Melee current state and rework

[ScribbleClash]

HOW IT CURRENTLY IS:
At the moment, melee weapons favor critical hits and/or status effects due to some mods that have been released over time (crit for combo counter, damage for status effects,... ). Stances, in most cases, are, other than for the capacity bonus, mostly useless. Channelings only current use is to restore health.

THE PROBLEMATIC I SEE:
This leaves anything that is not related directly to supporting your crit/status builds on your melee mostly useless. Additionally, melee leaves you often to counterattacks or enemy fire from afar. Channeling just eats away at your energy, which could've been spent better.

(MY) SUGGESTION TO IMPROVE MELEE:
Change the stances combos, so that they may improve your survivability by either:

• interrupt the enemies hit
• grant avoidance
• grant damage reduction
• steal health

Additionally, make combos charge a new combo gauge. Performing different combos will allow to charge it faster. Once the gauge is filled, you may activate channeling at your behest. Current channeling mods will instead now influence the duration during which channeling may stay active.

This would make the combo system more engaging and add a seperate layer for channeling attacks to melee. Channeling mods may need to be looked at for this change though. Maybe even introduce general melee weapon arcanes that activate an effect on channeling activation (E.g.: something akin of ash's bladestorm in your close vacinity).

Additionally, could the current combo counter be renamed to hit counter to avoid confusion. The combo counter, as it currently is, has nothing to do with the execution of combos. It actually is just counting your hits and granting a multiplier for consecutive hits.*

*edited 2017.11.06, 20:26 UTC

Edited November 6, 2017 by ScribbleClash

[(XBOX)ultimategamerjr]

Personally i think melee is mostly fine. All they need to add is a decaying combo counter instead of just losing it all at once, and they would be golden.

[ScribbleClash]

1 minute ago, (Xbox One)ultimategamerjr said:

Personally i think melee is mostly fine. All they need to add is a decaying combo counter instead of just losing it all at once, and they would be golden.

So how often do you use channeling? Do you use several different stances? Is it important to you to pull the combo attacks of?

Side Note: Naramon does give you decay insteaed of loss of counter in PoE update.

Edited November 6, 2017 by ScribbleClash

[Entharias]

2 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ultimategamerjr said:

Personally i think melee is mostly fine. All they need to add is a decaying combo counter instead of just losing it all at once, and they would be golden.

Check Naramon, you might find a surprise there.

[(XBOX)ultimategamerjr]

1 minute ago, ScribbleClash said:

So how often do you use channeling? Do you use several different stances? Is it important to you to pull the combo attacks of?

Side Note: Naramon does give you decay insteaed of loss of counter in PoE update.

I use channeling sometimes to stealth level melees, since it dissolves bodies.

 

Just now, Nakrast said:

Check Naramon, you might find a surprise there.

I'm on xbox... we don't have PoE yet. But I am glad to find out that it is coming.

[Kalvorax]

They actually have changed the combo counter to decay, though i dont know what the base rate is. Consoles will get it soon.

That being said, i really wish they would go back and look over the older stances, their combos are useless and annoying to pull off...and the animations are just, not flowing as well as the newer stances do.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Kalvorax

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

While melee overall is very effective, the combos and channeling badly need work.

Channeling is useless compared to saving the energy for abilities since it's inefficient and flat damage is not worth as much as control in higher levels. In the case of most combos you're better off spamming the button because they are nothing but a flashy show. 

All combos should be useful and encourage people to use them because of the timing and environmental awareness that usually comes with pulling them off. There are a select few with highly unique bonuses that make them amazing, but they're too far between when it comes to combos.

I love the idea of combos providing defensive bonuses, and building up their own charge meter to make melee combat flow smoothly and consistently while giving new life to the channeling mechanic.

[ScribbleClash]

16 minutes ago, (Xbox One)ultimategamerjr said:

I use channeling sometimes to stealth level melees, since it dissolves bodies.

 

I'm on xbox... we don't have PoE yet. But I am glad to find out that it is coming.

I can see how that would then be going against what you'd like to see, but maybe either of these could would work for you:
Make the combo gauge fill quickly when finishers are caused.
Add a mod that dissolves enemies killed by stealth kills. (more consistency overall)

[(PSN)NicolaiBM]

3 minutes ago, ScribbleClash said:

I can see how that would then be going against what you'd like to see, but maybe either of these could would work for you:
Make the combo gauge fill quickly when finishers are caused.
Add a mod that dissolves enemies killed by stealth kills. (more consistency overall)

To me that just seems like another bandaid mod. Channeling isn't supposed to be an always on ability, it's a mechanic in place to deal with heavier units or desolving bodies or life steal.

[tarfeef101]

What?!?! You want to make melee even more overpowered than it is?!

Tell me what gun is going to kill a level 1500 heavy gunner faster than any melee weapon with it's actual scaling damage. Maybe snipers with their new combo system, IF you use a bunch of pizzas. I haven't played a lot in the last 2 months so I haven't properly tested em out. But melee is already by far the most effective (and easiest/cheesiest) way to kill in WF right now. It does not need a buff.

[(XBOX)bigsnake84]

Melee is very strong right now and I ALWAYS use melee weapons, even before body count/blood rush. If you're having problems with damage avoidance or dealing with enemies from afar, that's a lack of using movement properly. Rolling is your best friend with melee combat and if you find that you're vulnerable while attacking, you need to keep always moving so enemy accuracy doesnt catch up to you. Most poor melee players I see are simply standing in place spamming their melee.

But some combos could use a little tweaking, or ways to cancel the animations so you're not locked in. And that channeling idea sounds really cool.

[ScribbleClash]

23 minutes ago, (Xbox One)bigsnake84 said:

Melee is very strong right now and I ALWAYS use melee weapons, even before body count/blood rush. If you're having problems with damage avoidance or dealing with enemies from afar, that's a lack of using movement properly. Rolling is your best friend with melee combat and if you find that you're vulnerable while attacking, you need to keep always moving so enemy accuracy doesnt catch up to you. Most poor melee players I see are simply standing in place spamming their melee.

But some combos could use a little tweaking, or ways to cancel the animations so you're not locked in. And that channeling idea sounds really cool.

You cant do a combo and avoid enemy attacks at the same time (or maybe that is just me, correct me on this once more if you feel that is the case). This is exactly why I suggest to give the previously mentioned boosts during combos.

Personally I find combos in their current form just highly unsatisfying. Most I do is roll, slide-attack or just randomly attack. Unless I'm using Cleaving Whirlwind(the formentioned exception), then it's just spin to win.

51 minutes ago, tarfeef101 said:

What?!?! You want to make melee even more overpowered than it is?!

The channeling change wouldn't really influence current melee builds, but open up a new path. So I am believing you're saying that granting more survivability through combos would be adding to the already staggering power of melee too much. I honestly gotta say, this is due to a very few mods and their faults should not stop the possibility of making combos more engaging.

EDIT to original post:
Additionally, could the current combo counter be renamed to hit counter to avoid confusion. The combo counter, as it currently is, has nothing to do with the execution of combos. It actually is just counting your hits and granting a multiplier for consecutive hits.

[White_Matter]

I think when equipping a melee, you should be granted passive armor and movement speed which should keep increasing based on your combo counter. 

That nerf to movement while swining a melee weapon made it hard to chase fast enemies in open areas who are spread around you, unless you are stacking some movement speed mods. 

I also think the combo system should be changed in a way that certain mile stones(1.5x, 2x, etc.) should unlock new moves like finishers or special attacks to make the whole combo thing useful and rewarding. 

 

 

 

[Kainosh]

4 minutes ago, ScribbleClash said:

You cant do a combo and avoid enemy attacks at the same time

You have abilities, slams, and you can position yourself so that only ONE enemy is in front of you.  Most combos provide enough CC to use them in a tight crowd.

If you get shot and feel like its not going to end well, retreat and lure enemies into a better position.

Same happens in DMC series. You cant simply stand there and do your combos...need to dodge and kill most annoying enemies first.

[(XBOX)bigsnake84]

14 minutes ago, ScribbleClash said:

You cant do a combo and avoid enemy attacks at the same time (or maybe that is just me, correct me on this once more if you feel that is the case). This is exactly why I suggest to give the previously mentioned boosts during combos.

Personally I find combos in their current form just highly unsatisfying. Most I do is roll, slide-attack or just randomly attack. Unless I'm using Cleaving Whirlwind(the formentioned exception), then it's just spin to win.

Depends on the combo. Some combos feel like they lock you in for too long or keep you in place while others flow with movement. Thats why I agree that some combos should be tweaked. Probably in a way that favors mobility.

It's why my most recent favorite stance has been Final Harbinger on sword & shields.

P.S. I just thought about the melee camera auto aim thing, maybe that could be part of the mobility problem. I have mine on and sometimes I think it harms more than helps. Going to turn it off for a while to see.

Edited November 6, 2017 by (XB1)bigsnake84

[tarfeef101]

19 minutes ago, ScribbleClash said:

The channeling change wouldn't really influence current melee builds, but open up a new path. So I am believing you're saying that granting more survivability through combos would be adding to the already staggering power of melee too much. I honestly gotta say, this is due to a very few mods and their faults should not stop the possibility of making combos more engaging.

Unfortunately, those few mods (meming strike, blood rush, combo duration, condition overload) aren't really going anywhere, and until they're at least changed, buffing melee is kinda just not feasible. 

[ScribbleClash]

Just now, Kainosh said:

You have abilities, slams, and you can position yourself so that only ONE enemy is in front of you.  Most combos provide enough CC to use them in a tight crowd.

If you get shot and feel like its not going to end well, retreat and lure enemies into a better position.

Same happens in DMC series. You cant simply stand there and do your combos...need to dodge and kill most annoying enemies first.

Slams more likely lead to ground finishers rather than letting you continue a combo due to the nature of finishers taking precedence over whatever else you're trying to do up close to an enemy. I'm really just trying to focus on the use of combos, but to be honest I've never noticed them applying CC at all. Whenever I CC'ed an enemy with melee it's usualy a blast or impact proc.

My experiences with DMC, Ninja Gaiden and Bayonetta have shown however, that after a dodge you're straight back in action and at them with more combos. In warframe however, the transition out of a combo is anything but fluent (as @(Xbox One)bigsnake84 mentions below).

4 minutes ago, (Xbox One)bigsnake84 said:

Depends on the combo. Some combos feel like they lock you in for too long or keep you in place while others flow with movement. Thats why I agree that some combos should be tweaked. Probably in a way that favors mobility.

It's why my most recent favorite stance has been Final Harbinger on sword & shields.

P.S. I just thought about the melee camera auto aim thing, maybe that could be part of the mobility problem. I have mine on and sometimes I think it harms more than helps. Going to turn it off for a while to see.

Since I am on PC, I always leave aim assist off. At least on PC it is mostly a hinderance rather than an assisting tool.

[ScribbleClash]

Just now, tarfeef101 said:

Unfortunately, those few mods (meming strike, blood rush, combo duration, condition overload) aren't really going anywhere, and until they're at least changed, buffing melee is kinda just not feasible. 

This should never ever be a criteria to hold back advancement of the game. Considering changes in the past, it also usualy doesn't. I am strongly opposed to the idea that 'broken' mechanics (this case mods) should stop all developments in the same field as they occupy. Thus I feel we have to agree, to strongly disagree on this matter.

[(PSN)fullblast35]

channeling is used mostly to heal because thats what player base feels like doing.  DE just needs to give a reason to use it more often.