Focus 2.0: Focus Exp = Not Fun

[Aleksi134]

You went through it congratz, no one forced you to do it, but yourself.

[Lluid]

il y a une heure, BlackVortex a dit :

I agree with most of what you say, but you still have no valid argument to say how its fair

Agreed, I made a mistake by saying it's fair. But what I meant is that it's not necessarily unfair either, if you consider each player's pleasure individually. Grind is fine for those who accept to grind, with even a bit of pride to reach "maximum effectiveness" like in the image you showed us, it's fine ! On the other hand, my own pleasure consists in playing a few missions on every planet, joining new players, helping them progress, but I rarely repeat something for a specific goal. For most of the content of the game it works just fine, but focus in particular would require 6 years of me playing the game, getting 20% of the daily cap. It's too much.

So it's like considering that we're not climbing the same mountain. We have a similar pleasure to reach the top, the same reward, but there's no reason to compare heights because we don't use the same method to climb. We're almost not playing the same game and it's "fair" if it's what we both want, after all.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Lluid

[Kalvorax]

2 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

for people complaining the focus gain is too low I only have this to show:

one extermination run on Sedna>Adaro with an affinity booster yielding 202.058 focus

and THIS is abusing a mechanic that SHOULD NOT NEED TO BE ABUSED to get the numbers you are getting....i SHOULDN'T have to do some crappy and boring stealth farm over and over (because only those who really know what they are doing can get perfect runs like you say you do) to get the focus i need per day. I would much rather run what i enjoy doing and get my focus that way, than doing a stealth ext which i will find boring (ive tried it....it IS boring) if i was doing it day in and day out.

[BlackVortex]

30 minutes ago, Kalvorax said:

and THIS is abusing a mechanic that SHOULD NOT NEED TO BE ABUSED to get the numbers you are getting....i SHOULDN'T have to do some crappy and boring stealth farm over and over (because only those who really know what they are doing can get perfect runs like you say you do) to get the focus i need per day. I would much rather run what i enjoy doing and get my focus that way, than doing a stealth ext which i will find boring (ive tried it....it IS boring) if i was doing it day in and day out.

true and I agree, but I had to put up with it for 2 years, so why should you get to do any less work than I had to do?

[BlackVortex]

1 hour ago, Lluid said:

Agreed, I made a mistake by saying it's fair. But what I meant is that it's not necessarily unfair either, if you consider each player's pleasure individually. Grind is fine for those who accept to grind, with even a bit of pride to reach "maximum effectiveness" like in the image you showed us, it's fine ! On the other hand, my own pleasure consists in playing a few missions on every planet, joining new players, helping them progress, but I rarely repeat something for a specific goal. For most of the content of the game it works just fine, but focus in particular would require 6 years of me playing the game, getting 20% of the daily cap. It's too much.

So it's like considering that we're not climbing the same mountain. We have a similar pleasure to reach the top, the same reward, but there's no reason to compare heights because we don't use the same method to climb. We're almost not playing the same game and it's "fair" if it's what we both want, after all.

they should never have implemented a cap and they should never have implemented the orbs, but they did

for the people who did go through all the effort, it would be unfair to remove it now and fix the problem after 2 years

not saying it wouldnt be an improvement to the system,

but for me and others like me it would be too little too late

Edited January 16, 2018 by BlackVortex

[BlackVortex]

1 hour ago, Aleksi134 said:

You went through it congratz, no one forced you to do it, but yourself.

true, I did force myself to do it, so if you want to max out your focus, you can go through it as well

no reason for DE to change the rules now just for your benefit

[Kinetos]

It's not just for him

[Thrymm]

3 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

it's like you play an mmorpg, you take 2 years to get to level 100 playing every day for 8-10 hours. Then when you finish, they release a quest that instantly makes any character jump from any level to level 100. It's just unfair.

Is the current system a suffering? It is if you want to max everything out in one day.

it takes long to complete everything yes, but there is no hardcap anymore on how much focus you can farm in a day.

I can reach my focus cap(250K) in 2-3 extermination missions without an exp booster. And I non stop farmed the Teralyst to get another 2-3KK focus a day.

I do agree its a pain that you need to do the focus grind every day and you cant skip a day or you will practically have lost the opportunity. For that I would say, add a focus ticket(250K) in the game, that if you played enough on a day, you get to earn that ticket.

With that ticket you get a one time increase of the amount of focus you can gain, so you can also save up those tickets to do it all in one day.

This way you will not be able to go faster than 250K a day, but you will be able to get that focus on any day you desire.

for people who don't like the cap, just spam Teralyst like I did.

for people complaining the focus gain is too low I only have this to show:

one extermination run on Sedna>Adaro with an affinity booster yielding 202.058 focus

Thank you for showing that, it only illuminates the problem, rather than the solution.  Mouth breathing, drooling grinding on a stealth exterminate is how you get the focus.  You do THIS exact thing, every time, in order to get it.  Want to be the "tank" tree?  Stealth exterminate.  Want to be the "energy" tree?  Stealth exterminate.  Want to be the healing tree?  Stealth exterminate.  You get the idea.

As far as the "unfair cuz I did it when it sucked argument".....yeah.  Lots of us have been around all along.  That doesn't unsuck the system.  Systems that suck are bad game design, and perpetuating them doesn't suddenly make it good game design.  As the old saying goes, "It's never too late to do the right thing".

Focus acquisition completely misses its intended mark.  The goal was for a player to gain this when using their maxed equipment that they prefer and have a progression path above rank 30.  The end result is.....stealth exterminate.  This isn't a new problem, it's been like this all along.  If you want focus numbers, you chain stealth kills.  It's not at all unique to focus 2.0

And therein lies the exact problem.  Clearly, folks believe the rate of acquisition while stealthed is at least acceptable, perhaps even good.  By comparison to what the stealth exterminate against trivial opponents gains, todays sorties netted me a total of about 15k focus---ALL THREE SORTIES, with a booster active.  If I'd done the exterminates as stealth runs, I'd have capped on either the first or early in the second one.

Which means players are left with a choice.  Not a good, game improving choice, mind, but a choice just the same.  They can either play with their favorite frames(as was the original intention for focus acquisition) and gain progression at a snails pace or follow the predefined route of stealth frame, stealth mission.  Or sit around and spam grenades into a vortex on an endless, I suppose that technically works too..

[BlackVortex]

5 minutes ago, Thrymm said:

Thank you for showing that, it only illuminates the problem, rather than the solution.  Mouth breathing, drooling grinding on a stealth exterminate is how you get the focus.  You do THIS exact thing, every time, in order to get it.  Want to be the "tank" tree?  Stealth exterminate.  Want to be the "energy" tree?  Stealth exterminate.  Want to be the healing tree?  Stealth exterminate.  You get the idea.

As far as the "unfair cuz I did it when it sucked argument".....yeah.  Lots of us have been around all along.  That doesn't unsuck the system.  Systems that suck are bad game design, and perpetuating them doesn't suddenly make it good game design.  As the old saying goes, "It's never too late to do the right thing".

Focus acquisition completely misses its intended mark.  The goal was for a player to gain this when using their maxed equipment that they prefer and have a progression path above rank 30.  The end result is.....stealth exterminate.  This isn't a new problem, it's been like this all along.  If you want focus numbers, you chain stealth kills.  It's not at all unique to focus 2.0

And therein lies the exact problem.  Clearly, folks believe the rate of acquisition while stealthed is at least acceptable, perhaps even good.  By comparison to what the stealth exterminate against trivial opponents gains, todays sorties netted me a total of about 15k focus---ALL THREE SORTIES, with a booster active.  If I'd done the exterminates as stealth runs, I'd have capped on either the first or early in the second one.

Which means players are left with a choice.  Not a good, game improving choice, mind, but a choice just the same.  They can either play with their favorite frames(as was the original intention for focus acquisition) and gain progression at a snails pace or follow the predefined route of stealth frame, stealth mission.  Or sit around and spam grenades into a vortex on an endless, I suppose that technically works too..

I never said the focus system was a good system

just said that it would be unfair for the people who have had to deal with this system for two years, if now it gets changed it so that it gets easier and more fun to do so

if you want focus, deal with the current system like all of us had to

if you dont like the current system, no one is forcing you to play

Edited January 16, 2018 by BlackVortex

[Thrymm]

16 minutes ago, BlackVortex said:

I never said the focus system was a good system

just said that it would be unfair for the people who have had to deal with this system for two years, if now it gets changed it so that it gets easier and more fun to do so

if you want focus, deal with the current system like all of us had to

if you dont like the current system, no one is forcing you to play

That's also the point, nobody forces anybody to play(seriously, that's dumb).  A bad system is a great way to have folks not play.  What with this being a game and all, that's a bad thing, and thing I've mentioned in other topics when that.....logic..... gets brought up----this is entertainment software, if the best counterpoint you've got is "then don't play", you're not exactly in a compelling spot because the entire design, entire business around it, and entire concept of EVERYTHING centers around playing the game.  The entire concept of feedback is to improve that play experience, not suggest that items that hinder it be implemented or retained.

There is nothing unfair about game improvements.  That's foolishness, but the exact same nonsensical argument applies there, too.

Nobody forced you to play when it was bad, the same as nobody forces anyone else to play now.  You've had it earlier and used its benefits longer, if it where to change tomorrow you've already enjoyed the advantages gained by being an early adopter.

Making something better isn't unfair to anyone because everyone would get to use a new and improved system, where it to exist.  Capped it in a way you didn't enjoy already?  Why?  Why would you play entertainment software you didn't enjoy?  Why did you use a system you didn't think was good?  If you feel it wasn't good, or enjoyable, why would you really want others to have to do it?

These, in my opinion, are a question people should really ask themselves when they cry no-fairsies because others aren't interested in taking part in their "suffering".  I've done plenty of things in this world because I had to, not because I enjoyed them.  I don't wish that on other people, that would be selfish asshattery on my part.

There are plenty of examples in game now.  Items and mods on Bar'Kiteer that we got in an event, Items attainable through invasions, plat cost reduction sales in the market, weapons with buffs, frames with refinements, playtime when credits or drops where more rare......plenty of us have played through all of that.  Is it "unfair" that someone else gets a shot at this stuff, in a better, more even way than we did?  I don't think so, for my own part I don't see things like status mods on Baro and say to myself "they shouldn't get that, I had to do an event three years ago for it", for example.

[Don_T_Shoot]

I think Thrymm pretty much slayed the "it's not fair dragon" pretty thoroughly.  So can we get back to praising the heck out of Ceryk's original post? 

As a long time vet this Focus situation is bumming me out.  I have friends playing this game for as long as I have,  and some that just started, and they all have the same issues with focus.  It's not a veteran or newbie issue.  It's an issue for anyone playing this game and it flat out sucks.

I finally gave in and tried to actually farm it and that Sleepquinox method is the exact opposite of how I want to play. It made me hate logging in.  I switched to a similar but less effective method that is at least slightly fun (Savage Silence Banshee spinning to win stupidity).  But it still isn't playing Warframe, it is mechanically and mindlessly farming when Focus was supposed to let me gain something with my favorite maxxed equipment while I play.   I don't main, I have favorites that shift around every few months and rarely are they the frames and weapons that fit the farming meta.

In that regard (among many others) Focus has totally failed and is a festering tumor that will kill this game if not treated.

[BlackVortex]

21 minutes ago, Don_T_Shoot said:

I think Thrymm pretty much slayed the "it's not fair dragon" pretty thoroughly. 

well that is your opinion

how would you think founders would react if DE started to put Excalibur Prime, Lato Prime and Skana Prime in relics

they had to do A to get them, would it be fair for the rest of the people to get to do B to obtain them?

[Don_T_Shoot]

Nice attempt at a "Trump-style" whataboutism there. Those two situations are not the same thing.  Let's try to help DE make the game better shall we? 

The Founders situation is in an writing agreement (well, digital writing).  Your self-imposed farming martyr status was invented in your head. 

 

[(XBOX)coll9502]

Idk if others feel this way but I thought it would be like this: you equip a focus lens and all the xp you gain in that mission is divided up according to the conversion rate on the lens, so if the lens has a 1.25% conversion rate then 1.25% of the xp you earned on that one mission is turned into focus. When I finally completed the war within after my hiatus I was disappointed finding out its not like that, biggest reason being is that it makes it a huge chore and doesnt feel like earning it is a natural part of the game.

Edited January 16, 2018 by (XB1)coll9502

[Kalvorax]

31 minutes ago, (Xbox One)coll9502 said:

Idk if others feel this way but I thought it would be like this: you equip a focus lens and all the xp you gain in that mission is divided up according to the conversion rate on the lens, so if the lens has a 1.25% conversion rate then 1.25% of the xp you earned on that one mission is turned into focus. When I finally completed the war within after my hiatus I was disappointed finding out its not like that, biggest reason being is that it makes it a huge chore and doesnt feel like earning it is a natural part of the game.

Yeah. Makes me wish we could just choose a school that we want to "focus" on and ALL xp would be converted at X% depending on how close we are to the cap (not sure if its a soft cap yet as they were discussing a month or so ago). Of course this would be for any maxed gear. No need for this lens stuff (which was fine until we got these hard to grind, rng loving eidelon lenses). Yes, it would mean not being able to spread it out among schools...but that is so inefficient it scares me at how often i see people doing something like that.

ie. we have an active school for what we want to use in mission, and a school (whether its the active one also or a different one) that we focus our excess affinity into.

Edited January 16, 2018 by Kalvorax

[Loswaith]

6 hours ago, BlackVortex said:

how would you think founders would react if DE started to put Excalibur Prime, Lato Prime and Skana Prime in relics

Well, as a founder I'd be fine with that.  Especially because it would stop all the 'he has, she has' stuff which overall is better for the game as a whole.  I do however understand why DE wont be doing that.

However you could look at prime access as the exact same thing.  All prime access have actually contained more stuff than the founders packs did, without the risk the game may not go anywhere.  So not only did everyone get the same option they got a better one as well.

At the end of the day it is not about what is good for you or good for me, but what is better for the game on the whole.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Loswaith

[Lluid]

Hey guys, I'm sorry to repeat myself but I'd really like to know what you'd think of what I proposed earlier :

Révélation

What do you guys think of a system where focus gains would be 10x higher than now, but with a decreasing efficiency for each warframe/weapon ?

It would be balanced so that it would take the same total affinity as now to reach the daily focus limit with one warframe+weapon, but would be much faster if you're using a variety of warframes and weapons.

Example of how it could be calculated (be prepared for complex sentences) : With n an integer, after reaching a nth of the total focus at a 10*r rate (r is the current rate), the rate of the focus gains for one lens would be reduced to
r * (n-1)/(n-1/10)

Numeric example: for n=4 and one single lens, you'd get one forth of your daily focus gains at 10x rate, then it would be reduced to 77% of the current rate if you stick with the same lens, reaching the daily cap in the same amount of total affinity. But if you switch the warframe/weapon between missions 4 times, you'll reach the total 10x faster.

A more reasonable example would be n=16, meaning you'd need 4 complete sets of {warframe + 3weapons} equipped with lenses to reach the cap 10x faster than now, while with only 1 complete set it would be reduced to 90% after a 16th of the daily cap for each weapon, reaching to daily cap as slowly as just slightly faster than now in total.

I think it would encourage equipping lenses on a variety of gear and actually using various weapons equally.

[BlackVortex]

1 hour ago, Lluid said:

Hey guys, I'm sorry to repeat myself but I'd really like to know what you'd think of what I proposed earlier :

  Reveal hidden contents

What do you guys think of a system where focus gains would be 10x higher than now, but with a decreasing efficiency for each warframe/weapon ?

It would be balanced so that it would take the same total affinity as now to reach the daily focus limit with one warframe+weapon, but would be much faster if you're using a variety of warframes and weapons.

Example of how it could be calculated (be prepared for complex sentences) : With n an integer, after reaching a nth of the total focus at a 10*r rate (r is the current rate), the rate of the focus gains for one lens would be reduced to
r * (n-1)/(n-1/10)

Numeric example: for n=4 and one single lens, you'd get one forth of your daily focus gains at 10x rate, then it would be reduced to 77% of the current rate if you stick with the same lens, reaching the daily cap in the same amount of total affinity. But if you switch the warframe/weapon between missions 4 times, you'll reach the total 10x faster.

A more reasonable example would be n=16, meaning you'd need 4 complete sets of {warframe + 3weapons} equipped with lenses to reach the cap 10x faster than now, while with only 1 complete set it would be reduced to 90% after a 16th of the daily cap for each weapon, reaching to daily cap as slowly as just slightly faster than now in total.

I think it would encourage equipping lenses on a variety of gear and actually using various weapons equally.

that should not be goal itself imo

forcing people to use certain weapons is a bad thing, the rivens have sort of tried to balance out weapons by giving certain weapons the ability to get better stats so they would be usable, without making the other weapons "unusable"

what you are proposing would basically make weapons "unusable" forcing players to play with other weapons they might not like

[Lluid]

il y a 40 minutes, BlackVortex a dit :

forcing people to use certain weapons is a bad thing

But isn't the current focus system worse in that regard, since only two lenses are required, especially only one on 1 weapon, to reach maximum focus gains ? I'm not incentivized to use a variety of weapons at all when one is enough. It "forces" me to use only one weapon

Additionally, you're the one who's fine with the current system, yet you'd say a weapon would be "unusable" if it took the same amount of affinity as now to reach the focus cap ?

I'm starting to think you're playing devil's advocate here, maybe to challenge our ability to find arguments. If you're not, please don't feel insulted, we managed to avoid falling in that trap so far.