Why I Dislike the Operator

[BlackCoMerc]

This question is cropping up lately. As I people just think a lot of us WANT to hate the Operator.

So let me tell you WHY I - and I think some others also - dislike it as much as we do.

Let me examine the ways I have used my Operator:

I used it to pop O2 in Stealth. Once.

And to kill Vombuwhatevers. But only because I HAD to, since I had a Frost Prime and three weapons at the time...

Why do I dislike the Operator? Let's examine it's chief uses:

O2 in Survival, in Stealth. Itself a miserable, unfun mechanic that has far out lived it's usefulness, Operators make the rare necessity of using O2 towers suck less. They don't make it good, or fun; just less bad.

Kuva: Only good for one BP and Riven, which are gated behind Sorties. Which are awful, tedious chores full of ridiculous limitations and sponges with one shot kill weapons. And with a HORRIBLE drop rate to boot. 

Not the least bit interested. But if I were? Getting Kuca sucks. Getting Rivens sucks. Unveiling Rivens ABSOLUTELY SUCKS. But hey, having the Operator, makes this Festival of Tedium a little less terrible.

Teralyst: Finally a big, bad, Borderlands style Monster. One I'd love to chip away at with my powerful frame and weapons, that I worked hard to Forma and trick out.. finally, a big, bad END GAME MONSTER...

That throws all my time, effort and work RIGHT OUT THE WINDOW by FORCING Operator/Quill grind just to take down it's shield.

But hey... Operators make this ABSOLUTELY SUCK just a little less, so that's good, right?

Do you see the problem? Literally everything the operator does, just makes bad systems with arbitrary limits and ridiculous restrictions slightly less awful than they already are.

If i dislike the Operator, its because DE has TAUGHT me to dislike the Operator. Its not enough that it's an awkward, slow, creepy child murderer that's taken months of Dev time away from the reasons I love this game.

The ONLY purpose it serves in the game, is to make terrible systems suck a little less. So tell me: why SHOULD we like it? Because the things it was created to help with, STILL SUCK...albeit, maybe just a little less now.

Edited November 4, 2017 by BlackCoMerc

[Xaero]

5 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

So tell me: why SHOULD we like it?

Because it's fun. As someone who got everything the game could offer I really enjoyed having such a different gameplay option. Through upgrading the focus tree, getting a good amp and arcanes Operator becomes pretty powerful, survivable and fast. I can even kill later game bosses using only my child soldier.

[racooperii]

33 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

Because it's fun. As someone who got everything the game could offer I really enjoyed having such a different gameplay option. Through upgrading the focus tree, getting a good amp and arcanes Operator becomes pretty powerful, survivable and fast. I can even kill later game bosses using only my child soldier.

 

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Fun is subjective and doesn't really work as a counter argument. This is along the lines of "You're playing the game wrong if you don't enjoy what I enjoy" and totally fallacious.

Operators could be much better, but as they are a dichotomy from the core game play of Warframe and one that some players just don't like or find enjoyable. The fact they can improve is irrelevant, since enough people find them boring/awful to play to begin with that they don't find value in building them up to being OK. In comparison, we already have a superior tool in the Warframes and their weapon Kits that Operators as they are will always be somewhat obsolete.

DE should have made them synergize with the Warframes more, like the last moments of TSD where the Warframe acted without the Operators direct influence. If they synergize them With Warframes and add a real boost to the Core-Gameplay then they could be a substantial part of the game, as they are they're a very different play style that a lot of people simply didn't sign up for.

[HexCaliber]

17 minutes ago, racooperii said:

 as they are they're a very different play style that a lot of people simply didn't sign up for.

Talk about self entitled, I have one word for you, "tough", many people have no problem with operators, others take the rough with the smooth.  If the developers tried to make everyone happy they would end up chasing their tails indefinitely. Operators are now part of the game, a game that is in constant development, one that will continue to change adding further mechanics and refining existing ones. Operators currently encompass a very small portion of the game and can be easily ignored for more than 90% of the content.

 

[racooperii]

Just now, HexCaliber said:

Talk about self entitled, I have one word for you, "tough", many people have no problem with operators, others take the rough with the smooth.  If the developers tried to make everyone happy they would end up chasing their tails indefinitely. Operators are now part of the game, a game that is in constant development, one that will continue to change adding further mechanics and refining existing ones. Operators currently encompass a very small portion of the game and can be easily ignored for more than 90% of the content.

 

You know that making an argument with something out of context makes you look foolish right? This post you made does nothing to convince those people otherwise, and opening with an ad-hominin will also simply put people on a defensive rather than listen to anything you have to say.

If you want me to respond to you with any moniker of respect for your "insight", then try to argue against the entire point.

Also, notice I say a lot of people and not myself. Perhaps YOU should improve upon your reading comprehension before trying to make a counter point, also starting it out with Ad-Hominen is going to further detract from your point.

This also does nothing to dissuade WHY people dislike them or even gives a reason WHY people Should like them. 

Simply saying "tough" isn't going to make people like them more, or provides suggestions to DE on how to make them more palatable for the people who do dislike them. I mean, heaven forbid you actually took the time to make a proper response than a pointless out of context ad-hominin.

[Fleuria]

I use my operator in bounty missions (routinely) and in sorties (routinely). I mostly use void dash, occasionally use void beam (mostly on terralysts, but also - for example - to open boxes that my mining cutter can't cut through) and almost never use void blast (except on kuva missions, which I have not felt motivated to be doing for some time now). I sometimes use operator stealth (handy in some sorties).

Anyways, I guess, mostly, I am saying that my experience seems significantly different from the original poster's in this thread?

 

[Tuccos]

3 hours ago, Fleuria said:

I use my operator in bounty missions (routinely) and in sorties (routinely). I mostly use void dash, occasionally use void beam (mostly on terralysts, but also - for example - to open boxes that my mining cutter can't cut through) and almost never use void blast (except on kuva missions, which I have not felt motivated to be doing for some time now). I sometimes use operator stealth (handy in some sorties).

Anyways, I guess, mostly, I am saying that my experience seems significantly different from the original poster's in this thread?

 

nothing that couldnt be done with any warfame.....

People seem to start to try to find reasons to play this dull Operator over Warframes .........

Its pointless to search for reasons to play Operator over WF´s .... 

[Klavinmour]

40 minutes ago, Tuccos said:

nothing that couldnt be done with any warfame.....

People seem to start to try to find reasons to play this dull Operator over Warframes .........

Its pointless to search for reasons to play Operator over WF´s .... 

Why use Harrow over Trinity?
Why use Rhino over Valkyr?
Why use Hydroid over Nekros?

Operators give us more combat options.
If I'm playing a tank with no self heal, or life steal weapon (I don't like using life steal mods because they take away from utility I like) then I can use my Vazarin Void Dash to full heal my Frame.
If I'm playing a Caster type Frame I could use Zenurik to give myself incredibly amounts of energy instead of wasting resources on Energy Pizzas or taking the energy regen aura which is completely useless.

All this opens up greater room for expression in Warframe choice, if my team of four has Zenurik and Vazarin we wont need a Trinity or Harrow for Energy and Healing.
If we have a Naramon Tenno then we can get sweet crit boosts to our melee, which if you've been paying attention to melee and the Red Crit Build you know that's a good thing.


But sure fine, go ahead and spam your Spamulor Mirage, or whatever cheese is your flavour.
Meanwhile the rest of us will be trying out Frame combinations and weapon combinations that are giving a breath of fresh air to this game after 4 years.

[Fallen_Echo]

28 minutes ago, Klavinmour said:

If I'm playing a tank with no self heal, or life steal weapon (I don't like using life steal mods because they take away from utility I like) then I can use my Vazarin Void Dash to full heal my Frame.
If I'm playing a Caster type Frame I could use Zenurik to give myself incredibly amounts of energy instead of wasting resources on Energy Pizzas or taking the energy regen aura which is completely useless.

But do you actually play the operators or just use a quick void dash then insta return to your wf?

Doing void dash macros or such just to get over with getting the bonus is NOT playing the operators its slightly using them up.

 

29 minutes ago, Klavinmour said:

But sure fine, go ahead and spam your Spamulor Mirage, or whatever cheese is your flavour.

The simulors got nerfed soo much its pointless to use them with anything expect mirage against the infested.

Most of them switched to other powerhouse tactics.

[Klavinmour]

25 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

But do you actually play the operators or just use a quick void dash then insta return to your wf?

Doing void dash macros or such just to get over with getting the bonus is NOT playing the operators its slightly using them up.

 

The simulors got nerfed soo much its pointless to use them with anything expect mirage against the infested.

Most of them switched to other powerhouse tactics.

Yes I do still actually use my Operator.
1000 health, 8 health per second regen, invulnerability and stealth in one ability (Void Mode).
Not to mention I can out damage against any cheese tactic with just my Operator.

 

 

[Tuccos]

Then enjoy playing your little kid .......

Honestly a well geared (MOD´d) Rhino or Ivara can do everything and all in groups or solo ..... they are just boring over time

Nothing else needed but these 2 .. the rest of Warframes is pure show , i have 90% of all Warframes btw...

Edited November 5, 2017 by Tuccos

[Fleuria]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

But do you actually play the operators or just use a quick void dash then insta return to your wf?

Doing void dash macros or such just to get over with getting the bonus is NOT playing the operators its slightly using them up.

 

The simulors got nerfed soo much its pointless to use them with anything expect mirage against the infested.

Most of them switched to other powerhouse tactics.

Void dash has considerable utility beyond activating buffs. I did a two player hour long Mot survival, for example, where I was in operator form (with void dash, mostly) most of the time. The only reason I stopped after an hour was that my hands were getting tired. Perhaps I should look into these macros you speak of?

Meanwhile, simulors can be useful for frame other than mirage. Base damage is not great, this is true, but when combined with warframe abilities they can be decent CC (and, in turn, do adequate damage for some mission types). A lot depends, though, on who you are working with and the needs of their builds.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Fleuria

[BlackCoMerc]

Lots of posts about using the Operator.

Not a single one about doing anything a Frame can't already do. Including Invisibility, which used to require a frame to achieve.

Tell me: how was this worth years of Dev time NOT spent adding new missions, enemies, tiles and other Core improvement?

[Xaero]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Lots of posts about using the Operator.

Not a single one about doing anything a Frame can't already do. Including Invisibility, which used to require a frame to achieve.

Tell me: how was this worth years of Dev time NOT spent adding new missions, enemies, tiles and other Core improvement?

Are you a member of Quills? I guess you've seen a future where DE added all of it in desired quantities instead of introducing mechanics you don't like.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 minute ago, Ksaero said:

Are you a member of Quills? I guess you've seen a future where DE added all of it in desired quantities instead of introducing mechanics you don't like.

As compared to...what? A future where in the Core game goes largely ignored for years in favor of Gimpy the Emo Kid? No thanks.

And believe me...this isn't just me not liking the Operator. Not just me by far.

[Lukkiete]

"Why I Dislike the Operator"

OMG, nobody cares. If you don't like the stuff, don't play it, don't use it. Was it really necessary to make a thread just to say that you don't like operators?

"I don't like it therefore nobody likes it" - This is what everyone who make threads like these sound.

Edited November 5, 2017 by CephalonNiksyn

[Xaero]

11 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

As compared to...what? A future where in the Core game goes largely ignored for years in favor of Gimpy the Emo Kid? No thanks.

I'm saying time isn't the only thing needed for something to be introduced. For example, they've had plenty of time to introduce shield gating but it's still not in the game because they can't figure out how to make it work properly. You can't know if anything related to the core gameplay gets pushed away by other stuff.

11 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

And believe me...this isn't just me not liking the Operator. Not just me by far.

It doesn't affect my point in any way.

Edited November 5, 2017 by Ksaero

[BlackCoMerc]

20 minutes ago, Ksaero said:

I'm saying time isn't the only thing needed for something to be introduced. For example, they've had plenty of time to introduce shield gating but it's still not in the game because they can't figure out how to make it work properly. You can't know if anything related to the core gameplay gets pushed away by other stuff.

It doesn't affect my point in any way.

Fair enough. We can't know for sure that operator is putting core game play additions on hold. But we do know that:

DE is not a large team

Budgets are limited, and more of one thing, means less of another

For the last couple of years, Warframes and the game play surrounding them grew pretty stagnant, while player numbers, until PoE, dropped.

All of which points to one of two things. Either the Operator focus or PoE really took people away from new, replayable missions and things to do, etc. 

I hope that more rapid turnaround is possible for future open maps. That the Pipeline can speed them up some. If DE is moving in that direction - and the stream insinuated that they are - I don't know if one per year and a couple of non-repeatable, 1 hour quests are going to hold players. And I know the Operator certainly won't.

[OfficialFrogvara]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Fair enough. We can't know for sure that operator is putting core game play additions on hold.

Ok I'm quoting this specifically to adress something you may not like, that came up a few times in this thread.

I'm quite sure DE is set on making Operators a core mechanic.

This is a very bold statement, so let me run through why I think it's true.

The biggest reason is the lore. Ever since Second Dream have we had Operators as the true Tenno. Since then we had another major quest with them the very next cinematic update, then a whole minor quest about Tenno in Chains of Harrow, and now their involvement in PoE.

Next is the sheer amount of attention Operators are getting. DE could've just left Focus be a system of bonuses for the Frames and still expand on Operator lore. But no, we got a Warrior mode, we got Focus totally about making them stronger.

Then the upcoming "moral compass" thing. We have no idea whay it is, but it is obviously connected to Operators, Kuva, and the Man in the Wall.

I would even go as far as suggest Sacrifice and Umbra frames will involve Operators.

And let me be absolutely clear now. I love it. I love the Operators, the lore, the gameplay, the Focus. I want more of it and I trust it will be good.

The concern now seems to be largely about how Operators are useful only in a handful of cases. Well, here I'm suggesting that they won't be for long. Worst case scenario, DE manufactures use for them and pushes it on us. I doubt it will be that bad, but either way Operators are here to stay.

[DreamsmithJane]

4 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

And believe me...this isn't just me not liking the Operator. Not just me by far.

No, there are like...two others.

Sarcasm aside, people would not be so invested in the problem of focus gain if they didn't like the operator and didn't want to use it. If you're only after the nodes that directly benefit warframes, it's not nearly the same mountain to climb. People want focus because they want to use their operators. You are in the minority. Most players with any opinion have looked at a system that has been frustrating to use, and want to see the system succeed and have its problems ironed out, not see it abandoned and depreciated in favour of making all the content involving it redundant. There were quite a few players who hated archwing, too, and some of them probably still do, but very few people today will argue for its removal.

4 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

And I know the Operator certainly won't.

LOL, no you don't. You are not the playerbase. You are one player. And I sincerely doubt you can find the numbers to support your claim that operator gameplay is a poor investment. There are tens of frames and hundreds of weapons already. Adding more breadth to the game has diminishing returns. Every new weapon and frame they add has to compete with all the others. Adding depth via concomitant systems is a logical step to take from a gameplay design perspective.

1 hour ago, OfficialFrogvara said:

I'm quite sure DE is set on making Operators a core mechanic.

I would go a step beyond that. They already are a core mechanic. Their constant presence and impact on overall gameplay habits is difficult to ignore. When an ally goes down, my first instinct is to go into operator mode and void dash directly onto them to revive them. Chaining void dashes is already one of the most common ways for me to get around. Bullet jumping high to get over obstacles makes me a sitting duck, and void dash is the quickest way back to the ground. Void dash, blast, and amp are also a big part of my CC toolkit with any frame and any focus school.

Now, when I say they're a core mechanic, I don't mean you can't play without them. I mean, technically, you can't. You can choose not to equip guns, or melee, or a companion. But you can't not equip your operator. You can, of course, simply not use it. But you can play most maps without your jump button. The question is: why would you? At that point, you have to acknowledge that you are limiting yourself on purpose by not fully playing the game.

[Fleuria]

11 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Lots of posts about using the Operator.

Not a single one about doing anything a Frame can't already do. Including Invisibility, which used to require a frame to achieve.

Tell me: how was this worth years of Dev time NOT spent adding new missions, enemies, tiles and other Core improvement?

I think the problem here is that both the operator and the frame are playing the same game. If we could somehow get the operator to be playing some *other* game, then we could get them working towards different goals that are not relevant here.

...

..

.

Mind you, I am not sure why I should want such a thing.

[fr4gb4ll]

On 4.11.2017 at 3:45 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

If i dislike the Operator, its because DE has TAUGHT me to dislike the Operator. Its not enough that it's an awkward, slow, creepy child murderer that's taken months of Dev time away from the reasons I love this game.

no, it's because people like you always dislike anything that force them to think a bit for once (and it's not even forced, since you could let other player in the team do the operator parts - or do you dislike other people in your team too?) instead of going into abrain-dead berserker mode firing and hacking all around them. you like this? fine, you can do this all the time in most of the normal missions - and, like i said you can let others do the "slow, creepy child murderer" parts.

as for me, i like the change of playstyle and also the "slow, creepy child murderer" parts and are perfectly able to solo those with 3 other brain-dead tanks in my team just using their frame and it's weapons.

therefore, if it isn't obivous from my statement, i disagree with about most of yours (you do have a point or two in the rest of them, where i would agree, but those are already discussed on many other threads - so i'll just stop here).

[Madotsuki]

Operators are redundant. That is a fact. There is nothing a starchild can do that a Warframe can't do better, except artificially shoehorned mechanics that force people to take DE's pet project for a walk like Kuva or Teralysts.

You wanna know what an Operator is? It's an Ivara who can only cloak, with no shields and minimal hp (unless you're in a specific focus school), with no parkour, limited to a combination of 3 primaries and 3 secondaries. That's it. Oh and I suppose you could also add horrid characterization to the list but some people relate to the stereotypical angsty emo teen angle I guess.

Combat Operators have not made them any more useful. The only thing it has made them is VIABLE. Yes, I can kill things up to level 50 pretty reliably with an amp, provided I spam cloak or perpetually hide in a snowglobe. I could ragdoll mobs with my 'melee', potentially disarm them with the right upgrades. I could void dash.

...But why? Why would I do that?

I have a Trinity that can perpetually full heal the party with infinite energy regen. I have a Rhino that can no-sell enemy CC/damage and double the party's damage. I have a Volt who can GO FAST. I have a Loki who can still go fast while cloaked and doesn't keel over because a Trooper looked at me funny. I have a prisma obex that can AoE ragdoll enemies and Jojo people. I have a Hek that can oneshot level 100 Grineer. I have dozens of frames and hundreds of weapons to choose from, many with a variety of fun gimmicks and easy customization. I can bullet jump as a frame, wall run, sprint, dash and slide across the map at several times the speed of a starchild and not take fall damage.

IN WHAT SITUATION, OUTSIDE OF SHOEHORNED FORCED MECHANICS, IS AN OPERATOR RELEVANT?

"B-B-But if you don't like it just don't play it! It doesn't hurt you!"

That is true. Or it WOULD be true, if DE doesn't keep trying to force people into using it. Plains Eidolons? Can't be killed without starchild. Energy Overflow? You have to take the starchild out for a second every few seconds now. Frame passives? Have to take the starchild out at the start of a mission. Not actually use it of course, just, you know, making sure you know the starchild's there. It's there, guys. WHY DON'T YOU LOVE IT YET?! Considering the direction DE's going, I wouldn't be surprised if more and more future content is gated behind using Operators.

And let's not forget that DE is not a large company. This isn't just making new skins or weapons, this is making a 'core mechanic' that'll occupy a very large portion of the development team for a very long period of time, and that means other things don't get developed. Balancing pass to make difficulty less just about stacking numbers and shutting down enemies, new Raids or just fixing goddamn JV, Nemesis system so clans have something to do that is NOT sitting in a single node farming a resource all day, new enemies that don't suck, etc. etc. Focus on starchilds mean other things, BETTER things, don't get made.

The sooner DE realizes Operators have no place as a core mechanic for the game, the sooner they can be designed as an optional supplement to Warframe gameplay instead of trying to be a replacement for frames with content designed around it, and the sooner more relevant content can be made.

[-VV-Phantom-Phoenix]

I wouldn't really call the plains end game, they've shown art progress on the creation of a new eidolon of which i'm sure lots more are to follow.
At the end of the Day, the plains are on earth, the lowest lvl planet we have so it isn't a stretch to assume that the future holds more open world maps for the higher lvl planet.

[DreamsmithJane]

2 hours ago, Madotsuki said:

Operators are redundant. That is a fact. There is nothing a starchild can do that a Warframe can't do better

No, it's not a fact.

2 hours ago, Madotsuki said:

I have a Trinity that can perpetually full heal the party with infinite energy regen.

Too bad you have to be Trinity to do that. Imagine if you could heal the whole squad while bringing a frame that's actually useful. Wait, you can.

(Yeah, I'm throwing shade at Trinity. So what?)

2 hours ago, Madotsuki said:

I have a Rhino that can no-sell enemy CC/damage and double the party's damage.

I have a Banshee that can no-sell enemy CC/damage and decuple the party's damage. Void mode is a thing.

2 hours ago, Madotsuki said:

I have a Volt who can GO FAST.

I have an operator who can go faster. But actually. Chaining void dashes is faster than everything that's not a teleport, to the extent that I regularly outrun Volts by doing that every time I have operator energy and just bullet-jumping in between.

2 hours ago, Madotsuki said:

I have a Loki who can still go fast while cloaked and doesn't keel over because a Trooper looked at me funny.

...An operator who can go faster and doesn't take damage from being in the crossfire of confused enemies, and also has more health than Loki. And regenerates health.

2 hours ago, Madotsuki said:

IN WHAT SITUATION, OUTSIDE OF SHOEHORNED FORCED MECHANICS, IS AN OPERATOR RELEVANT?

I use mine constantly. It increases my mobility, survivability, and battlefield presence no matter which frame I'm using. Operators justify themselves just fine.

The actual problem is that I'm several million focus points and an operator arcane into this system, and many people find the progress too slow and the baseline performance insufficient. They don't want to grind hard for a month to get where I am, let alone to the point of soloing Ambulas with their operators like in the video linked above. Focus 2.5 changes mentioned in devstream 100 should alleviate some of the grind.