Tennogen Workshop Changes

[-Pure]

I was debating whether to write this in the Steam Workshop forum but decided that the post would get more recognition and spark a bigger discussion here so hi.

I think we can all agree that the Steam Workshop has given us a fair few amazing skins however it could be greatly improved with a few changes in my opinion. 

1. Allow changes for Warframe models and meshes

It has likely been proposed and denied in the past however it is exactly the kind of change we need for a few reasons. Firstly and most importantly the creativity and skill is already there. We all know people are dying to express their versions of Warframes and i don't see why this couldn't be allowed. I can already foresee questions like:

  - Won't they just look silly? Well there are already specific guidelines for how alternate helmets are supposed to keep with a general theme and ridiculous ideas simply wouldn't be accepted into the game and the same rule can be applied here. There are enough curators (the public) which will vote up well-made creations using the "would you like to see this officially supported in Warframe" button so DE don't have to mindlessly scroll through hours of content.

  - Doesn't that defeat the point of Deluxe skins? Well, yes, in a way it does, however Deluxe skins could be changed a little too in another point i will address below. Also don't forget that Deluxe skins can be bought with platinum which allows users to still earn them for free, unlike Tennogen skins.

  - How would it even work? Take a look at Dota 2, the biggest game on Steam which also happens to fully use the Workshop to its full capabilities. Skins are split into 'Sets' which consist of individual items for a heroes different body parts and each item can have its model, meshes and textures edited. For Warframe this would translate to the Syandana, Helm, Body and possibly Auxiliary. 

2. Use the Steam Market to its full potential

 As i said, DotA 2 and Counter-Strike GO both have a booming ecosystem on the platform. Valve manages to sustain a free to play game on cosmetics alone using this very system and Warframe is already in the top 10 for player count on Steam so the community is ready.

  - But DotA and CS:GO are Valve games of course they would work! Look at Player Unknowns Battle Grounds which has recently made a debut on the market with keys, crates and skin items. Saying it is popular would be an understatement. The population is there, the ecosystem is there, the platform is there.

- What about the creators share? That is something DE would have to work out with Valve. While it is true that DE would have to share money between three parties: themselves, Valve, and the artist(s), i am more than positive that a fair deal exists there and the popularity of the platform would almost undoubtedly make up for (or even increase) the revenue due to the split share in extra sales!

3. Improving Deluxe Skins

I mentioned in an earlier point that this might decrease the value of deluxe skins however these could simply just be upgraded. How you ask? With effects and unique, maybe more 'out-there' designs. A great example would be the Nova Deluxe skin, which has already somewhat implemented this. When you cast an ability with the deluxe body skin you create an effect, not available to Tennogen skins. But why stop there. Again i will mention DotA 2 as they have a special tier of items called 'Arcanas' which are made by qualified in-house artists on a per-hero basis with unique effects (ability and ambient), sounds, ability icons, animations and more and are sold in-game for a set price and are released infrequently as to make them special. Almost identically to Deluxe skins. 

  - How would this translate to Warframe? Think of a frame, perhaps Hydroid as an example: His body skin has a new design, with a model and texture makeover as with current Deluxe Skins to make him look more like a Pirate lets say (while keeping true to the Warframe aesthetic) however parts of his cape are made of free-flowing water which drips while he walks and when he casts an ability the water explodes outwards and then reforms shortly after. No game play changes, just aesthetic to give it a special premium feel. Coupled with a cutlass skin for one-handed swords to fit the pirate theme as is already a thing with normal Deluxe Skins.

  - Wouldn't this just be more work? Yes, however i think a pricing adjustment would be fair. As it stands the Deluxe Skin bundles are rather cheaply priced in my opinion and as stated can be earned in game without paying anything so it would be okay to raise the price slightly to accommodate the extra work. Keep in mind i am a player with 3000 hours in the game with more than enough platinum to last to my viewpoint may be biased so i would be interested to hear your thoughts on this. 

Please leave a comment with any advice, criticisms, feedback or otherwise as i would love to know the reasons for not implementing some or all of these ideas. Thanks

- Pure

[artemisfortune]

A. The CS:GO Economy is what killed the game. No longer is the game balanced and worked on, instead new skins and merch are released all the time. Just because people make money doesn't mean it's a good idea in general and especially for the game.

B. Allowing people to edit the Warframe models takes away from deluxe skins. Deluxe skins can't be "improved" because artistic ability is not a quantifiable idea. The deluxe skins can't just be better than something someone else makes.

C. You used Dota 2 and CS:GO as your references, when both of those games operate on their market. You think they'd be as popular if the market didn't allow you to make money just from playing? CS:GO's quality of gameplay has only gone down since skins became a thing. I don't play Dota 2 because of how god awful it's community it is, but I think you'd see a lot of parallels if Warframe decided to do this too. Plus DE would have to filter through more tennogen stuff, and then they'd have to determine of the consoles get them or not, which means more contract rewriting with Valve.

All in all, this isn't a good idea.

[aligatorno]

3 minutes ago, -Pure said:

1. Allow changes for Warframe models and meshes

I

2. Use the Steam Market to its full potential


- What about the creators share? That is something DE would have to work out with Valve. While it is true that DE would have to share money between three parties: themselves, Valve, and the artist(s), i am more than positive that a fair deal exists there and the popularity of the platform would almost undoubtedly make up for (or even increase) the revenue due to the split share in extra sales!
 

1. That will most likely never happened for a few reasons. First, DE would have to adjust the rig to each model selected. We already have to wait 1 month until they release skins after selecting them, if they had to check if every model works with the rig and every animation, that will take much, much longer since the new model doesn't have the same weights, bending points and all the things that are needed for the frames to move like they should. Secondly, DE want to keep the warframe's persona and theme intact, so even if people would make a crazy model, it would be for naught if it's not close enough to the frame's theme. 

2. The revenue is already shared between DE, Valve and the artists. 

[-Pure]

9 minutes ago, JSharpie said:

A. The CS:GO Economy is what killed the game. No longer is the game balanced and worked on, instead new skins and merch are released all the time. Just because people make money doesn't mean it's a good idea in general and especially for the game.

B. Allowing people to edit the Warframe models takes away from deluxe skins. Deluxe skins can't be "improved" because artistic ability is not a quantifiable idea. The deluxe skins can't just be better than something someone else makes.

C. You used Dota 2 and CS:GO as your references, when both of those games operate on their market. You think they'd be as popular if the market didn't allow you to make money just from playing? CS:GO's quality of gameplay has only gone down since skins became a thing. I don't play Dota 2 because of how god awful it's community it is, but I think you'd see a lot of parallels if Warframe decided to do this too. Plus DE would have to filter through more tennogen stuff, and then they'd have to determine of the consoles get them or not, which means more contract rewriting with Valve.

All in all, this isn't a good idea.

A. In your opinion, sure, i don't play CS:GO (i don't personally like it) i just used the market as an example but i don't see why that would automatically take away from the game. The artists are not the same people working on gun balancing or what have you, in fact iirc the artists have too much free time on their hands (it's been said before) which is why we get more graphic overhauls than balancing changes. 

B. Did you read the section on deluxe skins? Take a look at every game ever with a cosmetic shop, there are ALWAYS skins worth more or less, usually this has to do with effects and such, look at Dota2, Leauge of Legends, Overwatch or the literal thousands of other games i could use as examples. Yes, they are not quantifiable, but there are sure as hell better looking skins in a majority of peoples opinions, which is why this difference in pricing exists. If you like a tennogen skin for its design of course, why wouldn't use it, but you are straight up wrong if you think skins cant be improved or made better than others.

C. You can make money from Warframe too, i haven't done it personally (never needed to) but its easily possible by earning a ton of plat and trading it for items on steam and i know people who have done this with success. Anyhow this isn't my point, yes those games would still be extremely popular, guess what they were popular in their previous versions (CS:GO classic / Dota 1 / Starcraft 2) and League of Legends has skins but no market and is arguably an even more popular game than Dota 2 (based on player count) so i'm not sure where you are going with that. Seems like you are basing your argument on negative experiences with those games. Also, why would it require any more involvement with the workshop than they already do, the vote up feature is there for a reason, they just pick the best ones as they do now. Yes the contract rewriting might take a bit of effort (i didn't say it needed to be implemented right now or i'll cry) but they would undoubtedly gain money using this system.

Honestly it feels like you skipped over half my points. sigh

[Rekkou]

I don't see what you mean by using steam market to its full potential. Being able to buy what you want directly without the need to gamble or anything else in between is already the best for all sides.

Crate is anti-consumer as it forces players to gamble to get the skins they want. And based on the article bellows, the system employed by Valve is actually ripping off creators.

https://compete.kotaku.com/dota-2-skin-creators-say-valve-is-ripping-them-off-1793889486

[-Pure]

4 hours ago, Rekkou said:

I don't see what you mean by using steam market to its full potential. Being able to buy what you want directly without the need to gamble or anything else in between is already the best for all sides.

Crate is anti-consumer as it forces players to gamble to get the skins they want. And based on the article bellows, the system employed by Valve is actually ripping off creators.

https://compete.kotaku.com/dota-2-skin-creators-say-valve-is-ripping-them-off-1793889486

1. I didn't say anything about crates coming to Warframe, it doesn't suit the game and wouldn't work in the first place, i used it as an example of a game unrelated to Valve making a successful debut on the Steam Market, please read properly.

2. The creators are earning a good amount, the article states that some artists could no longer make a comfortable living wage, as in, solely live off creating items for the game. As with any creative media, you don't expect a job out of it, YouTube is an example of a hobby making you enough to live on but it is never guaranteed. Trust me i know and have friends who create items for the game who live off it due to the massive amount of sales generated from their own sets and/or items.

3. Read the full article, as it states at the bottom a few creators moved to CS:GO, not away from the Market Place AT ALL, and to another valve game. They claimed the problem was the ever increasing special items in DotA which (as i have over 4000 hours in) i know about and can sympathise and understand where they are coming from, however yet again, there is nothing like this in Warframe and so would not be an issue.

Yes again another person who clearly didn't fully read either my post or the own article they linked - the whole point was reaching a far bigger audience and ecosystem to help drive sales for my main point -> Warframe Body Skin Models which is the one thing i wanted out of this. Not sure why everyone is trying to turn something like this into a negative.

Edited August 28, 2017 by -Pure

[Rekkou]

Just now, -Pure said:

-

CSGO? the game with serious skin gambling controversy issue? And what is exactly you're suggesting then? because at the moment Warframe's steam market already free from keys, crate, battlepass, etc. If you don't want those to be in warframe then why making suggestion by using CSGO, DOTA, and PUBG as example?

And yet another person who believes his points are so compelling that every people would agree to them just by reading their post. It's not, I've read it and that's why i disagree, you aren't going to make me agree by accusing me not reading your post.

If you are planning to convince people you have a good point, you're not doing a very good job.

[-Pure]

On 28/08/2017 at 10:08 AM, Rekkou said:

CSGO? the game with serious skin gambling controversy issue? And what is exactly you're suggesting then? because at the moment Warframe's steam market already free from keys, crate, battlepass, etc. If you don't want those to be in warframe then why making suggestion by using CSGO, DOTA, and PUBG as example?

And yet another person who believes his points are so compelling that every people would agree to them just by reading their post. It's not, I've read it and that's why i disagree, you aren't going to make me agree by accusing me not reading your post.

If you are planning to convince people you have a good point, you're not doing a very good job.

I used them as examples because they all make A LOT of money using this platform with already millions of people there. PUBG is a non-valve game which did this to great success. You know it was just one of my points right? and far from my main one. You clearly didn't even read the article you posted in the first place because it talks about Dota 2 creators moving to CS:GO. If you weren't going to make a serious post then why bother posting at all? 

Skin gambling controversy? Are you talking about the 9 year olds that got their mothers credit cards and spent money on shady websites? Because there are legitimate websites for crate opening on CS:GO and DotA which not only have fair and set drop chances (you can even see them yourself) but they even allow easy ways to trade up bad skins for better ones at a reasonable cost. If you get addicted to opening cases the problem lies with you, not the game.

That said, that was again, not my intention. Warframe does not fit a key and crate system and the easy way to buy skins now is fine, but can be implemented on the steam market for a bigger audience and more sales aka more money. (If you still weren't clear, the point of this thread is that creators should be allowed to changed meshes and models of warframe bodies for skins.)

[phoenix1992]

The only way to introduce CS:GO skin system in WF is to ditch the platinum standard, which in my opinion will flat out kill Warframe, due to multiple reasons.

Considering Tennogen skins in general, it pisses me off that they are tied to Steam itself, instead of being introduced in the Warframe Shop.

PS: There are "steam skins" for Warframe - the Rubedo collection, if there was a point to expand on them... I would actually back it up. 

[Tsukinoki]

37 minutes ago, -Pure said:

the point of this thread is that creators should be allowed to changed meshes and models of warframe bodies for skins.

You're point basically boils down to:
Lets massively increase the work DE has to do to approve skins for next to zero actual gain except for even more delay between a skin being accepted and added to the game!

DE already has to spend a while to double check a skin in game and do some touch-up work and such.  Takes around a month or so.
if you add in full mesh/model changes then that time would go up by quite a lot because now they have to test every single animation and stance with that new model to make sure that it doesn't break with horribly janky animation.  Then they would need to check against all of the Syandannas and armor pieces to make sure that they all work on the new model and its new rigging and geometry.

There's a reason that DE only allows model changes for the helmet: The helmet doesn't move much and isn't impacted by animations or cosmetics nearly as much.

Basically your suggestion involves way too much work for DE.  Unless you want to wait more like 3 months in between a skin being selected and put into the game vs 1 like it is currently.

On 8/27/2017 at 9:27 PM, -Pure said:

2. Use the Steam Market to its full potential

Could you explain what you mean by this?
Your statement under it doesn't really say anything....
DE already pays Steam and the Creators for the tennogen skins that are bought by players...so what do you mean you want DE to use the steam market to its full potential?

[Rekkou]

1 hour ago, -Pure said:

 

If i have problem with only 1 of your points then i have the right to dispute that alone. Your other points doesn't at all miraculously justify the problem with your point. And aligatorno have dispute your other points, i don't see you arguing with him/her at all. You're calling me out for only focusing to one of your points, but you yourself refuse to argue with people who dispute your other points.

1 hour ago, -Pure said:

Skin gambling controversy? Are you talking about the 9 year olds that got their mothers credit cards and spent money on shady websites? Because there are legitimate websites for crate opening on CS:GO and DotA which not only have fair and set drop chances (you can even see them yourself) but they even allow easy ways to trade up bad skins for better ones at a reasonable cost. If you get addicted to opening cases the problem lies with you, not the game.

No i'm talking about that one big scandal everyone have heard. If you haven't heard it then either you're playing ignorance so it helps your point or you haven't done proper research. Either way, It's a problem that won't exist if not facilitated in the first place. If you believe there's nothing wrong with it and justify it because you can get away by blaming the victims then you are clearly the most wrong one here.

And if you didn't meant to include the market system then why mentioning and keep defending it? "Hey, let's improve the market, here are example of successful markets, but don't follow their method at all" Is that what you're really trying to say?. You keep saying people can't read properly but it's clear you're the one who can't write and argue properly.

Lastly if it took you like 1 day just to reply, then i'll be taking my leave here because i refuse to be stuck here for days.

Edited August 29, 2017 by Rekkou

[InanimateAlex]

So here some hard truth. If they allowed model edits they would have to rely on the community to rig their new meshes for animations which is very precise work that the more skilled could surely do but DE would have to do the same amount of animation QA on a skin as a brand new warframe... For every single skin. That is not feasible

[-Pure]

3 hours ago, phoenix1992 said:

The only way to introduce CS:GO skin system in WF is to ditch the platinum standard, which in my opinion will flat out kill Warframe, due to multiple reasons.

Considering Tennogen skins in general, it pisses me off that they are tied to Steam itself, instead of being introduced in the Warframe Shop.

PS: There are "steam skins" for Warframe - the Rubedo collection, if there was a point to expand on them... I would actually back it up. 

I know there are already steam skins for Warframe which is why i said to just expand on that (apparently people think crates and keys are required on a steam market lol? And are you saying TennoGen skins should be bought with plat? I didn't understand your point, because then the creators would basically make no money at all because of how much plat there is in circulations.

[phoenix1992]

Just now, -Pure said:

I know there are already steam skins for Warframe which is why i said to just expand on that (apparently people think crates and keys are required on a steam market lol? And are you saying TennoGen skins should be bought with plat? I didn't understand your point, because then the creators would basically make no money at all because of how much plat there is in circulations.

I am saying that DE should purchase the skins.  They have put the commission for it, after all and after a certain time has passed (let's say a year or two), they can be purchased from the creator itself and inserted in the game.

[-Pure]

36 minutes ago, InanimateAlex said:

So here some hard truth. If they allowed model edits they would have to rely on the community to rig their new meshes for animations which is very precise work that the more skilled could surely do but DE would have to do the same amount of animation QA on a skin as a brand new warframe... For every single skin. That is not feasible

They already do that for helmets and syandanas, why would it be hard? More work? Sure a small bit, nothing out of the relm of possibility. Again, DotA lets craetors change models, meshes,textures, sounds, effects, ambience, ability icons.... its perfectly possible.

[InanimateAlex]

22 hours ago, -Pure said:

They already do that for helmets and syandanas, why would it be hard? More work? Sure a small bit, nothing out of the relm of possibility. Again, DotA lets craetors change models, meshes,textures, sounds, effects, ambience, ability icons.... its perfectly possible.

Helmets and syandanas have no animation rigging. They are a seperate objects attached to the rigging skeleton. Which is why you will notice that all warframes heads animate from the neck seam and all syandanas are static objects affected by the physics engine not preset animations.

Also DotA2 does not allow you to alter animation rigs. All cosmetics are static overlays onto the existing model. The way theur characters are modeled and animated takes this system into consideration. Warframe has not been built the same way and as such comparing the systems is meaningless. Youre asking DE to rebuild 50 warframes from the ground up for a system that doesnt really add anything substantial to the game

Edited August 30, 2017 by InanimateAlex
Forgot to adress DotA2 in my response

[-Pure]

On 30/08/2017 at 3:32 PM, InanimateAlex said:

Helmets and syandanas have no animation rigging. They are a seperate objects attached to the rigging skeleton. Which is why you will notice that all warframes heads animate from the neck seam and all syandanas are static objects affected by the physics engine not preset animations.

Also DotA2 does not allow you to alter animation rigs. All cosmetics are static overlays onto the existing model. The way theur characters are modeled and animated takes this system into consideration. Warframe has not been built the same way and as such comparing the systems is meaningless. Youre asking DE to rebuild 50 warframes from the ground up for a system that doesnt really add anything substantial to the game

Doesn't add anything to the game? I think you are alone in that thinking. Why wouldn't you want cooler looking warframes lmao?

[Zookes]

Would prefer Steam to be removed as a requirement for acquisition of Tennogen items on PC.
I do not use Steam. I will never use Steam. Valve is a very bad company and I refuse to have any business from it. Even if this means I do not buy Tennogen items ever because of the foolish desire of others to require this.

[-Pure]

6 hours ago, Zookes said:

Would prefer Steam to be removed as a requirement for acquisition of Tennogen items on PC.
I do not use Steam. I will never use Steam. Valve is a very bad company and I refuse to have any business from it. Even if this means I do not buy Tennogen items ever because of the foolish desire of others to require this.

That's fair enough, while being on the steam market would make them far more accessible, so too would them being available on Warframe's own market as currently a bunch of people cannot buy them as they use the stand-alone client. I would also be for removing Steam altogether but i don't think that's in the cards.

[InanimateAlex]

23 hours ago, -Pure said:

Doesn't add anything to the game? I think you are alone in that thinking. Why wouldn't you want cooler looking warframes lmao?

Its kind of telling that my opinion on cosmetics was what you focused on, ignoring the actual content on the comment...

[True_Naeblis]

@-Pure What was the point of the thread if you're going to ignore everyone's replies to your comments or try and refute their evidence with your opinion rather than facts of your own? You presented your thoughts, the flaws have been pointed out. Constructively take them into consideration or move on, but you're not going to gain any support for this by flat out ignoring reasoned responses to your post.