Do we really need new content ingame?

[DiabolusUrsus]

3 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Sure. I saw your last message yesterday evening, went to sleep and only answered today. It's ok.

I bring it up because I'm posting elsewhere, so I wanted to be clear that I'm not simply dropping the discussion.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Just now, DiabolusUrsus said:

I bring it up because I'm posting elsewhere, so I wanted to be clear that I'm not simply dropping the discussion.

Very considerate of you. Appreciated. But don't worry about it.

[BlackCoMerc]

48 minutes ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

-__- How long do you think it would take to conjure this thing into the existing mechanics and make it work?

 And by the way, open maps are literally endless missions on a huge tile. But with weird spawning mechanics, low enemy density and no scaling. Basically the same thing, but worse in every sense.

Let's not "dream" at all? Let's talk about what is possible with the current game build. Please. Seriously.

Edit: I mean, it's ok to dream. But you gotta be able to connect the dots with reality... somehow. I just realized, I don't know how to do it myself, but anyway. Let's at least try to be real here.

That's a fair point. Endless Missions that start at higher levels, without the wait, would be easy to implement given extant systems. And from there, you have only to add reward tables to make it End Game content.

So yeah, I see your point: as a quick fix, realistic solution, this sort of works. Sure.

Longer term, I'd like to see more than this. But in the short term...sure, why not? Ought to be easy enough.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

8 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

That's a fair point. Endless Missions that start at higher levels, without the wait, would be easy to implement given extant systems. And from there, you have only to add reward tables to make it End Game content.

So yeah, I see your point: as a quick fix, realistic solution, this sort of works. Sure.

Longer term, I'd like to see more than this. But in the short term...sure, why not? Ought to be easy enough.

I don't think longterm right now. I focus on immediate solutions that could be implemented as soon as possible without having to sledgehammer half of the game down.

 Longterm ideas I had involve a complete focus/operator rework from the ground up (because current focus is complete rubbish); "Solar War" invasions system; Endless Raids; Arcane armor sets with actual stats; mastery rank-based stat system for weapons ... etc. etc. Nothing of this is going to happen, so I talk about stuff that is more or less reasonable and possible.

Edited December 14, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[BlackCoMerc]

Just now, AperoBeltaTwo said:

I don't think longterm right now. I focus on immedeate solutions that could be implemented as soon as possible without having to sledgehammer half of the game.

 Longterm ideas I had involve a complete focus/operator rework from the ground up (because current focus is complete rubbish); "Solar War" invasions system; Endless Raids; Arcane armor sets with actual stats; mastery rank-based stat system for weapons ... etc. etc. Nothing of this is going to happen, so I talk about stuff that is more or less reasonable and possible.

Fair point there. And given the last few months "minimum viable product" level of effort, this is smart thinking.

DE needs to slow down and polish before releasing.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 minute ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Fair point there. And given the last few months "minimum viable product" level of effort, this is smart thinking.

DE needs to slow down and polish before releasing.

DE needs to slow down and polish what they had already released. *sadface*

[Terrornaut]

^^
But the last patch was proof they'll do that sometimes.

But then we have things like the riven system coming our way, or, Zephyr and Atlas.

[DiabolusUrsus]

10 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

*snip*

I have processed the quoted post into the following pieces of information. Please correct any interpretation errors on my part, or feel free to elaborate. These points will be repeated as I get to discussing them.

• Problem: Warframe has no adequate end-game content to warrant the power of our Warframes and weapons.
• Problem: Overly-complex or detailed end-game is unlikely to be implemented, so we can only count on refinements to endless scaling content.
• Proposed Solution: Endless scaling enemies as end-game with hard-cap to damage output to prevent players getting one-shot. End-game content offers useful but disposable rewards like Kuva, Ducats, and Arcanes to keep players coming back.
• Assertion: Players must be faced with an impossible-to-attain goal to stay engaged; human beings prefer the process of goal-chasing to the actual attainment of said goal.
• Assertion: Obtaining and upgrading gear does not count as true "progression."
• Assertion: Rebalancing player gear is more complicated and risky than buffing enemies.
• Assertion: Extensive gameplay reworks are unfeasible; Warframe is too established to change.
• Assertion: All proposed solutions must work within the constraints of the existing game.

To begin, I completely agree that the lack of an adequate end-game is a serious problem that needs to be addressed for Warframe to grow. However, I strongly disagree that we have to work within the existing status quo for an end-game to be feasible. This is Warframe we're talking about; a game that undergoes massive change on a regular basis. If there's any game where players can reasonably hope for "overhaul" style changes, Warframe is it. I'd even go as far as to say that massive overhauls are DE's go-to method of approach even when smaller and more conservative changes might be preferable. There's a strong affinity for "XYZ 2.0" instead of simple refinements. What I will concede is that Warframe has to date been served by endless missions as a player-concocted end-game.

Proposed Solution: Endless scaling enemies as end-game with hard-cap to damage output to prevent players getting one-shot. End-game content offers useful but disposable rewards like Kuva, Ducats, and Arcanes to keep players coming back.

I don't think that your proposed solution to the lack of an end-game would be all that effective, though. Player frustration with enemy scaling is not limited to a one-dimensional complaint about getting one-shot. Take out the one-shots and soon you will have players complaining about enemies being too spongy. This won't be due to players simply not having what it takes to kill spongy enemies; it will be due to the fact that simply pumping bullets into something without it dying is utterly tiresome and pointless. There are two factors to sustaining a successful power fantasy:

1. The player's ability to avoid being killed by enemies.
2. The player's ability to kill enemies.

That's it. There is no real requirement for "satisfying" enemies to kill; you really just need a powerful player character and exciting visuals to keep the player entertained.

Proof: The entire Musou franchise, [PROTOTYPE] series, Skyrim, etc.

Games like Dynasty Warriors, [PROTOTYPE], and Skyrim do not have particularly complex or satisfying enemies to kill, and feature fairly simplified control schemes, yet they sustain the player's power fantasy effectively. That doesn't go to say that I don't understand your frustration; I do. I don't find one-shotting everything throughout a mission to be very compelling either. But I have been to the higher levels where my weapon damage output is warranted, and I have found Warframe's "worthy" adversaries to be equally non-compelling.

Not just because they one-shot me. Not only because I have to CC lock them into a stupor to survive. Those are big contributing factors to my frustration, but the frustration won't simply go away if you take out because once that's gone I'm right back to fighting a Level 1 Heavy Gunner with a semi-modded gun. It doesn't matter how many hours I've poured into my perfected weapon, because the only thing I can do with it is kill the same enemies I could when I first started!

Even if you take out the one-shots, Warframe's enemies are so brain-dead and repetitive that simply letting them live longer won't bring back that feeling of freshness from when you first started for very long.

How can I be so sure? Because Warframe's enemies rely on their insane damage to counter our regenerative abilities like Blessing, etc. Take out the damage, and no matter how tanky enemies get they'll never be able to stop us because we'll become effectively unkillable. And fighting enemies that can't possibly threaten you but don't die is just as pointless and boring as fighting enemies who kill you instantly. The root of the problem is players simply being too overpowered, and the problem won't actually go away until we rip out the roots. Will it be painful? Will it be difficult? Absolutely. But it is still necessary.

Assertion: Obtaining and upgrading gear does not count as true "progression."

You presented this as a counter-point to my assertion that Warframe is already content-saturated. However, obtaining and upgrading gear is all Warframe has really offered for the entirety of its existence and yet here I am, 2K+ hours in and still playing. If collecting mods, crafting and leveling weapons, obtaining Warframes, etc. can't be counted as "progression," I don't know what can be. True, the Star Chart is relatively small. True, the available storytelling quests are limited. True, the "end-game" consists mostly of minor items on a daily checklist.

But new players are already faced with a gargantuan task of collecting all the mods they will need to formulate builds, accumulating resources for crafting, etc. The only thing that really makes that manageable is that the barrier for entry to most of the game's content is not set all that high. You get a few essential mods upgraded, collect a few Forma, some Potatoes, and you're in. You can potentially do everything the game has to offer, except for super-long endless content runs.

The "end-game" you are proposing where players must fight very spongy enemies and requiring min-maxed gear to complete efficiently sets the bar astronomically high to the point that players must accumulate complete loadouts of rare and grindy mods to compete.

Assertion: Players must be faced with an impossible-to-attain goal to stay engaged; human beings prefer the process of goal-chasing to the actual attainment of said goal.

Wrong. True, human being will lose interest in a goal as soon as they attain it, but if you simply constantly dangle a carrot in front of them without ever actually letting them taste the carrot they will simply go find another carrot. That's the problem: There isn't only one carrot. You have to give them milestones of accomplishment to let them feel like they are making progress, and simply pushing 5 levels higher in an endless run while earning some Kuva is not enough. You're effectively just recreating the Quills except you're grinding for Rivens to take down endless enemies more effectively instead of grinding for Amps to down the Teralyst faster. That's not healthy, nor is it sustainable.

Your examples are reachable dreams, because even in grindy MMOs "perfect gear" is technically attainable. Most people just don't have enough time to put in to get it. In PvP, the goal is very abstract. The very nature of the skill ceiling makes it nebulous and hard to define, and the player's assessment of progress will vary widely based on who they are playing against. Your proposed solution, on the other hand, does not have the properties necessary to emulate either of those successes. Endless scaling does not offer any hard-to-reach but literally still-attainable goal the way a grindy MMO does; you're even billing it as something to do once you already have your perfect gear. PvE enemies also cannot offer the same sort of renewable challenge that PvP does. PvE enemies can't ever be as unpredictable as human opponents, so players will simply learn to counter enemy behaviors before getting bored.

Assertion: Rebalancing player gear is more complicated and risky than buffing enemies.

Not true. I'll grant you that player reception will be a bigger factor, but nerfing player gear would really only require nerfing a handful of core mods and tweaking the stat dispositions on Rivens. DE also doesn't shy away from nerfing things when they feel it is appropriate (and the game hasn't burned down over that yet), so suffice it to say that player reception of widespread changes shouldn't be so threatening as to preclude the viability of balance overhauls. Players will complain, yes, as they always do. But they'll stop complaining when they find that things aren't all so bad as they thought they would be, and in the exceptional cases that are actually that bad their complaints will be essential to making the necessary adjustments.

Assertion: Extensive gameplay reworks are unfeasible; Warframe is too established to change.

Also not true.

Proof: Ambulas and Teralyst.

Okay, so neither example is perfect. Teralyst is hampered by divisive and repetitive Operator combat, but it has plenty of telegraphed and avoidable attacks that make the fight overall much more engaging and enjoyable than most other Warframe bosses. There's the slight hiccup of the more damaging ground-slam attack not syncing up to the telegraph correctly, but that's an implementation bug rather than a design flaw. In Ambulas' case, it is actually a perfect demonstration of my Bob example where an enemy can have all the dangerous-but-avoidable attacks in the world and it simply won't matter because it gets burst down in a few seconds.

All we would need is a more sane degree of player DPS and CC output and Ambulas would be a live example of the kinds of enemies (on a smaller scale, of course) that I would want to see fill in the elite enemy/miniboss caste of mooks alongside the trash mobs that players can mow down for their power-trip fix.

Assertion: All proposed solutions must work within the constraints of the existing game.

As should be sufficiently iterated upon above, I don't think this is true. There is always room for extensive change, and for the reasons stated above I believe that extensive change is necessary. Instead of looking at Sorties and Dark Sectors as lost causes, we should be looking at ways to refine them (along with Kuva missions, too,) into something worth playing repeatedly where players feel rewarded for doing so.

I don't have the time or energy to get more into that here right now, but hopefully this clarifies a bit why I feel that simply capping enemy damage and appropriating endless content is insufficient as an "end-game."

[ikkabotz]

As much as I really love forum issues like these discussed, I can't help but feel jaded as most all this has already been identified over and over again throughout the forums without anything changing. I really do love seeing players talking about the very same issues that have frustrated me. .but respectfully speaking when is DE going to sh*t or get off the pot with this one? This is literally pages and pages (upon other forum topics also discussing this very issue of enemy scaling and "end game" in pages and pages) all over again. It's time! I'm tired seeing threads of useful feedback getting pushed aside as a place to vent. .I think we're well beyond the "identifying" stage of problem resolution here

Edited December 15, 2017 by komoriblues

[DiabolusUrsus]

9 minutes ago, komoriblues said:

As much as I really love forum issues like these discussed, I can't help but feel jaded as most all this has already been identified over and over again throughout the forums without anything changing. I really do love seeing players talking about the very same issues that have frustrated me. .but respectfully speaking when is DE going to sh*t or get off the pot with this one? This is literally pages and pages (upon other forum topics also discussing this very issue of enemy scaling and "end game" in pages and pages) all over again. It's time! I'm tired seeing threads of useful feedback getting pushed aside as a place to vent. .I think we're well beyond the "identifying" stage of problem resolution here

They will actually do something when the money shows them that they need to. Until that happens, I'd say we are unlikely to get anything more than a... relaxed approach to developing an end-game. In my opinion, it's actually more urgent for DE to tighten up the early-game and Star Chart than it is to establish an end-game. As Apero pointed out, endless content is already here for the people who have nothing else to do. Veterans may take long breaks (I took a break for a year or so), but the next big thing will get them to at least come back and check out what's new.

My main disagreement is that it is being presented as the end-all-be-all take-it-or-leave it solution, and I don't think it will be all that sustainable long-term. Would it give vets something to do? Yes. Would it be generally well-received? Most likely. Would it be enough? Certainly not. I would also not enjoy it at all if the entry level was 150 as recommended. Level 100 enemies are already an exercise in frustration for me, for reasons I've parroted enough already.

On a different note, I've been toying with the idea of creating overhaul/refinement/polish videos instead of long forum posts. It would allow for more easily-digestible content with some opportunity for actual illustration of the concepts provided I can get together a like-minded team with the requisite skills to produce things like animations. Not really sure where to start, though.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

Corrections:

7 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Proposed Solution: Endless scaling enemies as end-game with hard-cap to damage output to prevent players getting one-shot. End-game content offers useful but disposable rewards like Kuva, Ducats, and Arcanes to keep players coming back.

Important: Rewards Useful, disposable and Rooted into the Trade System. Ducats and decent arcanes have a price in plat attached to them. Kuva is connected to the trade chat indirectly through Rivens.

7 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Assertion: Obtaining and upgrading gear does not count as true "progression."

Not exactly: Obtaining and upgrading gear that isn't Rooted into the gameplay doesn't count as true "progression". When we have melee weapons that could wipe out whole rooms with a single strike and enemies that die from being lightly sneezed upon, maxed out mods become irrelevant - because they don't affect the gameplay and capabilities of your warframes and weapons. "You can't oneshot an enemy twise." Lack of high-level enemies promotes casual gameplay as a chronical issue, removing the incentive to explore and master core mechanics of the game. It also takes away from the unique attributes of weapons, since everything dies in a single click whichever weapon you equip.

8 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Assertion: Extensive gameplay reworks are unfeasible; Warframe is too established to change.

I can't repeat myself enough on this one: Imagine the game as a huge lump of material that you're sculpting on. After four years of work the basic shapes are long set. You can't rework anything fundamentally at this point. All you could do is damage control and fine work with a chisel. Otherwise you just risk ruining the entire piece. We can't just rebalance the entire maths of the game at this point. Or suddenly "will" Warframe into being an open world game.

8 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Assertion: All proposed solutions must work within the constraints of the existing game.

Just be feasible. Basically, whenever you think of something, you should have in your head a rough idea of how to "connect the dots" - how to connect your idea with the existing gameplay. And how Devs could do it in the least number of steps.

 

 

Now on to the rest of the post.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

10 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

To begin, I completely agree that the lack of an adequate end-game is a serious problem that needs to be addressed for Warframe to grow. However, I strongly disagree that we have to work within the existing status quo for an end-game to be feasible. This is Warframe we're talking about; a game that undergoes massive change on a regular basis. If there's any game where players can reasonably hope for "overhaul" style changes, Warframe is it. I'd even go as far as to say that massive overhauls are DE's go-to method of approach even when smaller and more conservative changes might be preferable. There's a strong affinity for "XYZ 2.0" instead of simple refinements. What I will concede is that Warframe has to date been served by endless missions as a player-concocted end-game.

 Some might call these "massive changes on a regular basis" an erratic game design. One day DE suddenly decide that quests are more important for them, and they waste two years on making quests that barely amount to 20-ish hours of gameplay total, while pretty much ignoring the core gameplay that people interact with for thousands of hours. Next day DE suddenly decide that they need an open world in Warframe, and again, all focus of development is shifted to this new gimmick that only sounds cool when it's hyped 24/7, and you don't have a moment to really think about it. 

 It's long overdue to settle down. We're not so young anymore.

10 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I don't think that your proposed solution to the lack of an end-game would be all that effective, though. Player frustration with enemy scaling is not limited to a one-dimensional complaint about getting one-shot. Take out the one-shots and soon you will have players complaining about enemies being too spongy. This won't be due to players simply not having what it takes to kill spongy enemies; it will be due to the fact that simply pumping bullets into something without it dying is utterly tiresome and pointless. There are two factors to sustaining a successful power fantasy:

1. The player's ability to avoid being killed by enemies.
2. The player's ability to kill enemies.

That's it. There is no real requirement for "satisfying" enemies to kill; you really just need a powerful player character and exciting visuals to keep the player entertained.

 Increasing the top enemy level and fleshing out endless missions is what is feasible to do. It's not a matter of personal preferences or players' complaints. There's just no other direction anybody could take this game at this point. Whether DE realize it or not, even PoE is basically an endless mission on a huge tile (but with low enemy density and no scaling). Endless missions with enemy scaling is what Warframe itself naturally points to as a horde shooter game.

10 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Proof: The entire Musou franchise, [PROTOTYPE] series, Skyrim, etc.

 You not gonna play a musou game for 2k hours unless it has a satisfying gameplay spiral built in it. And Skyrim has plenty to offer apart from the combat system. Combat system in Skyrim is basically a way for you to move your character from one place to another and it's rewarded constantly with new discoveries and encounters along the way... it's... Warframe is a different game. DE aren't Bethesda. If wanna proof that DE aren't Bethesda, Bethesda had a sense to make logging and mining into entirely skippable side activities. DE made fishing and mining mandatory for PoE content progression... Just don't compare Skyrim and Warframe, is what I'm saying, before I get carried away entirely.

 Your point about enemies being too cheesy to be satisfying is valid. As well as your point about having to negate that cheesiness with cheesy abilities. But this is what we have. To try and change that is to try and change the entire game from ground up. DE should have thought about this before even beginning the development of the game. At this point it's simply too late to change something so fundamental.

 

...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

 Hear me out. We have a fixed set of core mechanics in Warframe:

• Weapons of 3 types
• Gear system
• Modding system
• Parkour and combat
• Enemies and enemy spawns 

 These are at the heart of the gameplay. And most of the fixed objective missions in the game for some reason allow players to completely ignore at least one or more often multiple of these core gameplay mechanics. In the most extreme example off the top of my head - the capture missions, - in random que you basically only interact with parkour system. You're completely free to ignore the enemies as one of your other 3 teammates does "all the work", whatever little there is to do. 

 On the other hand endless missions like, say, survival. Engage all of the listed gameplay mechanics. You move around a lot, you use different weapons, you minmax to stay longer and be more useful to the team, you interact with enemies extensively.

 There's just no gameplay in Warframe that is more "Warframe" than endless missions with scaling enemy levels - love it or hate it, it's all we got.

...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

 

 

10 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Assertion: Obtaining and upgrading gear does not count as true "progression."

You presented this as a counter-point to my assertion that Warframe is already content-saturated. However, obtaining and upgrading gear is all Warframe has really offered for the entirety of its existence and yet here I am, 2K+ hours in and still playing. If collecting mods, crafting and leveling weapons, obtaining Warframes, etc. can't be counted as "progression," I don't know what can be. True, the Star Chart is relatively small. True, the available storytelling quests are limited. True, the "end-game" consists mostly of minor items on a daily checklist.

 You probably got me wrong. I think there's too much junk content in Warframe and we don't need another gun or another frame every other afternon. Especially since currently there isn't a real practical incentive in the gameplay to use anything except melee weapons. Which is a HUGE problem that I have no idea how to solve without a nerf or some form of a universal kill-combo system. 

 Considering the gear and progression: As I mentioned earlier in another post, the difference between killing a lvl 1 enemy with a lato and killing a lvl 150 enemy with Akstiletto prime is hours and hours of gameplay. It's an entire journey. That's exactly what we need high-level content for - to make hours and hours of gameplay and farming worth the time and effort.

Ability to engage with high-level content is a testimony to the player's progression through the game.

10 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

The "end-game" you are proposing where players must fight very spongy enemies and requiring min-maxed gear to complete efficiently sets the bar astronomically high to the point that players must accumulate complete loadouts of rare and grindy mods to compete.

 That's sort of the point of the entire game, isn't it? To collect things. Your argument is basically that players wouldn't like playing the game for too much. Well, I'm sorry. Nothing could be done. Void 2.0 is the worst example of catering to this kind of mentality and look what it did - it devaluated the entire prime gear pool. Prime gear is not a worthwhile reward anymore because it's too easy to get and most of the time players are free to afk the entire fissure. I wonder, if low prices is the reason why so much prime gear is retired into the vault these days?

 Making the game too casual and giving the "entire carrot" to the player instantly without any effort - is the worst thing a game Dev could possibly do.

 

 

...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

 This is getting too long. I'll talk you through my personal expierience and hopefully you'll understand where I'm coming from:

 When I started playing Warframe, I measured progression in the game through my ability to clear T1-4 Void and stay longer in endless Void missions. To be able to advance through Void tiers I needed better gear, so I farmed prime items, built up my collection of mods, maxed those mods out and tried again and again to stay as long as I could in Void survivals and defences. The more gear I got, the more rotations I could survive and the more rewards I acquired. At some point I could even sell excess items for platinum, which made extended void missions even more relevant in relation to the effort I put into the game and the rewards I gained.

Effectively establishing an upwards gameplay spiral.

 The better gear I got, the higher level enemies I encountered. And minmaxing that gear and the mods associated with it allowed me to defeat those higher level enemies, which signified my progression. Do you see my point here?

 Warframe used to have a working carrot on a stick system that made all the gear in the game relevant, without making it too accessible. Ducats and prime gear used to be rooted  much deeper into the game's economy.

 Void 1.0 wasn't perfect, but it did work and could have been improved upon. Instead, DE's rework mentality scrapped it in its entirety - good and bad, - and introduced a completely new system that simply replaced one set of problems with another set of problems while choking the life out of the only possible endgame Warframe could have ever had.

 That's why I'm so opposed to your idea of reworking the entire mathematical foundation of the game - there's no guarantee that it's gonna be any better. While, on the other hand, higher level content is already present in the game, solves the same problems your rework idea is meant to solve, and doesn't require the entire game to be rebalanced to unforeseeable consequences. 

...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

 

Edited December 15, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[BlackCoMerc]

I still maintain that, in the long run, more grind for more time spent in the same Endless missions, will not sustain Warframe. We have been there. We have done that. We are mostly tired of doing it. If this were not the case, we would not be here, on the forums, making a case for end End Game. We would instead play the end game we already have. 

Hence my concern: Simply increasing the levels at which Endless Missions begin, wont retain players. And it will not create an End Game on its own. Sure it might satisfy a grind focused niche group, who love to while away the hours grinding for min/max perfection. But that isnt the majority of the audience, to whom this would seem like yet more wasted dev time.

In Dev Stream 100, Steve (thankfully) mentioned moving AWAY from Quests. Quests, he indicated, are wasted dev time. Months and years spent on a few hours of content. They dont retain players. So Steven mentioned moving TOWARD Systems that create ongoing, repeatable content. 

I think this is where Warframe needs to go. Into uncharted territory. Into systems that could, perhaps, grab hold of the Corpus/Grineer war, and use it to generate dynamic events throughout the game. Or at least in certain nodes. Invasions are a good beginning, sure. But imagine of Invasion missions could result in Corpus or Grineer incursions into normal mission tiles, or into Landscapes. Imagine if repelling or assisting these Incurstions granted rewards and changed missions, control of nodes and generated other dynamic events on the fly. Imagine logging into Warframe each day to check the state of the war and never knowing what that might be and what dangers and rewards it might generate.

Now imagine adding in dangerous, open world Dark Sectors, full of enticing loot and deadly dangers at the same time, with both better loot and more dangerous enemies the further into them you explore.

Sure, thats a little grandiose. But lets face it, NO game has EVER perfected the "end game" players are seeking. Which is why they are on the forum of every MMO ever, asking for one. Warframe needs to think outside the box if they want to keep "hobby gamers" engaged and playing beyond a couple hundred hours grind, because obviously, the grind is neither enticing nor retaining near the players DE needs.

[Terrornaut]

4 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

There's just no gameplay in Warframe that is more "Warframe" than endless missions with scaling enemy levels - love it or hate it, it's all we got.

Agreed with this, but also with many points between Apero, Diabolus, BlackCoMerc, even though in some ways they conflict. Good discussion.

Totally identify with Apero's long term experience.  Also Mr Merc's assessment of End Game everywhere.  End game is different for people.  Me? I would love relevant assault modes with mini bosses like zanuka, g3, stalker mixed in with regular enemies, but I am super content with playing scaling endless endurance mode (for 30-90 mins), or say, if PoE actually scaled, had invasions, incursions were valuable like old alerts were, etc.

PoE is kind of the foundation for the game's potential fixes to a lot of these problems, but it is a straight up fetus right now.
Also F mandatory or plat mining and fishing.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Terrornaut

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I still maintain that, in the long run, more grind for more time spent in the same Endless missions, will not sustain Warframe. We have been there. We have done that. We are mostly tired of doing it. If this were not the case, we would not be here, on the forums, making a case for end End Game. We would instead play the end game we already have. 

Hence my concern: Simply increasing the levels at which Endless Missions begin, wont retain players. And it will not create an End Game on its own. Sure it might satisfy a grind focused niche group, who love to while away the hours grinding for min/max perfection. But that isnt the majority of the audience, to whom this would seem like yet more wasted dev time.

In Dev Stream 100, Steve (thankfully) mentioned moving AWAY from Quests. Quests, he indicated, are wasted dev time. Months and years spent on a few hours of content. They dont retain players. So Steven mentioned moving TOWARD Systems that create ongoing, repeatable content. 

I think this is where Warframe needs to go. Into uncharted territory. Into systems that could, perhaps, grab hold of the Corpus/Grineer war, and use it to generate dynamic events throughout the game. Or at least in certain nodes. Invasions are a good beginning, sure. But imagine of Invasion missions could result in Corpus or Grineer incursions into normal mission tiles, or into Landscapes. Imagine if repelling or assisting these Incurstions granted rewards and changed missions, control of nodes and generated other dynamic events on the fly. Imagine logging into Warframe each day to check the state of the war and never knowing what that might be and what dangers and rewards it might generate.

Now imagine adding in dangerous, open world Dark Sectors, full of enticing loot and deadly dangers at the same time, with both better loot and more dangerous enemies the further into them you explore.

Sure, thats a little grandiose. But lets face it, NO game has EVER perfected the "end game" players are seeking. Which is why they are on the forum of every MMO ever, asking for one. Warframe needs to think outside the box if they want to keep "hobby gamers" engaged and playing beyond a couple hundred hours grind, because obviously, the grind is neither enticing nor retaining near the players DE needs.

 What is Warframe exactly? Warframe is grind, Warframe is combat, Warframe is gameplay. The case you're putting up is "we didn't like what we used to have, we don't like what we have right now, we don't particularly know what we want, but we want something else". No offence, guys, but you have no idea how this "rebalanced" and "different" Warframe could possibly be implemented and how it's going to play. When I hear from you "we need to rebalance the stats and nerf the powers", I don't believe you understand what it really means and how exactly it's supposed work. This is my biggest concern in regards to this particular conversation.

 You agree with all the right things - "challenge", "rewards", 'replayability". But you fail to notice that we already have "ongoing repeateble" (even scaling!) content in Warframe - the endless missions. For some reason you don't want to acknowledge that... Maybe I'm the one missing something? I don't know... What I do know is that currently we have repetitive, barely five minute long missions, with nigh to zero player engagement as the sole primary gameplay. And missions like that are a burnout engine tuned up to eleven. I also know that endless missions with high-level enemies are the only alternative present in the game. We simply don't have anything else available in Warframe right now. We also don't have a luxury to wait for DE to conjure some magical new gimmick that would keep players interested - it's not happening. They're burning out themselves. Open world was their final trump card. It's a desperate measure - otherwise nobody in their right mind would do it four years in open beta.

 For years DE had been trying to distance themselves from the very core of their own game. Instead of embracing and fleshing out the mechanics they themselves created, Devs had been struggling to reinvent Warframe first into a story-driven game, now into this poor excuse for an open world. Venturing into all sorts of "uncharted territories", new genre and mechanics - It doesn't work! It's a waste of time and resources!... How can you not understand it, I have no idea. 

 We need to be realistic with what could be achieved at the present moment, but also have a better plan for the future than just another gimmick. We could come up with thousands and thousands of ideas, but if none of them have a foot in reality, all those ideas would forever stay a fantasy.

 The only way to develop Warframe forward is to base all future changes on what is already present in the game.

 Focus failed so miserably exactly because it was a forced mechanic that didn't work with the existing content - and now DE are stuck with it. Plains of Eidolon failed because of the way it was implemented - the entire update exists as a separate entity from the rest of the game! DE keep wasting their time and resources on these dubious new ventures, while neglecting everything they've been building before... Do you not realize that you're basically asking for more of that?

 Open world you say. Open world in Warframe is just an endless mission on a huge tile with weird spawning mechanics, no rewards and no scaling. That's what open world is in this game. Nothing else but a waste of resources, that could have been avoided if DE understood their own game better. It's fine for you as a player to ask for something that agitates your imagination. But it's Devs' responsibility to know their own limitations and the limitations of their product.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

1 hour ago, Terrornaut said:

Also F mandatory or plat mining and fishing.

F@ck Fishing. Amen.

[Fallen_Echo]

I got to say i have seen more thoughtful and relevant discussions and suggestions here in this thread about warframe and the direction we are going than what we had here in the forums for almost the whole year!

At this point i would like to thank the main posters  @AperoBeltaTwo , @BlackCoMerc  and

22 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

 

 for turning this thread into a something worthy to read.

So many good points, ideas, suggestions i really hope that someone at DE actually reads these posts.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Fallen_Echo
Forums buggy again, gotta include diabolus as a quote

[DiabolusUrsus]

9 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Corrections:

Important: Rewards Useful, disposable and Rooted into the Trade System. Ducats and decent arcanes have a price in plat attached to them. Kuva is connected to the trade chat indirectly through Rivens.

And what do you do when your end-game reduces the plat value of those items by making them easier to obtain efficiently while you are partially depending on said plat value to make the rewards desirable?

At the very least I hope you are going to mandate QOL improvements to trade chat if we are going to make it part of the end-game norm instead of an optional source of income.

9 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Not exactly: Obtaining and upgrading gear that isn't Rooted into the gameplay doesn't count as true "progression". When we have melee weapons that could wipe out whole rooms with a single strike and enemies that die from being lightly sneezed upon, maxed out mods become irrelevant - because they don't affect the gameplay and capabilities of your warframes and weapons. "You can't oneshot an enemy twise." Lack of high-level enemies promotes casual gameplay as a chronical issue, removing the incentive to explore and master core mechanics of the game. It also takes away from the unique attributes of weapons, since everything dies in a single click whichever weapon you equip.

This doesn't make any sense to me. How can you have a weapon that isn't rooted deeply into the gameplay? You don't have gameplay without weapons.

Okay, so once you have the meta weapons you can't really "progress" further until a new meta weapon comes along, but there is still a long way to go in terms of time invested before new players will get there.

If you ALSO want to make the case that Warframe's core gameplay is pushing the limits of endless content I would argue that all weapons potentially count as progression because they serve as (relatively) blank slates for which the player can develop builds. If 'creating the strongest build' counts as gameplay, 'creating a build that let's you beat high-level enemies with a weapon handicap' should also count.

9 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

I can't repeat myself enough on this one: Imagine the game as a huge lump of material that you're sculpting on. After four years of work the basic shapes are long set. You can't rework anything fundamentally at this point. All you could do is damage control and fine work with a chisel. Otherwise you just risk ruining the entire piece. We can't just rebalance the entire maths of the game at this point. Or suddenly "will" Warframe into being an open world game.

Just be feasible. Basically, whenever you think of something, you should have in your head a rough idea of how to "connect the dots" - how to connect your idea with the existing gameplay. And how Devs could do it in the least number of steps.

Not. True.

You call it "erratic development," and I 100% agree, but it also hasn't ever had catastrophic results. It's not so terribly dangerous that the devs must discard the notion of a balance overhaul as you are suggesting.

Warframe can, will, and MUST change massively in the future to stay relevant. It cannot simply stay as-is and hope to survive long-term. The evidence is already there in that Warframe is already struggling to retain new players! Massive rework is risky, yes, but it is essential!

I'm fine with your proposed makeshift end-game (minus a few quibbles) as a temporary stopgap for keeping bored vets occupied. But it can't STOP there, because it's not enough, and DE simply cannot afford to steer clear of drastic revisions simply because of an established paradigm.

You can't expect dangling a carrot 80-100 hours in to keep players playing if they don't actually enjoy the first 80-100 hours. Your solution may work to keep vets occupied, but it will ONLY work for them and vets ultimately aren't all that important to the game's survival. New players are.

And to a new player, there is no established status quo that must be respected.

EDIT: part 2 response later, obvi.

Edited December 15, 2017 by DiabolusUrsus

[Terrornaut]

15 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

You can't expect dangling a carrot 80-100 hours in to keep players playing if they don't actually enjoy the first 80-100 hours. Your solution may work to keep vets occupied, but it will ONLY work for them and vets ultimately aren't all that important to the game's survival. New players are.

This is where a lot of MMORPGs have lost me over the years.  Some I have not made it to endgame because they were just never fun along the climb.

Designing a game to be fun after immense hours or opening the experience up after 40-100 hours is just straight horrible and not deserving of money.  If you offer a crippled product we have to slog through to get to interesting and good times, you don't deserve the time and money from us.  Not saying WF does this, it didn't after CB/OB (though you had to spend money to fully upgrade gear/frames).  The games I have put hundreds or thousands of hours into are games that were fun, open, and satisfying from the beginning, or at least shortly after the initial tutorial.  Learning additional systems and mechanics is totally fine, but not if its one every 10 or 30 hours unless its something like understanding frame data in fighting games that only really affects people trying to play on certain gameplay (not character) levels.

[DiabolusUrsus]

38 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

This is where a lot of MMORPGs have lost me over the years.  Some I have not made it to endgame because they were just never fun along the climb.

Designing a game to be fun after immense hours or opening the experience up after 40-100 hours is just straight horrible and not deserving of money.  If you offer a crippled product we have to slog through to get to interesting and good times, you don't deserve the time and money from us.  Not saying WF does this, it didn't after CB/OB (though you had to spend money to fully upgrade gear/frames).  The games I have put hundreds or thousands of hours into are games that were fun, open, and satisfying from the beginning, or at least shortly after the initial tutorial.  Learning additional systems and mechanics is totally fine, but not if its one every 10 or 30 hours unless its something like understanding frame data in fighting games that only really affects people trying to play on certain gameplay (not character) levels.

I would agree that Warframe's first 100 hours are not TERRIBLE, but they're not great either.

When I first tried Warframe after it released on Steam I uninstalled it within 40 minutes. The gameplay was just that flat, repetitive, and dull. There was nothing driving me to continue playing.

I only reinstalled it because my buddies were trying it out, and 2k+ gameplay hours later the simple and easy multiplayer function was ultimately what kept us going.

Warframe has a strong community, but unless you go in with a group the combined lack of adequate tutorial, absence of gameplay depth, and intimidating mechanical complexity are likely to drive you away before you ever connect with that community.

The promise of fighting cheesier versions of enemies I have already encountered 15 minutes in certainly wouldn't entice me to spend the next in-game week of my life getting there.

Warframe needs a Star Chart that is fun to play around in more than it needs a "proper" end-game. Because the reality is once players are invested they're less likely to abandon the game completely if they get bored... Especially if they've spent money. We just need to stop them from getting bored quick off the bat.

And to do that, Warframe needs to be overhauled into something with more depth imo.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

And what do you do when your end-game reduces the plat value of those items by making them easier to obtain efficiently while you are partially depending on said plat value to make the rewards desirable?

At the very least I hope you are going to mandate QOL improvements to trade chat if we are going to make it part of the end-game norm instead of an optional source of income.

 I'm all for an auction house in the game, but unfortunately none of the changes I proposed really affect the tradechat enough to issue a significant change like that. Prime parts prices are already through the floor swiftly approaching the Earth's core; Rivens' prices aren't based on the accessibility of Kuva for obvious reasons; in case of arcanes though, this will be a choice between leaving raids as unpopular and unaccessible as they are right now or lowering the prices of high-end arcanes slightly.

 But this is a legitimate concern and I thought about it myself. I expect a slight reduction of prices on arcanes (if a raid tutorial system is introduced to the game), but nothing else should change. I wish I could find a way to increase the value of Prime parts, but I have no idea how to do it at this point (the suggestion I had in regards to Void missions being permanent fissures won't be able to affect the prices of prime gear at all - it's just more mission options, it won't change the accessibility of prime loot. it's a strictly QoL change).

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

This doesn't make any sense to me. How can you have a weapon that isn't rooted deeply into the gameplay? You don't have gameplay without weapons.

Okay, so once you have the meta weapons you can't really "progress" further until a new meta weapon comes along, but there is still a long way to go in terms of time invested before new players will get there.

If you ALSO want to make the case that Warframe's core gameplay is pushing the limits of endless content I would argue that all weapons potentially count as progression because they serve as (relatively) blank slates for which the player can develop builds. If 'creating the strongest build' counts as gameplay, 'creating a build that let's you beat high-level enemies with a weapon handicap' should also count.

 This is a rabbit hole, if I start answering this, it'll never end. Ok, I'll try to keep it brief. 

1. First problem is that in a lot of cases you don't need to engage the enemy much. With very few exceptions, regular enemies and combat are almost never the objective of the mission. In fissures you only need to kill specific enemies, in Kuva missions you better off not engaging with the enemy at all... I promised to keep it brief, a lot could be said about this and I don't want to spend the rest of my life STOP. 
2. Second is that melee weapons completely overshadow both primary and secondary weapons in terms of effectiveness and scaling, while also being remarkably bland and similar to each other with very few exceptions. Melee weapons are the press X to wipe out the whole room tool that overshadows the rest of the weapons in the game STOP!
3. Third, low-level oneshottable enemies don't require minmaxing and actually flesh out a weapon better without a full set of mods, which is a whole another topic i could elaborate on if you really want me to spend the rest of my life STOOOP!

 Basically, lack of high-level content in the game promotes casual gameplay and removes the incentive for minmaxing, while extremely accessible and popular melee meta makes primary and secondary weapons less effective in comparison. Ask yourself, how often do you and other players resort to melee kills in missions instead of using firearms? One average built melee weapon could carry a novice player through 95% of Warframe content. You get Condition Overload or Blood Rush with any half-decent melee and it's pretty much game over. 

 I hope this much was enough to answer your question, otherwise I'll be a really unhappy person...ENOUGH!

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

You call it "erratic development," and I 100% agree, but it also hasn't ever had catastrophic results. It's not so terribly dangerous that the devs must discard the notion of a balance overhaul as you are suggesting.

 Ok, I'll try to keep it calm!

1. The Wait Within drought is the direct result of this erratic game development.
2. Void 2.0 (worst update I've seen so far) is the direct result of this erratic game development.
3. Quest-focused game development of the past two years is the direct result of this erratic game development.
4. Focus and operator system being in the horrible state they are in right now is the direct result of this erratic game development.
5. Sorties never graduating from this horrid 15 minutes once every 24 hours gameplay is the direct result of this erratic game development.
6. Kuva missions being Fissures 1.0 all over again and lasting for over a year is the direct result of this erratic game development.
7. Mandatory fishing and mining in PoE is the direct result of this erratic game development.
8. ...AGGGGGHHH... I'm sorry, I'm a bit too emotional this time, I hope it doesn't bother you too much ...AGGGGGGHH!! 
9. etc.

 I mean, I'm sure it didn't kill anybody... unfor...NOW STAY!

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

I'm fine with your proposed makeshift end-game (minus a few quibbles) as a temporary stopgap for keeping bored vets occupied. But it can't STOP there, because it's not enough, and DE simply cannot afford to steer clear of drastic revisions simply because of an established paradigm.

 Ofc it can't stop there! But we gotta start with something real and working. Ventures into the unknown should start with placing both feet on the ground. Warframe doesn't have that, doesn't have a solid posture, doesn't have a solid basis for its gameplay and all the possible future updates.

 "Warframe's legs are wobbly and it's a bit too drunk and excited", so to speak. 

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

You can't expect dangling a carrot 80-100 hours in to keep players playing if they don't actually enjoy the first 80-100 hours. Your solution may work to keep vets occupied, but it will ONLY work for them and vets ultimately aren't all that important to the game's survival. New players are.

And to a new player, there is no established status quo that must be respected.

• New players are less likely to stay in games without veterans.
• New players are less likely to invest money in games without a vibrant community which is built by veterans.
• Games without a carrot on a stick structure have no longterm player retention.
• On the other hand, a well-built carrot on a stick system could occupy players for thousands of hours on its own - even without an incredibly sophisticated gameplay (which has been proven on multiple occasions by pretty much every single MMORPG in existence)

Edited December 15, 2017 by AperoBeltaTwo

[DiabolusUrsus]

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 I'm all for an auction house in the game, but unfortunately none of the changes I proposed really affect the tradechat enough to issue a significant change like that. Prime parts prices are already through the floor swiftly approaching the Earth's core; Rivens' prices aren't based on the accessibility of Kuva for obvious reasons; in case of arcanes though, this will be a choice between leaving raids as unpopular and unaccessible as they are right now or lowering the prices of high-end arcanes slightly.

 But this is a legitimate concern and I thought about it myself. I expect a slight reduction of prices on arcanes (if a raid tutorial system is introduced to the game), but nothing else should change. I wish I could find a way to increase the value of Prime parts, but I have no idea how to do it at this point (the suggestion I had in regards to Void missions being permanent fissures won't be able to affect the prices of prime gear at all - it's just more mission options, it won't change the accessibility of prime loot. it's a strictly QoL change).

I don't think it's really all that important to bring prices up. I was just pointing out that half the value of your proposed rewards are potential profits from trade chat, and trade chat is absolutely miserable to use in its current state.

• Increased Kuva availability will bring the prices of Rivens down somewhat because re-rolling for god-tier stats will be more accessible when people have something to play that doesn't require beating their heads against Kuva missions. It won't affect it much, but I reckon that it will affect it.
• Do you really think players ought to be paying more than 5 plat for a few junk Prime parts? Just sayin' that if you can earn Ducats directly that'll effectively bottom out the "junk" Prime market.
• I've largely ignored Arcanes, so no comment.

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

This is a rabbit hole, if I start answering this, it'll never end. Ok, I'll try to keep it brief. 

1. First problem is that in a lot of cases you don't need to engage the enemy much. With very few exceptions, regular enemies and combat are almost never the objective of the mission. In fissures you only need to kill specific enemies, in Kuva missions you better off not engaging with the enemy at all... I promised to keep it brief, a lot could be said about this and I don't want to spend the rest of my life STOP. 
2. Second is that melee weapons completely overshadow both primary and secondary weapons in terms of effectiveness and scaling, while also being remarkably bland and similar to each other with very few exceptions. Melee weapons are the press X to wipe out the whole room tool that overshadows the rest of the weapons in the game STOP!
3. Third, low-level oneshottable enemies don't require minmaxing and actually flesh out a weapon better without a full set of mods, which is a whole another topic i could elaborate on if you really want me to spend the rest of my life STOOOP!

1. Agreed.
2. And for the what, 3 years prior to Blood Rush/Body Count/etc. even the weakest firearms completely overshadowed most melee weapons. The game's dynamic is largely unchanged by a new top-dog. The main difference is that unlike when melee was relatively useless next to guns, guns are still plenty viable next to melee if you aren't insisting on the absolute top-of-the-line stats. For that reason, I'd argue that the situation is overall improved.
3. I don't actually think that there's much of a reason at all to encourage people to min-max. It will always be there, it will always be an option, but forcing it into the gameplay really only alienates the people who don't really enjoy it. It'd be like if the Souls series started enforcing speedruns or SL1 runs. Go ahead and throw challenge modes in to satisfy the people who do min-max, and by all means offer them larger quantities of rewards for doing so, but never uniquely available rewards.

Sorry, but if min-maxing is viable gameplay on its own, then I'm still convinced that there is still a reason to min-max weapons that aren't at the top of the progression curve as a means of layering on extra "challenge." Consequently, I think acquiring new gear (more powerful or not) still qualifies as Warframe's equivalent of progression.

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Ok, I'll try to keep it calm!

1. The Wait Within drought is the direct result of this erratic game development.
2. Void 2.0 (worst update I've seen so far) is the direct result of this erratic game development.
3. Quest-focused game development of the past two years is the direct result of this erratic game development.
4. Focus and operator system being in the horrible state they are in right now is the direct result of this erratic game development.
5. Sorties never graduating from this horrid 15 minutes once every 24 hours gameplay is the direct result of this erratic game development.
6. Kuva missions being Fissures 1.0 all over again and lasting for over a year is the direct result of this erratic game development.
7. Mandatory fishing and mining in PoE is the direct result of this erratic game development.
8. ...AGGGGGHHH... I'm sorry, I'm a bit too emotional this time, I hope it doesn't bother you too much ...AGGGGGGHH!! 
9. etc.

 I mean, I'm sure it didn't kill anybody... unfor...NOW STAY!

I never said it didn't harm the game. I just said it never produced catastrophic results. Like huge portions of your playerbase leaving and the game subsequently drowning in its own reputation type of catastrophic results.

I agree that jumping from this to that with no sense of cohesive direction or purpose doesn't benefit the game. But my point is that making huge fundamental changes isn't likely to kill the game. The community is also fairly used to things changing in large ways on a semi-regular basis, so Warframe is actually one of the games in a better position to pull off a radical re-interpretation of itself.

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Ofc it can't stop there! But we gotta start with something real and working. Ventures into the unknown should start with placing both feet on the ground. Warframe doesn't have that, doesn't have a solid posture, doesn't have a solid basis for its gameplay and all the possible future updates.

 "Warframe's legs are wobbly and it's a bit too drunk and excited", so to speak. 

Okay. I just got the impression that you were treating it as a catch-all solution because you suggested that endless content was the only viable end-game content. I didn't understand that the full message was "endless content is the only viable end-game content as a first step."

What really concerns me about this, though, is that DE would be likely to treat it as finished. After all, they've been coasting on their endless content keeping veterans occupied for years while they've tinkered with half-baked, experimental end-game missions. Once it's made "official?" There goes any hope I ever had of them polishing up Dark Sectors or Sorties.

2 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

• New players are less likely to stay in games without veterans.
• New players are less likely to invest money in games without a vibrant community which is built by veterans.
• Games without a carrot on a stick structure have no longterm player retention.
• On the other hand, a well-built carrot on a stick system could occupy players for thousands of hours on its own - even without an incredibly sophisticated gameplay (which has been proven on multiple occasions by pretty much every single MMORPG in existence)

• True, but not all of the veterans will just up-and-leave. Only some. I mean, many will talk about it and posture and make threats, but fewer of them will actually leave.
• I mean... okay, but they're still more likely to spend money than jaded veterans like me who are waiting for DE to start actually improving the game before spending another cent. And their "vibrant community" that encourages them to spend money is in all likelihood a group of their existing friends rather than complete strangers.
• I'm not saying you shouldn't have a carrot... I'm saying you can't dangle the only carrot so far out and expect it to work. There need to be lots of little carrots in between the big carrot... which makes freshening up the Star Chart and making it actually fun to play in is more important than officializing the unofficial end-game.
• And Warframe doesn't have a well-built carrot on a stick system, but I'm still 2k+ hours in. So something is working in the interim. That something doesn't seem to be working all that well for the newer players, though, and the problem I'm pointing out is that whatever Warframe's "something" is it really needs to.

[DiabolusUrsus]

12 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You not gonna play a musou game for 2k hours unless it has a satisfying gameplay spiral built in it. And Skyrim has plenty to offer apart from the combat system. Combat system in Skyrim is basically a way for you to move your character from one place to another and it's rewarded constantly with new discoveries and encounters along the way... it's... Warframe is a different game. DE aren't Bethesda. If wanna proof that DE aren't Bethesda, Bethesda had a sense to make logging and mining into entirely skippable side activities. DE made fishing and mining mandatory for PoE content progression... Just don't compare Skyrim and Warframe, is what I'm saying, before I get carried away entirely.

You don't play musou games for 2k hours because most musou games don't actually have 2k hours of content in them. And that's largely because they don't operate on a F2P model that can continuously suck money out of their players; the devs have to keep the players wanting the next release. Also I'm not really comparing Skyrim and Warframe. The point I was making is that it is perfectly possible to construct and sustain a power fantasy with very shallow enemies that are completely unsatisfying to kill individually.

To me, that means Warframe is doing something very wrong for me to be constantly yanked out of the fantasy. (Namely, Warframe failing to follow its own rules consistently because if it tried to play fair the player would be unbeatable.)

I suppose a simple way to phrase it is that Warframe's power fantasy falls apart because it gives players too much power and then still tries to "challenge" them.

In no other well-designed game do players have practically infinite access to things like hard CC or obscene amounts of damage. (Personally, I think that the problem largely stems from Warframe's deficient, vestigial, and poorly-implemented Energy system more than anything else. If Energy gated our abilities properly, this sort of power wouldn't be as much of a problem.)

12 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 Hear me out. We have a fixed set of core mechanics in Warframe:

• Weapons of 3 types
• Gear system
• Modding system
• Parkour and combat
• Enemies and enemy spawns 

 These are at the heart of the gameplay. And most of the fixed objective missions in the game for some reason allow players to completely ignore at least one or more often multiple of these core gameplay mechanics. In the most extreme example off the top of my head - the capture missions, - in random que you basically only interact with parkour system. You're completely free to ignore the enemies as one of your other 3 teammates does "all the work", whatever little there is to do. 

 On the other hand endless missions like, say, survival. Engage all of the listed gameplay mechanics. You move around a lot, you use different weapons, you minmax to stay longer and be more useful to the team, you interact with enemies extensively.

 There's just no gameplay in Warframe that is more "Warframe" than endless missions with scaling enemy levels - love it or hate it, it's all we got.

I agree... somewhat.

But the only reason endless missions are so much more satisfying to play is that they have a focus on the actual combat. As shallow as it is, as repetitive as it is, 99% of players are playing just to shoot/cut/smash things. However, I don't think that just because Endless missions capture that most effectively that means we should simply focus on Endless missions and to hell with the rest of it.

I want the devs to sit down and really look at why players don't really find, say, Spy or Rescue to be sustainable fun.

My impression is that most of Warframe's objectives are simply annoying. Exterminate? I still end up backtracking to kill that one random enemy that's messing up my waypoint. Spy? The way alarms are implemented normally alongside the actual vault alarms make them more frustrating than they're worth in most cases. Rescue? Don't even get me started on escort missions. Defection? That's a sad joke.

Of course players are going to gravitate to the modes where objectives are less intrusive (Survival being the prime example).

Consequently, I think that Warframe's objectives should be made secondary (and repurposed for dynamic storytelling), or otherwise reworked to be less annoying, and the player's primary threat of failure should be extinction.

At the same time, the player needs more of a cushion between them and death... something like a unique take on a second wind mechanic, or similar. This would also mandate the implementation of a higher-TTK environment where OHKOs really aren't a thing (once again circling back to the whole "enemy health needs to go up; everyone's damage needs to go down."

12 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

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 This is getting too long. I'll talk you through my personal expierience and hopefully you'll understand where I'm coming from:

 When I started playing Warframe, I measured progression in the game through my ability to clear T1-4 Void and stay longer in endless Void missions. To be able to advance through Void tiers I needed better gear, so I farmed prime items, built up my collection of mods, maxed those mods out and tried again and again to stay as long as I could in Void survivals and defences. The more gear I got, the more rotations I could survive and the more rewards I acquired. At some point I could even sell excess items for platinum, which made extended void missions even more relevant in relation to the effort I put into the game and the rewards I gained.

Effectively establishing an upwards gameplay spiral.

 The better gear I got, the higher level enemies I encountered. And minmaxing that gear and the mods associated with it allowed me to defeat those higher level enemies, which signified my progression. Do you see my point here?

 Warframe used to have a working carrot on a stick system that made all the gear in the game relevant, without making it too accessible. Ducats and prime gear used to be rooted  much deeper into the game's economy.

 Void 1.0 wasn't perfect, but it did work and could have been improved upon. Instead, DE's rework mentality scrapped it in its entirety - good and bad, - and introduced a completely new system that simply replaced one set of problems with another set of problems while choking the life out of the only possible endgame Warframe could have ever had.

 That's why I'm so opposed to your idea of reworking the entire mathematical foundation of the game - there's no guarantee that it's gonna be any better. While, on the other hand, higher level content is already present in the game, solves the same problems your rework idea is meant to solve, and doesn't require the entire game to be rebalanced to unforeseeable consequences. 

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Okay, yeah. I totally see where you are coming from.

But what you need to understand is that your experience is completely alien to my experience, and while I'm not going to make absurd claims with regards to whose experience is more "mainstream," the difference between us will hardly be unique.

As I've said before/elsewhere/I can't remember where, Warframe should scratch as many itches as possible. It should scratch your itch for testing yourself repeatedly by implementing persistent fissures (I think it'd be fine to have minimum 1 of each gametype in each tier avaialble always, even if the exact node cycled for fresh tilesets). It should scratch my itch for fighting adversaries that are "worthy" because of something that isn't simply inflated stats. It should scratch Joe Schmoe's itch for simply blowing everything to hell by having plenty of trash mobs around to die in dramatic fashion and supply him with health, energy, and ammo.

What Warframe absolutely shouldn't do, IMO, is settle for "well, this is what I am now," and shut out the possibility of expansion simply because it's a scary risk.

Yes, I realize that DE has already gone the "lots-of-expansion" route in a reckless and ultimately damaging manner.

Yes, I realize that is likely to be all they ever do.

No, I'm not willing (yet) to simply throw my hands in the air and settle for what I can find mildly entertaining instead of continuing to insist that they can expand what Warframe is by taking all these random-&#! concept that they've failed to implement well, polishing them up, and tying them together.

Archwing can be fixed.

Sorties can be fixed.

Dark Sectors can be fixed.

Kuva Missions can be fixed.

Non-endless missions can be fixed.

Open worldspace maps can be fixed.

There is nothing in the game that can't be fixed.

And if DE would actually stop for a second and fix those things, that would help entice BOTH newer and older players into sticking around.

So, circling back to this:

33 minutes ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

Okay. I just got the impression that you were treating it as a catch-all solution because you suggested that endless content was the only viable end-game content. I didn't understand that the full message was "endless content is the only viable end-game content as a first step."

What really concerns me about this, though, is that DE would be likely to treat it as finished. After all, they've been coasting on their endless content keeping veterans occupied for years while they've tinkered with half-baked, experimental end-game missions. Once it's made "official?" There goes any hope I ever had of them polishing up Dark Sectors or Sorties.

I am perfectly fine with DE implementing quick-and-dirty endless missions with good rewards and high starting levels (provided those rewards are not unique to those missions).

At the same time, I can't accept this:

12 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

 It's long overdue to settle down. We're not so young anymore.

 There's just no gameplay in Warframe that is more "Warframe" than endless missions with scaling enemy levels - love it or hate it, it's all we got.

It may be all we've got, but it's most certainly not all we can have.

And while I agree Warframe needs to get it's act together, I look at it more as Warframe needing to sober up, focus (hah) on ONE cohesive direction, and start tying its odds and ends together into a finished product.

Warframe doesn't have to settle for what it has... but it needs to stop going in completely random directions.

[Terrornaut]

3 hours ago, DiabolusUrsus said:

But the only reason endless missions are so much more satisfying to play is that they have a focus on the actual combat. As shallow as it is, as repetitive as it is, 99% of players are playing just to shoot/cut/smash things. However, I don't think that just because Endless missions capture that most effectively that means we should simply focus on Endless missions and to hell with the rest of it.

I want the devs to sit down and really look at why players don't really find, say, Spy or Rescue to be sustainable fun.

My impression is that most of Warframe's objectives are simply annoying. Exterminate? I still end up backtracking to kill that one random enemy that's messing up my waypoint. Spy? The way alarms are implemented normally alongside the actual vault alarms make them more frustrating than they're worth in most cases. Rescue? Don't even get me started on escort missions. Defection? That's a sad joke.

Bolded part is definitely me. Yeah I spend time on fashion, testing builds and even crunching numbers, but ultimately, I will regularly hold a non exterm/endless mission up because i saw a group of mobs and had to massacre them lol.

Meanwhile, in spite of this, WF is the only game aside from interpersonal long term roleplay in various online games that has ever made me draw tears.  DE is capable of extreme and great things, but, like your independence day-level WF call to action post posits (no /s, I loved it), they need to stop fking around and do justice to what they've got.

They're like the sexy trap-bachelor that can't stop banging random fools and settle down and just maybe look at improving their existing relationships before going onto the next.

[Valaska]

On 12/2/2017 at 2:36 PM, zornyan said:

He problem is DE don’t play their game, which is obvious by changes such as to volts “tweaks” we just received, or the laughable reworks of late.

 

things actually got better for a while when Steve was doing a play though on stream, he had to start a new account and was playing the game (without god mod like DE usually does) and had to actually do things like craft his weapons and fight normally.

 

when this happened we did actually get good QOL tweaks, but then Steve stopped for POE and so did the improvements.

 

as many many streamers/you tubers have pointed out though, the new player experience is @(*()$ dreadful, and Steve really needs to pick this up again, as it’s potentially losing them huge amounts of players/sales.

Steve is the main guy standing in the way of QOL tweaks. He doesn't get that things like Vacuum etc are good... People have been asking exactly what he thinks not having universal vacuum actually brings to the game that is positive but they have never even fielded the question. You can tell his outright confusion and bewilderment when people suggest universal vacuum is something they want...

For instance "nobody even mentioned or noticed the 3 meter vacuum;" he said that because he literally believes that means people don't want it... But the reason no one noticed the crappy inconsequential 3 meter vacuum which is actually only 1.5 meters.. So they got their math wrong or warframes are actually 4 meters tall... *cough* thats another discussion though. But the reason we never noticed the addition is because EVERYONE on POE runs Vacuum. The only time I've ever seen someone not running a vacuum sentinel is when they are mining.