Zephyr is cool, but what changes should be made?

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

2 hours ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

I'm an avid Zephyr fan

You might be a fan but you're definitely not good with her. 

You've already spread so much false information just reading through this. Ground slam recovers faster than Tailwind? You must mean dive bomb and that subjective to each melee weapon.

I Tailwind downward because it let's you reach the floor faster while keeping momentum. Every experienced Zephyr player knows this.

What most of the player base doesn't realize if that when you suggest changes it  greatly affects those who are already accustomed and put in the time and effort to master what was available. 

If DE listens to these suggestions from players who don't even play the frame at all and the rework ends up being bad, well everyone who didn't play Zephyr before just ends up going back to their regular frames while all the people who used to play her before have to love with garbage.

Reworks are meant to enhance existing functionalities, not to create new abilities just for the sake of "bird".

You like flying, pick Titania. Zephyr glides if anything.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

59 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

This vicious circle is actually why some frames are trickier to build, and why some people still think they're not that good

Players with little knowledge and limited resources can't bring out the best in a lot of frames. 

Party of the reason why people think Atlas sucks ect. If the build isn't max efficiency spam or just add power strength people are dumbfounded 

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

2 hours ago, Xgomme said:

I'm not a dragon, can I ruin Chroma ?

Is that you assuming again? I don't actually like Chroma. I just like the profile picture.

2 hours ago, Xgomme said:

You're just randomly designing things, without thinking about what you already have ingame.

Um, no. We have two abilities that can very easily be merged together and you're putting together some vague argument about how it will ruin the frame.

2 hours ago, Xgomme said:

If you merge both you lose half of what is interesting in those two abilities.

This is the weakest excuse I have ever read. You loose nothing. Dive Bomb remains the same, Tailwind remains the same.

2 hours ago, Xgomme said:

And I won't accept that meh argument that you "came with another  viewpoint" when you're basically scrapping everything about the frame to add, nothing ? You're doing it the wrong way. Start with what you have, sort it in a way the gameplay will be the best and then add things...

What on earth are you talking about? You are just spouting nonsense at this point. I am not "scrapping everything" about Zephyr at all. Merging two abilities which are perfectly capable of being merged without a problem, in order to make room for a new ability is not "scrapping". You are just very protective of Zephyr in her current state because fee-fees are more important to you than actual improvements.

2 hours ago, Xgomme said:

Clearly doubt about that when you can't even understand how a slam attack is working and why it's more valuable to tailwind down instead of this 

Again you assume more rubbish because my opinion doesn't match with yours. There was me thinking you were actually smart. Slam attack is more valuable for the reasons I listed beforehand which you clearly ignored.

36 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

You might be a fan but you're definitely not good with her. 

Another person judging my experience based on nothing.

37 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Ground slam recovers faster than Tailwind?

Yes, in a sense that Tailwind is unreliable in where it takes you. Face-planting and smearing yourself across the room vs Slamming down once and getting up after 1 second. Perhaps you misunderstood the main point which is that ground slams are far more efficient both energy wise and direction wise than Tailwind.

41 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I Tailwind downward because it let's you reach the floor faster while keeping momentum. Every experienced Zephyr player knows this.

I was wondering when I'd see the "Every experienced (insert name here) knows this" card. Sorry to burst your bubble but I've been playing with a Zephyr for a period where I would consider myself "experienced" and I view Tailwinding down as a waste of energy when I could just use my Jat Kittag or Fragor Prime. I'll reiterate what I said to Xgomme; just because I do not agree with you, does not mean I do not know about the subject matter.

43 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

What most of the player base doesn't realize if that when you suggest changes it  greatly affects those who are already accustomed and put in the time and effort to master what was available. 

If everyone agreed with that point of view, nothing would get changed. Synoid Gammacor would still be a beast, Press-4-To-Win frames would still be a thing. That is not how life works. Also, please answer me this; how would merging Dive Bomb and Tailwind greatly alter your gameplay, apart from the fact that you have two abilities assigned to one button? All I have seen so far from Xgomme are completely anecdotal nitpicks which do not count as a valid argument.

52 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

If DE listens to these suggestions from players who don't even play the frame at all and the rework ends up being bad, well everyone who didn't play Zephyr before just ends up going back to their regular frames while all the people who used to play her before have to love with garbage.

I do agree that one should try out a frame before giving their opinion on a rework, just so they can see what they are working with, but I don't agree that all outside suggestions are entirely bad. This is a kind of fear-mongering that I've seen with multiple other reworks, not just in Warframe.

55 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Reworks are meant to enhance existing functionalities, not to create new abilities just for the sake of "bird".

Definition of rework:

To make changes to something, to make it up to date.

In no way does that translate to "enhance existing functionalities".

Changes can very from updates to existing abilities, to completely replacing them. Have you forgotten Excalibur's Super Jump already? I am also not asking for new abilities for the sake of "bird". I'm not even asking we remove any of her current abilities. I'm suggesting that DE merge her first and second together, leaving her third alone and making some QoL to her fourth. That would leave her second ability slot empty and they could create a new interesting ability. That is making Zephyr better, not worse as they are not taking anything away. Yet you and others insist on acting like I've just asked DE to perform the gaming equivalent of FGM on her. Please stop being so melodramatic.

1 hour ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

You like flying, pick Titania. Zephyr glides if anything.

Not particularly fond of Titania because she forces you into Archwing mode, which I vehemently despise. I'd prefer to use my own guns. Is it really that much of an issue to request that an air-manipulation frame have some sort of flying ability? It doesn't even have to be an ability. Like I suggested earlier, build it into her existing passive so that when you aim down sights while in the air, you hover.

Honestly I really do detest when other people have the gall to tell you what you're good at like they know exactly what you have played and how you've played it. Show some respect/intelligence by not assuming stuff simply because you don't like what I type on the internet.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

@Xgomme @Renovakunumaru Can you both just have some humility and realise that just because you main a frame that does not give you the right to dictate how to play said frame to others. No one has the final word on how a frame should be played, no matter how much of an "experienced player" you consider yourself to be. There is no set way of playing Zephyr, Oberon, Excalibur, Limbo, Frost, Wukong, Nezha or any other frame in the game for that matter. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[Xgomme]

It's not my main, I just dig a frame before talking about it... And I don't dictate how people should play the frame, but what is possible with it. You even brain ?

I already answered all the points you keep repeating, search for you answers

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

8 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

It's not my main, I just dig a frame before talking about it... And I don't dictate how people should play the frame, but what is possible with it. 

You are dictating about how to play the frame. You said literally said only a few posts ago that I should play how you suggested as if somehow my play-style was wrong;

The thing is I suggest you to try all the fun things I talk about in this thread, and after, you'll maybe not ask the same rework

 (even though I'd said I'd done those combos already).

8 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

I already answered all the points you keep repeating, search for you answers

So weak, vague statements like "If you merge both you loose half of what is interesting in those abilities" are your answers to how it would "ruin Zephyr". Sorry to say, but that is not a good answer. Fee-fees do not count when talking about reworks. 

Edited September 25, 2017 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[Xgomme]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

You are dictating about how to play the frame. You said literally said only a few posts ago that I should play how you suggested as if somehow my play-style was wrong;

The thing is I suggest you to try all the fun things I talk about in this thread, and after, you'll maybe not ask the same rework

 (even though I'd said I'd done those combos already).

So weak, vague statements like "If you merge both you loose half of what is interesting in those abilities" are your answers to how it would "ruin Zephyr". Sorry to say, but that is not a good answer. Fee-fees do not count when talking about reworks. 

You clearly have something missing somewhere I can't fix


You tried everything yeah sure, but you still say total false things... Something's wrong anyway, try better ?


Who is dictating, the one saying "but you can do that with her" (me) or the one "let's remove everything because I don't use them" (you)

I already said that if you merge both you'll have divebomb when you look down, wich is a pain...

And you don't talk about rework, you try to design a meh flying wind frame with some Zephyr abilites o/





When you say "I lose all credibility" but what you point is wrong, omg, hide yourself and stop trying hard to rework something you don't know :D

Edited September 25, 2017 by Xgomme

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

3 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

Who is dictating, the one saying "but you can do that with her" (me)

You did not say "but you can do that with her" when telling me that my play-style was wrong. Stop pretending like your sentence didn't mean exactly that. 

4 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

"let's remove everything because I don't use them" (you)

Okay it's clear you are trolling at this point, because I have never said DE should remove anything.

5 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

I already said that if you merge both you'll have divebomb when you look down, wich is a pain...

How? 

5 minutes ago, Xgomme said:

And you don't talk about rework, you try to design a meh flying wind frame with some Zephyr abilites o/

We've reached the end of our discussion. Hope you have a nice day man.

[Xgomme]

Just now, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

You did not say "but you can do that with her" when telling me that my play-style was wrong. Stop pretending like your sentence didn't mean exactly that. 

Okay it's clear you are trolling at this point, because I have never said DE should remove anything.

How? 

We've reached the end of our discussion. Hope you have a nice day man.

If you were less exploding people messages maybe you could understand something... Reread this thread, it's a pain.

Yeah and now I'm trolling, sure. "So weak" 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

39 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

@Xgomme @Renovakunumaru Can you both just have some humility and realise that just because you main a frame that does not give you the right to dictate how to play said frame to others. No one has the final word on how a frame should be played, no matter how much of an "experienced player" you consider yourself to be. There is no set way of playing Zephyr, Oberon, Excalibur, Limbo, Frost, Wukong, Nezha or any other frame in the game for that matter. 

Did you even read what I wrote? 

You're confusing Tailwind with Dive-bomb, in which I corrected you. You do not recover faster from Melee slam vs tailwind in going towards the ground. 

From that mistake which you keep making, I'm considering you inexperienced. 

My context isn't to dictate how others play Zephyr so please stop putting words in my mouth. Its to have players acknowledge that the essence of the debate is to exchange ideas and feedback as well as criticism because should your suggestions be considered and implemented, they have consequences on a larger playerbase than just yourself.

 

[Paradoxbomb]

• Infinite air glide would be nice, allowing you to tailwind high up into the air and pick off enemies from the sky more easily.
• It would definitely be nice to see the Devs combine her 1st and 2nd ability; not sure what to fill the empty ability slot with, but I'm sure there are plenty of good fan ideas floating around.
• Instead of summoning several several tornadoes that just kinda roam about doing their own thing, I think it would be interesting if Zephyr instead summoned a single, larger tornado that followed the player's reticule (a remote-controlled tornado basically). Combined with Tailwind and the aforementioned infinite air gliding, she could take to the sky and guide the tornado across the battlefield with her bird's eye view. It would certainly make for a more active ability that synergizes with her ability to be airborne IMO, but I suppose such a thing could also be an augment for player's who prefer her current ultimate's functionality.

Edited September 25, 2017 by Paradoxbomb

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

Just now, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

You're confusing Tailwind with Dive-bomb, in which I corrected you.

No I never confused the two. I know exactly what each one does. 

1 minute ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

From that mistake which you keep making, I'm considering you inexperienced. 

So, you read my posts wrong and assumed something.

1 minute ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

My context isn't to dictate how others play Zephyr so please stop putting words in my mouth.

Calling me inexperienced because you view my way of playing as incorrect. That is dictating.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Its to have players acknowledge that the essence of the debate is to exchange ideas and feedback as well as criticism because should your suggestions be considered and implemented, they have consequences on a larger playerbase than just yourself.

Agreed. I'm not thinking of just myself here (unlike some people), nor am I saying my suggestions are the pinnacle of innovation. 

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

6 minutes ago, Paradoxbomb said:

• Instead of summoning several several tornadoes that just kinda roam about doing their own thing, I think it would be interesting if Zephyr instead summoned a single, larger tornado that followed the player's reticule (a remote-controlled tornado basically). Combined with Tailwind and the aforementioned infinite air gliding, she could take to the sky and guide the tornado across the battlefield with her bird's eye view. It would certainly make for a more active ability that synergizes with her ability to be airborne IMO, but I suppose such a thing could also be an augment for player's who prefer her current ultimate's functionality.

That's a cool idea. Reminds me of the lightning attack from the first inFamous game. Sounds pretty fun to play too, synergising with Tailwind. 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Tailwind is unreliable in where it takes you. Face-planting and smearing yourself

Trivia time:

Which one is Zephyrs mobility moves is a face plant?

18 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

Calling me inexperienced because you view my way of playing as incorrect. That is dictating

I never said your way of playing is incorrect, I said you were wrong about Tailwinds recovery vs Melee slam.

You are trying so hard with this. Just say oh my bad and move on rather than make yourself sound foolish.

I didn't read your post won't, I read exactly what you wrote and you reiterated it.

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

8 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Which one is Zephyrs mobility moves is a face plant?

You do realise that I didn't mean Dive Bomb right? I was talking about using tailwind to fly directly onto the floor, which in real life would mean a literal face-plant. Seriously why didn't you clarify this before posting a condescending "correction"? Both abilities are very similar.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I never said your way of playing is incorrect, I said you were wrong about Tailwinds recovery vs Melee slam.

And you still miss the point.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

You are trying so hard with this. Just say oh my bad and move on rather than make yourself sound foolish.

Oh my bad about what? I have said nothing wrong. All you can provide is anecdotes and misunderstandings.

8 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

I didn't read your post won't, I read exactly what you wrote and you reiterated it.

You very clearly did read it wrong as you have tried to "correct" me when I never needed correcting.

Edited September 25, 2017 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

-snip-

Well now that it's been quoted several times people can read it for themselves and decide what you meant. 

You can lie all you want but it's beyond obvious.

Funny, one of Zephyrs moves smashes her to the floor but for the life I me, I can't seem to get the other one to regardless of how much I aim down.

Edited September 25, 2017 by (PS4)RenovaKunumaru

[BrazilianJoe]

I think Zephyr should have its "super sayan" form as an Exalted-like power. 

BUT, since it relies so heavily on mobility, it shouldn't wait for its 4th ability to be able to use it. As such, it Exalted form would be an Exilus-level of Exalted-ish form, triggering on its ability 1.

1) Tail Wind/Dive Bomb - folded into one, those powers would be useable when Zephyr activates its basic ability. It has no drain, except when a jump, bullet jump or ground slam are performed. Jumps and  Bullet Jumps would become Tail Wind's signature powers, and ground slams would become dive bombs. Exilus Mods would have their effect increased by Power Strength. 

2) Bird of Prey - When activated, can grab (ragdoll) up to 1/2/3/4 enemies and carry them around for up to 10 seconds. Enemies acts as shields, taking up bullets, and suffer impact damage when they are used to collide with other enemies when using tailwind/divebomb maneuvers. Deactivating tosses the enemies to the ground causing impact damage. 

3) Turbulence - mostly works, but the implementation is a bit flawed, making it less reliable than it should. Needs a reliability pass to deflect bullets to directions which won't cause Zephyr's high mobility to crash on deflected bullets, and improve defensibility versus hitscan.

4) Tornado - should have a rework IMO. Tornados should be castable individually, and have a radius around them where they would suck up enemies, and do the already known ragdoll.. Zephyr can cast separate tornadoes or cast a tornado inside a tornado, increasing its damage, resetting duration, and increasing suck up radius. The tornado would slowly lose strength. Tornado should grow until it becomes really big (class 5) if the player keeps reshooting it. Shooting the tornado should suck up the damage and spread it on enemies. 

 

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

10 minutes ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

Well now that it's been quoted several times people can read it for themselves and decide what you meant. 

You can lie all you want but it's beyond obvious.

I never lied. You never asked. Ironically it's you who's now trying to cover up your faux pas when you accused me of doing that. Also did you miss the part of the sentence where I said "Face-planting and smearing yourself across the room". Does Dive-Bomb continue when you hit the ground or a wall? No. So yes it is beyond obvious that you made a big mistake. Maybe actually ask me to clarify, like a level-headed person next time.

Edited September 25, 2017 by (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01

[(PSN)BLOOD-LINE-01]

19 minutes ago, BrazilianJoe said:

2) Bird of Prey - When activated, can grab (ragdoll) up to 1/2/3/4 enemies and carry them around for up to 10 seconds. Enemies acts as shields, taking up bullets, and suffer impact damage when they are used to collide with other enemies when using tailwind/divebomb maneuvers. Deactivating tosses the enemies to the ground causing impact damage. 

This sounds interesting. Sounds a little tricky to make it work correctly though. Would the enemies act as sort of bullet magnets?

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

25 minutes ago, BrazilianJoe said:

I think Zephyr should have its "super sayan" form as an Exalted

You had me at Super Saiyan.

[BrazilianJoe]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

This sounds interesting. Sounds a little tricky to make it work correctly though. Would the enemies act as sort of bullet magnets?

Possibly. either small ones, 1-2m wide, or they would have volt-like carrying shields each one, which would take the hits and transfer to the ragdolled enemy. 

[blacklusterseph]

What I'd like to see for Zephyr

Tailwind - launch Zephyr at cross-hair only, remove the surface/air difference. Guaranteed to knock targeted and nearby (affected by power range) enemies down and move them aside which would be a major plus over bullet jump since turbulence is vulnerable to melee. This ability cast point has to be fast as well. My only loose measure for a 1 ability is that is has to come out faster than a Corpus tech can shoot me. This ability doesn't need any damage or procs otherwise. 

Divebomb - I know this won't happen at this stage but I really don't think this ability is necessary. Considering some of the bugs I see in other warframes it seems to me like surface detection issues/bugs are something fundamental in the game engine that I don't think are going anywhere. For moves like this and tailwind that have different behavior based on interactions with the environment, I think it would be better if those dependencies were removed for the sake of sanity. If this ability were to be replaced, one idea I saw recently that seemed interesting (sorry, I don't remember the poster) was giving Zephyr a buffing ability. One I think that might work to appease the melee Zephyr players would be a 2 that gives Zephyr a range buff on any melee weapon she uses. Additionally, this buff would very slightly, pull/suck nearby enemies towards Zephyr with every weapon swing (based on power range).

Tornado - I think this move is mostly effective, it just needs QoL improvements. The tornadoes just need to move a bit (doesn't have to be much) faster and get slightly better pathing AI (Octavia's Mallet albeit not perfect, seems be a base that might work a better.

[Mudfam]

I don't see an issue with her 1 and 2 being merged if the difference is holding down the button, not aiming down. The difference is only really important by the time you hit a surface, not when you first initiate it. Potentially you could "divebomb" into walls or enemies. Freeing up a slot for a new ability sounds pretty great to me.

I really don't want basic game controls to change. I want to roll, bullet jump, aim glide and use her abilities. It's fun to use all these things together, and I don't want basic controls I use by muscle memory to suddenly do something different when I switch frame.

The idea of having to hold space to activate reduced gravity while falling normally is interesting. I'm not sure if it would be a bit fiddly in practice, but I think I'd welcome it.

I don't like Tornado. It's unpredictable and honestly just annoying when you're trying to kill stuff (read: always). Its ability to proc corrosive status is interesting, especially with the augment, but having to also use a corrosive weapon and shoot them is a nuisance. I can't say I have any great ideas on how this ability could be improved, I would be very interested to hear some.

[Xriborg]

Zephyr isn't awful, but she's definitely outdated after parkour 2.0. They took what made her special and gave it to everyone. Yeah, she can fly farther, but there's barely anywhere you can take advantage of it. What I would have suggested, they gave to Titania with shrink, so I guess that isn't happening.

If I had to do a rework of Zephyr, I would focus on keeping her in the air, and also keeping her opponents in the air. With this rework, if you're using Zephyr on the ground, you're doing it wrong.

Passive-Take her low gravity and crank it up to 11. She should be able to stay in the air as much as she wants. Replace her double jump with a "flap" ability that she can use as any times as she wants to stay in the air. Replace bulletjump with a swoop (same functionality, different animation) that she can use as many times as she wants. I think this would go a long way into making her feel more birdlike, in both her actions and how the controls feel.

1-Replace her 1 with a homing attack. She lunges for an enemy closest to the cursor and slams into them. They go flying in the opposite direction, taking more damage the higher into the air they are. If you hold the ability button, she instead uses them as a springboard, sending them rocketing to the ground as she bounces up.

2-Allow divebomb to be angled. She shouldn't be going sideways but she should have more aerial freedom. When she slams, anyone hit by the blast goes straight up into the air, allowing for combos with her 1 ability.

3-It's good, but it's kinda boring. I'd replace it with a stationary shield of air, similar to Volts, but one that can be produced at any angle. Also, to give Zephyr some teamplay utility, perhaps allies can stand on it.

4-Replace her 4 with one big tornado that she can aim the spawnpoint of. Divebombing the tornado causes it to explode, sending everyone flying for massive damage. Allies can bulletjump inside it for double velocity.

 

 

[Paradoxbomb]

23 hours ago, (PS4)BLOOD-LINE-01 said:

That's a cool idea. Reminds me of the lightning attack from the first inFamous game. Sounds pretty fun to play too, synergising with Tailwind. 

I wasn't even thinking about that when I suggested it, but boy did I love that game and that power. All the more reason for it to be thing.