[Update 21.4.0] Hydroid Revisited Feedback

[FoxFX]

Just now, Chopx said:

Then that makes it too op

There can be limits to it, having each melee "Water Shark attack" cost extra energy much like how it costs energy to use Tentacle to pull enemies into Undertow.

[Chopx]

Just now, FoxFX said:

There can be limits to it, having each melee "Water Shark attack" cost extra energy much like how it costs energy to use Tentacle to pull enemies into Undertow.

then that goes back to hydroid being too energy dependent. You have to find the balance. If exalted blades did more dmg but cost more energy would it be better?

[FoxFX]

1 minute ago, Chopx said:

then that goes back to hydroid being too energy dependent. You have to find the balance. If exalted blades did more dmg but cost more energy would it be better?

Wouldn't that depend on how [DE] will design the damage it does and the cost of that energy? I am just thinking of this variant of Undertow where we remove the "drowning" aspect and replace it as a puddle that practically slows down enemies inside of it.

I guess I should explain what I am coming from with this new Undertow HERE

The idea presented here is to show the mastery of Hydroid turning his body into water by also turning his body into water constructs of water creatures.

 

[Chopx]

4 minutes ago, FoxFX said:

Wouldn't that depend on how [DE] will design the damage it does and the cost of that energy? I am just thinking of this variant of Undertow where we remove the "drowning" aspect and replace it as a puddle that practically slows down enemies inside of it.

I guess I should explain what I am coming from with this new Undertow HERE

The idea presented here is to show the mastery of Hydroid turning his body into water by also turning his body into water constructs of water creatures.

 

Yea I get it but its op af. He uses 1 ability that CC's, makes him invulnerable, and does dmg at the same time?

[RikerWatts]

22 hours ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

Yet his move set is that of a sea monster. Look at Rhino, does he look like a Rhinoceros? Aside from a vague theme, Rhino is nowhere close to that African horned herbivore. 

Quote

 

Hydroid

noun
noun: hydroid; plural noun: hydroids

    1.
    a coelenterate of an order that includes the hydras. They are distinguished by the dominance of the polyp phase.

adjective
adjective: hydroid

    1.
    relating to coelenterates of the hydroid group.

 

His appearance is reminiscent of DAVY JONES from Pirates of the Carribean and heavily so on his appearance. Again: a pirate. Davy Jones is not a water elemental, Davy Jones commanded the Kraken. Hydroid looks reminiscent of him and is almost an homage in appearance.
Rhino is named such from his charge and burliness, football players were considered "strong as rhinos" on the field, and ironically, you're wrong. His helmet is reminiscent of infant rhinos before their horns come to adulthood. Numerous other frames fit with their thematic, including rhino.

 

 

[FoxFX]

1 minute ago, Chopx said:

Yea I get it but its op af. He uses 1 ability that CC's, makes him invulnerable, and does dmg at the same time?

 

Is this not what Undertow already does though?

I'm not suggesting the "drowning DPS" effect and I am not suggesting enemies to disappear in the puddle slowing down the gameplay.

[h4r1m40]

First of all, this thread is not meant to be a smear job on the „Hydroid-rework“. If you are reading this and you have the urge to start trash-talking and insulting DE-employees or the company itself for the rework please leave because it is not helping anyone, most certainly not Hydroid himself because I can understand that people do not want to read insulting comments in thread that aims to be constructive criticism.

 

There are plenty of other threads which point out there are still some damage-scaling issues and the introduction of charged “tentacle-swarm”, to get to get the range pre-reworke power range, were kind of a nerf on his 4^th ability “tentacle-swarm”. So I am not the only one seeing this.

Yes, Hydroid is more fun to play but this can hardly be called a “rework” or as it had been called “revisit”. He still needs attention and due to the fact that he is not popular, I fear that he will remain as he is. I hope that Hydroid gets the same treatment as Oberon, hence this thread.

 

Should DE read this and consider scaling his damage to make him more viable late-game, by all means please do not overscale him because I believe many Hydroid-mains like me want him to be a CC-warframe and not a DPS-warframe.

 

I think these tiny changes would make Hydroid definitely more useful:

 

1. change his augment “Corroding barrage” from dealing corrosive procs into viral-procs which viral damage scales with his power strength. People are mostly running Corrosive Projection in late-game builds anyway. This makes “corroding barrage” obsolete and the ability without the augment is completely useless against armored high level enemies from the get go. It would be nice to do at least some mediocore damage even for an CC-ability. He already has a 4^th ability that is a defacto CC ability due to its pitifull damage output.

    

2. Increase the damage scaling of his 4^th ability and try to look into reverting its range-nerf. If a Hydroid wants to cast a “Pilfering-swarm” on the same range as pre-rework, he cannot do it in puddle because then, at least the way I have tested it in-game is that the tentacles are limited in the puddle's vicinity.
   On top of that standing still for a charged 4^th ability for about 4 seconds, I am not sure on the exact time because I never counted the seconds during charging, while being under enemy fire is suicide. I do not believe that people are willing to go for “Natural Talent” for an ability that is lacklusting.
   And to use several 1^st abilities to suppress enemy fire, just to cast a charged 4^th ability, is simply energy-consumption wise not reasonable.

   This could be fixed easily by letting his charged 4^th ability being freely casted like his 1^st ability while being in undertow.

    

3. His augment “curative undertow” should either be an integral part of undertow itself or make my proposal at point 1 an integral part of his ability. The only instances where I as Hydroid-main use undertow is during spy-mission to stealth-kill patrols without raising the alarm. One of augments should be integral because they are not usable late-game.

I do welcome the changes that I would summarize as “visual-changes” but the problems regarding Hydroid have not been dealt with.

 

More importantly!

Why is it no longer possible to reload weapons while being submerged in “undertow”?

Is this a bug, I just tried it several times in-game but Hydroid no longer reloads while in “undertow”?

 

Hydroid relies so much on firearms as his damage, as he should as a CC-warframe but only to a bearable degree. Hydroid is a mediocore CC-warframe that desperately needs damage mods in his weapons to inflict at least some damage late-game. Switching out damage mods for a reload mod because he can no longer reload in safety anymore is just too much.

No matter what happens, I will keep on playing Hydroid because I really like him and according to my taste, playing him is so much fun over other frames.

 

I hope for the best, that game-playing changes to this warframe will be made instead of mostly pure visual-changes,but I fear for the worst that Hydroid will remain as he is because he has so few die-hard fans like me.

Edited August 14, 2017 by h4r1m40

[Chopx]

1 minute ago, FoxFX said:

 

Is this not what Undertow already does though?

I'm not suggesting the "drowning DPS" effect and I am not suggesting enemies to disappear in the puddle slowing down the gameplay.

But that's what makes it op. Right now enemies take a long time to die and its boring. You want it to be slightly less boring but way more powerful. If the "shark attack" doesnt do enough dmg to kill enemies then whats the point. All you're doing in going into a puddle and slowing mobs down so the rest of team kills them. Which again is really boring gameplay.

[Trentiel]

7 hours ago, Marthrym said:

Also the bubble would be a lot like Nyx's Assimilate in some regards, I'm not sure I like that.

In my conception, the bubble would be purely visual representation of the water-trap size. You would still be able to fire through it, not another shield.

7 hours ago, Marthrym said:

I'd rework the puddle and make it an actual "sea" of sort, much larger than what we have had until now (basically not a kiddie pool). Only this time, it's the players who would choose to trap enemies inside when they walk on the surface, using the mechanics introduced with this patch. With the possibility to choose to either engulf all enemies walking on the surface by keeping the key pressed for a second, or to clic on a specific enemy to drag only them below the surface, where Hydroid would roam freely like an underwater predator, able to kill the floating enemies with melee attacks. Allies could of course choose to dive into the puddle to hide, kill the drowning enemies the same way Hydroid would, or to instead shoot the surface from above to add to its DoT. Hydroid and allies could choose to resurface anywhere on the "sea" he created, allowing them to get past enemies unnoticed if they so desire.

There's actually nothing about this idea that I don't love! If we were to give the old range back, but made the puddle form... more like a bounding box. So Hydroid could move around quickly, without moving the puddles position until he pressed against the outside edge. +remove the increased energy cost on moving the puddle slowly. There's already a huge cost on being in puddle form, the penalty to not using Tidal Surge to move is that its so dang slow.

Then give him a right and left click function. Left click to drag single enemies in, right click to drag everything on the surface in.

Not sure about other allies jumping into the puddle. Technically, HE is the puddle. This would feel... weird. But they should be able to fire into the puddle at silhouettes of enemies inside.

Letting Hydroid use Melee attacks to polish off enemies faster would be nice. It's really no different than Loki or Ivara being able to melee freely while invisible.

[Soshoryu]

Some things i would like to see.

The current changes to Hydriod's 1 and 4 been able to be charged/powered up. This needs something similar to harrow that you can see more clearly or just as your holding it the key the ability icons change to a % number increasing to the max dmg % increase bonus/max no. of tentacles. Currently the AOE on ground starts small and gets larger ( not to mention its quiet hard to see for some reason, unless in dark maps ). Other then that the changes seem fine ( would love the corrosive to be built in to 1 but doubt it would happen or an mod that gives % chance to spawn a tentacle).

The tidal wave 2 needs to be cancel-able by hitting 2 again, using under tow at end of tidal wave is nice but needs the option to return to warframe during tidal. It would be great that if while you are in Under Tow and use Tidal wave it could capture all enemies into the pool once you stop at your destination. If people are worried about the drain it could be an ability mod.

The changes to under tow are nice however i think a few more things need to be done. The movement and ability to drag enemies in is great. But they still dont seem to come towards you while under tow is active. A change that i think would be nice is when using under tow Hydriod becomes transparent like the water tentacle with the pool beneath him, also when using the left click  to drag enemies in his arm would make the motion the the tentacle fires. With the ability to draw fire enemies would come towards him, helping makes his other abilities feel more connected and could make him a sudo tank. Ability mod could increase number of enemies able to be pulled in at once perhaps. Also when you jump out of under tow you should be able to bullet jump up like a majestic dolphin xD. But for some reason you do a small hop.

Release the pervert i think is fine a little damage scaling would be nice, i would like that when you use under tow (using my idea) then released the Kraken. That the Kraken would rise up from underneath you so that it looks like you are standing on top of him and he would last the duration while you had undertow active. Leaving under tow, the Kraken would hide and the tentacles continue their duration. More a nice visual change then anything but would look like your standing on helm of a ship :D.

[FoxFX]

2 minutes ago, Chopx said:

But that's what makes it op. Right now enemies take a long time to die and its boring. You want it to be slightly less boring but way more powerful. If the "shark attack" doesnt do enough dmg to kill enemies then whats the point. All you're doing in going into a puddle and slowing mobs down so the rest of team kills them. Which again is really boring gameplay.

 

The suggestion I made with this Undertow "Water Shark" can still do enough damage if [DE] design it so.

Since I am suggesting these "Water Shark" attacks to be activated through the melee command, it could work with Melee Mods.

Since Undertow used Finisher Damage, the damage could also be low to moderate Finisher Damage. Ash's Bladestorm works the same way though it also does 100% bleed; and I'm not suggesting adding bleed into this Water Shark Undertow.

[FoxFX]

7 minutes ago, Trentiel said:

In my conception, the bubble would be purely visual representation of the water-trap size. You would still be able to fire through it, not another shield.

There's actually nothing about this idea that I don't love! If we were to give the old range back, but made the puddle form... more like a bounding box. So Hydroid could move around quickly, without moving the puddles position until he pressed against the outside edge. +remove the increased energy cost on moving the puddle slowly. There's already a huge cost on being in puddle form, the penalty to not using Tidal Surge to move is that its so dang slow.

Then give him a right and left click function. Left click to drag single enemies in, right click to drag everything on the surface in.

Not sure about other allies jumping into the puddle. Technically, HE is the puddle. This would feel... weird. But they should be able to fire into the puddle at silhouettes of enemies inside.

Letting Hydroid use Melee attacks to polish off enemies faster would be nice. It's really no different than Loki or Ivara being able to melee freely while invisible.

 

I made a backup variant of Undertow which I would like for you to see HERE

[h4r1m40]

I apologize that I opened a separate thread on my take on Hydroid's changes. My review is a bit long so I thought it would be better to make a separate one, so that I do not spam this thread to hell.

 

I think, I even found a bug regarding undertow. I can no longer reload weapons while submerged.

---

[h4r1m40]

3 hours ago, Chopx said:

I dont run any of those frames. You're comparing 2 of best frames in the game to Hydroid which even if they did a proper rework probably wouldnt be as good. [DE] doesnt have time to do that rework. Were stuck finding an easy fix to make Hydroid viable and fun to play.

I hate advertising the thread I opened but I think some impulses I made there are very easy to implement and it would improve him without the need for an overhaul.

[leadwolf1]

SO Chopx and FoxFX I just got with hawkfang022 over discord and we have used ideas from both of you as well as trying to answer the rest of the 45 pages. I did invite anyone to discord , but I believe you may not have been on Foxfx and chorx declined to be part of the discussion. SO as soon as it is fully written up and changes are mad , the session was recorded so we do not forget things then it will be posted I believe by hawkfang022. I think this will work for all involved. It is not all of 1 or the other idea, we even took our time and revisited posts to make sure we were trying to get it right, and your ideas are partially in it as well. I hope when it is done and comes out you 2 will back it. thanks

Edited August 14, 2017 by leadwolf1
to add more text for explanation

[leadwolf1]

1 hour ago, h4r1m40 said:

I hate advertising the thread I opened but I think some impulses I made there are very easy to implement and it would improve him without the need for an overhaul.

I disagree I think if DE can MAKE the plains of elderon if I spelled it correctly to show at tennocon then they can certainly rework hydroid.

[leadwolf1]

4 hours ago, leadwolf1 said:

 

 

Edited August 14, 2017 by leadwolf1
wrong post

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

1 hour ago, RikerWatts said:

Because you feel he's just fine with a specific niche play style?

How is tons of CC from all his abilities niche? It should be like the Oberon revisit, keeping the abilities pretty much the same but with better stats and maybe a slight tweak to one or two abilities like Tentacle Swarm.

Also, pirates simply aren't interesting enough to dedicate 4 abilities to, much less an entire frame. So DE simply made him look like a pirate instead of a sea monster cause that'd look cool.

[FoxFX]

16 minutes ago, leadwolf1 said:

SO Chopx and FoxFX I lust got with hawkfang022 over discord and we have used ideas from both of you as well as trying to answer the rest of the 45 pages. I did invite anyone to discord , but I believe you may not have been on Foxfx and chorx declined to be part of the discussion. SO as soon as it is fully written up and changes are mad , the session was recorded so we do not forget things then it will be posted I believe by hawkfang022. I think this will work for all involved. It is not all of 1 or the other idea, we even took our time and revisited posts to make sure we were trying to get it right, and your ideas are partially in it as well. I hope when it is done and comes out you 2 will back it. thanks

 

I would like to see what had came up as soon as it arrives. In the meantime, I am brainstorming a way for Tentacle Swarm to maintain its function, but to make it less "trolly" and mobile-friendly.

Edited August 14, 2017 by FoxFX

[FoxFX]

I am also working on a suggestion for Tentacle Swarm to be less unreliable for teamplay but will still maintain the function it has now. This variant will work as a MUCH friendlier team ability and solo ability.

[leadwolf1]

14 minutes ago, FoxFX said:

 

I would like to see what had came up as soon as it arrives. In the meantime, I am brainstorming a way for Tentacle Swarm to maintain its function, but to make it less "trolly" and mobile-friendly.

we came up with that, I can tell you a little but it will be final later basically hydroid still has its 10 tentacles they still grab enemies, but with enemy grabbed it stops and constricts then the damage will stack since it is his 4th ability and now allies will be able to shoot them , it stacks on how many is grabbed during the duration so the next grabs initial base is even higher and it starts to kill faster, it also scales with the enemy level so the very initial grab will always be a percent of the enemies level. this way it works for higher levels, and for mobility the kraken appears the same way it always does but if hydroid moves and then aims on himself and hit the same ability button the kraken moves toward hydroids location still grabbing enemies and constricting them for the duration of the ability or until they are killed. there is also something in there about the kraken eating the dead giving hydroid a buff of some kind. I am unable to be exact right now it is being drafted and was recorded by hawkfang022

Edited August 14, 2017 by leadwolf1

[RikerWatts]

9 minutes ago, 1tsyB1tsyN1nj4 said:

How is tons of CC from all his abilities niche? It should be like the Oberon revisit, keeping the abilities pretty much the same but with better stats and maybe a slight tweak to one or two abilities like Tentacle Swarm.

Also, pirates simply aren't interesting enough to dedicate 4 abilities to, much less an entire frame. So DE simply made him look like a pirate instead of a sea monster cause that'd look cool.

Niche playstyle. His abilities are wonky and do not mesh. The playstyle you listed is niche not the abilities, those are very poorly done and do not thematically fit with a dread pirate. Do I make this clear?

Also "Pirates aren't intersting enough to dedicate four abilities to."?
Gangplank from League of Legends.
Four abilities. Is a pirate. are not interesting enough? you could come up with a couple dozen ways to make a pirate work in a game like this.
Tempest barrage? Pirate like.
Tidal surge? Oceanish
Undertow? Name is oceanish but the functionality is awful in warframe.
Tentacle swarm? Cooperates with none of the abilities and no part of your playstyle.

[Metal_Izanagi]

If you look at the base of the tentacles in the second screenshot, you'll see the energy color, and your abilities have a slight tint of your chosen energy color to them. Hydroid's abilities are more water than pure energy now, so you're not going to see bright pink tentacles ever again.

[(XBOX)thelightbeckons]

Id like to take a moment and say what probably has already been said with "why was hydroids 3rd and 4th ability ranges nerfed from 18 meter puddle to 4 and 20 meter tennicles to 5? I don't understand what the thought process of this was. hydroid needs a sweet buff. the quality of life changes i appreciate greatly. I think that his original ability ranges should be restored because of the simple fact "Plains of Eidiolon." this new open world coming means most of the high range ability builds i have for warframes will be seeing some serious use. I went in to the arsenal and put max range on hydroid and it added nearly nothing to his power ranges. How can a hydroid Range build be effective for the plains of eidolon when he has virtually no power range at base and with mods?

[PsiWarp]

27 minutes ago, (Xbox One)thelightbeckons said:

Id like to take a moment and say what probably has already been said with "why was hydroids 3rd and 4th ability ranges nerfed from 18 meter puddle to 4 and 20 meter tennicles to 5? I don't understand what the thought process of this was. hydroid needs a sweet buff. the quality of life changes i appreciate greatly. I think that his original ability ranges should be restored because of the simple fact "Plains of Eidiolon." this new open world coming means most of the high range ability builds i have for warframes will be seeing some serious use. I went in to the arsenal and put max range on hydroid and it added nearly nothing to his power ranges. How can a hydroid Range build be effective for the plains of eidolon when he has virtually no power range at base and with mods?

My guess is:

• Undertow range is made smaller to cluster up Tentacle Swarm when cast from the pool.
  • The manual pull makes the ability more interactive but also more costly.
• Tentacle Swarm, rather than opt for increasing tentacle model size and their reach with mods, they made the spawn area smaller to promote positive Ability Range builds while ensuring there are less big gaps between tentacles (so they are much more likely to scoop up enemies, even if other tentacles missed them).
  • Charged cast spawning 20 tentacles in a moderately sized spawn area follows the same design as above.

As for Plains of Eidolon, we'll just have to see if the cast range for Tempest Barrage and Tentacle Swarm are truly unrestricted/infinite.