Once again, why can't Titania have her sentinels in Razorwing?

[Enfo]

With how tiny she gets, and how clunky the controls are near the ground, why are we forced to go around and pick up loot with her while in razorwing?

I don't see how it would affect any core gameplay or balancing having her have sentinels available to her in this state as you spend most of your time in the air and not near the ground.

 

Is this an impossible addition or what is it that prevents her to have pets/sentinels out during Razorwing?

[(PSN)BlitzKeir]

Reb asked this of Steve on-camera, and Steve said you don't deserve to fly forever. Steve hates birds. Remember the bird that took 3 years to make it into a build? Yeah, that was Steve. If Steve had his way, that bird would still be unemployed. What an avianist jerk.

[Doomsknightmare]

Because she needs some love : Aviator cant affect Razorwing, no sentinels assist in Razoring, Weird hitbox detect in Razoring, low energy pool for a caster like her...

[Genji]

TFW you realize the devs have more against archwing & archwing like things than we do...

 

Honestly it might just because it is more of the ability being a watered down cut and paste from classic archwing mode vs a deliberate cut of the companions.

 

 

[Enfo]

1 minute ago, Genji said:

TFW you realize the devs have more against archwing & archwing like things than we do...

 

Honestly it might just because it is more of the ability being a watered down cut and paste from classic archwing mode vs a deliberate cut of the companions.

 

 

 

Certainly feels like it's just a copy/pasted archwing without the bother to make it compatible with companions...

[Spot.]

Better question. Why can't we have the same with archwing in the plains as well, or just archwing in general?

[(PSN)Amu_Lambo_Ginga]

What about people with Kubrows and Kavats?

I mention a fix to this in my post:

 

Edited November 14, 2017 by (PS4)Amu_Lambo_Ginga

[nickelshark]

It's probably because when you use razorwing, you are essentially in archwing mod and companions weren't (insert tech term here) into archwing and they didn't bother to add it for her specifically.

Or maybe they can't do to some reason although I'm sure they could find a way if they tried.

[Birdframe_Prime]

9 hours ago, Enfo said:

With how tiny she gets, and how clunky the controls are near the ground, why are we forced to go around and pick up loot with her while in razorwing?

Okay, explanation of the creation of Archwing and the implementation of it in regular game play, specifically referring to Titania's Razorwing:

As a quick reference, Enfo here is correct:

8 hours ago, Enfo said:

Certainly feels like it's just a copy/pasted archwing without the bother to make it compatible with companions...

In regular games, for example Overwatch with Mercy's newest Valkyrie ultimate ability, the game designers create 'flying' characters by working into the game engine a function that is able to toggle gravity on and off and grant the player 3D movement with a specific switch to their control set that will control this new movement. It needs specific things like 'preservation of momentum' settings and the ability to move the character in relation to the Game Space rather than the Navigation Mesh (the thing that defines where Gravity is, what is a walk-able surface, what is a wall etc.) and this is, understandably, a bit of work.

When DE created Archwing, they did not do it this way. DE designed a secondary engine specifically pertaining to Archwing, defining the game space, scaling, movement and controls without needing to break apart their existing in-game engine. It is, in fact, a separate mode.

The issue here is that things like Loot had to function differently too, if you were in an Archwing mission, Loot couldn't have gravity otherwise it would drop right down to the bottom of the skybox you were in, out of the map. Archwings were given their own native Vacuum to help them suck up loot while it was in this zero-grav state, and everything worked while in archwing mode.

Unfortunately... This meant they ran into trouble when the fan-base said 'but you have trailers where we go from regular mode to archwing mode and back again, why can we not do this?'

So they created Sharkwing, the underwater variant, as a test for 'gating' frames in and out of archwing mode. Basically, by passing through a specific 'gate' such as the area around a defined stretch of water, it would toggle you into Archwing mode and give you archwing controls and physics. You were separate from the main game, yes, but because you were in the same game space they could make things like your guns shoot enemies, enemies still know you were there, and other similar things. But, importantly, they couldn't make Companions follow you.

Why? Because the companions were like the Enemies; they existed only on the Navigation Mesh or in the Archwing mode, not both, they had never been accounted for in the Space Archwing mode, so there was nothing in the archwing engine that allowed for them to exist once you switched over to it.

DE Then experimented further, bringing in gates like the ones we currently see in the Kuva Fortress, that put us into Space Archwing. And finally, as a test, used an Ability as a toggle to put Titania into full Archwing mode. (As a side note, Wukong was also a test for this, Cloud Walker is a heavily-limited form of archwing.)

Still, though, Archwing Mode does not have a function for companions, it never has. So Titania can't bring them with her. It's the same with Vacuum for the loot, Archwing has its own built in vacuum, it will draw any loot to you that isn't effected by Gravity. Sadly, in mission, Gravity is still on, so it doesn't work either.

It's this difference, the fact that Archwing is still a separate Mode, that limits Titania. She can't use any command that requires her to be on the Navigation Mesh, like 'press X to revive' or activate life support, pick up a core or datamass, open a door, use a console... it's not because she's small, scaling has never stopped anything, that's why the enemies seem to randomly change size when we do stealth finishers on them, they shrink to the animation size, or grow to it, depending. It's because she's disconnected from regular mode.

So, tl;dr

They are two different physics modes in the game that are not directly compatible and each mode will prevent some of the functions of the other from working.

To fix this, DE would have to perform a major overhaul of the base game engine to incorporate the Archwing engine into it at the core level, not as an add on that it currently is. And so, as long as going into Archwing Mode anywhere in the game means switching from one mode to the other, we will never get the ability for Sentinels or Pets to follow Titania, nor will we get a working loot vacuum while we're in that mode.

[Enfo]

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Okay, explanation of the creation of Archwing and the implementation of it in regular game play, specifically referring to Titania's Razorwing:

As a quick reference, Enfo here is correct:

In regular games, for example Overwatch with Mercy's newest Valkyrie ultimate ability, the game designers create 'flying' characters by working into the game engine a function that is able to toggle gravity on and off and grant the player 3D movement with a specific switch to their control set that will control this new movement. It needs specific things like 'preservation of momentum' settings and the ability to move the character in relation to the Game Space rather than the Navigation Mesh (the thing that defines where Gravity is, what is a walk-able surface, what is a wall etc.) and this is, understandably, a bit of work.

When DE created Archwing, they did not do it this way. DE designed a secondary engine specifically pertaining to Archwing, defining the game space, scaling, movement and controls without needing to break apart their existing in-game engine. It is, in fact, a separate mode.

The issue here is that things like Loot had to function differently too, if you were in an Archwing mission, Loot couldn't have gravity otherwise it would drop right down to the bottom of the skybox you were in, out of the map. Archwings were given their own native Vacuum to help them suck up loot while it was in this zero-grav state, and everything worked while in archwing mode.

Unfortunately... This meant they ran into trouble when the fan-base said 'but you have trailers where we go from regular mode to archwing mode and back again, why can we not do this?'

So they created Sharkwing, the underwater variant, as a test for 'gating' frames in and out of archwing mode. Basically, by passing through a specific 'gate' such as the area around a defined stretch of water, it would toggle you into Archwing mode and give you archwing controls and physics. You were separate from the main game, yes, but because you were in the same game space they could make things like your guns shoot enemies, enemies still know you were there, and other similar things. But, importantly, they couldn't make Companions follow you.

Why? Because the companions were like the Enemies; they existed only on the Navigation Mesh or in the Archwing mode, not both, they had never been accounted for in the Space Archwing mode, so there was nothing in the archwing engine that allowed for them to exist once you switched over to it.

DE Then experimented further, bringing in gates like the ones we currently see in the Kuva Fortress, that put us into Space Archwing. And finally, as a test, used an Ability as a toggle to put Titania into full Archwing mode. (As a side note, Wukong was also a test for this, Cloud Walker is a heavily-limited form of archwing.)

Still, though, Archwing Mode does not have a function for companions, it never has. So Titania can't bring them with her. It's the same with Vacuum for the loot, Archwing has its own built in vacuum, it will draw any loot to you that isn't effected by Gravity. Sadly, in mission, Gravity is still on, so it doesn't work either.

It's this difference, the fact that Archwing is still a separate Mode, that limits Titania. She can't use any command that requires her to be on the Navigation Mesh, like 'press X to revive' or activate life support, pick up a core or datamass, open a door, use a console... it's not because she's small, scaling has never stopped anything, that's why the enemies seem to randomly change size when we do stealth finishers on them, they shrink to the animation size, or grow to it, depending. It's because she's disconnected from regular mode.

So, tl;dr

They are two different physics modes in the game that are not directly compatible and each mode will prevent some of the functions of the other from working.

To fix this, DE would have to perform a major overhaul of the base game engine to incorporate the Archwing engine into it at the core level, not as an add on that it currently is. And so, as long as going into Archwing Mode anywhere in the game means switching from one mode to the other, we will never get the ability for Sentinels or Pets to follow Titania, nor will we get a working loot vacuum while we're in that mode.

That doesn't really make sense since Archwings by default have a bigger vacuum range and Itzal has a massive vacuum skill. If it's treated as an archwing why can't they just give her a bigger vacuum range and neglect the pet aspect? I don't see how it's such a big deal if adding companions is "not possible".

[Birdframe_Prime]

So, before I get into this fully, let me be clear;

DE could 100% fix Titania's vacuum. The reason they don't, and haven't, is the sheer amount of effort involved in it.

They would have to either programme in the same form of loot gathering that a Sentinel has (which works in gravity) into the archwing engine, or they would have to programme in the loot gathering that archwing has into the main game engine.

This would take time, effort, and only fix one problem, which currently is one that is not the highest on their priorities.

It's entirely possible, I was simply explaining why it doesn't work.

That said, let's get into that explanation a little further;

1 hour ago, Enfo said:

That doesn't really make sense since Archwings by default have a bigger vacuum range and Itzal has a massive vacuum skill. If it's treated as an archwing why can't they just give her a bigger vacuum range and neglect the pet aspect? I don't see how it's such a big deal if adding companions is "not possible".

Because, and I did say this, the vacuum on archwing relies entirely on the loot having zero gravity physics. As the loot in game has gravity, it cannot work. That was the point. Titania's Razorwing technically does have vacuum. It just doesn't work on the loot in the main game because it doesn't function the same way as main game vacuum.

Vacuum isn't just a state of 'on' and 'off', it's dependent on what it's collecting.

If you think about it this way, it's the difference between using a real vacuum to take a ball bearing away from a piece of metal, versus taking a powerfully magnetic ball bearing away from the piece of metal. You can't vacuum the magnet off the metal, but you can vacuum the plain metal ball. Physics is different on the two objects.

Loot in archwing has no physics to make it go anywhere, so can be drawn to you by a passive vacuum dragging it towards you by imparting physics-based momentum. However, in the regular game the loot has physics that force it to fall towards the floor, relative to the nav-mesh with collision on objects and other things. It's effectively magnetised to the floor. What Sentinel vacuum does is specifically tag the loot you can pick up and displace it, moving the loot to your sentinel without turning off the physics, and thus in range of the pick-up distance on your player avatar. Basically the same system that allows you to jump and lift away from the floor is what allows your sentinel to pick up loot.

Since DE can't turn off the gravity physics on their loot when in the regular game, because it would make it fly around whenever somebody bumps into it, or an ability or explosion grants it momentum (just imagine the chaos of every piece of loot bouncing off the walls, never falling down, never slowing down every time Titania went into Razorwing mode...), so the innate vacuum on the archwing status of Razorwing can't function.

Again, it's 100% possible to fix.

It would just be time consuming and a lot of effort just for this specific issue. That's why they haven't done it yet.

[(PSN)psycofang]

Basically the loot in archwing mode -the mode Titania razorwing functions on- is not the same loot as the loot in non archwing missions. They function the same but the programming to make them spawn, hit 1 in 1 form of space but 0 in another because they are not the same loot.

So theyd have to give an archwing programmed ability a very unique vacuum that functions on picking things up off the ground in a summoned box space that toggles gravity.

That sounds like a simple nightmare.

[Zhyzak]

Sentinel Vacuum needs to continue working during Razorwing, even if nothing else functions.

Even if it's technically not actually the pet, the code just needs to check. Has Sentinel? Yes. Has Vacuum? If yes, apply 11.5m Vacuum to Razorwing Titania. Remove upon exiting Razorwing.

Although that's really just a bandaid, people with kubrow/kavats probably want full functionality... just like for any other frame.

 

It's really annoying having to divebomb smash your face into the ground trying to loot things, and collect orbs.

Compounding the above, you are forced to divebomb Energy Orbs because flying through a teammate's Zenurik Energizing Dash doesn't seem to work on a Razorwing Titania at all.

On 11/13/2017 at 7:31 PM, (PS4)BlitzKeir said:

Steve said you don't deserve to fly forever.

I realize that's a result of them not wanting Titania to maintain energy and fly forever, but let's be real. She's squishy as hell outside of Razorwing, and already makes many large gameplay sacrifices (Can't carry objectives like mobile defense, Thrax Toxin, etc. Can't revive teammates without exiting it. etc.) They shouldn't act like Razorwing is SO awesome that it needs to be so penalized and time limited. Letting us use what any other normal frame has access to for energy (Vacuum'ing orbs, Energizing Dash, etc) would go a long way.

All of those things I've mentioned really interrupt "combat efficiency" in a way no other frame has to deal with. We have to locate, swoop down and smash into those blue orbs, often getting slowed if you clip the ground, all of which is messing with your camera if it zooms in due to the ground.

Edited November 17, 2017 by Zhyzak

[yles9056]

@Thaylien

While it's true that adding a new feature may not be as easy as people think, it's not a good reason for not doing so.

Using bugs as an example: There are a lot of tiny bugs in this game. But just because they look tiny doesn't mean they can be fixed easily. They may involved a lot of coding or hard to be found. DE could have left these tiny bugs as it is. Why spend so much effort on fixing these bugs as long as they don't cause critical issues? Yet, we get hotfix frequently to fix these bugs(Thank you DE). So I really don't think coding difficulties is a valid argument.

Also, physics is not an issue at all. Itzal's vacuum ability works just fine on PoE, where gravity exists.

Edited November 17, 2017 by yles9056

[Birdframe_Prime]

4 hours ago, yles9056 said:

Also, physics is not an issue at all. Itzal's vacuum ability works just fine on PoE, where gravity exists.

Because, and this is very important, DE designed a specific type of Archwing for the Plains. Notice how it's different from the other two iterations of Sharkwing and Spacewing.

And no, I'm not saying it's an excuse not to do it, I'm saying it's the reason they haven't done it YET.

I'm getting a lot of replies that seem to think I'm saying 'this is how it is and this is how it will always be'. I'm not. I'm saying 'this is why it is what it is right now'.

Everyone is so upset that Titania's Razorwing is like this and want to know why, I'm only explaining that. I'm not DE's voice on policy, just an observer who has had this conversation 18 times before in the last three months alone. (If I had to make a guess, though, it's still fairly low on the priority list. Titania's own rework schedule is probably listed based on her release order and on whether the problem makes her unusable. Currently... she's still functional, and there are still frames that are older that have never had updates, but desperately need them.)

Now, knowing that it's a massive undertaking, that DE is aware of it as an issue, maybe there could be some more constructive discussion around Titania?

8 hours ago, Zhyzak said:

Sentinel Vacuum needs to continue working during Razorwing, even if nothing else functions.

I would direct you to earlier discussion up the thread, it's nothing to do with the pets as to why Vacuum currently doesn't work with Razorwing, and has everything to do with how DE made Archwing in the first place. The game engine needs updating, it's not just some 'on/off' toggle, pets don't work as an extension of this basic problem, not as a cause of it.

[Zhyzak]

13 hours ago, Thaylien said:

I would direct you to earlier discussion up the thread, it's nothing to do with the pets as to why Vacuum currently doesn't work with Razorwing, and has everything to do with how DE made Archwing in the first place. The game engine needs updating, it's not just some 'on/off' toggle, pets don't work as an extension of this basic problem, not as a cause of it.

And I would direct you to an earlier post right above that one. It's very clearly possible to make it happen.

18 hours ago, yles9056 said:

@Thaylien

Also, physics is not an issue at all. Itzal's vacuum ability works just fine on PoE, where gravity exists.

"Pets don't work" is also irrelevant, as I stated that I'd even be happy if the pet remained disabled, so long as we could still get a Vacuum applied to Titania during Razorwing, because of how it particularly interferes with that gameplay.

It's not the ideal solution, since it'd suck for kubrows/kavats that wouldn't get anything, but everybody knows DE cares less about them anyway since sentinels are still meta with Vacuum.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Zhyzak said:

And I would direct you to an earlier post right above that one. It's very clearly possible to make it happen.

Except if it was, they would have done it already. DE aren't stupid, they know this problem exists, they know their game engine better than anyone, they created it. If it was a simple matter of on/off in the coding it would be done already, it would have shipped with Titania.

You're missing the entire point of this; it's not that pets don't work that makes vacuum not work. It's the physics of the loot that makes vacuum not work.

Because Archwing and the regular game were programmed separately as two different physics states of the engine, trying to combine them has been like oil and water, the vacuum programmed into Archwing mode only functions on loot that has no gravity, the vacuum programmed into the regular game mode only affects loot that has gravity.

That's the issue; not that they don't have vacuum, archwing and razorwing has vacuum already, it's just the wrong kind. Itzal's Cosmic Crush, that specific ability, uses the right kind, but as a pulse form, not as a constant 'always on' form, you'll notice that if you don't use Cosmic Crush, the Itzal doesn't suck up loot at all. It should, it has around 30m of base vacuum on loot in zero-g settings. Why do you think that is?