Skana and Gram- I'm so confused :(

[Redwoodlynx]

I'm officially totally lost when it comes to how weapon stats work in this game. I just got to rank 30 with my first melee weapon- the Skana- so I thought I'd look around for a new one to try. I find the Gram- wait. Every single stat on this thing is superior to the Skana? even at rank one compared to my rank 30? How is this possible? It somehow supposedly even has faster attack speed, despite the skana being a nimble on handed blade and the Gram being a big old greatsword (and I can tell you right now it also definitely isn't the case in practice, as having tried both). Even more troubling, the base stats of the Gram seem to outclass pretty much all one handed swords, even the mastery rank 8 Nikana. What the heck is going on? What am I reading wrong?

[Bobtm]

Attack speed on melee weapons is tied to the stance you're using.  Stanceless defaults per weapon type (with a few unique exceptions I won't mention).  The Gram is fast for a greatsword, but is going to be slower on average than many other weapons.

To put an example of how to think about it.  A listing of 1.0 attack speed basically means that a given weapon is moving at 100% of its own normal speed for the stance equipped.  Lower than that means slower than "standard", higher of course means higher than "standard".

Beyond that point, stance mods on melee weapons will have various extra traits that modify a weapon's traits.  To wit, Crimson Dervish deals 300% damage on the first three strikes of its combos.  Some combos have slams, forced status procs, can knockdown or ragdoll enemies, cause your frame to dash, etc.

And lastly, there will be times when some weapons just do genuinely outclass others.  The Starter weapons are a good example to run with here, as there are many pistols that are better in every category than Lato, Mk1-Braton, and Skana.  This game is neither one where all weapons are evenly balanced against one another, but it's also not one where only the highest level (Mastery Rank) items are good either.

When it comes to any weapon in Warframe you'll come to better get a vibe on a weapon's handling just by looking at stats.  Since with time comes a better understanding of the various finer points of things.  Melee weapons specifically have the largest number of unlisted/hidden stats due to how stance mods work.  So they can be the trickiest to fully understand.

[Aurea_Hiigara]

Rank doesn't affect the weapon's stats; at level 1 and level 30 the weapon has the same stats.

What it does, however, is increase the capacity for putting mods on the weapon. These mods are what makes weapons and warframes stronger.

Secondly, the Skana is a starter weapon; there isn't a single game I know of with weapon progression in which the starter weapon remains competitive.

I can't speak for the Gram, it's not a weapon that's remained in my memory, but you get the hands-down best onehanded sword from one of the game's quests later on. Until then just try out all the weapons the game has to offer; even if you never use them again, having learned to use them (getting them to rank 30) carries its own rewards later.

[Spartan336]

Weapon balance does not exist in this game. 

There are weapons that have low base stats, and ones that have high base stats. Each has their own little quirk of course, like with great swords you're reduced to a snails pace while swinging, but overall you wont find that appearance matters TO much. (Unless you go fashionframe.) 

Damage will just keep going up as you get new weapons, and the mods you use will become more powerful as well. That's just how the game works. 

[rapt0rman]

Well first off the base "1.0" attack speed relies on the actual animations of that weapon type, a 1.0 attack speed on longswords is different than a 1.0 attack speed on heavy blades.

Next up, the skana is part of the beginner starting gear, yes it is supposed to be pretty much the worst longsword (and 90% of the long swords are indeed bad), upgrading to stronger weapons is part of the point.

[Sanxxieh]

Basic differences between 1h and 2h swords (roughly, since there is a lot more differences):

1h:
> lesser but more frequent damage
> single target
> staggers single enemy on hit

2h:
> higher but less frequent damage
> AoE
> harder to stagger/knockdown while swinging


Now Skana vs Gram... Skana is a starter weapon, it is one of the weakest melees in game. Gram used to be the best 2h sword for a longer while, hence it is better.
Rank of weapon does not increase its stats, instead the rank of weapon allows you to modify it to get their stats increased.

Thus for example modded lvl 10 skana can be a few times more powerful than rank 30 skana without mods.

[Dhrekr]

Hi :)

Just now, Redwoodlynx said:

Every single stat on this thing is superior to the Skana?

The Skana is one of the weakest weapons out there. It's no Machete, but anything that has to be compared to the Machete to look good is bad.

Just now, Redwoodlynx said:

even at rank one compared to my rank 30?

The stats of weapons don't change with the level of the weapons. Only their mod space (meaning that you can equiip more mods at level 30, so the weapon is indirectly stronger).

Just now, Redwoodlynx said:

It somehow supposedly even has faster attack speed

No. The speed statistics is very, very misleading. It's not "actual hits per second" or something like that.

Melee weapons have movesets (you might already have discovered Stances - each Stance has its own moveset), and in movesets each move has its own animation speed. The speed statistics of a weapon is "how much it speeds up the animation".

So (and I'm going to invent the numbers), for instance, a sword moveset's first stab has an animation of 0.6sec before it connects. A Greatword moveset's first slice has an animation time of 1.2 sec before it connects. If a specific sword has a speed of 0.8, then the first stab requires 0.75s; and let's compare it with a Greatsword of speed 1.2, which takes 1.2sec to hit.

You see, in this (admittedly invented) example, the sword is still faster than the greatsword even though the sword's speed is 0.8 and the greatsword's is 1.2. Don't know the actual numbers, but... yeah. The speed number makes sense only comparing a sword to another sword (as the moveset is the same).

Just now, Redwoodlynx said:

Even more troubling, the base stats of the Gram seem to outclass pretty much all one handed swords, even the mastery rank 8 Nikana

The Gram is not a terrible weapon, but it has low supplementary stats (critical values, status chance), which limit its effectiveness. For higher level matches, the current meta weapons rely heavily on either crit builds or status chance builds, meaning the Gram is at a disadvantage.

Additionally the greatswords have some of the slowest movesets, so even apparently weaker weapons of other classes can sport a much higher DPS by hitting much more often.

There's more: many Stances have hidden damage multipliers (which you have to check on the wiki since they are not shown in the game iirc). For instance, if you equip the rare Crimson Dervish on a sword, each swing of the normal combo (EEE) inflicts an additional 200% damage, meaning that a puny sword with the correct Stance can inflict serious damage. Then again, Crimson Dervish is slow, but normally not as slow as a greatsword stance.

 

The truth is that the system is very deep, complicated, and unexplained in the game. It might look powerful on paper, but most of us find ourselves outgrowing the Gram pretty fast :)

[Redwoodlynx]

Thanks for all the feedback guys- So basically I learned don't take stats at face value- good to know. 

[Redwoodlynx]

2 hours ago, Dhrekr said:

Hi :)

The Skana is one of the weakest weapons out there. It's no Machete, but anything that has to be compared to the Machete to look good is bad.

The stats of weapons don't change with the level of the weapons. Only their mod space (meaning that you can equiip more mods at level 30, so the weapon is indirectly stronger).

No. The speed statistics is very, very misleading. It's not "actual hits per second" or something like that.

Melee weapons have movesets (you might already have discovered Stances - each Stance has its own moveset), and in movesets each move has its own animation speed. The speed statistics of a weapon is "how much it speeds up the animation".

So (and I'm going to invent the numbers), for instance, a sword moveset's first stab has an animation of 0.6sec before it connects. A Greatword moveset's first slice has an animation time of 1.2 sec before it connects. If a specific sword has a speed of 0.8, then the first stab requires 0.75s; and let's compare it with a Greatsword of speed 1.2, which takes 1.2sec to hit.

You see, in this (admittedly invented) example, the sword is still faster than the greatsword even though the sword's speed is 0.8 and the greatsword's is 1.2. Don't know the actual numbers, but... yeah. The speed number makes sense only comparing a sword to another sword (as the moveset is the same).

The Gram is not a terrible weapon, but it has low supplementary stats (critical values, status chance), which limit its effectiveness. For higher level matches, the current meta weapons rely heavily on either crit builds or status chance builds, meaning the Gram is at a disadvantage.

Additionally the greatswords have some of the slowest movesets, so even apparently weaker weapons of other classes can sport a much higher DPS by hitting much more often.

There's more: many Stances have hidden damage multipliers (which you have to check on the wiki since they are not shown in the game iirc). For instance, if you equip the rare Crimson Dervish on a sword, each swing of the normal combo (EEE) inflicts an additional 200% damage, meaning that a puny sword with the correct Stance can inflict serious damage. Then again, Crimson Dervish is slow, but normally not as slow as a greatsword stance.

 

The truth is that the system is very deep, complicated, and unexplained in the game. It might look powerful on paper, but most of us find ourselves outgrowing the Gram pretty fast :)

Thank you, this was hugely clarifying.