste my 4 revives and not be able to help my team mates in the mission.

The point is that SELF DAMAGE is a lazy way to fix any explosive weapon, it kill the players mostly always in one shot and is a risk for the player and the team, making the weapon USELESS for any kind of strategy.

If we talk about ¨Making the game more reliable to be compared with reality¨ we must take in count that all STATUS/ELEMENTAL types would deal self damage to the players and as so almost ALL weapons would do SELF DAMAGE to the player, something that does not happen, also the environment, something that is far away from the goal of the game.

So making SELF DAMAGE does not fix anything, the explosive weapons still dealing high damage, but makes all of the explosives weapons impossible to use in any mission because the SELF DAMAGE inflicted, also is obvious that you need to shot an explosive weapon in short distance to reach your enemy, some entire maps in Warframe makes it impossible to shot explosive weapons in a large distance because the small dimensions of the rooms and the decorations in them.

It´s really disappointing to see how a fun game becomes so frustrating, making explosive weapons self damage does not stop players using them, self damage does not fix anything, just make the game unfair and stressful for the players.

If others does not like seeing how some players kill a lot of monsters using explosive weapons, just makes them become triggered.

Seeing yourself exploding yourself is stressful and makes the game unplayable using explosive weapons.

There are a lot of players that does not used explosive weapons as their first choice, not using it mean that is not your game style, that not mean that everyone must agree and be as well supporter of your game style, everyone have a game style, everyone prefer a game style over other, that does not make any game style less relevant or worthless than yours.

Remove self damage and fix the weapons correctly, maybe weapons does not even need a fix, no one would quit because seeing others using a good weapon that is asequible for everyone, much players would quit the game for seeing their favorite weapons being the worst enemy of the players now.

I hope moderators read this topic and the other hundred of topics that call for the same cause, implement real fix for the explosive weapons.

Dealing the enough damage to kill the player with the self damage is not a fix for any weapon.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

There are many comments disagreeing about removing self damage:

• Reason 1: Learn to aim.

Reply: Take in count the detonation in fragments of some explosive weapons, the really small accuracy of some explosive weapons, the monsters that appear suddenly in front of you, the possibility of someone that teleport you to the place you shot the explosive, the possibility of bounce again to you, the possibility of multi shot and miss one bullet, and the thousand of other possibilities that makes explosive weapons self-dangerous and unpractical for the use in-battle.

• Reason 2: It valance the weapons.

Reply: It does not valance the weapons, it valance the players. Self damage does not change the weapon any way, it just make the weapon so self-dangerous and worthless risk for most of players.

• Reason 3: Self damage makes the explosive weapons different than the others weapons in the game.

Reply: Being explosive weapons with graphics of an explosive weapon, already makes them different compared to other weapons, the munition of the explosive weapons are as different as a dread arrow and a marelok bullet. Bows can be converted to explosive and deal self damage, making explosive weapons and bows the same thing about the self damage, self damage as so is not something that makes any explosive weapon different to other weapons.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Solutions suggested by players to remove self damage /  fix over use of weapons / make the game more credible:

• Raise mastery rank requirement for more advanced weapons:

Mastery rank is so underrated, it should be raised up, for example tonkor, it should be at least rank 18. Higher mastery rank weapons should be better, and players must be work for them, some players don´t appreciate some weapons because they are too easy to get, if we make weapons harder to get, more players would work harder for them and know that for getting better weapons they must work for it.

• Make it fair, make ALL explosive weapons self damage in the game:

Make the enemies that uses explosive weapons be able to self damage themselves, that way it would be more coherent the self damage, is too obvious and ridiculous that only players damage themselves, make it fair, not all must be an inconvenience for the players.

• Make the shield more/totally resistant to self damage.

That would make the shield more credible, it defend the player, and makes the player more/totally resistant to self damage.

• Make a mod to reduce/nullify self damage:

Making a mod that will reduce the self damage, this mod could start cancelling all self damage or upgrading it to a limit, that limit of reduction of self damage could be as well to 100% or less.

• Fix the self damage:

I made a topic with a Mathematical formula that could fix the problem with the self damage:

Follow the next link to see the math formula to fix self damage: 

This link bring you to the Math formula I made to fix/improve self damage.

This link bring to the old topic I made for the math formula | Now the link bring to a topic discussion about self damage.

What about making explosive weapons have a bubble only cosmetic, like the new LENZ, which it helps too see where and how much big is the explosion radius of the weapon, making it easier to avoid and to get used to...

[Twistedsparkle]

they really should fix it or remove self dmg
by fixing I mean reduce the dmg the further you are away and change the self dmg calculation formula so that you will not be able to 1 shot yourself

I dont use self dmg weapons at all in warframe atm
I think they are unfair and not fun not to mention they dont fit the gameplay at all

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, Cimbro94 said:

What about making explosive weapons have a bubble only cosmetic, like the new LENZ, which it helps too see where and how much big is the explosion radius of the weapon, making it easier to avoid and to get used to...

Thats something what should have been done in the begining, seriously the only reason i know how approx how big is the explosion of the ogris is because it has the nightwatch napalm mod.

[Acropole]

On 03/08/2017 at 0:43 AM, YUNoJump said:

We still get loot and xp when teammates get kills, but it's not actually fun to play a shooter where someone else kills everything and you just play janitor with the loot. I want to shoot guys, and if another guy on my team is insta-killing entire rooms with ridiculous AoE with no drawbacks, I can't do that.

Fun isn't obsolete, but there's more ways to have fun in Warframe than a crappy rocket jump which offers nothing to any other playstyle (due to parkour 2.0 having an objectively better jump), and I'd rather have fun with things that don't completely break the meta as a side effect.

And so because SOMETIMES you don't have fun when you meet me ingame you decided that I should NEVER have fun anymore.
Warframe is a crowd game like diablo, not a single game like doom 3.
And don't say Tonkor kill every ennemies. Reload time prevent this. It's really efficient on large packs. And in many time ennemies are dispatched in the zone, so you can kill "a lot" of them with your single shot weapon while I'm away or reloading or aiming in an other direction. 
And what about Ember vs Infested ? Will you ask DE to ruin this warframe too, like they did with Mag and the Tonkor and Ash ? Will you complain too because others plays better than you ?
F*** companies and players who always lower people who play the best.

Pew pew, I killed ONE ennemy.
Pew pew, I'm dead.
Pew pew, lot's of fun.
Pew pew, 3 resurections left before end of fun.

Bye bye.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Acropole