Sortie, why the limitation?

[Fallen_Echo]

So i would like to ask whats the point of limiting the sorties to those who have done the second dream especially since the lenses got removed already.

This is the only generally challanging content in the whole game (not counting endless and raids) where someone could go and show off what they know.

A radiation sortie can still suprise people as they die from an inaros pushing sand in the eyes of his teammates or someone with a rad proc shot an explosive near the console.

I would like to ask to remove this limitation as it would make sorties more accessible and now it serves no purpose.

[Randomeer]

Because sorties can take place in areas unlocked by Second Dream and The War Within.

Edited November 27, 2017 by Randomeer

[krc473]

6 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

So i would like to ask whats the point of limiting the sorties to those who have done the second dream especially since the lenses got removed already.

For a start: they are restricted to people that have done TWW, not SD.

Because you can get riven mods which are not revealed to you until after TWW. And, as stated above: you cannot access some of the locations without doing TWW first.

So, the limitation has a purpose.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Randomeer said:

Because sorties can take place in areas unlocked by Second Dream and The War Within.

Which areas? I only know that lua is restrictes but if no sortie takes place on lua then it doesnt make sense.

1 hour ago, krc473 said:

For a start: they are restricted to people that have done TWW, not SD.

Because you can get riven mods which are not revealed to you until after TWW. And, as stated above: you cannot access some of the locations without doing TWW first.

So, the limitation has a purpose.

But then why i can trade rivens to mr2 players and everybody who havent even done the Natah quest? This limitation too doesnt make sense.

Lua i know is restricted but if the entire sortie takes place on everywhere but not on lua than its pointless to activate this limit.

[krc473]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Which areas? I only know that lua is restrictes but if no sortie takes place on lua then it doesnt make sense.

Kuva Fortress.

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

But then why i can trade rivens to mr2 players and everybody who havent even done the Natah quest?

Riven mods should be trade limited. If you are not the MR (or higher) on the riven, you cannot trade for it. An MR2 player cannot use a riven.

 

Ignoring the fact that you claim there is no reason for the limitation. Can you give a good reason to remove it?

- I do not see anywhere you have put a good reason to remove the limit. Just "it serves no purpose" (which it does, but nevermind that)

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, krc473 said:

Kuva Fortress.

Riven mods should be trade limited. If you are not the MR (or higher) on the riven, you cannot trade for it. An MR2 player cannot use a riven.

 

Ignoring the fact that you claim there is no reason for the limitation. Can you give a good reason to remove it?

- I do not see anywhere you have put a good reason to remove the limit. Just "it serves no purpose" (which it does, but nevermind that)

Well it gives access to one of the most challanging content in game.

Apart from not serving any prupose if the sortie takes place on either kuva fortress or lua this is the best reason.

Most sortie rewards are trash for high mr, long time players but not for newbies this is too could be a good reason to give access to sorties for all.

Forma, potatoes, boosters, ayatans, endo,exilus adapter, these rewards are mostly needed when you are new. The only rewards what are there and feels like they were created for "endgame" players are kuva, rivens, affinity booster and the legendary core.

 

Edit: forgot to mention that you can farm kuva without ever doing any kuva related quest too

Edited November 27, 2017 by Fallen_Echo

[OvisCaedo]

Sorties CAN take place on both Lua and Kuva Fortress though. The very existence of these places could be considered something of a spoiler, though I don't think this is really a game where that means much.

Also: You say high MR, but technically you only have to be MR 5 to get access to the sorties, since that's what you need to finish the main quest line. None of the things IN the quest line are very hard or time consuming, so I don't think it's really that much of a hurdle to be expected to cross.

Edited November 27, 2017 by OvisCaedo

[Fallen_Echo]

18 minutes ago, OvisCaedo said:

Sorties CAN take place on both Lua and Kuva Fortress though. The very existence of these places could be considered something of a spoiler, though I don't think this is really a game where that means much.

Also: You say high MR, but technically you only have to be MR 5 to get access to the sorties, since that's what you need to finish the main quest line. None of the things IN the quest line are very hard or time consuming, so I don't think it's really that much of a hurdle to be expected to cross.

Well thats why i say that the limit should be removed when the sortie does not reward spoiler items unobtainable from any other source and does not take place in an area what is considered spoiler.

Which means you can freely do any sortie as long as you dont get lenses and it doea not take place on lua and the fortress.

[Emulad0or]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Well it gives access to one of the most challanging content in game.

 

If the player can't even do the SD and TWW, he's not ready for Sorties. Several people in public are not ready and can still do it, can you imagine the horror it would be to go to a sortie just to find 3 MR7 or less trying to fight a level 100 Lethantis with Armor Buff? They have better stuff to do than Sorties, like getting the mods, leveling them up, do the SD and TWW... 

[Fallen_Echo]

41 minutes ago, Emulad0or said:

If the player can't even do the SD and TWW, he's not ready for Sorties. Several people in public are not ready and can still do it, can you imagine the horror it would be to go to a sortie just to find 3 MR7 or less trying to fight a level 100 Lethantis with Armor Buff? They have better stuff to do than Sorties, like getting the mods, leveling them up, do the SD and TWW... 

Im not saying that they cant do it, i say they havent done it yet and seriously mr ranks still dont mean anything. I have seen mr 20 players struggling against armored infestes while i was mass murdering them at mr8 with the hek.

I have seen mr 1 players getting better mission results than mr 10 players on akkad.

And to be fair if they want to struggle, let them. This is a pub run, everybody who chooses pub knows that theres no rule on who will they play with. You could get into an energy reduction assasination with 3 casters or get people using rank0 weapons against elemental enchanted mobs. The general rule of pub runs apply to sorties too, if you cant do it alone you have no right to complain about the incompetence of your teammates and if you can than theres no need to complain about how your teammates cant handle it.

I actually remeber bringing an mr5 player who just finished SD and we had fun, surely he dies some times but thats part of the experience, showing him what is the level he should tackle easily was great fun for me and food experience for him.

[djternan]

If you can't be bothered to complete TWW then you're probably not ready for sorties.  Like you said, it's challenging content and doesn't need to be flooded with players who clearly can't handle the challenge.

[krc473]

8 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Most sortie rewards are trash for high mr, long time players but not for newbies this is too could be a good reason to give access to sorties for all.

You seem to be confused. High MR is completely meaningless, to the point it bears no mention. Long time players of any MR are likely going to find the rewards fairly useless - I do sorties for boosters and kuva.

I have clan mates that are reasonably high MR (16+), they think all the rewards are useful.

8 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Apart from not serving any prupose if the sortie takes place on either kuva fortress or lua this is the best reason.

That means sometimes there is a purpose.

8 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Well it gives access to one of the most challanging content in game.

I can see an issue here. If you get a squad of four completely under modded people attempting to do sorties, and constantly failing, how much fun will they have? Failing once or twice is about ‘learning’. Failing 10 times in a row is just a miserable time. **I do not deny that some higher MR people will have this issue, and some lower won’t.

The only place a pre-TWW player can farm kuva is the bounty missions. I do not count siphon missions, because they cannot start them, or complete them. They need a taxi.

 

As for a reason for the limitation:

• It gives people something to work towards. 
• It encourages people to do the ‘story’ missions.

I would say, there is more reason to keep the limit than remove it.

[Fallen_Echo]

31 minutes ago, krc473 said:

You seem to be confused. High MR is completely meaningless, to the point it bears no mention. Long time players of any MR are likely going to find the rewards fairly useless - I do sorties for boosters and kuva.

I have clan mates that are reasonably high MR (16+), they think all the rewards are useful.

Meanwhile i was only mr 12 when most of the sortie rewards were so useless to me i didnt even bother doing them, but i guess this is dependant on the people.

32 minutes ago, krc473 said:

That means sometimes there is a purpose.

Yes there is when the sorte takes place on the lua or the kuva fortress. Im fine when newbies cant do sortie when they need to reach those areas before with the respective quests but not with the ones where you never take your step on those maps.

35 minutes ago, krc473 said:

I can see an issue here. If you get a squad of four completely under modded people attempting to do sorties, and constantly failing, how much fun will they have? Failing once or twice is about ‘learning’. Failing 10 times in a row is just a miserable time. **I do not deny that some higher MR people will have this issue, and some lower won’t.

The only place a pre-TWW player can farm kuva is the bounty missions. I do not count siphon missions, because they cannot start them, or complete them. They need a taxi.

Well the same can happen on any mission (especially on spy missions). Its part of the experience and we have seen many people coming up to the forums just to complain about how X sortie condition is unfair. You either manage it or fail, no biggie.

I count in all zones what you can reach one way or another. The fact that they are giving out kuva on the plains, you can taxi people to kuva runs, you can trade rivens as soon as you reach mr 2 and you can get some rivens by doing quests with plat buyed frames tells me its not that important to keep stuff spoiler free, BUT that does not mean i think everything should be fully unlocked. IF the kuva fortress and the lua needs to be soo much secret than let it be, but every other mission not using them should be avaible to everybody.

[krc473]

17 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

The fact that they are giving out kuva on the plains

This seems like a bad idea. Given that they removed Kuva as a requirement for Gara, because it was unavailable to new players. Then put it as a PoE drop. As for a taxi, yeah, I never understood this. If I cannot taxi an MR0 to a Mercury Sortie mission, why can I taxi them to Kuva? Given both technically have the same requirements. But this is another topic.

17 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

but i guess this is dependant on the people.

Play time is more important than MR. I have many hours, MR24, the only thing I want from sorties are resource boosters (for fishing). Nothing else.

17 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Yes there is when the sorte takes place on the lua or the kuva fortress.

Lua and Kuva fortress are fairly common. People that have not done SD cannot partake in today's Sorties for example - second one is Lua. A universal lock out is easier than having to run a check every single time someone tries to start a Sortie mission. I had a look at my tracker over the last 7 days:

• Lua: 4 days
• Kuva Fortress: 1 day
• Completed by anyone: 2 days

This is why we need the universal lock. In a seven day period, only two days had sorties that anyone could complete. Would you be happy with only being able to participate in 30% of the sorties? I sure wouldn't.

EDIT: I get that this is a very small sample, and potentially not representative of what actually happens. But it is real data, for the last week of sorties.

Edited November 27, 2017 by krc473
Added Edit text.

[ArbitUHM]

Is it a big deal to do SD or TWW? Like is it time intensive or resource intensive? Honest question, I don't remember.

IMHO the lore-based missions are some of the best and just experiencing the story is a reward in itself. Just... do them.

[krc473]

11 minutes ago, ArbitUHM said:

Is it a big deal to do SD or TWW?

I mean, I had to wait ages to do them 

But no, they are fairly easy missions, probably get them done in an hour or so each.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, krc473 said:

This seems like a bad idea. Given that they removed Kuva as a requirement for Gara, because it was unavailable to new players. Then put it as a PoE drop. As for a taxi, yeah, I never understood this. If I cannot taxi an MR0 to a Mercury Sortie mission, why can I taxi them to Kuva? Given both technically have the same requirements. But this is another topic.

Honestly the only reason why there is kuva on the plains is to "appeal" to the veterans. Its not there to be used for everybody, its there to give another reason why poe is great (subjective).

1 hour ago, krc473 said:

Play time is more important than MR. I have many hours, MR24, the only thing I want from sorties are resource boosters (for fishing). Nothing else.

I know, even my original comment upper says high mr, long time players. I suppeso i should have used / instead of ,

2 hours ago, krc473 said:

Lua and Kuva fortress are fairly common. People that have not done SD cannot partake in today's Sorties for example - second one is Lua. A universal lock out is easier than having to run a check every single time someone tries to start a Sortie mission. I had a look at my tracker over the last 7 days:

• Lua: 4 days
• Kuva Fortress: 1 day
• Completed by anyone: 2 days

This is why we need the universal lock. In a seven day period, only two days had sorties that anyone could complete. Would you be happy with only being able to participate in 30% of the sorties? I sure wouldn't.

EDIT: I get that this is a very small sample, and potentially not representative of what actually happens. But it is real data, for the last week of sorties.

I dont think it would be much harder to make it work like this.

Currently it checks if you done sd/tww and if yes you are in.

It would only take a line of code to say if map is lua/poe check for sd/tww done.

[(PSN)Blue_Sins]

Il y a 14 heures, Fallen_Echo a dit :

So i would like to ask whats the point of limiting the sorties to those who have done the second dream.

Because we don't want to play sortie with a guy who start the game 2 day ago ;')

[krc473]

8 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

I dont think it would be much harder to make it work like this.

Ease of doing it is not the issue here. It’s not a particularly complicated task.

 

The bigger issue: if only 30% (give or take) of the sorties can be completed by anyone, what is the point?

This week, you can do sorties on Tuesday and Friday. Next week you can do them Monday, Tuesday and Sunday. As someone wanting to complete sorties, how annoying would that be?

[Fallen_Echo]

30 minutes ago, krc473 said:

Ease of doing it is not the issue here. It’s not a particularly complicated task.

 

The bigger issue: if only 30% (give or take) of the sorties can be completed by anyone, what is the point?

This week, you can do sorties on Tuesday and Friday. Next week you can do them Monday, Tuesday and Sunday. As someone wanting to complete sorties, how annoying would that be?

Well i cant deny that would be annoying, but at the same time it would motivate some people. Currently newbies dont do sorties because they most likely dont even know about them, but if they would be open (and advertised) from the the start many would try to do them and when they see they need SD and TWW for certain variant they would feel pressed to unlock the whole sortie system.

[krc473]

2 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Well i cant deny that would be annoying, but at the same time it would motivate some people. Currently newbies dont do sorties because they most likely dont even know about them, but if they would be open (and advertised) from the the start many would try to do them and when they see they need SD and TWW for certain variant they would feel pressed to unlock the whole sortie system.

The other issue I can see would be weapon restrictions. How many new players have a weapon from each type?

 

I guess an alternative is just that sorties are advertised to new players. With a catch of “complete TWW” first. I think it would just be too frustrating not being able to complete many sorties. New players lack the maxed frames, the correct weapon types (I.e. one of each), the ability to even pick the missions, and possibly even the inclination to do them. So, there are more issues than just “you cannot access some planets yet because of quests”. Now, I am not saying everyone that has done TWW will have access to everything, just that there is potential for higher MR people to have more stuff.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 minute ago, krc473 said:

The other issue I can see would be weapon restrictions. How many new players have a weapon from each type?

 

I guess an alternative is just that sorties are advertised to new players. With a catch of “complete TWW” first. I think it would just be too frustrating not being able to complete many sorties. New players lack the maxed frames, the correct weapon types (I.e. one of each), the ability to even pick the missions, and possibly even the inclination to do them. So, there are more issues than just “you cannot access some planets yet because of quests”. Now, I am not saying everyone that has done TWW will have access to everything, just that there is potential for higher MR people to have more stuff.

The last player i wanted to bring to sorties used a mag prime, soma prime, lex and an atterax. He was mr 3 if i remember right. With enough backing/cash you can get a lot of stuff free from people who already have enough of everything.

But i guess you are right the best would be to advertise the sorties as challanges for those experienced players who have done TWW.

[krc473]

7 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

But i guess you are right the best would be to advertise the sorties as challanges for those experienced players who have done TWW.

Personally, my ideal solution would be that everyone can do sorties. I do believe that most of the prizes are far more useful to people with less game time. But the logistics of the current system do not really allow it.

We could have a noob friendly sortie set. One that can be completed by new players - keeping the current rewards. And a second set of more challenging, and more rewarding veteran sorties. (Maybe it’s just me, but o find the sorties way too easy)

• Noob sorties would have a little message in their window saying “complete TWW and hit MR10” to access the more rewarding veteran sorties.
• MR10 is just an example.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Mastery rank? ..uh... Oh.. So the "once every 24 hours" doesn't bother you, then? Ok

Edited November 28, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, krc473 said:

Personally, my ideal solution would be that everyone can do sorties. I do believe that most of the prizes are far more useful to people with less game time. But the logistics of the current system do not really allow it.

We could have a noob friendly sortie set. One that can be completed by new players - keeping the current rewards. And a second set of more challenging, and more rewarding veteran sorties. (Maybe it’s just me, but o find the sorties way too easy)

• Noob sorties would have a little message in their window saying “complete TWW and hit MR10” to access the more rewarding veteran sorties.
• MR10 is just an example.

Well.something for something, this would be the ideal way to implement such system. Reaching X mr (or better X playtime) would be a good way to unlock harder content for better rewards.

I think this threas has run its course, if theres a mod around i would like to ask him/her to close it please.