Why I Dislike the Operator

[DiabolusUrsus]

1 hour ago, Klavinmour said:

There are a lot of Warframes that ignore the 25/50/75/100 model, for example my Valkyr has a LOT of efficiency and her 2 still costs more than 50 (I think 55 which usually has me sitting in bad spots) Nidus outright breaks this by his 3 and 4 costing Stacks rather than energy.

You say a lot but you've named one. I'm aware that there are exceptions, but I don't think that there are enough to suggest that the exceptions are anything other than arbitrary and whimsical. It's not like Warcry is some supremely powerful ability that vastly outperforms, say, Sonar or Antimatter drop. Nidus just further proves that there's no real convention to it, and he works on largely different mechanics from other characters.

1 hour ago, Klavinmour said:

Oh man, I dunno why are quests solo?
Could it be that lore is personal? Quest story is PERSONAL?
In Destiny/Destiny 2 you can play the entire campaign co-op, you know what happens when you do that? The players don't pay attention to the STORY.
And I'm sure players would love sitting in the background during the end of the Second Dream while the host chooses their choices in dialog.

Your sarcasm is falling a little flat.

My point was that if Warframe is built so strongly on co-op mechanics that you can say that Warframes are designed to be dependent on other Warframes, there's no good reason for there to be solo-only content. Destiny had story problems with its implementation of the lore being ENTIRELY EXTERNAL, and while I can't comment on Destiny 2 you can't possibly be suggesting that just because players are in co-op that means they won't pay attention to the story. Ever heard of Borderlands? Borderlands 2? The Halo series? Portal 2? There are plenty of ways to inject narrative into co-operative experiences effectively, and if you're suggesting that just because dialogue choices would be difficult to implement that means co-op story quests are impossible you're just being obtuse. I'm not talking about specific segments of quests that make sense to require solo completion. I'm talking about ENTIRE FREAKIN' QUESTS that are solo for no seeming rhyme or reason. Like Saya's Vigil. Or Octavia's Anthem after a point. Or Chains of Harrow.

They've done plenty of NON-solo quests with story aspects, and there's no indication that those have been any less successful.

1 hour ago, Klavinmour said:

Depending on what you want to do, specific build choices are required.
Do you want to fight level 140 enemies? Well you're not gonna unless if you put together specific team compositions.
Which can be quite variable depending on what you bring, if all four members bring Corrosive Projection you wont need armour stripping Warframes and corrosive damage on your weapons.
Not needing corrosive damage allows you to get Viral or Radiation.

Level 140 enemies are outside the scope of conventional Warframe balance. This isn't a discussion about pushing the limits of endless scaling; careful team composition and mechanical exploitation should be taken as a given in that context. That's not the context though. The context is Warframes not having the basic tools they need for sustainable play at normal high-level content within their kit.

If your energy system is designed around regulating player power use and it's a complete binary between completely irrelevant and inconsistent/downright unfair based on whether you've got a specific character or rare mod and the most effective solution to the problem is an energy-on-demand button that completely eliminates the point of the system, I'd call that a problem. Health is a rather secondary issue next to energy, but it's still relevant.

My point is that Warframe's fundamental systems are either unfairly overbearing or completely trivial depending on whether or not a player has specific items or characters and those systems are band-aided by something locked into the relative late-game, that's not a good thing. It makes the Operator useful, for sure, but it's still not a good thing.

Edited November 10, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus
Quest commentary fixes.

[Klavinmour]

4 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

You say a lot but you've named one. I'm aware that there are exceptions, but I don't think that there are enough to suggest that the exceptions are anything other than arbitrary and whimsical. It's not like Warcry is some supremely powerful ability that vastly outperforms, say, Sonar or Antimatter drop. Nidus just further proves that there's no real convention to it, and he works on largely different mechanics from other characters.

Your sarcasm is falling a little flat.

My point was that if Warframe is built so strongly on co-op mechanics that you can say that Warframes are designed to be dependent on other Warframes, there's no good reason for there to be solo-only content. Destiny had story problems with its implementation of the lore being ENTIRELY EXTERNAL, and while I can't comment on Destiny 2 you can't possibly be suggesting that just because players are in co-op that means they won't pay attention to the story. Ever heard of Borderlands? Borderlands 2? The Halo series? Portal 2? There are plenty of ways to inject narrative into co-operative experiences effectively, and if you're suggesting that just because dialogue choices would be difficult to implement that means co-op story quests are impossible you're just being obtuse. I'm not talking about specific segments of quests that make sense to require solo completion. I'm talking about ENTIRE FREAKIN' QUESTS that are solo for no seeming rhyme or reason. Like Saya's Vigil. Or Octavia's Anthem.

They've done plenty of NON-solo quests with story aspects, and there's no indication that those have been any less successful.

Level 140 enemies are outside the scope of conventional Warframe balance. This isn't a discussion about pushing the limits of endless scaling; careful team composition and mechanical exploitation should be taken as a given in that context. That's not the context though. The context is Warframes not having the basic tools they need for sustainable play at normal high-level content within their kit.

If your energy system is designed around regulating player power use and it's a complete binary between completely irrelevant and inconsistent/downright unfair based on whether you've got a specific character or rare mod and the most effective solution to the problem is an energy-on-demand button that completely eliminates the point of the system, I'd call that a problem. Health is a rather secondary issue next to energy, but it's still relevant.

My point is that Warframe's fundamental systems are either unfairly overbearing or completely trivial depending on whether or not a player has specific items or characters and those systems are band-aided by something locked into the relative late-game, that's not a good thing. It makes the Operator useful, for sure, but it's still not a good thing.

War Cry is actually an extremely powerful ability, for me it grants 1000+ armour on top of 1400+ already, this grants an additional 2400+ armour to any Kavat or Kubrow I bring as well as increasing their attack speed, and as long as I'm killing things that initial cost is negated thanks to Eternal War.
Huh interesting, there's another feature that works in favour of extending power use just like Tenno using Zenurik.
Mag is also a Warframe with incredible energy consumption even under the best possible conditions for her and she's considered a Starter.
I can go on and on listing Warframes with exceptional energy requirements and you'll ignore every one of them because "it's not Banshee's 4 or Nova's 3 and therefore it's irrelevant because these are the only GOOD abilities in the entire game".

I don't know what you're friends are like, but mine will constantly spray banter and S#&$ talk while playing co-op in those games, and any example on Twitch/YouTube I could find of such have exactly the same problem.
People just do not listen to the story while playing co-op, hell I have to make specific point to call out stuff at key points if I want a friend to pay attention for 5 seconds.

Yes there have been plenty of non-solo quests, but none of them are interlaced with PERSONAL story.
How the hell are you meant to co-op the story for The War Within?

While 140 enemies may be outside the normal scope of play, they are being constantly brought up by people in this thread as a point to hate on Tenno because "Tenno can't fight level 50+ enemies" which they can easily, and I've proven as much over and over on my stream.
We also seem to have very different ideas on what "normal high-level content" is, considering I do find 140 enemies to actually be normal content, to me level 50 is the turning point where the game starts to get fun.
I want to see Sorties become the standard for gameplay across the entire map, but we can't have that can we.

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 hours ago, Klavinmour said:

War Cry is actually an extremely powerful ability, for me it grants 1000+ armour on top of 1400+ already, this grants an additional 2400+ armour to any Kavat or Kubrow I bring as well as increasing their attack speed, and as long as I'm killing things that initial cost is negated thanks to Eternal War.
Huh interesting, there's another feature that works in favour of extending power use just like Tenno using Zenurik.
Mag is also a Warframe with incredible energy consumption even under the best possible conditions for her and she's considered a Starter.
I can go on and on listing Warframes with exceptional energy requirements and you'll ignore every one of them because "it's not Banshee's 4 or Nova's 3 and therefore it's irrelevant because these are the only GOOD abilities in the entire game"

You're missing the point if you can recognize that Mag has terrible energy economy, but can't connect the dots to the problem when you can also acknowledge that she is a STARTER Warframe. It's not just about Sonar or Antimatter Drop, either. Those are just examples. Yes, Warcry is powerful. No, it is not so immensely powerful that it needs to have a higher cost when compared with other kits.

I'm not suggesting that Operators are useless. I'm suggesting that the fact they can serve as substitute for the existing crutch characters isn't entirely a good thing.

3 hours ago, Klavinmour said:

I don't know what you're friends are like, but mine will constantly spray banter and S#&$ talk while playing co-op in those games, and any example on Twitch/YouTube I could find of such have exactly the same problem.

People just do not listen to the story while playing co-op, hell I have to make specific point to call out stuff at key points if I want a friend to pay attention for 5 seconds.

Yes there have been plenty of non-solo quests, but none of them are interlaced with PERSONAL story.
How the hell are you meant to co-op the story for The War Within?

So what you're saying is that you can't be bothered to play solo if it isn't forced? My group of friends actually enhance narrative experiences, but I can take it upon myself to pick and choose when to take them along. Youtube and Twitch are also largely social platform so most people go there for the commentary. Would you expect a suspense film to be the same experience if streamed on Twitch?

Also note that I'm not saying all quests NEED to be 100% multiplayer. I'm saying that given there is fairly prevalent solo-only content, it's not reasonable to say that any inter-warframe dependencies are by design. They are flaws; cooperation should be beneficial but ultimately supplementary.

War Within is a terrible counter-example for you, because the main solo portions are largely completed WITHOUT the Warframe.

3 hours ago, Klavinmour said:

While 140 enemies may be outside the normal scope of play, they are being constantly brought up by people in this thread as a point to hate on Tenno because "Tenno can't fight level 50+ enemies" which they can easily, and I've proven as much over and over on my stream.

We also seem to have very different ideas on what "normal high-level content" is, considering I do find 140 enemies to actually be normal content, to me level 50 is the turning point where the game starts to get fun.
I want to see Sorties become the standard for gameplay across the entire map, but we can't have that can we.

Yet level 50+ enemies are still within the scope of normal play. Level 100+ enemies are still within that scope. Still, that's entirely beside the point, and out of context relative to our discussion. (Meaning my conversation with you).

And it's not about what you or I consider to be normal content. It's what the devs have stated repeatedly; they don't balance for excessively scaled content, so you have to take what you can get in that regard. Don't try to bring those situations into consideration in discussions about normal content. They are irrelevant, period.

More importantly, those are the levels where specific team compositions are necessary to succeed... So if you're talking about some Warframes depending on others for things like Energy through the lens of limit-breaking to cheese endless scaling, you are wrong.

Warframe is not designed around that type of play.

[racooperii]

13 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

It's not limited to linear movement. It's not one dash. It is, as you said, "a series of straight lines", then end result being the ability to maneuver in almost any terrain. I have 4 dashes in my energy pool, and it's already very agile. Max Void Flow gives you up to 7, plus more if you hit enemies. It also doesn't require contact with the ground to reach maximum speed, and can move vertically with equal speed. If someone goes down 40 meters away, it takes me about a second to bullet jump into the air, void dash straight onto them, and start reviving. Oh, and void dash doesn't amplify my momentum and send me sliding off the edge of the map. XD

Straight lines are Linear Movement. You can only move in straight line to the direction youre facing while energy dashing, this is 100% linear and only by stringing them together can generate anything resembling non-linear.

Youre also 100% commited to the direction until the dash is finished, you cant decide to change direction or even stop halfway through the dash, unless you didnt account for the incline where you might go 3m then stop but a slide and a jump would still be going.

So yeah, in a perfectly straight line its faster, but any amount of finesse required and its really not. Its a very choppy way of moving that is very limited when you are placed in an area with obstacles(Like a lot of the star map).

It is not a superior way of movement given map designs in the game except maybe PoEs wide open space. 

[Klavinmour]

35 minutes ago, racooperii said:

Straight lines are Linear Movement. You can only move in straight line to the direction youre facing while energy dashing, this is 100% linear and only by stringing them together can generate anything resembling non-linear.

Youre also 100% commited to the direction until the dash is finished, you cant decide to change direction or even stop halfway through the dash, unless you didnt account for the incline where you might go 3m then stop but a slide and a jump would still be going.

So yeah, in a perfectly straight line its faster, but any amount of finesse required and its really not. Its a very choppy way of moving that is very limited when you are placed in an area with obstacles(Like a lot of the star map).

It is not a superior way of movement given map designs in the game except maybe PoEs wide open space. 

It also doesn't screw over other players.

Volt's Speed messes with other players, I HATE having it if I'm not playing Volt, and there's no way to not have it placed on you except being outside of the Volt's range.
When I've used it, it's either gotten my team mates killed or they've gone flying off of cliffs.

[DreamsmithJane]

17 minutes ago, racooperii said:

Straight lines are Linear Movement. You can only move in straight line to the direction youre facing while energy dashing, this is 100% linear and only by stringing them together can generate anything resembling non-linear.

Youre also 100% commited to the direction until the dash is finished, you cant decide to change direction or even stop halfway through the dash, unless you didnt account for the incline where you might go 3m then stop but a slide and a jump would still be going.

But you can string them together, so the overall movement is not linear. If you're trying to tell me you can't go around a corner or bypass an obstacle, yes you can.

A single dash takes a small fraction of a second, and you can aim at the floor or any obstacle to shorten it. Being committed might matter if it weren't instantaneous or totally controllable, but it is.

18 minutes ago, racooperii said:

So yeah, in a perfectly straight line its faster, but any amount of finesse required and its really not. Its a very choppy way of moving that is very limited when you are placed in an area with obstacles(Like a lot of the star map).

It is not a superior way of movement given map designs in the game except maybe PoEs wide open space. 

Yes, it really is. I don't understand why you think employing any finesse cripples it, because it doesn't. In point of fact, its advantages are larger when there are obstacles rather than straight paths, because it doesn't rely on momentum or gravity.

[Forcereborn]

I'm happy whenever I see topics like this coming up, because I know I'm not alone. I hate operators too, and the main reason is that I tend to hate what gets forced onto me (the secondary reason is that I got really frustrated with the Golden Maw part of TWW). Yeah, I know, it's not DE's fault. However, since there are people who actually like them, I wonder why making them mandatory for some game mechanics: people who like them would still be using them if they weren't, while the others could opt for alternatives, maybe less efficient, I'd be totally fine with that, but at least a possible choice. Here's a couple of examples I made up just to give the idea: you could collect kuva clouds with your operator, or equip some kind of gear that lets you collect them more slowly; Teralyst shields could have a very high resistance to anything that is not operator's beam, so that I'd be a fool trying to break them with ordinary weapons, but at least I'd have the choice to try.

My reaction to the current state of things: I have never tried to fight a Teralyst and I don't intend to do it anytime soon; as for the kuva, I have always done kuva missions in public and let the teammates do the operator job. Now that kuva can drop from sorties, I'm not even doing kuva missions at all, unless I'm short of it when in need to roll a riven for a weapon I'm really interested in. I'm not complaining though: it's how I chose to play this game and I'm still having fun.

Just one small complaint about the part that doesn't really pertain the operator him/herself: why do we have to press 5 and then 5 again at the start of each mission (and after we use a revive) in order to activate the passives? I fail to see the point of it. It's the same as if we always started the missions with our weapons on the ground and we had to press X to pick each one up. It's not fun, it's not challenging, it's not something we would ever choose not to do (unless I'm missing a particular scenario).

Edited November 10, 2017 by Forcereborn
typo

[BlackCoMerc]

Added to the list of things to dislike:

Needing to USE the Operator to ACTIVATE PASSIVE abilities.

They're called "passives." This strongly implies that you do not need to DO anything. Because if you did, they'd be called ACTIVATED abilities, NOT PASSIVE abilities.

Seriously - and I'm genuinely curious here - how does stuff like this get past the QA stage?

Edit:

I don't which is worse...that my partner has NEVER gotten Operator passives because while I mildly dislike Operator mode, she really doesn't care for it...

Or that she's literally never noticed the difference?

Yeah. That's how "impactful" Operator mode gas been so far...

Edited November 10, 2017 by BlackCoMerc

[racooperii]

3 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

But you can string them together, so the overall movement is not linear. If you're trying to tell me you can't go around a corner or bypass an obstacle, yes you can.

A single dash takes a small fraction of a second, and you can aim at the floor or any obstacle to shorten it. Being committed might matter if it weren't instantaneous or totally controllable, but it is.

Yes, it really is. I don't understand why you think employing any finesse cripples it, because it doesn't. In point of fact, its advantages are larger when there are obstacles rather than straight paths, because it doesn't rely on momentum or gravity.

Its not but if you want to think it is, keep believing it. However you havent nor will you convince anyone else of this.

[BlackCoMerc]

42 minutes ago, racooperii said:

Its not but if you want to think it is, keep believing it. However you havent nor will you convince anyone else of this.

This kills me every time.

People keep claiming void dash is a fast means of travel...

Yeah. Sure it is. If it makes you feel better...

I'll be over there. A mile further on. Bullet jumping, wall running, flipping, sprinting, rolling and jump kicking Grineer in the face...all without a forced, millisecond pause at the end of each move...

[Dasmir]

my operator still number 1 when i need to revive someone and do spy mission without the need to change warframe.

4 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

This kills me every time.

People keep claiming void dash is a fast means of travel...

Yeah. Sure it is. If it makes you feel better...

I'll be over there. A mile further on. Bullet jumping, wall running, flipping, sprinting, rolling and jump kicking Grineer in the face...all without a forced, millisecond pause at the end of each move...

Im sure they mean void dash with the correct nodes (Gorillons amount of focus farm)

 

Edited November 10, 2017 by Dasmir

[racooperii]

 

11 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

This kills me every time.

People keep claiming void dash is a fast means of travel...

Yeah. Sure it is. If it makes you feel better...

I'll be over there. A mile further on. Bullet jumping, wall running, flipping, sprinting, rolling and jump kicking Grineer in the face...all without a forced, millisecond pause at the end of each move...

A good example is in most situations and if I miss a ledge by over dashing, I have to quickly aim backwards and dash backwards which is cumbersome and choppy. Meanwhile if I over shoot with a bullet jump I can do a double jump and roll backwards immediately without any real effort AND I can still be killing things as I do it. And the idea that not being subject to physics is a plus, isn't necessarily a plus at all, especially when you consider all the space of movement you ignore during a dash. It's like the character is the focus point of a sphere and the dash is the maximum radius, any space between the focus and outer radius is space you can't intereact with during a void dash but can easily interact with in a variety of ways doing anything else.

In a straight shot free of any obstruction, sure it's fast as all hell and probably the fastest, but if there's a slight incline you didn't take into account or any obstacle that you touch even a little bit, you're going to be stopping a lot sooner than you thought while a slide->bullet jump-> double jump->roll->slide wouldn't be phased by it. It's farm more finicky, cumbersome and choppy compared to the dynamic and finesse style of movement the Warframes have.

[BlackCoMerc]

20 minutes ago, racooperii said:

 

A good example is in most situations and if I miss a ledge by over dashing, I have to quickly aim backwards and dash backwards which is cumbersome and choppy. Meanwhile if I over shoot with a bullet jump I can do a double jump and roll backwards immediately without any real effort AND I can still be killing things as I do it. And the idea that not being subject to physics is a plus, isn't necessarily a plus at all, especially when you consider all the space of movement you ignore during a dash. It's like the character is the focus point of a sphere and the dash is the maximum radius, any space between the focus and outer radius is space you can't intereact with during a void dash but can easily interact with in a variety of ways doing anything else.

In a straight shot free of any obstruction, sure it's fast as all hell and probably the fastest, but if there's a slight incline you didn't take into account or any obstacle that you touch even a little bit, you're going to be stopping a lot sooner than you thought while a slide->bullet jump-> double jump->roll->slide wouldn't be phased by it. It's farm more finicky, cumbersome and choppy compared to the dynamic and finesse style of movement the Warframes have.

And this post sums up why Operator game play isn't fun compared to WARFRAMES.

[racooperii]

9 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

And this post sums up why Operator game play isn't fun compared to WARFRAMES.

I mean, I have fun with my Op but for entirely different reasons than the Warframes themselves. But I do find Warframes more fun than Operators.

If I was to scale it, it would be Warframes > Operators > Archwing...I just hate Archwing so much.

[DreamsmithJane]

3 hours ago, racooperii said:

A good example is in most situations and if I miss a ledge by over dashing, I have to quickly aim backwards and dash backwards which is cumbersome and choppy. Meanwhile if I over shoot with a bullet jump I can do a double jump and roll backwards immediately without any real effort AND I can still be killing things as I do it. And the idea that not being subject to physics is a plus, isn't necessarily a plus at all, especially when you consider all the space of movement you ignore during a dash. It's like the character is the focus point of a sphere and the dash is the maximum radius, any space between the focus and outer radius is space you can't intereact with during a void dash but can easily interact with in a variety of ways doing anything else.

In a straight shot free of any obstruction, sure it's fast as all hell and probably the fastest, but if there's a slight incline you didn't take into account or any obstacle that you touch even a little bit, you're going to be stopping a lot sooner than you thought while a slide->bullet jump-> double jump->roll->slide wouldn't be phased by it. It's farm more finicky, cumbersome and choppy compared to the dynamic and finesse style of movement the Warframes have.

That's your argument? If you use it wrong, it doesn't work? Okay, let's look at your examples.

• If I overshoot a void dash (I don't know WHY I would do this, but hypothetically), I can reverse transference in mid air and do the same bloody thing you just described.
• Basically nothing happens during a void dash, because it's that fast. So if you're talking about a missed opportunity to act because you committed to a void dash, there is none. The reason you can interact with the space between your starting point and your destination during a bullet jump is because it's slower.
• If there's an incline, then you account for it. Most of the time, I'm void dashing from a bullet jump and then bullet jumping again after the dash chain (because they restored the ability to do that), so I don't even have to think about that. Again, doing it wrong is not a mark against it. That's a problem you created.

Don't get me wrong. You should play in whatever way feels right to you. But telling me what I said isn't true when it is demonstrably and mathematically correct? Come on.

[OfficialFrogvara]

On 11/8/2017 at 12:42 AM, DeltaPangaea said:

They probably will be.

All the story stuff seems to involve the taters nowadays. It would be nice to get something that's actually about the warframes, y'know? It's kinda sad that they're the namesake of the game and they're just shoved to the side.

(I'm not really following the thread anymore but eh why not)

Well, frankly, they aren't pushed to the side for me, even despite the Operators. In a way, the Operators actually enhance my enjoyment of the Warframes. Hell, I'm building 8 frames right now!

I frankly won't mind Umbra frames requiring Operator gameplay, and since the focus will be put on getting a new frame with the Operator, it will be a

sort of situation.

2 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

That's your argument? If you use it wrong, it doesn't work? Okay, let's look at your examples.

• If I overshoot a void dash (I don't know WHY I would do this, but hypothetically), I can reverse transference in mid air and do the same bloody thing you just described.
• Basically nothing happens during a void dash, because it's that fast. So if you're talking about a missed opportunity to act because you committed to a void dash, there is none. The reason you can interact with the space between your starting point and your destination during a bullet jump is because it's slower.
• If there's an incline, then you account for it. Most of the time, I'm void dashing from a bullet jump and then bullet jumping again after the dash chain (because they restored the ability to do that), so I don't even have to think about that. Again, doing it wrong is not a mark against it. That's a problem you created.

Don't get me wrong. You should play in whatever way feels right to you. But telling me what I said isn't true when it is demonstrably and mathematically correct? Come on.

What this tells me is I should really rebind my Transference to a more accessable button. I seriously get such a straing with Transference chaining.

Edited November 11, 2017 by OfficialFrogvara

[DeltaPangaea]

6 minutes ago, OfficialFrogvara said:

(I'm not really following the thread anymore but eh why not)

Well, frankly, they aren't pushed to the side for me, even despite the Operators. In a way, the Operators actually enhance my enjoyment of the Warframes. Hell, I'm building 8 frames right now!

I don't mean in gameplay, they're still 99% of all content, but there's no story quests about them. Taters get the story, warframes get the gameplay. But the gameplay is what gives me investment to the frames, while the taters are mostly 'you have to use me now' when it comes to gameplay. And making them not useless outside of that is such an arduous trial I try to work on it a little bit and then just give up because there's more entertaining things I could be doing.

It took me three separate tries to get enough sentient cores to get to the first rank of the Quills, with each ending in a disgusted 'sod it'. Then I had to go get more to get enough standing to get two of the blueprints for an amp that doesn't suck a massive proverbial. I still don't have the third. And then I'm looking at the ingredients for those amp pieces and I'll need more cetus wisps, cut gems of a recipe I don't have (So that means working for that standing which then doesn't help me actually progress with the Ostrons) and some fish livers. The livers are from a fish that needs specific bait, so that recipe needs to be bought as well. That fish bait also needs another specific other type of fish's eye for the recipe, so I need to go and get THAT...

It's honestly just not worth the effort. So much resources put into a system that they apparently don't actually even WANT you to use, or else they wouldn't have made it such a massive pain. I could do so many more valuable things with my time.

So not only do I dislike the taters from the beginning from an investment and tension standpoint combined with my love of nonhuman characters, mechanically they seem to be nothing but a tremendous pain.

Ugh, look at that fat post. I get too worked up over things like this.

[DreamsmithJane]

28 minutes ago, OfficialFrogvara said:

What this tells me is I should really rebind my Transference to a more accessable button. I seriously get such a straing with Transference chaining.

I should, too. I'm still using '5', and it's dumb. My left hand is all over my keyboard. I need one of those MMO/MOBA mice to balance the load.

[Klavinmour]

3 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

I should, too. I'm still using '5', and it's dumb. My left hand is all over my keyboard. I need one of those MMO/MOBA mice to balance the load.

Been using a Razer Naga Molten for around 7ish years, it makes all games much better.

[racooperii]

5 hours ago, DreamsmithJane said:

That's your argument? If you use it wrong, it doesn't work? Okay, let's look at your examples.

• If I overshoot a void dash (I don't know WHY I would do this, but hypothetically), I can reverse transference in mid air and do the same bloody thing you just described.
• Basically nothing happens during a void dash, because it's that fast. So if you're talking about a missed opportunity to act because you committed to a void dash, there is none. The reason you can interact with the space between your starting point and your destination during a bullet jump is because it's slower.
• If there's an incline, then you account for it. Most of the time, I'm void dashing from a bullet jump and then bullet jumping again after the dash chain (because they restored the ability to do that), so I don't even have to think about that. Again, doing it wrong is not a mark against it. That's a problem you created.

Don't get me wrong. You should play in whatever way feels right to you. But telling me what I said isn't true when it is demonstrably and mathematically correct? Come on.

If I was presenting an argument To You, you would know. That was not directed to you, and therefore I won't respond to you any further. Believe whatever you want, I don't care about your opinion or argument as you keep moving the goal post. 

What have you demonstrated? Nothing. Mathmatically? You're ignoring factors, you only have data on Operators and have not provided any data on the Frames themselves so how can I possibly accept you're "proof".

 

 

[Klavinmour]

37 minutes ago, racooperii said:

If I was presenting an argument To You, you would know. That was not directed to you, and therefore I won't respond to you any further. Believe whatever you want, I don't care about your opinion or argument as you keep moving the goal post. 

What have you demonstrated? Nothing. Mathmatically? You're ignoring factors, you only have data on Operators and have not provided any data on the Frames themselves so how can I possibly accept you're "proof".

 

 

Simple, you and him squad up, get on the plains, start from one beach and race to the other beach.

[DreamsmithJane]

1 hour ago, racooperii said:

If I was presenting an argument To You, you would know. That was not directed to you, and therefore I won't respond to you any further. Believe whatever you want, I don't care about your opinion or argument as you keep moving the goal post. 

What have you demonstrated? Nothing. Mathmatically? You're ignoring factors, you only have data on Operators and have not provided any data on the Frames themselves so how can I possibly accept you're "proof".

Uh, yeah, that was part of a comment chain that began with your response to me, so don't give me that. You came at me to challenge my claim in the first place, so don't act like I'm interrupting you. I haven't moved any goal posts. I have been entirely consistent. That sounds like a canned accusation to pull out when you've given up. I don't know why you cared in the first place. I wasn't criticizing anyone's preferences. I was just defending the objective value that operators provide to gameplay, mainly because it disgusts me when people rip on developers for fabricated reasons.

I have demonstrated plenty, and you're willfully ignoring it. I'm not ignoring factors. You're inventing them. I didn't provide data on the frames themselves because they're known quantities and I didn't want to wall-of-text the discussion. You sound like one of those infomercials where people do ridiculous things by "accident" to sell products on their ability to solve problems that don't exist. And I'm tired of it. So you're right. You won't respond to me anymore. You can respond to thin air, if you like, but I won't read it. Have a nice life. Bye.

[Galataya]

Can I please have phenix gaze back? can we please have the focus tree we had befor you broke what didn't need fixing? There was lots of space on the old tree to ADD things

[Fallen_Echo]

13 hours ago, Dasmir said:

my operator still number 1 when i need to revive someone and do spy mission without the need to change warframe.

The only useful change what no one can deny.

2 hours ago, Galataya said:

Can I please have phenix gaze back? can we please have the focus tree we had befor you broke what didn't need fixing? There was lots of space on the old tree to ADD things

And the others too, focus just lost its uniqueness.

[OfficialFrogvara]

9 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

I don't mean in gameplay, they're still 99% of all content, but there's no story quests about them.

Literally incorrect. All quests are story quests in WF, and every frame quest (save for Chains of Harrow) is about the frame. And what quests before were focused on the Warframes? Vor'd Prize? The Archwing quest?

This is, frankly, the first time we're focusing on the player character itself, rather than the quest being about other NPCs and us just interacting with them.

9 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

It's honestly just not worth the effort. So much resources put into a system that they apparently don't actually even WANT you to use, or else they wouldn't have made it such a massive pain. I could do so many more valuable things with my time.

What I'm quite sure of is that that system is planned to be tackled by new players.

Uh, that's confusing let me clear it up.

It's a system you're supposed to come into already having resources and Ostron standing. The way DE made the resource costs, it's clear that it's supposed to accomodate a new player coming into the game, doing some PoE stuff as they progress through the game and once they do The War Within they come back to the plains, with estabilished resources, doing something new and fresh on the plains during the night.

Now, this system makes sense when you take it as a new player feature like that.

It's absolutely dipS#&$ ridiculous when you consider most people have done TWW and are now facing tons of farming.

What they should've done is lower the costs of crafting for anyone who has done TWW before PoE was released. At least for a month would be ok, even.

9 hours ago, DeltaPangaea said:

Ugh, look at that fat post. I get too worked up over things like this.

Hey and I'm enabling you! I'm so sorry!