Should passive energy regeneration be a norm for our Warframes? (Like Archwing)

[phoenix1992]

10 minutes ago, letir said:

Health and Energy regeneration are mandatory for sucessful gameplay in Warframe. Just because veterans have many alternatives and can simply overpower content dosen't mean that they aren't necessary.

Red Orbs droprate are S#&$ty because developers are never adjust them properly. Simple as that. Veterans with Rage/Lifestrake alredy making health tanks extremly powerful, measy 25 HP won't change anything.

 

And yes, I am measuring QoL features within game content. These things can make WarFrame much more noob-friendly and allow newbies to progress game easer. Newbies alredy have enough problems with map progression and RNG over mandatory mods, @#&$-blocking them from such important features is just stupid.

Just because pricks like you talking about "we don't need it" dosen't mean anything. 80-90% of playerbase used Carrier (with Vacuum), but every single thread about Universal Vacuum have plenty of "I don't use Vacuum at all, git gud", "It's design choice", and so on.

Please, there is a bit of a difference between the goal of this topic, wich let's be honest, is more or less a "We want Zenurik" and general balance and "noob friendliness".  There are issues with the new game experience, make no mistake but do not segway between the two topics like that, you can't claim "noob friendliness" when it effects 100% of the player base. 
A noob friendly change was the removal of revival cap per frame per day. 
Changing the Energy system on the terms that multiple persons have already mentioned (not everyone is as self aware and knowledgeable of various levels of the game like yourself)  - "but it is more fun",  "my build can not work without this " (yes some builds will have issues without zenurik, not nearly all of them), or one of my favorites "I don't want to use alternatives because they are boring",  is  not "noob friendly". There must be a clear divide between what is fair (buffing Syphon for example) and what is flat out greed.

[Szilvia]

14 minutes ago, letir said:

Health and Energy regeneration are mandatory for sucessful gameplay in Warframe. Just because veterans have many alternatives and can simply overpower content dosen't mean that they aren't necessary.

Red Orbs droprate are S#&$ty because developers are never adjust them properly. Simple as that. Veterans with Rage/Lifestrake alredy making health tanks extremly powerful, measy 25 HP won't change anything.

 

And yes, I am measuring QoL features within game content. These things can make WarFrame much more noob-friendly and allow newbies to progress game easer. Newbies alredy have enough problems with map progression and RNG over mandatory mods, @#&$-blocking them from such important features is just stupid.

Just because pricks like you talking about "we don't need it" dosen't mean anything. 80-90% of playerbase used Carrier (with Vacuum), but every single thread about Universal Vacuum have plenty of "I don't use Vacuum at all, git gud", "It's design choice", and so on.

Pretty much this. These are design choices but bad designs and a base small amount of regeneration doesn't hurt the game and still not make obsolete the healer support frames. Universal vacuum was a good idea but many peoples cryed about it and finally we are in the same boat as we were before.

Te whole companion system needs an overhaul because the sentinels still better than the other pets. That would be a qol change if we given as a warframe passive then no need to choose between the sentinels and pets for the automatic loot ability. Same goes for the health-energy regen.

Sadly many peoples are hard try and doesn't understand these things are not op at all and the game is changed a lot yet many features are unchanged and not followed the game changes. Not worth to arguing with them because they will defend it at all cost. Better discuss this on seeing cons and pros and making few polls.

Personally I am using equilibrium for this case because the energy orbs drop more often and with those I can refill my energy unless there are eximus units. I wouldn't mind a passive regen if it is limited on acceptable but lower level.

[LokiTheCondom]

9 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Please, there is a bit of a difference between the goal of this topic, wich let's be honest, is more or less a "We want Zenurik" and general balance and "noob friendliness".  There are issues with the new game experience, make no mistake but do not segway between the two topics like that, you can't claim "noob friendliness" when it effects 100% of the player base. 
A noob friendly change was the removal of revival cap per frame per day. 
Changing the Energy system on the terms that multiple persons have already mentioned (not everyone is as self aware and knowledgeable of various levels of the game like yourself)  - "but it is more fun",  "my build can not work without this " (yes some builds will have issues without zenurik, not nearly all of them), or one of my favorites "I don't want to use alternatives because they are boring",  is  not "noob friendly". There must be a clear divide between what is fair (buffing Syphon for example) and what is flat out greed.

Let's say the devs scrap Energy Siphon altogether (turn it into Endo or whatever), and actually do give universal energy regeneration at say 1-2 regen per sec, how would it affect you or the player base in any way? What negative consequences are some of us not seeing that you are?

Edited September 20, 2017 by LokiTheCondom
Typo

[Volinus7]

Noobgates are essential for Warframe skinner box unless you want to abolish all monetized progression and sell only cosmetics of course. 

HP regen and EN regen are just noobgates. If you don't have patience to grind necessary mods to sustain your HP/EN then use your plats to buy them from others, simple. 

I think there should be many people post video on YouTube like "WTF first mission no HP/EN regen? Literally unplayable!!" and uninstall WF before even finish the first quest lol. But no...why? because that's how a good skinner box works, it's subtle, at your first mission you don't think you need any broken stuffs most 1000+hrs are addicted to. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Volinus7

[phoenix1992]

Just now, LokiTheCondom said:

Let's say the devs scrap Energy Siphon altogether (turn it into Endo or whatever), and actually do give universal energy regeneration at say 1-2 regen per sec, how would it affect you or the player base in anyway? What negative consequences are some of us not seeing that you are?

How many times must I repeat to You   that toggle cast frames are a thing, they are not 1 or 2, and they can not use Energy Syphon, OE or majority of the Energy regain abilities?
How many times must I repeat to you, that not only Zenurik is removed?  I will miss my increased melee damage, the longer affinity range and the higher critt rate (no, fork Shadowstep this should have never entered the game)
The removal of focus is global Nerf regardless of what specific frame are you using, what makes your playstyle special enough to warrant a free pass?
 

[LokiTheCondom]

16 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

How many times must I repeat to You   that toggle cast frames are a thing, they are not 1 or 2, and they can not use Energy Syphon, OE or majority of the Energy regain abilities?
How many times must I repeat to you, that not only Zenurik is removed?  I will miss my increased melee damage, the longer affinity range and the higher critt rate (no, fork Shadowstep this should have never entered the game)
The removal of focus is global Nerf regardless of what specific frame are you using, what makes your playstyle special enough to warrant a free pass?
 

No wonder one of my post wasn't quoted by you in response to your toggle ability frames, because you didn't bother to read it. (Also I pout because you probably missed the fun fact I gave on forma)

Energy regeneration is via a crappy waste of aura slot, frame abilities, restores that required effort to make. Blood Rush+Body Count alone, those passives are the bigger power creep than what you perceive EO to be. "My melee can't hit like a truck on steroids, therefore no one can have passive energy regeneration which was never really a thing unless everyone has Energy Siphon!"

And whoever said anything about my playstyle? If you wanna know so badly, it heavily relies on toggled abilities (namely Renewal and Razorwing). So how am I and others being greedy? Because I'm hoping that everyone can have a bit of QoL changes? For something not more than close to what EO offers?? But back to my main question, how does passive energy regeneration negatively affect you or the player base? I expect an actual answer, not some snarky condescending response that's not even addressing the question.

Edited September 20, 2017 by LokiTheCondom
Additional info ;)

[Rakosta_Kai]

36 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

There must be a clear divide between what is fair (buffing Syphon for example) and what is flat out greed.

I can't speak to all of the points to your argument ( I haven't read them all...apologies) I do agree with this piece wholeheartedly though.

We(the community) have a nasty habit of falling into the trap of false equivalency and conflating "fair and equitable"  when it's actually "OMG this is exactly what I wanted".

The two aren't often the same.

Zenurik wasn't the only school and Energy overflow wasn't the only band-aid ability in it and isn't more or less valuable than any other the other band-aids found in any of the other schools.

 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Padre_Akais

[RX-3DR]

18 minutes ago, LokiTheCondom said:

Let's say the devs scrap Energy Siphon altogether (turn it into Endo or whatever), and actually do give universal energy regeneration at say 1-2 regen per sec, how would it affect you or the player base in any way? What negative consequences are some of us not seeing that you are?

My concern is more towards the overall health of the game. Passive regeneration as a mechanic cultivates a trend of waiting for things to happen. A group of players will start to slow down more and more to take advantage of just regenerating a large amount of energy before proceeding to the next room. It does not become an immediate problem but the problem will only grow as more people start playing the game. Eventually, you will get these new players hitting a point in the game where you're being matched up with them and you find them hiding in a corner, waiting for their energy to recover. Not all new players will do it but just because the boat is sinking doesn't mean we should drill more holes into it. 

This was the whole reason why a cooldown system was avoided in the first place. Energy regeneration is the same thing but with a combined pool for all abilities. 

2 minutes ago, LokiTheCondom said:

Energy regeneration is via a crappy waste of aura slot, frame abilities, restores that required effort to make. Blood Rush+Body Count alone, those passives are the bigger power creep than what you perceive EO to be. "My melee can't hit like a truck on steroids, therefore no one can have passive energy regeneration which was never really a thing unless everyone has Energy Siphon!"

Once again, I bring up my point. Passive energy regeneration costs nothing. Mods take up modding space and capacity. Energy Siphon and Rejuvenation are designed to be kind of crappy as Auras because they are conveniences. The difference between Blood Rush and Body Count against passive energy regeneration is that one of those things require you to hit things, the other requires you to just be in the game. There are definitely a lot of balancing issues with the game where some mods are really good and others are really bad but not everything is equal in worth but there is almost always a cost associated to them.

[LokiTheCondom]

Just now, Flandyrll said:

My concern is more towards the overall health of the game. Passive regeneration as a mechanic cultivates a trend of waiting for things to happen. A group of players will start to slow down more and more to take advantage of just regenerating a large amount of energy before proceeding to the next room. It does not become an immediate problem but the problem will only grow as more people start playing the game. Eventually, you will get these new players hitting a point in the game where you're being matched up with them and you find them hiding in a corner, waiting for their energy to recover. Not all new players will do it but just because the boat is sinking doesn't mean we should drill more holes into it. 

This was the whole reason why a cooldown system was avoided in the first place. Energy regeneration is the same thing but with a combined pool for all abilities. 

Once again, I bring up my point. Passive energy regeneration costs nothing. Mods take up modding space and capacity. Energy Siphon and Rejuvenation are designed to be kind of crappy as Auras because they are conveniences. The difference between Blood Rush and Body Count against passive energy regeneration is that one of those things require you to hit things, the other requires you to just be in the game. There are definitely a lot of balancing issues with the game where some mods are really good and others are really bad but not everything is equal in worth but there is almost always a cost associated to them.

In all my 4 years of playing Warframe never have I encountered such players, with or without energy regeneration, that simply waits to have their energy filled. Of course that's just an anecdotal opinion, but there's nothing substantial that can backup both our claims so it's mostly baseless assumptions on how player will exploit passive regen. Besides, some players who already have Energy Siphon still rely on pizzas when left in a pinch.

Also it's unfair to compare a mod that grants bonus +165% crit chance by swinging your melee 5 times (literally turning majority of melee weapons into Berserker viable) to a plausible passive that'd benefit every player. Anyways, that response was to point out the absurdity of not implementing passive regen just because another Focus school is affected so I'd rather not deviate any further from that.

[phoenix1992]

32 minutes ago, LokiTheCondom said:

No wonder one of my post wasn't quoted by you in response to your toggle ability frames, because you didn't bother to read it. (Also I pout because you probably missed the fun fact I gave on forma)

Energy regeneration is via a crappy waste of aura slot, frame abilities, restores that required effort to make. Blood Rush+Body Count alone, those passives are the bigger power creep than what you perceive EO to be. "My melee can't hit like a truck on steroids, therefore no one can have passive energy regeneration which was never really a thing unless everyone has Energy Siphon!"

And whoever said anything about my playstyle? If you wanna know so badly, it heavily relies on toggled abilities (namely Renewal and Razorwing). So how am I and others being greedy? Because I'm hoping that everyone can have a bit of QoL changes? For something not more than close to what EO offers?? But back to my main question, how does passive energy regeneration negatively affect you or the player base? I expect an actual answer, not some snarky condescending response that's not even addressing the question.

Are you playing the "daft" game? (and no, I don't get forma joke due to personal forma crisis - not enough formas, too many things need formas for PoE)
This topic would have not existed unless the "we will change focus big time" was not trowed from DE.  It is all about the fact that they "may" remove Zenurik, and beating around the bush is bad form. If Zenurik and the rest of the focus system did not exist for the last 2 years, this topic would have been way too different.
 

4 minutes ago, LokiTheCondom said:

In all my 4 years of playing Warframe never have I encountered such players, with or without energy regeneration, that simply waits to have their energy filled. Of course that's just an anecdotal opinion, but there's nothing substantial that can backup both our claims so it's mostly baseless assumptions on how player will exploit passive regen. Besides, some players who already have Energy Siphon still rely on pizzas when left in a pinch.

 

Axi survival "Camp please" - let's be honest gameplay quality of the pugs is iffy at best, there are always people that want to cheese in a personal way.

Stop beating around the bush and saying half true things. You want a form of Zenurik, because Focus will be "revamped", while ignoring the fact that many frame builds could not rely on Zenurik from the get go and this has nothing to do with being edgy or being try hard, or should I get rid of any toggle frame  and build post PoE, due to being under powered?

[Wolfdoggie]

Yes. For lore+fun sake. Designing Warframes to use power/help Tenno channel power through but are somehow unable to regen it on their own is just weird. The Operator recovers power on his own so he should be able to refill his Warframe's power without the need for mods/blue Gatorade bubbles. There's Zenurik but they're murdering it apparently.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Wolfdoggie

[LokiTheCondom]

5 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Are you playing the "daft" game? (and no, I don't get forma joke due to personal forma crisis - not enough formas, too many things need formas for PoE)
This topic would have not existed unless the "we will change focus big time" was not trowed from DE.  It is all about the fact that they "may" remove Zenurik, and beating around the bush is bad form. If Zenurik and the rest of the focus system did not exist for the last 2 years, this topic would have been way too different.
 

Axi survival "Camp please" - let's be honest gameplay quality of the pugs is iffy at best, there are always people that want to cheese in a personal way.

Stop beating around the bush and saying half true things. You want a form of Zenurik, because Focus will be "revamped", while ignoring the fact that many frame builds could not rely on Zenurik from the get go and this has nothing to do with being edgy or being try hard, or should I get rid of any toggle frame  and build post PoE, due to being under powered?

You honestly cannot come up with anything solid without relying on strawmans as well as putting words into other people's mouth.

I made none of those points even, so I'm not sure what word salad you're trying to spill at the moment.

And once more you failed to answer me on how passive energy regeneration negatively affects you or the player base.

Debating with you is meaningless, assuming that's what we've been doing which seems unlikely. 

[letir]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

Please, there is a bit of a difference between the goal of this topic, wich let's be honest, is more or less a "We want Zenurik" and general balance and "noob friendliness".  There are issues with the new game experience, make no mistake but do not segway between the two topics like that, you can't claim "noob friendliness" when it effects 100% of the player base. 
A noob friendly change was the removal of revival cap per frame per day. 
Changing the Energy system on the terms that multiple persons have already mentioned (not everyone is as self aware and knowledgeable of various levels of the game like yourself)  - "but it is more fun",  "my build can not work without this " (yes some builds will have issues without zenurik, not nearly all of them), or one of my favorites "I don't want to use alternatives because they are boring",  is  not "noob friendly". There must be a clear divide between what is fair (buffing Syphon for example) and what is flat out greed.

Newbies dosen't have alternatives in matter. They have every option blocked beside RNG, grind-wall or map progression. Lack of simple necessites dosen't add teamwork and challenge to the game, it's simply annoying. It's not fun to play generic Third Person Shooter as Rhino and spend all energy from random orbs on Iron Skin. But thou must, because nobody in your MR2-6 squad have useful auras and alredy unreliable Mag simply cannot function without energy,

There is so many small things, which can be implemented to make things easier for beginners, like some amount of regeneration for free, better droprate of red orbs (pretty useless otherwise), cheaper health consumables and so on. +2 health and energy regen, 10m Vacuum for everyone, 15 m Enemy Radar, etc.

 

There isn't any "fair" or "unfair" game. Just for some reason you thinking that mandatory Energy Syphon is very important part of the game design. It's not. All this "there is X for that" just barring players from enjoyable experience and choice by limiting effective options, narrowing them, making them mandatory. Which isn't fun.

 

People want to play frame at full power even with 100% efficency without crunches. Is that too much too ask?

[phoenix1992]

3 minutes ago, LokiTheCondom said:

And once more you failed to answer me on how passive energy regeneration negatively affects you or the player base.

 

And once more you play the daft game. You want the energy regain, and for it to be detached from the Focus system, because the focus system is getting shot down, while white knighting "I want it for the QL".  
Detach most passives from the focus system (beside shadowstep - let it go down with it), and let people choose between them - fair. Mods should have done that, but they made awfully skewered "balancing" on energy siphon. You want to hear it in the simplest words?
No, Energy regain would have not been bad idea if it did not come with Zenurik dangling with it. But this is how it was set . And keeping only this aspect of the focus system while removing the rest is negative for anyone that does not/can not use it.

 

6 minutes ago, letir said:

There is so many small things, which can be implemented to make things easier for beginners, like some amount of regeneration for free, better droprate of red orbs (pretty useless otherwise), cheaper health consumables and so on. +2 health and energy regen, 10m Vacuum for everyone, 15 m Enemy Radar, etc.

 

No argue, map awareness among other things are crucial, but we have to play with sentienels that provide some of the functions and act as if this is "ok".

 

7 minutes ago, letir said:

People want to play frame at full power even with 100% efficency without crunches. Is that too much too ask?

People want to play builds and frames that can not rely and Zenurik and they could do it to some extend with some form of alternatives. They won't be able to do that soon - is is that much to ask to understand that you can't overhaul only one system like that?

[letir]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

People want to play builds and frames that can not rely and Zenurik and they could do it to some extend with some form of alternatives. They won't be able to do that soon - is is that much to ask to understand that you can't overhaul only one system like that?

Why can't DE overhaul only energy system in WF?

[phoenix1992]

4 minutes ago, letir said:

Why can't DE overhaul only energy system in WF?

That is a lot better topic. 

[letir]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

No argue, map awareness among other things are crucial, but we have to play with sentienels that provide some of the functions and act as if this is "ok".

Most of players prefer Sentinels over pets because of Vacuum, thus wasting all potential and recources which DE put into Kubrows and Kavats.

There is exactly zero reasons why extremly Vacuum shouldn't be inherit part of the Frames.

 

Saying "taht's ok" dosen't magickaly resolve problems, you see.

[letir]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

That is a lot better topic. 

Please, look at the original post again and say, that was theme of this topic so far?

[phoenix1992]

Just now, letir said:

Please, look at the original post again and say, that was theme of this topic so far?

"In lights of Focus system being completely revisited (bye bye Energy Overflow), do you think it's better if passive energy regeneration becomes available to all Warframes similar to our Archwings? Agree or disagree, do share why :)"

I have already made my point about comparing the Archwring energy system and why it is what it is. It is bad comparison due the gameplay reasoning behind the current AW systems...

Energy regen would have been a cool idea before U18, right now this is just not enough.

[letir]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

Energy regen would have been a cool idea before U18, right now this is just not enough.

Not enough for what?

[phoenix1992]

Just now, letir said:

Not enough for what?

Not enough to fit in years of game design in a way that will fit at least majority of the current systems (Hello there, Zephyr). The system was barely working from the start with some cool interactions and ideas (like Prime frames gaining energy from void traps, the Lua energy segments, syndicate procs and mods as an idea), right now it is a cluster of systems that need a refit or a general overhaul. And it must happen soon, before more mods, arcanes and frames over complicate it.

[Rakosta_Kai]

@phoenix1992 and @LokiTheCondom 

Ya'll are saying the same things basically...

EO is a QoL issue... but it's not the -only- QoL issue that's being removed with Focus because everyone couldn't make use of it.

Ideally, Mastery Rank should have provided these incomparable perks per level

Think of it like the old WoW Build Tree or GW2 old Traits...

Every MR offered a perk from select schools and you got to pick one Perk and got one miscellaneous perk besides (Vacuum, casting speed, bullet jump, etc) along with the trade and weapon access, etc.

The next MR rank offered perks from different schools

etc etc

You both conceivably would have gotten some measure of what you wanted in a system like this. 

Add that along with people being able to double up perks and mods for larger gains than either would give alone making it useful account wide based on how divergent your perk choices are.

The benefits to a setup like that is that no character or frame is exactly the same if the value of the skills is balanced properly.

Likewise, you wind up with more well balanced builds as opposed to the pure min/max we see now.

Lastly... MR matters.

 

[letir]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

Not enough to fit in years of game design in a way that will fit at least majority of the current systems (Hello there, Zephyr). The system was barely working from the start with some cool interactions and ideas (like Prime frames gaining energy from void traps, the Lua energy segments, syndicate procs and mods as an idea), right now it is a cluster of systems that need a refit or a general overhaul. And it must happen soon, before more mods, arcanes and frames over complicate it.

Let's start this overhaul with passive energy regeneration. It will be enough for me and some other players. Your imaginary overhaul can wait.

[Nirrel]

1 hour ago, Flandyrll said:

My concern is more towards the overall health of the game. Passive regeneration as a mechanic cultivates a trend of waiting for things to happen. A group of players will start to slow down more and more to take advantage of just regenerating a large amount of energy before proceeding to the next room. It does not become an immediate problem but the problem will only grow as more people start playing the game. Eventually, you will get these new players hitting a point in the game where you're being matched up with them and you find them hiding in a corner, waiting for their energy to recover. Not all new players will do it but just because the boat is sinking doesn't mean we should drill more holes into it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but passive energy regen was in the game for more than a year now. It's called EO and it's one of the most used focus abilities, but the gameplay not only did not slow down, but on the contrary, it sped it up enabling ppl to use their warframe abilities more often, not having to sit on a pizza to fill their energy bar up, or wait for trinity to EV. So I cannot see your concern that players would slow down at all.

Do you have any other concern for the health of the game in case passive regen would be implemented? Because I still do not see any.

 

[(PSN)varas2110]

no because i main limbo and limbo has everything