"no Minimap" Condition On Nightmare Mode Needs Reconsideration

[Barnago]

I just completed a raid mission with no minimap and it simply does not work.

 

The fundamental problem is that Warframe is a game built on tilesets-- these are pre-arranged rooms that are randomly snapped together like Lego pieces in order to create a novel map when you jumble the order they connect together. Everyone who's played the game for any amount of time recognizes these rooms over and over again. It's great for generating randomness while still keeping the game looking good, but the specificity of the environment design there makes it unmistakable that you're encountering the same rooms over and over again.

 

This becomes a humongous problem when you take away the minimap and guidance waypoints. In games with handbuilt environments, where the entire level beginning to end has been designed with clear vision by a human being, not having a minimap or waypoint is okay, because the author is using the language of level design to guide the player through the environment. When the level is a procedurally constructed labyrinth of repeated boxes and connectors, with frequent dead ends and repeated elements seemingly placed completely arbitrarily, things fall apart. You get disoriented. You go in circles. You go off on sections of the map that were generated but are not actually part of the critical path. You enter a big room with many connections have absolutely no idea which one is the right one. The only way to tell where you've been is whether containers are broken or not, and that stops being reliable once you get to the extraction stage and now you have to backtrack through a level where the breadcrumbs lead you literally everywhere. It certainly is a Nightmare.

 

Taking away the minimap isn't completely without merit-- it is actually a little bit more tense and slows the pace of the game down in a positive way when you don't know your destination, in a way that I felt was very reminiscent of Left 4 Dead (it was an Infested map, that helped I'm sure). The mission I did was however a RAID map, which means our goal was to find a specific room in the level, which was as time consuming and obnoxious as you can imagine it was. The extraction segment was even more tedious.

 

My conclusion is that I think the "No Map" mutator is interesting, but it needs to be pulled way back and applied more thoughtfully. A specific mission type, or a portion of a mission, where you have no map and have to stick together for fear of being separated from your team, with only a vague direction of where to go might be worth pursuing, but the ramifications need to be thought through more carefully given how vastly different this is from the normal pace and style of play in Warframe. In particular, it needs to be implemented in such a way that the player doesn't feel like the only way to win is to methodically traipse down every single hallway and corridor with a green light in a rote process of elimination to discover where they need to go.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Barnago

[Lensman]

I actually LIKE the no-Minimap mode.

 

However I feel it should be implemented without any other nightmare modes and only ONE objective.

 

As No-Minimap + timer = stressful and no fun. And there's also a problem with multi part missions (data terminals and then artifact for example) where once you accidentally "find" the secondary objective (due to no map and wandering) the objectives get screwed up and you cannot complete the mission :(

[Barnago]

I definitely agree that there are some positive aspects of the mutator, but as you said, there are too many situations where it just breaks things down in a completely un-fun way for it to be something that can be slapped in recklessly. Mutators like low-gravity or no shields or vampire are low-impact enough that they can fit into just about anything and work well, but no-minimap is by comparison a humongous disruption of normal play and as such it needs to be handled with more care, and it needs design considerations to work around it.

[Endorphinz]

I think all the new penalties need to be looked at!

[PaperAlien]

Definitely needs fixing. Waypoints are absolutely essential to the gameplay of this game.

[RealityMachina]

 

Taking away the minimap isn't completely without merit-- it is actually a little bit more tense and slows the pace of the game down in a positive way when you don't know your destination, in a way that I felt was very reminiscent of Left 4 Dead (it was an Infested map, that helped I'm sure).

A game about badass space ninjas feeling like a game about four (relatively) ordinary people caught in the middle of a zombie apocalypse is not a good thing.

Edited July 27, 2013 by RealityMachina

[Barnago]

Which is why I am only advocating that the mode is an interesting change of pace to use as a special mission type, or part of a mission. It is at least worth investigating and trying to refine it.

 

I love the "we are space ninjas, ride the lightning, run on ceilings and blitz the world" frenetic pace of Warframe, but there is nothing wrong with having some small subset of missions be a little different. Defense maps don't really fit in much with the typical mobile nature of the game and they are some of the most popular ones.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Barnago

[MJ12]

Which is why I am only advocating that the mode is an interesting change of pace to use as a special mission type, or part of a mission. It is at least worth investigating and trying to refine it.

 

I love the "we are space ninjas, ride the lightning, run on ceilings and blitz the world" frenetic pace of Warframe, but there is nothing wrong with having some small subset of missions be a little different. Defense maps don't really fit in much with the typical mobile nature of the game and they are some of the most popular ones.

 

There actually is a huge problem, in that the game isn't designed for it. No-minimap needs to go, it's a terrible idea.

 

Also, defense maps are the most popular because they've got the most worthwhile rewards.

[litlit]

Here's what I do when I see that I don't have a minimap: I immediately abort and restart the mission. It's tedious, frustrating, and time-consuming. Get rid of it.

[JHarlequin]

I got one with the no minimap, and it wasn't too much trouble, but considering how many players get lost when they do have the mini-map, this mutator certainly can be kind of troublesome.

 

 It definitely can't get paired up with a few of the other mutator's.  Certainly not with either of the time limitations, it wouldn't just be the pressure but just how it will probably end up stopping most of the missions with the bad combination.

 

 There is probably an alternative that might be slightly better.  Maybe limited map where it won't have the waypoint and only shows you the room you are in and has it color coded based on if you have been there before.  Maybe no minimap and only show the waypoint for one second during every ten seconds.

 

 No minimap isn't a bad mutator, but it is definitely going to confuse a lot of players.  Still need to make sure to get the names and descriptions of active mutators up.  People are getting pretty surprised by the recent additions.  No minimap and no shields have both had people wondering if they were bugged.

[DeathByTeaCup]

okay the no mini map is just $&*&*#(%&.. i think everyone should agree to that.. and if u think they should still have no mini map. do the same mission with no minimap 5 times in a row.. timer or not.. its annoying as hell. and if u still disagree then tell me HOW the lack of mini-map makes it harder.. and how it does not piss people off..

[Lumdalumlum]

Lost space ninjas are LOST. 

[Tetsmeha]

I tried one, quit, did something else.

 

It's not fun or challenging.

[tommyrt]

What if you had a fog of war mini map instead. The objective you still need to seek out, however if the extraction point or some POI is within explored boundaries it shows

[BenHoliday]

Here's what I do when I see that I don't have a minimap: I immediately abort and restart the mission. It's tedious, frustrating, and time-consuming. Get rid of it.

 

This, I did a nightmare mode mission with this "feature" and it took us more than 15m to find the boss, and then at least another 15 minutes (during which one person quit, and another died 3 times before quitting b/c shields were disabled) before we could find the extraction. I will absolutely never be doing a nightmare mission without the mini-map in its current state.

 

That being said, it could be an interesting feature on its own merits, and it could perhaps be worked into Void missions (since they seem to be fairly linear except for secret rooms it should be less of an issue.) Or the mini-map could be disabled, but have the mission objective marked like a way point (i.e. visible from any distance and leading you to the room closest to the objective,) though that would perhaps not be much of a challenge.

 

But for now, no-mini-map missions are the equivalent of finding ice hazard levels in Mercury when you just started out: you'll complete more missions per time and die a lot less if you just quit and start a new mission.

 

[SparrowAdvice]

It's complete garbage. It doesn't make the level harder, it's just a needless waste of time that punishes you for not memorizing the already-abysmal labyrinthine levels.

[Keltik0ne]

The OP makes several great points, the main being that this mode is a rather joyless experience, not so much hard as annoying.

[Mak_Gohae]

I've only seen it once and for some reason we found our way to Vay Hek and out without any problems.

So i was paying attention to see if this map is unique in that it doesnt have a bunch of different branches but mostly a straight path to the objective and the exit. Next time anyone gets they need to check this out to see because if the map is mostly straight there shouldn't be any serious problems. 

 

The one thing that is a problem is that i didnt see the Extract Timer pop up when we got to the the Extract Point..... which means if we get a reactor mission and a timer gets set off we might not be able to see it so no one will know, we wont know that we need to rush to the end and will probably fail.

[NoeleVeerod]

I used to play without minimap before Nightmare Mode even existed - just deactivate the HUD from the Options and you have created yourself a challenge worth a good half hour of your time (and laughs).

It's not that bad at all, if you can orientate yourself.

 

But maybe avoiding pairing it with some other penalties would be better. I can imagine not having a map AND losing health AND losing energy... pretty hardcore.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Vintovka

[shinydunsparce]

DE doesn't know the difference between annoying and challenging. Just look at 80% of the grineer enimies. They think constant knockdowns is good game design and that bullet sponges are difficult. So of course they would think that no mimimap in an rng map is a good idea.

[Zephro]

I concur. The rest of the NM mutators (no Shield, rapidly degenerating Energy, Vamp, Timer) I have no problem with, but with the No Minimap mutator I just abort the mission because it's just going to be me wasting my time running around in circles.

The last straw was me doing a Mining Vehicle sabotage mission and not knowing how many Vehicles I have to sabotage, on top of the non-existent minimap.

Perhaps this particular mutator can be tweaked, but in it's current state it only serves to infuriate and waste my time.

[Dwevan]

I agree, out of all of the missions, no minimap is the worst, followed closely by no shields (should have reduced shield regen or something.. no shields is just dumb, especially if your build/warframe relies on them)

[Tacgnomancer]

maybe make consoles(hackable) in rooms give u a hint(temp mini map back for 5-10secs which then blacks out again) to where u need to go.

 

would still be a pain in the &#!, but doable

Edited July 28, 2013 by Tacgnomancer

[Tsukinoki]

I wouldnt mind the no-minimap, as long as I had an objective thing.

Otherwise your doing a spy mission, or a asteroid sabotage,  with no idea how many you have hack/destroy.  And on a defense mission?  You cant tell how many waves are left or the current state of the cryo-pod.  And while its not so bad in defense, good luck finding the last infested crawler stuck on a container somewhere...

[JHarlequin]

 The ships usually aren't too complicated and most players should be able to find their way.  Most players won't try though.  I know that of the few times I have had the glitched mini-map icon, I found my way.  Of several times when the rooms overlapped and confused the waypoint marker, I was the one to lead the way.  In general, there are really only 2 directions to go, so you will find your way if you can remember what just a few rooms looked like in order and make sure not to go back through those unless there is nowhere else to go.  It isn't that difficult, but it is less then most people want to try.

 

 As for the issues of most of the nightmare modes and people's builds.  Currently the nightmare modes are completely random.  The intent is that once a nightmare appears on a planet it won't change even if you run it five times in a row.  The first time you would figure out what the mutators are and then after that you can prep your build and get through just fine.  Which implies that people are going to happily fail the first run and rerun the mission.

 

 This concept was mentoined by Steve during the last livestream on twitch, and it wasn't clear if he meant just during that specific nightmare session, or for any time a nightmare session appears on a specific mission location.  He did also mention the way the team liked someones post about the preparation for a nightmare mission, how something would randomize and reveal what mutators would be applied.  But since each mission won't be random it wouldn't work.  He did say they might try to incorporate the concept of showing the players what mutators are applied, so people might get the chance to prepare before entering nightmare missions at some point.

Edited July 28, 2013 by JHarlequin