Gara's Nerf feedback and Suggestions.

[ChaotikDreamz]

As we all know Gara's 4th ability Mass Vetrify has taken a huge blow to the nerf zone.  Which IMO needed a tweak or two but sadly not in the direction they took it. As it has been compaired to Frost Snow globe 18 billion times over.  It was nothing like it and had alot of drawbacks compaired to frost snow globe.  I mean come on Snow globe is a pretty much go afk and eat dinner lock down skill and everyone knows it.  You can serously set up frost for max efficiency throw in the augment mod, make a macro to cast 3 every 4-5 seconds and if you have energizing dash throw that into the mix  press start and goto dinner. Thus Frost nerfs over the life span of Warframe has made him into a boring crapfest to play.   Atleast Gara was fun and a very interactive engaging frame to play the way frost was before he got nerf hammered. Her wall kept AI at bay while you was able to share your splinter storm buff to allies, and the defense obj. or even debuff enemies. Her 3 was a waste of space even though in lower level fodder it was amusing to block a doorway and watch AI funnel in only to walk over and erase them with Shattered Lash. I'll admit Gara is probably the first frame i actually used all of her skills in mission constantly.

So with this nerf to Gara's ultimate ability you have made her from Frost 2.0 that was fun and ingaging to play. To Ember 2.0 sure not everyone remembers the godly OverHeat of the great and wonderful Ember who also has been nerfed into nothing but a arsenal decoration. But the difference between Ember's good ole days and Gara is that it take 3 skills to make 1 good casted 20x times. While Ember was press 4 and go ham :P.

Now Gara's Mass vetrify was very open, AI did find ways around it and is terrain dependent, and any enemy with punch threw on thier weapons (ex. Grineer Ballasticas) passed right threw it not to mention all the flying enemies Infested had a lil trouble but they coped Ancients could pull you through it and infested drones flew over it. Now yes Mass vetrify was a lil OP but not in the ways DE decided to well make it useless.

So here is my reasons it was broken and my opinons on how it should of been fixed.

1: Range - The range at the cost of energy was just well stupid. Like Snow Globe it could get pretty darn huge but even to a crazy extent and it glassed everything inside. YES this was broken as all hell and leads to total area denial. Which DE in their words was trying to stop. The easy fix for this would be to just limit the range and have it uneffected by range mods. So limiting the range to say 15-20 meters still gave the option to make a fairly large wall at the cost of more energy spent or a smaller more focused wall around a teammate or objective.

2: Duration - This plagued the orginal SnowGlobe and is what started to turn Frost into the none interactive boring frame he is today. Again simple solution Limit the duration to say around 20 seconds. This in turn would make it have to be used often and keeping the player ingaged in watching his 20 timer to either break for splinter storm stack or recast and be focused on pure defense. This also would synergize alot more with Splinter storm.

3: Casting while jumping - Ya this was just broke. But you did this one to yourselves DE. You listened to the playerbase good on you and made it spread vertically more, but didn't take into account bullet jumping and making godly cylinders. Again simple fix make the skill unable to be casted while in air. This inturn makes mass vetrify situational and makes the player atleast have to think and plan how they will deploy the wall for max effectiveness.

So hope DE takes a good hard look at Gara's Ultimate 4th ability again. As her scaling does not even remotely go hand in hand with the type of nerf the implemented on her. And looks at the options i posted. Fixing all areas listed above IMO would be greater ways of fixing her ability and still having the unbreakable wall at the cost of planning and situational awareness.  While still leaving her a ingaging and fun frame to play and synergize well with her other abilities as it was intended for her to be played.

 

And DE stop nerfing frames. There is no endgame in warframe but the end game us players create by going as far as we can in defense and survival missions to get a challenge of higher lvl content other then sorties. If you must please balance for PvP which no one plays and let us have some fun in PvE.

[LSG501]

2 - the old duration was fine, nothing wrong there and making it less without changing it's energy usage is going to be a nerf, it's not like we have the old zenurik which ticked over all the time so we'd not only need to micro manage the wall, we'd likely need to micro manage our energy too.

3 - well if they remove 'bullet jump' heights then they better do something about the way it cuts through the ground if you cast on a hill

[ChaotikDreamz]

6 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

2 - the old duration was fine, nothing wrong there and making it less without changing it's energy usage is going to be a nerf, it's not like we have the old zenurik which ticked over all the time so we'd not only need to micro manage the wall, we'd likely need to micro manage our energy too.

The duration should be fixed even the orginal frost snow glode had a fixed duration and it was fine back then. Micro managing is what makes her a fun and ingaging frame to play. Also she has IMO no energy issues if i got and can maintain enough and more energy to stack splinter storm to crazy amounts of dmg melting lvl100+ Heavy Grineer and Infested Ancients as i run by there is no energy issue. And thats done with 1 forma'd Gara and no primed mods. Again this would open up the build options for gara.

9 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

3 - well if they remove 'bullet jump' heights then they better do something about the way it cuts through the ground if you cast on a hill

Again as i stated in my OP. This is where Gara wall would become situational and have to make the player think when, where, and find the best way to deploy the wall for max effctiveness. If the AI needs to think of ways to use the tilset to get around the wall. You should also be limited to that.

[Tokens210]

8 minutes ago, ChaotikDreamz said:

Again as i stated in my OP. This is where Gara wall would become situational and have to make the player think when, where, and find the best way to deploy the wall for max effctiveness. If the AI needs to think of ways to use the tilset to get around the wall. You should also be limited to that.

For me personally her wall height using double jump wasnt a big issue as its only really useful in levels with higher ceilings, but even then ive had enemies climb over a wall way to tall for them to have climbed, theres also if you happen to end your wall splitting a vaultable object like a barrier, enemies can vault thru your wall by simply climbing over that barrier as well as enemies that where within the walls barrier or enemies with large weapons could shoot thru the wall sometimes anyway, and like all abilities close to it AoE went thru the wall

 

and as far as the areas with little ramps or whatnot, the wall seemed to recognize if the levels floor got lower and the whole wall would clip further down to account but areas with small ramps it couldnt tell and as such would remain at the lowest point the floor was or the lowest point your feet where before you jump cast it

Edited December 8, 2017 by Tokens210

[LSG501]

18 minutes ago, ChaotikDreamz said:

Again this would open up the build options for gara.

 

But it wouldn't open up more build options, a fixed max time period no matter the duration mods is no better than the current HP based approach where there is a finite amount of time it will last no matter what we do to the build.   If we're 'pressing 4' every 20 seconds we'll go through a lot of energy if not built around efficiency (something we didn't need to do with the old gara or even the rework), thats around 300 energy per minute without any efficiency mods or using it to buff shatter storm. 

[ChaotikDreamz]

3 minutes ago, Tokens210 said:

For me personally her wall height using double jump wasnt a big issue as its only really useful in levels with higher ceilings, but even then ive had enemies climb over a wall way to tall for them to have climbed, theres also if you happen to end your wall splitting a vaultable object like a barrier, enemies can vault thru your wall by simply climbing over that barrier as well as enemies that where within the walls barrier or enemies with large weapons could shoot thru the wall sometimes anyway, and like all abilities close to it AoE went thru the wall

 

and as far as the areas with little ramps or whatnot, the wall seemed to recognize if the levels floor got lower and the whole wall would clip further down to account but areas with small ramps it couldnt tell and as such would remain at the lowest point the floor was or the lowest point your feet where before you jump cast it

Well IMO the bullet jumping version of godly cylinders was broken. But what they could still do in response to that is to take the verticle growth and hard cap it to more then what it was originally but not as it is now and say you got a 10 - 15 meter wall make the most of it. If you can't figure out the best place to put it. There's the openings DE wants to give their AI.

[Messkoo]

il y a 35 minutes, ChaotikDreamz a dit :

3: Casting while jumping - Ya this was just broke. But you did this one to yourselves DE. You listened to the playerbase good on you and made it spread vertically more, but didn't take into account bullet jumping and making godly cylinders. Again simple fix make the skill unable to be casted while in air. This inturn makes mass vetrify situational and makes the player atleast have to think and plan how they will deploy the wall for max effectiveness.

 

The first buff just after release was not good with the wall going below. This as make the actual situation, with, before "nerf" the possibility to make a 10 meter invul wall, resulting in the actual change because it was too much OP.

Fixing cast in air will be a solution, but not the good answer too. I think the wall need to have a fixed height BUT must fallow the ground and his height difference. So, in plain you keep you  X meter wall without "hole" under the wall and "no wall" upper it (because it's in hill).

 

[ChaotikDreamz]

9 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

But it wouldn't open up more build options, a fixed max time period no matter the duration mods is no better than the current HP based approach where there is a finite amount of time it will last no matter what we do to the build.   If we're 'pressing 4' every 20 seconds we'll go through a lot of energy if not built around efficiency (something we didn't need to do with the old gara or even the rework), thats around 300 energy per minute without any efficiency mods or using it to buff shatter storm. 

Ok your taken the 20 seconds to literally. It was a number tossed out for suggestion puproses. So for your sake we shall say 30-35 sec duration thats a fair split bwteen max duration build and max strength build.

Edited December 8, 2017 by ChaotikDreamz

[ChaotikDreamz]

3 minutes ago, Messkoo said:

The first buff just after release was not good with the wall going below. This as make the actual situation, with, before "nerf" the possibility to make a 10 meter invul wall, resulting in the actual change because it was too much OP.

Fixing cast in air will be a solution, but not the good answer too. I think the wall need to have a fixed height BUT must fallow the ground and his height difference. So, in plain you keep you  X meter wall without "hole" under the wall and "no wall" upper it (because it's in hill).

 

Fixing the wall to follow terrian would work in some situations like PoE but planet tilsets would be a nightmare on gangplanks and stairs.

[Messkoo]

yes, maybe fallowing the ground and stoping when the difference is to hight (like nidus first). this will make it more themed, glass is malleable (don't know if it's the good word) before vitrification.

[LSG501]

13 minutes ago, ChaotikDreamz said:

Ok your taken the 20 seconds to literally. It was a number tossed out for suggestion puproses. So for your sake we shall say 30-35 sec duration thats a fair split bwteen max duration build and max strength build.

So that would just take us back to what we had before with a nerf to the duration because you've not said anything about it having HP so I'm assuming you want it to have it to be immune again...many of us have been wanting this since the announcement but DE decided to nerf it to what we have now because 'they wanted to open up attacking options'... yeah I was enjoying another type of defence frame too

[ChaotikDreamz]

19 minutes ago, LSG501 said:

So that would just take us back to what we had before with a nerf to the duration because you've not said anything about it having HP so I'm assuming you want it to have it to be immune again...many of us have been wanting this since the announcement but DE decided to nerf it to what we have now because 'they wanted to open up attacking options'... yeah I was enjoying another type of defence frame too

I did state in my OP that the suggestions i set forth would bring back her unbreakable wall. And bring back what made her fun being a micro managed frame. And if micro managed wrong or not having situational awareness would be the players downfall. Before frost got his HP bubble nerf he had at one point a fixed duration and he was fine this also aloud frost players at the time to engage in gameplay but at the same time had to micro manage their bubble. Also the difference bwteen snowglobe at that time and today is frost can have multiple globes which inturn back then made his bubble OP when micro managed well. As compaired to gara the duration fix would actually work since she can only have 1 up at any given time.

 

1 hour ago, ChaotikDreamz said:

And looks at the options i posted. Fixing all areas listed above IMO would be greater ways of fixing her ability and still having the unbreakable wall at the cost of planning and situational awareness.  While still leaving her a ingaging and fun frame to play and synergize well with her other abilities as it was intended for her to be played.

 

Edited December 8, 2017 by ChaotikDreamz

[Sasuda]

Hey this thread is almost the same as

Can we focus feedback into the larger single thread to make it easy to see eveyone's ideas?

[(XBOX)TicKleTr0N]

It's Nerf or nothing! I agree that her 4th ability was fine as it was. Nullifies could easily take it down if you had too much range and leeches/eximus could still affect you. She was a nice alternative to frost that I personally enjoy playing a lot. After the PC changes what is the point of using her now? Mass Vitrify is a less potent snow globe with more negatives. Feels like I flushed five forma down the drain.

[ChaotikDreamz]

On 12/8/2017 at 11:02 PM, (Xbox One)TiCKLETR0N said:

It's Nerf or nothing! I agree that her 4th ability was fine as it was. Nullifies could easily take it down if you had too much range and leeches/eximus could still affect you. She was a nice alternative to frost that I personally enjoy playing a lot. After the PC changes what is the point of using her now? Mass Vitrify is a less potent snow globe with more negatives. Feels like I flushed five forma down the drain.

It shouldn't be nerf or nothing. I understand DE wants some balance. But it is PvE dungeon crawling. And as i stated for years players have made their own end gane going as far as they can in survival/defense missions. They need to let us have fun and give us some tougher content instead of nerfing frames to non existant places.