Master Rank Trials - unnecessary and unfriendly towards disabled people

[VonDrei]

I started this same topic in steam.. lol.

[SenariousNex]

3 hours ago, MJ12 said:

Yes you are......

......t creates a difficulty spike.

okay, lets start over.

Premises:

- Since it is online mmo, we have to all play by the same rules.

- Difficulty is what is needed to make warframe fun, at least for anyone I know. If it is made too easy to appeal to people who cannot complete the challenges for one reason or another, veteran/"hardcore"/"good" players will find the game to be just a boring monotonous grind just like it was in "press-4-to-win days." 

Problem:

- There are players who cannot complete challenges required to progess (MR Rankups, Planet Junctions, Few major quest mechanics)

Solution: 

- Restructure control schemes to ameliorate possible handicaps without affecting core challenge and gameplay.

 

I am certain if you can use 1 hand freely, you can a mouse with a ton of buttons and macros that will allow you to play the game exclusively with 1 hand.

If you have any better solutions that will solve the problem without violating my premises I will support it.

 

[ScytheG]

The practice room could do with a reset mechanic, and stop kicking you out once you fail, and then send you to the entrance of the relay itself.

I'm trying to practice running, not navigating the fast travel menu.

Also do you have to mod specifically for test 11, standard double jump consistently misses the platform height. As amusing as that is, does anyone mod for jump height in normal gameplay? I can sort of understand sprint speed and all.

Found another annoyance, when trying to get to my current mastery test, if you interact with any already passed tests you are immediately sent into it rather than being asked if you're at the right terminal.

Is all this supposed to make me question why I have this game installed?

And get rid of the ship docking/landing cutscenes. It's the sometimes unskipable crap no one cares about but in an online game, who's idea was that?

Edited October 26, 2017 by ScytheG

[AriesGreyscale]

Heck, I'm still pissed that some of the rank tests for middling ranks (I'm looking at you 13) don't involve any actual skill.
13 is quite literally "kill all of these A******s" in groups of two and three. (by comparison, 9 was this plus parkouring off of dissapearing platforms. Or was that 8? it's been a while)

Most of the "kill things" tests need to be the lowest rank tests, while the most-complained about "parkour" tests need to be higher up. (and the ones that don't catch constant complaints can sit in-between the two.)


And, like others have said, talking with the devs or support about it might get a waiver. (the worst it could do is them saying "no")

[AriesGreyscale]

3 hours ago, ScytheG said:

Also do you have to mod specifically for test 11, standard double jump consistently misses the platform height. As amusing as that is, does anyone mod for jump height in normal gameplay? I can sort of understand sprint speed and all.

Ah, If that's the one I think it is, you're meant to do a Crouch-Jump. (or, as most of the community calls it, a "bullet-jump")
Literally Crouch, and press Jump while holding crouch.  Once you're airborne, try and land it on the platform. EDIT: or jump again, it's been a while since I've one that one, and I've never gone back to do it again)

I had to re-do that test a few times before I got it right, and the timing can screw you.

 

As for modding jump height in normal gameplay?
Yeah, normally by side-effect.
Several of the "parkour" mods add to bullet-jump, along with the often more important Aim-glide and wall-latch time. (and the good ones deal damage too!

Edited October 26, 2017 by AriesGreyscale
additional information

[(PSN)Voidskar]

9 hours ago, (Xbox One)Zweimander said:

I essentially play on par with the best of them with one fully functioning thumb So I am disabled in a way but I found a way to make it seem like I'm not disabled in any way. Who's to say other disabled people couldn't do the same? I think those that want an easy way around the mastery tests and or complain about them need to possibly work around disabilities and or practice the tests more. I mean if one is capable of playing in the first place a simple MR test should be completely possible, me being a prime example after having there thumb practically cut off.

Just because you can adapt when you almost lost your entire thumb does not mean others are capable. The OP said MS is what they suffer from that is very different from a thumb missing. No it is not a competition but to dismiss all disabilities because you have one is wrong. I also feel a missing thumb has 0 to do with the mental implications of something like test anxiety. I do not believe anyone was truly seeking special treatment either, nor do i believe DE can do such modifications to one's account in game. I do see the OP using his challenges as a prime example of why there can be issues with the current MR test structure.

i still believe the point is being missed here almost completely. It is not about if one is necessarily capable so much as if one can pass it the one try the day - and yes i am obviously very aware of master rank practice test however as i stated was test anxiety and i assure you these practice tests do not way in in anyways to test anxiety. Google it if need be. The main issue here is that MR is kind of misplaced anymore to begin with but then the test seem to be just a number of challenges compounded together - this is not how missions go nor do operations. Yes one may have to parkour around a room and escort someone and heck your going to have to survive too but lets take the stealth test for example that is irrelevant. You give me a sword and an assault rifle then basically no stealth in game what-so-ever (spy missions the exception) and then once im basically done the game and onto grinding MR you then make me stop grinding to practice stealth which again has no real relation to the game mechanics. I understand we get more affinity and focus based on stealth kills however this is not something the game truly plays around. I understand the reasoning behind it especially when the game was young and about space ninjas, but at this point in its life somethings need a change and MR test restrictions are one of them. (in my opinion) 
 

I leave with my previous opinion still - if MR is a game progression marker then yes lets make it that and while we are at it we should fix this platinum to skip MR requirements on Weapons as well. Cestus and all landscapes should then be MR 10+ and players should be made to play through the vanilla game before they get to experience the colonization of earth, again. Operations should be MR based as well and frankly 10 would be ideal in my opinion. Lastly since Prime weapons are MR15+ then so should all Prime items - Warframes weapons and sentinels. Yes i agree something aside from the simaris relay would be nice like a special Lotus invite and ceremony even.

 

That all being said though the MR tests should still be something of value and relevance not just some weird test that makes you perform some odd maneuvers under odd circumstances that one would not even encounter in the game. I mean heck look at the Vey Hek fight or even Laphantis - where is the MR test on that? I see numerous people fight Vay Hek and Laphantis just shooting at them blindly and do not even remotely understand there is a mechanic in place. Those are things MR tests should be teaching instead of stealth kill 14 people in 3 separate rooms not blocked by solid walls cause i said so. That is the exact scenario that is not going to be found anywhere in the game aside - heck even rescue missions have a 1 minute timer before fail as well if you use an air support and a cipher your just golden regardless.

 

I dont see anyone seriously saying to remove the MR tests, people are merely saying to keep them relevant and not just challenges that are surreal for the game environment. Additionally i have seen lots of comments regarding MR test lockout timer and how that is kind of odd. I believe i understand why DE put it in place though - to time gate us from burning through everything instantly. That is a valid reason and im not against it but i believe if you Mastery Rank up that is when this lockout timer should be implemented.

 

[NK_20]

I completely agree with the idea of paying to skip the test, which should still have the 24h delay if that's what DE is set on for the MR tests in general, exactly as if you had passed it normally. The tests are nice and thematic, they do help teaching some skills, but overall they are window dressing to the progression. As already mentioned, they force players to diversify their arsenal in order to progress. But as they are meant to make people reach for the next number, asking them to do something arbitrary that does not truly reflect the challenges of the typical game is questionable. It becomes wrong when said player is stonewalled by the test and can go no further through no fault of their own, even if they are capable of running most other content in the game. People who can't aim precisely can use shotguns. People who can't pay attention to everything at once can use Rhino or something and stay out of the level 150+ content that emphasizes more complete awareness. There are options, which is what makes this game so great. Not having those options in this scenario should be remedied.

[ThouHastDisconnected]

am just here to point out the fact this is a potential troll. http://steamcommunity.com/app/230410/discussions/0/1480982338943135639/?ctp=4

not to be mean or anything but i know money people with hard disabilities that happen to play video games and enjoy it. also you wouldn't be able to proceed to rank 8 if you have bad finger that limit you from doing the basic movement ingame. 

[MJ12]

22 hours ago, SenariousNex said:

okay, lets start over.

Premises:

- Since it is online mmo, we have to all play by the same rules.

- Difficulty is what is needed to make warframe fun, at least for anyone I know. If it is made too easy to appeal to people who cannot complete the challenges for one reason or another, veteran/"hardcore"/"good" players will find the game to be just a boring monotonous grind just like it was in "press-4-to-win days." 

Problem:

- There are players who cannot complete challenges required to progess (MR Rankups, Planet Junctions, Few major quest mechanics)

Solution: 

- Restructure control schemes to ameliorate possible handicaps without affecting core challenge and gameplay.

 

I am certain if you can use 1 hand freely, you can a mouse with a ton of buttons and macros that will allow you to play the game exclusively with 1 hand.

If you have any better solutions that will solve the problem without violating my premises I will support it.

 

Your solution doesn't follow from your premises.

Difficulty is something that exists to prevent boredom, yes, but difficulty spikes are bad, because suddenly a player who is doing just fine in most content runs into a wall and cannot progress, despite being able to do the content beyond it. Difficulty spikes combined with sudden mechanics additions or shifts are even worse. Generally, difficulty spikes in good games are minimized, or at most limited to optional sections.

You can be a perfectly adequate Titanfall player without being able to get 5 midair ejecting pilot kills in a timely fashion. You can be a perfectly adequate Warframe player without being able to pass many of the mastery tests, because they generally are a combination of difficulty spikes plus mechanics which are completely optional in the game plus you have to do them solo.

Even if you enjoy 'difficulty' there is good difficulty and bad difficulty. Good difficulty is organic (it feels like a natural part of the gameplay), telegraphs what you need to do, and is designed to not be a frustrating bar on your experience. If you're having trouble with a high difficulty level, you can turn down the difficulty. If you're having issues with a certain specific mission type you can get friends to help you beat said mission type. So on and so forth. Bad difficulty is inorganic (it feels like BS), doesn't telegraph what is necessary to defeat it, and generally is frustrating. Mastery Ranks are pretty frustrating, because oftentimes they have little to no relation to the actual game. Like MR23's mobile point capture, which requires you to memorize the routes of these moving points while dodging enemies, and it's pretty telling most people use the strategy of perma-invis/rift cheesing it. Or the stealth tests, which aren't actually required for non-Spy missions (Which make up most of Warframe) and you can trivialize Spy missions via Infiltrate Ivara/Invis Loki anyhow if you don't like the stealth system in this game (you probably shouldn't).

I hardly believe that people are staying in the game solely because of the 10 minutes of difficulty spike every few weeks they get from a mastery test. If you want 'difficulty,' mastery tests are the worst place to put it in. Allow people to rerun the Sorties for lesser rewards if they want to play against lv100 enemies more often. Add specific Lv100 nodes for players who want to show off their hardcore-ness. But don't gate game progression off through difficulty spikes. That's why I suggested allowing pay-to-skip. If you really want your mastery test, fine. If you don't like it, you can just pay your bribe and ignore it. You progress faster if you're more skilled, but someone who can complete missions is going to end up progressing through the game. Just... slower.

[SenariousNex]

20 hours ago, MJ12 said:

.....That's why I suggested allowing pay-to-skip.....

I thought of that solution as well.

However when you look at massive community backlash against micro transactions in Shadows of War and Battlefront 2 which heavily feature pay-to-skip, (granted the backlash was against the gambling nature of those microtransaction) developers have to be careful when implementing these things.

I guess it would be ok for MR tests, but it may set a bad precedent for other pay-to-skip things,(for example pay to reroll rivens)

All I am saying it is a slippery slope.

[(PSN)wulvyrn]

On 10/25/2017 at 5:06 PM, (Xbox One)Zweimander said:

I essentially play on par with the best of them with one fully functioning thumb So I am disabled in a way but I found a way to make it seem like I'm not disabled in any way. Who's to say other disabled people couldn't do the same? I think those that want an easy way around the mastery tests and or complain about them need to possibly work around disabilities and or practice the tests more. I mean if one is capable of playing in the first place a simple MR test should be completely possible, me being a prime example after having there thumb practically cut off.

I couldn't agree more.  If one has brain damage or say a neurological disorder affecting hand coordination, practice is all you need; seriously?

Your reply does nothing to clarify how come some with high MR are idiots when it comes down to actually playing the game.

[BlackCoMerc]

On 10/25/2017 at 5:23 PM, MJ12 said:

Yes you are making fun of disabilities. You're literally strawmanning, say, "I have problems with my hand-eye coordination which mean I can play most of the content, but then get stuck on mastery tests which don't actually test things that you need in normal gameplay" with "I am blind and literally incapable of playing the game at all." People can play and enjoy a game while having a disability which stops them from having super-great twitch reflexes or other disabilities. A minor concession to those people whose reflexes are shot or whose hearing is bad or whatever is completely different from your strawman about how making minor concessions is "dumbing down the game."

Allowing people some sort of alternative mastery method, like I suggested (trading a large amount of credits + standing + rare mats/prime parts to bypass a mastery rank) would harm the game how? This would give the OP and his/her friends the ability to progress through mastery ranks while keeping mastery rank tests, and keeping them relevant. If you don't have to skip a mastery test, you get to keep a lot of stuff, but if you just can't finish one, you can skip it anyhow.

I'm not sure you guys understand the purpose of progression mechanics like mastery rank. They are not intended to be, are not, and shouldn't be, a signifier of skill. I've seen people with low MRs who are way better than me, and people with high MRs who just suck. They're a progression mechanic which exist to keep people playing the game, which is done by letting players get bigger numbers. Mastery Rank in fact takes it further by requiring a player to constantly diversify their arsenal to increase their mastery rank, which means the player is constantly incentivized to hunt down materials to build new equipment, then use it, which often means sticking forma/potatoes into new guns and frames you find out you like.

Making Mastery Rank actually achieve its function, instead of frustrating players who aren't arbitrarily good enough (despite being capable of doing everything the game requires of them in normal missions), is not "dumbing down" the game. There is nothing which makes the game "less dumb" if you have to do an arbitrary task, often with no relation to the actual gameplay, before you can progress in the game. It just creates a difficulty spike.

Nailed it.

MR isn't a measure of skill, it's a Business Model that measures how much stuff you have tried out, strongly pushing Play sales thereby.

And tests? Who in the world thought forcing test taking in a game was a good idea? DE are nice people, but they are increasingly out of touch with players as well.

[Yrkul]

Here's one more for "pay to skip".

I got artheritis in my hands, blurry vision and vertigo. I play the normal game decently. However, the visual design in the test area is problematic for me, and mr 7>8 test is unpassable. Something about the fast movement and features that glide into each other is very disorienting. Add the pain in fingers and wrists, and you have a game feature I want to have as little as possible to do with.

Let us pay. Credit or platinum. I don't care at this point.