Archwing Launcher is prohibitively expensive

[Vomitous]

4 minutes ago, Carnage2K4 said:

... isn't the point of building up resources to use them when something new comes a long you need?

Somewhere out there someone knows a magic ratio of 'stuff you don't want to do' to enable 'stuff you do want to do' in terms of games. 150 Fish oil far exceeds whatever the magic ratio is.

Forcing high participation in an experimental, unproven game mode that's completely outside of what players loading a 'space ninja' game might expect to be spending their time on just to enable what should be core gameplay is weird. If we were talking about a couple thousand ferrite and salvage(which many people have large stockpiles of, or new players can more easily earn) to buy 50 charges then it'd be a different conversation.

[Scylax]

12 minutes ago, Carnage2K4 said:

... isn't the point of building up resources to use them when something new comes a long you need?

No. I put in work to earn resources for rewards -- not to access fundamental features of the game.

[DiabolusUrsus]

But the information about the second wait-wall is not there. People don't expect the segment purchase to grant charges. That's not the issue.

It's that a) the charges are not purchaseable, and b) the charges require resources that NOBODY has stockpiled.

Selling the segment a la carte is not the problem. Selling the segment as a skip for waiting without offering a way to bypass the second wait OR telling people that it exists is the problem.

I'm sure most people know that buying the segment does not grant charges. I'm also sure they wouldn't necessarily check for charge options first because

A) it should be common sense for it to be sold, and 

B) nobody would expect it to require a bunch of resources they don't have FOR A CONSUMABLE.

There is no way to preview the recipe, either. The information is not there.

[Dama73]

So let me get this straight we can summon our archwing at will in underwater maps yet we need to buy/craft a segmant then craft charges for its use in PoE... DE who the heck thought this was a good idea

[KeLaRo]

[double post]

 

Edit: suggestion for DE.

Use this list of resources, cause are more suitable for a real engineering of Archwing inside Earth atmosphere,temperature ,magnetic field and gravity:

1. for cool the Archwing ,that normaly works in a 0° kelvin ambient, we could use CRYOTIC (300)
2. for have more engine power for fly at 1g (9.81m/s2) we need a better fuel ,lets use the Grokdrul( 50 ) (ok as it is now,it is?)
3. for have a superior aereodynamic agility inside a place that is not the zero atmosphere of out space we can Add Nitain Extract (1) for improve surfaces.
4. finally for keep magnetic sensor calibrate at the values of Earth surface (Van Halen fields & background space radio waves are more dangerous, we can save this energy ,used for keep on shields, for antigravity jumpers needed) recalibration is done by 1200 Circuits (as it is now)

 

Edited October 13, 2017 by KeLaRo
double post,typo1200

[-Temp0-]

28 minutes ago, Rawbeard said:

first they came for the gypsies, but I was no gypsie, so I said nothing.

Air support charges require common trash. It's salvage, ferrite, morphics and only then some plastids. And "no one uses those" in that case means "no one NEEDS it because you can do every mission in existence without those". So comparison is pointless in the first place. If those requirements were for archwing beacons I wouldn't complain either. It's managable. Instead, you get completely new resource so even if you bought the segment you still ahve to grind like a slave and grind a lot because you need archwing in PoE. So yeah no. People comlain about different resources all the time. It doesn't change sht as we learned with Hema. Times and times again DE does what DE wants and what is profitable for them. 

[Rhekemi]

Why do I need to build Archwing charges? I already own an Archwing. There's absolutely no reason I should have to build charges to use equipment I already own.

I understand the grind reasons, they're just wrongheaded. If there is an in-story logic to it, I'd be happy to hear someone explain it (I won't be able to play PoE for a while longer). Unfortunately, it won't change my mind. 

Archwing charges/consumables and any crafting cost for something as crucial as fast travel (which I already own, took time to craft and farm) in an open-world environment is a terrible idea.

I'm reserving judgment on the rest of the update until I read more and can play it myself, but this specific feature strikes me as a very bad concept.

Edited October 13, 2017 by Rhekemi

[BoomyGordo]

17 minutes ago, -Temp0- said:

And "no one uses those" in that case means "no one NEEDS it because you can do every mission in existence without those". 

well no one needs arch wing because you can do everything in the plains without it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

i use liset air support regularly because its nice to have on spy or rescue sorties. also some times on regular missions when i just dont feel like running across a huge room to find a lockdown consol

[-Temp0-]

15 minutes ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

well no one needs arch wing because you can do everything in the plains without it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Speak for yourself. And no, that's once again completely false statement and comparison. Air support doesn't do anything for you unless you always fail your spy missions (and if you do well. that's you. most people do not need that doesn't matter if sortie, kuva or lua spy/rescue), in PoE you need to dedicate an entire warframe/build to being able to travel those 3000+m on average. No one has to. There should be a way to travel that is not your warframe. Unless you think that warframe in 2017 should be less of a game as rpg/mmo of 2000 year of release or some sht.

I tried to play there with Volt, Loki with sprint mods and Titania. Unless they will do something, anything with archwing beacons I won't play PoE at all. Because everything else feels so fckn slow and inconvenient to use I can't even. I'm not gonna sit and wait till Titania will fly her lazy slow a** there and not gonna break my fingers doing all the bullet jumps on such large maps and using warframes with sprint have more downsides than anything else. And coming from a number of threads about archwing charges, people who are 'fine' with things how they are now are in minority. So don't make it look like it is "fine" just because you're hooked up on using air support which is way more cheaper and needs completely different resources to craft and none of those are new too.

Edited October 13, 2017 by -Temp0-

[Desdemona-XI]

11 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

But the information about the second wait-wall is not there. People don't expect the segment purchase to grant charges. That's not the issue.

It's that a) the charges are not purchaseable, and b) the charges require resources that NOBODY has stockpiled.

Selling the segment a la carte is not the problem. Selling the segment as a skip for waiting without offering a way to bypass the second wait OR telling people that it exists is the problem.

I'm sure most people know that buying the segment does not grant charges. I'm also sure they wouldn't necessarily check for charge options first because

A) it should be common sense for it to be sold, and 

B) nobody would expect it to require a bunch of resources they don't have FOR A CONSUMABLE.

There is no way to preview the recipe, either. The information is not there.

Firstly. on both B points. What games have you been playing. whenever warframe or just about any other MMO releases a new system. Usually new resources are immediately used. Kuva is a prime example of this.  Kuva is used for crafting as well as for riven cycling and was not available prior to rivens being used. 

 

Secondly. as i recall. There is no way to preview air support charge's recipes either. but Noone cared then. and this is literally the same set up as the landing craft foundry upgrade. it was told what it would allow you to build but there was no real preview for ANY of the parts entailed  after the upgrade segement itself. not even for other landing craft because the blueprints couldnt be viewed without an upgraded foundry.

 

and air support charges are not purchasable either. so its fine then but not fine now because you didnt care about one and care about another? sorry but that excuse does not fly.

 

Now pretty much everyone agrees that charges on archwing beacons are a horrifically stupid idea in the first place. which i wholly agree on. I'm even fine with having to craft the beacon with fish oil IF the beacon worked like the Glyph Prism. which is Infinite charges. 

 

But you're whole argument here is based around how you feel screwed out of free charges that were never promised. because you keep coming back to that. that you have to use a new resource to craft a new thing.  and that's frankly a stupid central argument. because the fact is. every time they release a new resource there's a pile of stuff that comes either with it or immediately after requiring that resource. Nitain, Tellerium, Kuva. Synthula. the list goes on and on. that's how most games work and will work forever. 

 

Now fish oil i think is still stupid when there are unique metal elements to the plains that would make more sense. but i could deal with it if the device was permenant. because we know that archwing has no difficulty reaching you almost instantly when you jump into the water on sealab tilesets. but being able to call it at will on the plains would be difficult to do without a gear wheel device. so fine. for the sake of convenience of regular use, a summonable archwing device works.

 

Charges are flat out stupid however and to DE:

you need to fix that. people want to tag in and out of skywing easily. not waste a charge because they accidentally bumped E and have to sit and work out how much they can afford to use it in a run.

 

[Rhekemi]

7 hours ago, Goshawk3 said:

Careful being reasonable here or advocating patience. Neither seem to be popular concepts atm. Lol.

I'm one of the most patient and reasonable people you'll find around the forums. But sometimes people have reasons to be upset, especially as customers.

Try and keep that in mind: sometimes people are reasonably upset, DE is still a company, many of its playerbase are customers, and DE can handle the criticism as long as it's constructive. If it's bashing, then no, DE shouldn't have to deal with it.

The OP did not need to use all those obscenities and could have used a good minute to compose his thoughts into targeted criticism before posting. We can all always use extra time to better compose our responses.

EDIT: Two (or more) Archwing feedback threads have been merged, so I'm editing out my comment in this post that referenced/quoted my other comment (since it's now in the same thread).

Edited October 13, 2017 by Rhekemi

[Desdemona-XI]

31 minutes ago, Rhekemi said:

Why do I need to build Archwing charges? I already own an Archwing. There's absolutely no reason I should have to build charges to use equipment I already own.

I understand the grind reasons, they're just wrongheaded. If there is an in-story logic to it, I'd be happy to hear someone explain it (I won't be able to play PoE for a while longer). Unfortunately, it won't change my mind. 

Archwing charges/consumables and any crafting cost for something as crucial as fast travel (which I already own, took time to craft and farm) in an open-world environment is a terrible idea.

I'm reserving judgment on the rest of the update until I read more and can play it myself, but this specific feature strikes me as a very bad concept.

I completely agree. but then now is the time to make the appropriate feedback response. which is what this is about. so thank you for posting. and please do get more of your clanmates to add to this post. because it needs some serious backing if we are going to get anywhere with it. it needs backing and sensible arguments. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 minute ago, Desdemona-XI said:

Firstly. on both B points. What games have you been playing. whenever warframe or just about any other MMO releases a new system. Usually new resources are immediately used. Kuva is a prime example of this.  Kuva is used for crafting as well as for riven cycling and was not available prior to rivens being used. 

 

Secondly. as i recall. There is no way to preview air support charge's recipes either. but Noone cared then. and this is literally the same set up as the landing craft foundry upgrade. it was told what it would allow you to build but there was no real preview for ANY of the parts entailed  after the upgrade segement itself. not even for other landing craft because the blueprints couldnt be viewed without an upgraded foundry.

 

and air support charges are not purchasable either. so its fine then but not fine now because you didnt care about one and care about another? sorry but that excuse does not fly.

 

Now pretty much everyone agrees that charges on archwing beacons are a horrifically stupid idea in the first place. which i wholly agree on. I'm even fine with having to craft the beacon with fish oil IF the beacon worked like the Glyph Prism. which is Infinite charges. 

 

But you're whole argument here is based around how you feel screwed out of free charges that were never promised. because you keep coming back to that. that you have to use a new resource to craft a new thing.  and that's frankly a stupid central argument. because the fact is. every time they release a new resource there's a pile of stuff that comes either with it or immediately after requiring that resource. Nitain, Tellerium, Kuva. Synthula. the list goes on and on. that's how most games work and will work forever. 

 

Now fish oil i think is still stupid when there are unique metal elements to the plains that would make more sense. but i could deal with it if the device was permenant. because we know that archwing has no difficulty reaching you almost instantly when you jump into the water on sealab tilesets. but being able to call it at will on the plains would be difficult to do without a gear wheel device. so fine. for the sake of convenience of regular use, a summonable archwing device works.

 

Charges are flat out stupid however and to DE:

you need to fix that. people want to tag in and out of skywing easily. not waste a charge because they accidentally bumped E and have to sit and work out how much they can afford to use it in a run.

 

Word choice is key. We're not talking new weapons or Warframes here. We're talking CONSUMABLE ITEMS. Those things that normally take 60 seconds and a handful of common resources to craft. (The notable exception being Pherliac pods, because they were implemented as part of a quest wait-wall by design.)

Air support charges are not comparable because the game is not DESIGNED TO REQUIRE THEM. It is, and always was, an optional novelty. Such is not the case with bombing Ogmas and dropships in the equation.

Also bear in mind that I DID NOT buy the segment. I don't feel cheated. I'm not feeling self-conscious about getting swept up in the deliberately-generated hype and subsequently duped because I didn't research a GAME ITEM like it was a freakin' LOAN AGREEMENT.

It's fair to expect players to read the market description. It's not fair to make them hunt down the fine print while pressuring them into making the purchase and getting them anxious to try out all the neat new features.

I'm a staunch a supporter of the idea that people should be held accountable for for their own ignorance, but denying them basic information and stacking the deck against them like this is not okay.

[BoomyGordo]

1 minute ago, -Temp0- said:

And no, that's once again completely false statement and comparison.

its a completely valid comparison. just because you are too salty to run the distance doesnt mean you cant. i know you can because ive watched streamers doing it all night.

so you can, you have just chosen not to.

[Vomitous]

I don't know how many produced trailers there were highlighting how great Air Support Charges were in the new addon, or how for years Air Support was shoved down our throats as a game mode but poorly implemented and this addon was hyped as The Breakthrough that would make Air Support Charges finally worthwhile and great and fun to use, but somehow this comparison to Archwing feels a little funny to me.

[DiabolusUrsus]

5 minutes ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

its a completely valid comparison. just because you are too salty to run the distance doesnt mean you cant. i know you can because ive watched streamers doing it all night.

so you can, you have just chosen not to.

No, it's a crap comparison.

There are no enemies or mechanics designed to be specifically counterable by air support, and air support was never the subject of aggressive marketing campaigns.

There is absolutely nothing to pressure players into using air support beyond wanting to try it out. Not so for Archwing.

Your entire argument is stemming from your desire to feel superior by painting others as simply lazy. The plains are clearly designed to pressure players into wanting to use Archwing, and paying to skip the wait wall does not actually let you skip it. THAT is the problem here.

The players are not somehow at fault for wanting to use Archwing.

[Gravitus123]

2 hours ago, Toppien said:

i think you dont get this game is about grind...and the economy works fine, works better than any other f2p game out there cuz you can unlock anything that cost plat if you sell prime parts

There is a difference between enjoyable grinding and infuriating grinding.Doing a lvl 50-60 bounty for 20 mins and then getting a common mod or 50 endo is not enjoyable.Even the grind should have some limits

[Lord-Nezekan]

7 minutes ago, --Laughing-Soul-- said:

its a completely valid comparison. just because you are too salty to run the distance doesnt mean you cant. i know you can because ive watched streamers doing it all night.

so you can, you have just chosen not to.

The issue here is very simple people want to get what they pay for about the resources required for the new archwing beacon imo is really absurd in this other guys thread he said that we shouldn't be spending more time grinding fishing just so we can use something we already owned. That to me is a very good point and I share the same sentiment, I don't think you go out ofyour way to farm materials for airship support, that is the main difference that people are trying to point out with regards to crafting requirements.

[BoomyGordo]

4 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Your entire argument is stemming from your desire to feel superior by painting others as simply lazy. The plains are clearly designed to pressure players into wanting to use Archwing, and paying to skip the wait wall does not actually let you skip it. THAT is the problem here.

The players are not somehow at fault for wanting to use Archwing.

my argument is stemming from one player screaming at others that their arguments are invalid, and then using a flawed argument in return. i agree that the situation is bs, but its still a valid comparison based on the context in which it was made. 

2 minutes ago, Xeks69 said:

The issue here is very simple people want to get what they pay for about the resources required for the new archwing beacon imo is really absurd in this other guys thread he said that we shouldn't be spending more time grinding fishing just so we can use something we already owned. That to me is a very good point and I share the same sentiment, I don't think you go out ofyour way to farm materials for airship support, that is the main difference that people are trying to point out with regards to crafting requirements.

this i agree with

[Desdemona-XI]

1 minute ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Word choice is key. We're not talking new weapons or Warframes here. We're talking CONSUMABLE ITEMS. Those things that normally take 60 seconds and a handful of common resources to craft. (The notable exception being Pherliac pods, because they were implemented as part of a quest wait-wall by design.)

Air support charges are not comparable because the game is not DESIGNED TO REQUIRE THEM. It is, and always was, an optional novelty. Such is not the case with bombing Ogmas and dropships in the equation.

Also bear in mind that I DID NOT buy the segment. I don't feel cheated. I'm not feeling self-conscious about getting swept up in the deliberately-generated hype and subsequently duped because I didn't research a GAME ITEM like it was a freakin' LOAN AGREEMENT.

It's fair to expect players to read the market description. It's not fair to make them hunt down the fine print while pressuring them into making the purchase and getting them anxious to try out all the neat new features.

I'm a staunch a supporter of the idea that people should be held accountable for for their own ignorance, but denying them basic information and stacking the deck against them like this is not okay.

Firstly. Skywing is NOT required. plenty of footage clearly demonstrates being able to shoot enemies from the ground just as easily. and. Skywing Does NOT give archwing weapons! we have seen this in no fewer then three devstreams. it keeps your own damn weapons. does it make moving around more painful. Yes. is a charge-based system for this utter bull-dung. Absolutely. but then air support instantly disabling alarms even in high level missions without the need to even hunt out a console and locking alarms out is no less practical. or the med tower for that other ship. scimitar's bombard is pretty lame I concede but it still functions on the same base premise. and manufacturing say.. energy restores may not seem very expensive but they can siphon out a lot of your resources stupidly fast depending on your playstyle and how heavily you use them.

but the issue is NOT because of fish oil. not because of a lack of fine print. not because of anything other then that poor decision made by DE. to make them charge-based and expensive. Just because you think you have to get everything in plains in 10 minutes or less doesnt make it so. Warframe is full of rapid farming resources and then people ask for something long term. but when they get it they just whine that its so hard to get ahead.

 

There is no fine print because its not needed. every thing in the market that is comprised of more then one element specifies what it contains very specifically. right in the "buy screen." DE is under no more obligation to clarify that any further then they already do. people who make the assumption are not making it based on common sense at all. because while it would make sense for it to come preloaded with charges for that inflated platprice. it's also fully obvious that if it did it would say so very evidently. so therefore. The information required is supplied. would it be nice if they fixxed the sale page to clarify that further. absolutely. 

 

But that is NOT where you are taking this. you keep hammering them like they are somehow criminally negligent for not doing what is fairly obvious right from the get go in a game where large quantities of things require wiki trips to make it painfully clear that either this works or it does not.

 

And we know from experience that people who hammer DE with these slanderous terms you chuck around usually Do not get the problem addressed for a long damn time.

Sure. plains is big. and sure even with high mobility frames it'll take you a long time to get around. so what? that's exactly the point of the plains: to be big and open with stuff to explore.

I probably wont be using skywing much at all until they fix the issue with it's charges because i would rather make my way back to cetus slowly. with twice the resources along the way then skip around with skywing when I dont have to.

so what you are posting here is not constructive criticism. its overly negative. you basically insult the entire company for an error that is easily made. because it is an error born out of perspective. but then you make no offers for solutions. no contributary suggestions whatsoever. you just nitpick at them. and wonder why they dont feel like reading very far in the first post. 

 

Did DE make a mistake. Absolutely. is it a big mistake. moderately, its severely irritating but hardly gamebreaking. best solution to fix it? turn skywing beacons from charges into an infinite device. or lower crafting costs immensely and maybe slip a note on the segment description clarifying that for the logically challenged. simple.

[Xarteros]

3 hours ago, Goshawk3 said:

Here I was thinking that no one could possibly dislike POE. It's beyond amazing.

Aaaand then there's people like you. Sad days :(

Edit: Get why you're upset, just mindblown at the sheer negativity in general on feedback / other social media. Absolutely LOVING this update.

well, for one, they really punished people who used Zenurik or Naramon by giving their abilities huge Focus costs. 

Sorry to derail the topic, but Focus was our end-game system. It's meant to be our ultimate, final progression of playing. It's meant to be the last step to improving something when we've already got maxed-out mods and plenty of forma. Now it's almost entirely an operator thing, so the broken-yet-functional system we had got removed instead of fixed, and nothing got given to us in return. only two nodes in each tree now actually apply to your warframe.

The game is called Warframe, not Operator. we should have more advancement for end-game warframe content.

[Lord-Nezekan]

5 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

well, for one, they really punished people who used Zenurik or Naramon by giving their abilities huge Focus costs. 

Sorry to derail the topic, but Focus was our end-game system. It's meant to be our ultimate, final progression of playing. It's meant to be the last step to improving something when we've already got maxed-out mods and plenty of forma. Now it's almost entirely an operator thing, so the broken-yet-functional system we had got removed instead of fixed, and nothing got given to us in return. only two nodes in each tree now actually apply to your warframe.

The game is called Warframe, not Operator. we should have more advancement for end-game warframe content.

Yeah I agree the dumb fck operators should be a support role to wf being part of the wf not a totally different thing. Having mobs that can only be killed with operator participation is already bad this is even worst those mechanics should be reserved for bosses or raids not in normal skirmishes, also the old system is not really broken just need a little fix no regen for toggles, and the rest being almost neglectable insta revive isnt so bad and naramon it actually allows players to really push in endless surv or just to kill very high level enemies because if we considerthe infinite mob scaling wf builds will eventually saturate its effectiveness.

I think one of the problems in this game is the lack of balancing of mobs and ai they focus heavily with frames and our weapons, when in fact there are a bunch of things to improve and balance with the mobs themeselves.I think mobs doesn't need stat buffs or they should have limited scaling with level instead they scale with ai using tactics rather than just sheer force and numbers. Players will always keep finding to cheese their way to victory specially when weare surrounded by mobs that you can empty your clip with your fully modded gun and still not halved its hp.

[Desdemona-XI]

3 hours ago, Goshawk3 said:

Eyes are open, just apparently looking at a completely different game then you are.

Or I just realize it's day two. You people are rabid. It's kinda disgusting for what's seemed like a pretty positive community that seems to like DE quite a bit.

Day two of a patch and you're already talking about their entire reputation? Mmmkay lewl.

I couldnt agree more. it disgusts me too. after all skywing gives no advantage other then speed, mobility and archwing abilties that we all already know are often outmatched by warframe abilities. arch guns arent even brought out. 

 

and this is warframe there hasnt been a single update that wasnt followed by three to five days of bugfixes and fine tuning. needless agression is not going to solve your problems. in fact because people are getting so aggressive about it. I honestly hope they Don't refund people. DE is under no obligation to do anything for you in the first place. you paid for a segment. you got a segment. they never promised charges.

[Twelvelight]

FFS People.. How long have u played this for free? Get real.. ofc they need to get money somewhere, if u dont like it. Use Titiana.. -*- Ofc this would prob jock up some of your weekend warrior wannabee's ...

Edited October 13, 2017 by Twelvelight

[Desdemona-XI]

23 minutes ago, Xarteros said:

well, for one, they really punished people who used Zenurik or Naramon by giving their abilities huge Focus costs. 

Sorry to derail the topic, but Focus was our end-game system. It's meant to be our ultimate, final progression of playing. It's meant to be the last step to improving something when we've already got maxed-out mods and plenty of forma. Now it's almost entirely an operator thing, so the broken-yet-functional system we had got removed instead of fixed, and nothing got given to us in return. only two nodes in each tree now actually apply to your warframe.

The game is called Warframe, not Operator. we should have more advancement for end-game warframe content.

firstly I think Zenurik's changes are Fair and I am a zenurik user. because now focus abilties have no cooldown which is something you rabid morons are missing. I can start using my zenurik energy as soon as i drop into a mission. I dont have to deactivate abilities to get it out in 180 seconds. i can load it up to the brim and use it all in 10 seconds with the time taken for the landing animation. ofcourse abiltities you can only use once every five minutes will be powerful. but you want that power in the first second for free? who the heck are you kidding? 

 

Secondly warframes always have and always will have the point where they cant develop further. they are machines. potential is fixxed and limited. and as it is your rank 30 excalibur can shred level 150 bombards like butter. and you want the warframes to develop further? You my friend have an opness fetish and should go play Doom with god mode on or something.