[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[leadwolf1]

11 minutes ago, Chopx said:

I dont run any of those frames. You're comparing 2 of best frames in the game to Hydroid which even if they did a proper rework probably wouldnt be as good. [DE] doesnt have time to do that rework. Were stuck finding an easy fix to make Hydroid viable and fun to play.

MY apologies but I was just trying to give you a compare to armor that's all.  valker primes armor is 700 base. that is all I am saying 200 does not a tanky frame make.

[Chopx]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)TheHourMan said:

Enemies fall out of Undertow when you move. This makes it much less viable.

Thats why we are trying to push for this

17 hours ago, Chopx said:

I think is more along the lines of what ppl in the community want. Thx SilentDeathReaper27 for going through this thread and writing this up
 

hydroid passive.

on kill summons a tentacle max 10.

this is something the comunity wanted changed and i talked to a few people on a lot of difrent sites this is a passive people are ok with that should be easy to implement.

hydroids barrage ability.

when cast from undertow all shots of barrage hit undertow to kill enemiess trapped in undertow.

hydroids tidal surge ability.

all this ability needs is to increase in size with range mods.

And possibly  be able to jump cancel it.

hydroids undertow ability.

this one needs the most work but it is all simple changes.

1. enemies trapped in undertow are trapped even after moving i.e. Tidal Surge.

2. make undertow a castable duration based ability.

3. after casting undertow you can leave it and the undertow should stay for the duration.

4. while in undertow hydroid should get a damage buff on all abilities.

5. when hydroid leaves the undertow he should get a armor buff.

6. make enemies visible within undertow

basically hydroid could go from a low range dps frame to a long range hard CC tank with the use of undertow.

hydroids tentacle swarm ability.

1. enemies killed by tentacles have a chance to drop energy.

2. enemies hit by tentacles are knocked down instead of grabbed.

3. optional if you want to see enemys flying DE make the dead bodies ragdoll when hit with tentacles.

the goal of this was to be easy for DE to implement and fit the theam of hydroid DE has but to also make hydroid more loved by the community.

optional dash ability.

when hydroid dashes he becomes  a water like version  of himself  becomein knock  down immune  and possibly status  immune for a brief  time.

down sides to hydroid.

energy costs.

abilities casted from undertow have less CC range.

you can take a way the stelth undertow gives hydroid.

enemies with high CC. 

 

[(PSN)Joulevette12]

to be hoest Hydroid doent need a major rework he just need tweaked alil thats all compared to limbo

i do agree Undertow need to  be a placement ability allowing him to  go freely in and out of it without having to cancel it and u dont really have to submerged them if you dont want to  u can just only use it to boost your other abilities then having to just standing in it draging ppl in it that killing them slowly wasting energy

making it so u can use it as CC,Buff and  a Emergency escape more freely withought being limited and hindering other players

+

 

 

[leadwolf1]

So for all who actually read  here a bit of a joke , hydroid has now turned into a frog in undertow able to tong lash his enemies and have them for dinner.

[Soshoryu]

I love my Hydriod since i first got it play it a lot. However it does feel it needs  some love. Some of the current changes are quiet  a nice QOL changes and here are some of my ideas that could further help him.

The current changes to Hydriod's 1 and 4 been able to be charged/powered up. This needs something similar to harrow that you can see more clearly or just as your holding it the key the ability icons change to a % number increasing to the max dmg % increase bonus/max no. of tentacles. Currently the AOE on ground starts small and gets larger ( not to mention its quiet hard to see for some reason, unless in dark maps ). Other then that the changes seem fine ( would love the corrosive to be built in to 1 but doubt it would happen ).

The tidal wave 2 needs to be cancel-able by hitting 2 again, using under tow at end of tidal wave is nice but needs the option to return to warframe after tidal. It would be great that if while you are in Under Tow and use Tidal wave it could capture all enemies into the pool once you stop at your destination. If people are worried about the drain it could be an ability mod.

The changes to under tow are nice however i think a few more things need to be done. The movement and ability to drag enemies in is great. But they still dont seem to come towards you while under tow is active. A change that i think would be nice is when using under tow Hydriod becomes transparent like the water tentacle with the pool beneath him, also when using the left click  to drag enemies in his arm would make the motion the the tentacle fires. With the ability to draw fire enemies would come towards him, helping makes his other abilities feel more connected. Ability mod could increase number of enemies able to be pulled in at once perhaps. Also when you jump out of under tow you should be able to bullet jump up like a majestic dolphin xD. But for some reason you do a small hop.

Release the pervert i think is fine a little damage scaling would be nice, i would like that when you use under tow (using my idea) then released the Kraken. That the Kraken would rise up from underneath you so that it looks like you are standing on top of him and he would last the duration while you had undertow active. Leaving under tow, the Kraken would hide and the tentacles continue their duration. More a nice visual change then anything but would look like your standing on helm of a ship :D.

These are some the changes i would do to Hydriod nothing seems to drastic in my opinion what are your thoughts? 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Soshoryu

[Buddhakingpen]

1 hour ago, RikerWatts said:

Any frame can work. Old limbo used to be a GOD at kuva siphon with a loki. Now his change makes it impossible to work, but you know what? As much as I don't like Limbo now, I understand what his rework is thematically, and gameplay wise. He is meant to pull people between the fabrics of reality, completely understandable.
I found solid uses for all of OLD limbo's abilities, yet it was disregarded and changed to what it is now. Because people BELIEVED him to be the worst-of-the-worst. Frames like Hydroid, Atlas, Zephyr, and Mag suffer more than old limbo did, yet people felt it needed for a massive change, so DE followed.

Hydroid needs to be what he was directed TO be after the removal of stamina, a scurvy sea dog captian of the ocean's wrath that commands the waves to turn the tides of battle in his favor. NOT BECOME THEM.
Nobody likes hydroid sitting underwater all game.
Nobody likes his tentacles flinging enemies around and doing no damage whatsoever.
Nobody likes the fact that you have to hard lean on a stat to make him work (Duration or range, pick one. Both make 2 abilities useless.)
Nobody wants his abilities to stay the same, my fixes reuse who he is and changes one ability entirely, and removes the passive he currently has since melee focused passives on a not innately melee frame is useless.
Excalibur, Wukong, Valkyr- theirs makes sense, they HAVE melee built in. Hydroid does not. Don't justify it, it won't be justified.

1) youre projecting what you think his theme should be onto him and are mad that he isnt that. DE  wanted him to be a melee based cc frame with a water theme. Everything else is headcannon

2) You dont sit in undertow all game. Its a safe way to cast cc and get into melee range to utilize stealth melee damage. You tidal surge in, undertow on a group, throw down a tempest barrage or 2, jump out, slam attack. With the right melee weapon modded the right way, almost all DEAC will die from that

3) I'm with you on Tentacle swarm, sadly, the community got used to that being his primary ability when its the one you should be using the least. Keep in mind there are plenty of frames who ppl consider great who have moves that people just dont use often (trinity's 1, embers 1 and kinda 3, nyx's 2 novas 1, etc)

4) You really dont have to lean hard on any stat. Its actually really easy to build him imo because he's doesnt need power strength at all, so just toss a generic loki or nyx build on him with your augment of choice and he does fine. I use both duration and range and I use all 4 abilities... So i have no clue what youre talking about.  If anything my only problem is that if i use more than 200% duration then it becomes hard to stop my tidal surge where i want to. Which i think is ok, because then i get to have more range by using a weaker narrow minded.

5)I'm down with minor tweaks. But imo he doesnt need a complete overhaul. People just need to learn to utilize the tools theyre given (or just dont play the frame! Not every frame is for everybody, no matter how good they are). Also... hydroid is totally a melee frame. All of his moves are a set up to do ground finishers,  have stealth melee multipliers, or lock enemies into an unalert state. You dont need to be beat over the head with "this is a melee frame". You dont need an exalted weapon, to be a stealth frame or to be a supertank to be a melee frame

 

[leadwolf1]

10 minutes ago, Chopx said:

Thats why we are trying to push for this

 

SO for my  comment, even the hungriest person gets tired of eating the same thing and will not eat it any longer. On one had, when criticized you say it is not your idea , then next when someone says a problem you shove the changes you want to them and take ownership and say that's why we,. I really think some are good but not all and you need to compromise and adjust so the whole or majority of the community on this page will agree with it// and Maybe then DE will actually take some into consideration and implement it.

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

5 minutes ago, Buddhakingpen said:

5)I'm down with minor tweaks. But imo he doesnt need a complete overhaul. People just need to get their head out of their asses and learn to utilize the tools their given (or just dont play the frame! Not every frame is for everybody, no matter how good they are). Also... hydroid is totally a melee frame. All of his moves are a set up to do ground finishers,  have stealth melee multipliers, or lock enemies into an unalert state. You dont need to be beat over the head with "this is a melee frame". You dont need an exalted weapon, to be a stealth frame or to be a supertank to be a melee frame

 

Pretty much this ^ I wouldn't know about the melee part since I've not played Hydroid ever, since he's gated behind one of the most boring boss fights right next to the re-worked Raptors, but he's also very cc, the potential is there in all his abilities, it just needs to be brought out.

[Aeryes]

So Hydroid was the first frame I actually bought with plat and I've always loved his theme. I've been looking forward to him getting some love and I have to say kudos to you DE for sticking with his concept, I think its a massive step in the right direction and I'm glad you didn't cave in to the masses who want him to be stripped of his CC theme to be yet another damage frame.

I do have a couple of changes I'd like to see though.

The first is a pretty simple one and I'm assuming there's a chance we might see something on it this week. I'm talking about either further increasing undertow's damage or having it ramp up much much quicker. I really like the emphasis on undertow and despite most people disliking the ability I think it was smart to build him around it. But I think more people would like it if you didn't have to sit around for so long before the damage starts to be significant, given he really doesn't have any other sources of damage to begin with.

Don't get me wrong the changes are great, we can move, we have synergy with other skills, we can pull people in so there is a lot going on compared to how it was but as long as he has that long slow damage ramp up time it's just not going to jam with people. I think it'd be great to see undertow as his source of power and endgame scaling. It would be a very satisfying playstyle Tidal surging around clumping up a huge group of enemies then drowning them in the abyss.

My second suggestion is a bit more elaborate and its regarding a fix for what I see as the other problem he has left. Tentacle Swarm.

What is the problem with Tentacle Swarm you might say? Well.. Quite simply it does exactly the same thing as Tempest Barrage and even has the same charge up functionality. They both have the same element of randomness too. They are raw CC abilities and the only thing which separates them is Tempest knocks enemies down making them easy to kill, whilst Tentacle Swarm flops them around all over the place making it extremely difficult to shoot them. So... What purpose does Tentacle swarm serve?

I'll get to the point shall I? Honestly I'd really like to see Tentacle Swarm removed. Perhaps make it his passive instead, periodically spawning a tentacle as you roam around which slaps enemies for a reasonable amount of damage or maybe knocks them down adding even more CC to his kit and maintaining his more iconic visuals.

And finally to fill his ultimate slot I'd like to see something along the lines of "Water Spout".

Basically it would be a huge torrent of water which erupts from your undertow, this ability would only be usable while in undertow and would do massive damage to all enemies trapped in it. This way his undertow scaling can stay as it is and this new ability would complete the playstyle, gather enemies, submerge them, smash them to death with water spouts.

It sounds like a pretty satisfying playstyle to me.

All in all a step in the right direction, hoping for those undertow buffs.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Aeryes

[Chopx]

13 minutes ago, leadwolf1 said:

SO for my  comment, even the hungriest person gets tired of eating the same thing and will not eat it any longer. On one had, when criticized you say it is not your idea , then next when someone says a problem you shove the changes you want to them and take ownership and say that's why we,. I really think some are good but not all and you need to compromise and adjust so the whole or majority of the community on this page will agree with it// and Maybe then DE will actually take some into consideration and implement it.

I said we because everyone is on the same page for this change. Even you

Edited August 14, 2017 by Chopx

[(XBOX)Grimsley Clause]

Energy is still a problem, and if you don't have Prime Flow, you're not going to do well. I honestly think if he, with Prime Flow, was capable of reaching 550 or at least 600, then his abilities could use less efficency, allowing us to use more useful mods to buff his powers, rather than how many times we can use it before he's out.

[leadwolf1]

7 minutes ago, Chopx said:

I said we because everyone is on the same page for this change. Even you

I agreed with some we still differ with some , I just finished talking to silent death 27 about this as well .

I believe what we should do , if everyone has discord is to get together actually discuss it off of here come up with the idea that satisfies everyone then post it and then all just quote it and agree and show DE we can came to an agreement on how we want it. then let them tell us no if they do not agree

[RikerWatts]

6 minutes ago, Buddhakingpen said:

1) you're projecting what you think his theme should be onto him and are mad that he isnt that. DE  wanted him to be a melee based cc frame with a water theme. Everything else is headcannon

Projecting what he is spoken as, visually looks like, clearly resembles, and conflicts with. People speak of him as a pirate. Pirates do not become the sea, they rule it.
He visually looks like AND resembles Davy Jones from the Pirates of the Carribean, again: a dread pirate. Spoilers: Davy Jones is not a water elemental.
All his abilities clash with that thematic of him being a pirate, once again. Not a water elemental

 

19 minutes ago, Buddhakingpen said:

2) You dont sit in undertow all game. Its a safe way to cast cc and get into melee range to utilize stealth melee damage. You tidal surge in, undertow on a group, throw down a tempest barrage or 2, jump out, slam attack. With the right melee weapon modded the right way, almost all DEAC will die from that

People will do it especially now that the damage ramps up infinitely with no additional cost. A frame that is pushed toward being melee without an exalted OR abilities that bolsters the usability of melee. It makes no sense that his passive should HAVE TO rely on it. Before you point out someone like Excalibur, his makes sense since he has exalted blade. Hydroid has nothing melee in his base kit. Also: what the hell is a DEAC?
 

 

27 minutes ago, Buddhakingpen said:

3) I'm with you on Tentacle swarm, sadly, the community got used to that being his primary ability when its the one you should be using the least. Keep in mind there are plenty of frames who ppl consider great who have moves that people just dont use often (trinity's 1, embers 1 and kinda 3, nyx's 2 novas 1, etc)

Tentacle swarm's viability is hindered by the sheer fact that people only use it as a bum nekros. It isn't that good on its own in terms of damage and offers nothing without it, it is a bandaid which makes it depressing on paper and ingame.
 

 

29 minutes ago, Buddhakingpen said:

4) You really dont have to lean hard on any stat. Its actually really easy to build him imo because he's doesnt need power strength at all, so just toss a generic loki or nyx build on him with your augment of choice and he does fine. I use both duration and range and I use all 4 abilities... So i have no clue what youre talking about.  If anything my only problem is that if i use more than 200% duration then it becomes hard to stop my tidal surge where i want to. Which i think is ok, because then i get to have more range by using a weaker narrow minded.

The "lean hard" mentality drives from the fact that negative range benefits was obscene in the old version of hydroid. Currently he benefits less than he used to, but it still helps his tentacle swarm be more concentrated. That concentrated mass makes enemies flailed around in it easier to hit.
 

 

48 minutes ago, Buddhakingpen said:

5)I'm down with minor tweaks. But imo he doesnt need a complete overhaul. People just need to get their head out of their asses and learn to utilize the tools their given (or just dont play the frame! Not every frame is for everybody, no matter how good they are). Also... hydroid is totally a melee frame. All of his moves are a set up to do ground finishers,  have stealth melee multipliers, or lock enemies into an unalert state. You dont need to be beat over the head with "this is a melee frame". You dont need an exalted weapon, to be a stealth frame or to be a supertank to be a melee frame

Yes, nobody is obligated to play any frame. You are not wrong.
I however play every frame I can to get variety, and Hydroid is the worst for me.
You can set up anyone for ground finishers with a ground slam as it is, the finisher is not a well meshed thing on hydroid whom with his undertow makes me believe they really want a trapper. Had they made it a cast trap that hydroid doesn't get removed from, his trapper dream would be realized. Yet now, we're bogged down with this Hydroid that relies on something that requires something outside of his kit to work.
Several frames suffer from minor issues that should either be innate or changed to make the ability cohesion work.


Mag's magnetize augment should have not been an augment, rather it should have been there already by recasting, casting crush while someone was magnetized, or pull to rip them out of the bubble.

Inaros' devour should do more damage to targets affected by his CC.

There are others I can't think of at the moment since I have hydroid on the mind.

[(PSN)TheHourMan]

1 hour ago, Chopx said:

Thats why we are trying to push for this

 

I would love that except for barrage being focused on the undertow enemies, but if the tentacles were spread out instead during undertow that would balance it out well.

[Chopx]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)TheHourMan said:

I would love that except for barrage being focused on the undertow enemies, but if the tentacles were spread out instead during undertow that would balance it out well.

My understanding is ppl want more dmg directed at undertow. So with the fact that you can leave undertow at anytime then you have that choice between barrage dealing dmg and barrage being a wide area CC. But I understand that it limits the ability in some situations.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Chopx

[FoxFX]

Is there any thoughts on this suggested form of Undertow?

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

34 minutes ago, RikerWatts said:

Projecting what he is spoken as, visually looks like, clearly resembles, and conflicts with. People speak of him as a pirate. Pirates do not become the sea, they rule it.
He visually looks like AND resembles Davy Jones from the Pirates of the Carribean, again: a dread pirate. Spoilers: Davy Jones is not a water elemental.
All his abilities clash with that thematic of him being a pirate, once again. Not a water elemental

Yet his move set is that of a sea monster. Look at Rhino, does he look like a Rhinoceros? Aside from a vague theme, Rhino is nowhere close to that African horned herbivore. 

[Chopx]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)TheHourMan said:

I would love that except for barrage being focused on the undertow enemies, but if the tentacles were spread out instead during undertow that would balance it out well.

 

19 minutes ago, Chopx said:

My understanding is ppl want more dmg directed at undertow. So with the fact that you can leave undertow at anytime then you have that choice between barrage dealing dmg and barrage being a wide area CC. But I understand that it limits the ability in some situations.

But then again. If the mobs in undertow are visible and able to take dmg from the rest of the team/weapons than you really dont need to have barrage's weak dmg to kill them. You dont need undertow to do dmg either. Someone pointed out a "wet" debuff which could work just as well to enemies affected by undertow.

[Takarie-Zan]

My Opinion of Hydroid's Abilities in order of importance: 

Hydroid's Three- I personally do not like undertow at all as an ability.  Personally, I would like for that ability to be removed and replaced with another ability. An ability that offers a benefit to his teamates, and to himself.  If not, I feel this NEEDS to be implemented.  The ability for teammates to kill enemies in undertow so people can not troll in defense.  I had spent ten minutes waiting for a Hydroid player to come back, and undo undertow.  It is very frustrating, and I would like this to never happen again. 

Hydroid's Four- The Kraken that spawns at the center should have a set number of tentacles that are spawned at it's location.  Then random tentacles should spawn surrounding the Kraken.  This would allow Tentacle Swarm to be aimed.  Instead of flailing while holding an enemy, they lift an enemy into the air, and they do a strangle animation in a fixed position(or very small area).  In this way, it is easier for people to shoot, and you get to see a cool animation of a grineer unit being crushed to death by a giant tentacle. It would also be nice for it to have increased damage against enemies. 

Hydroid's two and one(with his augment).  They may need some more Quality of Life improvements.  Like his one being able to actively seek enemies.  

I think there are three main problems with Hydroid that myself and many others have. The first problem is his third and fourth ability.  His two does not offer much besides movement and a very short ranged cc. Nothing horrible, but nothing spectacular.  The second problem is Hydroid is in a position now where he has no real place because there is a frame that does what he can, but better.  This is not like Oberon who is a jack of all trades because Oberon has unique things about him.  Like the ability to increase armor, a free revive for a teamate, and incredible health regen.  This is where Hydroid's biggest problem comes into play.  Hydroid does not offer much to a team.  The two things he can do is strip armor, and farm.  Yet Nekros farms better, and plenty of frames can strip armor.  Ash and Oberon for an example.  Hydroid's one is the best ability for a team comp because it strips armor, but besides that there really is nothing he adds. I hope that above all else you make Hydrod more fun to use in a team in future updates. 

Thanks. I feel this is an okay start. Keep working hard. 

 

 

[FoxFX]

3 hours ago, Syndrella said:

With this power this can be too. 

 

 

Perhaps, but we should try to focus on how to eliminate the slow-pace Undertow creates and how to first fix it up.

[(PSN)Atlas-The-Rock]

Hydroid rework analysis.

1.The dmg potential and duration charging effect gives him a very nice CC/DMG lost spam but perhaps instead of just altering its dmg and duration it could alter its size as well? Going from a very small tight group for knock down for a long period on a single high value target or charge to get massive area control on a large group.

2. Tidal wave feels great a nice speedy CC/GTFO to control the flow of enemies.

3. Undertow in its application is incredibly satisfying except a few small problems. The pull cost is the stamina bar ressurected. It really does nothing to balance him because most enemies will run into the pool eventually or will all be scooped up with one well placed tidal surge The biggest problem with hydroid now is his insane power cost. Everything from moving a milimeter a minute to picking your nose costs an increasingly heavy toll on his power pool. The solution is yank out his old passive. Because with his new rework the main goal is to stay underwater for as long as possible noone is going to unpuddle for a chance at one tentacle when they couls stay underwater safe and summon the whole kraken. Make his passive something about energy return like enemies killed by drowning give him X amount of mana. The second that energy issue is taken care of everyone will see the lord of the deep as a viable and helpfull CC option.

4. The tentacles look fantastic now and feel powerful. My only criticism is when they are cast in undertow they should move with you.

In conclussion hydroid with the rework is like a nice car with no gas. Everything may look and work great but wont be going anywhere without the fuel.

Keep up the great work DE i hope you can make the oberon rework lightning strike again!

[FoxFX]

2 minutes ago, Chopx said:

 

But then again. If the mobs in undertow are visible and able to take dmg from the rest of the team/weapons than you really dont need to have barrage's weak dmg to kill them. You dont need undertow to do dmg either. Someone pointed out a "wet" debuff which could work just as well to enemies affected by undertow.

 

What are your thoughts on just having Undertow put enemies knee deep in the water effectively slowing them down within Undertow's puddle? Hydroid can maneuver within the puddle of Undertow and melee attacks Hydroid does inside the puddle unleashes himself in the form of a "water shark construct" dealing moderate damage in his position as an AOE. That could potentially remove Undertow's slow pacing all together and would still maintain Hydroid's stealth with Undertow.

[Chopx]

3 minutes ago, FoxFX said:

 

What are your thoughts on just having Undertow put enemies knee deep in the water effectively slowing them down within Undertow's puddle? Hydroid can maneuver within the puddle of Undertow and melee attacks Hydroid does inside the puddle unleashes himself in the form of a "water shark construct" dealing moderate damage in his position as an AOE. That could potentially remove Undertow's slow pacing all together and would still maintain Hydroid's stealth with Undertow.

I think it's cool but I think hydroid would die alot.

[FoxFX]

1 minute ago, Chopx said:

I think it's cool but I think hydroid would die alot.

But wouldn't he still be invulnerable as long as he remains in Undertow?

[Chopx]

Just now, FoxFX said:

But wouldn't he still be invulnerable as long as he remains in Undertow?

Then that makes it too op