So the Kids get energy regen but frames don't?

[Ameijin-Grey]

2 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Thanks for clarifying, but I'm well aware, and I go into detail of the explanations of this, I'm not just saying 'oh, DE's word is law' I've given a full explanation and argument of this point already and my point about reading the thread was to show you that you're neither the first person to point this out, nor are you actually contributing to the conversation that is already happening by doing so, because you obviously haven't seen the point/counterpoint discussion that happened since.

I was only hoping to not re-tread the same conversation with a new person just because they hadn't finished the context.

Would it not be wiser to simply omit your initial comment about what DE does and is going to do, rather than expecting every person to read the whole thread before replying to you specifically? 

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Ameijin-Grey said:

Would it not be wiser to simply omit your initial comment about what DE does and is going to do, rather than expecting every person to read the whole thread before replying to you specifically? 

Why? It's the comment that sparked off half the thread in debate. If you're late to the party that's hardly my fault now, is it?

[Ameijin-Grey]

2 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Why? It's the comment that sparked off half the thread in debate. If you're late to the party that's hardly my fault now, is it?

It wasn't a debate. You were just wrong. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

8 minutes ago, Ameijin-Grey said:

It wasn't a debate. You were just wrong. 

How am I wrong? Your opinion is that DE aren't going to keep to that policy based on... what? That some of the things they said they wouldn't do, that don't impact gameplay, like dancing emotes, were implemented?

While my opinion, equally valid, and I'm not discounting yours, is that they will keep to it, backed up by a mountain of gameplay changes that indicate (and yes, only indicate, but this is some fairly substantial indication) that they want the exact opposite function for the game.

I can provide logical arguments as to why they won't do it and as to why they'll keep to that policy, while you have only so far said 'But they've put dancing emotes in the game, and they said they wouldn't'.

Please, and I'm not being sarcastic, give me some reason that would convince me, that any of my statements and arguments based on those statements, are wrong. This is what debate is; statement, counter-statement, logical discussion.

[(PSN)Croewe]

32 minutes ago, Ameijin-Grey said:

It wasn't a debate. You were just wrong. 

I may be against Thaylien's points myself but that does NOT mean he is wrong. As he stated this is a debate and as with any debate there are so many sides and issues that need to looked at that there is never really a wrong answer in a debate. Just like this a counterpoint to what he said.

 

19 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

That some of the things they said they wouldn't do, that don't impact gameplay, like dancing emotes, were implemented?

Something that largely affects gameplay that they said they would never do is putting extra stats on primes. I believe the first prime to get extra stats was Rhino getting a sprint speed buff.

 

 

 

That is how you debate never just say the person is flat out wrong that just shows how weak your own argument is.

Edited December 13, 2017 by (PS4)Chris_Robet

[Birdframe_Prime]

36 minutes ago, (PS4)Chris_Robet said:

Something that largely affects gameplay that they said they would never do is putting extra stats on primes. I believe the first prime to get extra stats was Rhino getting a sprint speed buff.

Hmm... fair enough. But in this case the trend of putting stats on Primes to make them better than the rest continued, and one thing they've never done, regardless, is affect the Abilities on Primes. Armour, health, shield, energy pool and speed seem to be the only ones they've ever added to since. Meanwhile their Prime Weapons have always been direct upgrades so you can see where the trend came from. The desire in this case was to make the Primes desirable past their base looks, and the minimum buff they could give them, if they were going to give them a buff, was the base stats.

So, yeah, I can see where the arguments for and against that kind of change were, and why the change was made.

Base passive energy regen that lasted the entire duration of a mission, however, was implemented, and then removed. Much like the Stamina Bar and cooldowns on abilities, and similar functions that were tested for a long, long time, and then taken out for better gameplay overall, making the game more what the developers were looking for. The passive energy regen function was allowed two years to exist, and then has since been removed in favour of an active system that allows better energy regen and access to our entire Focus trees without having to wait ten minutes between activations.

Zenurik used to be a minimum of 160 seconds to activate the full passive regen, 2 minutes and 40 seconds, and you still had to do the toggle dance to get it. If you wanted any of the other functions out of the tree it added 45 seconds to that for each additional function, and people didn't do that. They didn't use Focus for the effects of Focus. Which meant the system was badly designed and needed to be replaced.

They replaced it, and the replacement made the functions active, so that you are encouraged to integrate Operator play into your game with the abilities and active affects they add. There's even an Arcane you can get for them at the top end of the Quills' standing that grants your Warframe health when you enter and exit it, able to heal it up without needing plates, abilities or even Vazarin's healing dash (which is my personal favourite ability from the schools). You can even share two stat-boosting functions from each school permanently with the others, so you end up with an Operator as tanky and with as many abilities as a Warframe, with 5 flavours of ability to choose from. The price of this improvement being that they want you to jump out and dash every time you want a top up of energy from Zenurik seems to be completely fair to me, although that leads me on to the next point.

Given that the Energy economy in game is, as the Original Post stated, rather shoddy and largely reliant on your actual loadout (although I disagree with the base argument as I've not had any issue with it that play style can't compensate for... but that's anecdotal) there definitely needs to be improvement.

The concept to push, then, is that energy regen, according to all the changes the Devs have made in this recent Focus update, and some of the other earlier interesting additions such as Harrow's own active energy regain, and Octavia's passive that relies on active ability casting to trigger it, is the way forward.

The debate should no longer be 'do we need passive energy regen?', the debate should be 'what can we do with active energy regen?'

Should energy be rewarded for completing the objectives of the game? I say yes, it encourages players to spend more time actually completing the game's objectives and less time dancing. Should things like consistent kills with both weapons and abilities steadily increase the chance for orbs to drop up to a reasonable cap? That would also be good, since orbs still need to be gathered and cause players to run around more.

Passive regen for short durations could be granted for active things, and I say regen so that abilities that Drain can't then exploit them, like short bursts for hacking consoles in Spy and Rescue missions.

It's all possible, and the game has all the base functions there. I just don't understand why people have so little imagination or drive to improve the game that they'd prefer to backslide into lazy functions like passive energy regen.

Edited December 13, 2017 by Thaylien

[(PSN)Croewe]

35 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Wow this is a lot to unpack so let's go section by section shall we?

 

 

Hmm... fair enough. But in this case the trend of putting stats on Primes to make them better than the rest continued, and one thing they've never done, regardless, is affect the Abilities on Primes. Armour, health, shield, energy pool and speed seem to be the only ones they've ever added to since. Meanwhile their Prime Weapons have always been direct upgrades so you can see where the trend came from. The desire in this case was to make the Primes desirable past their base looks, and the minimum buff they could give them, if they were going to give them a buff, was the base stats.

This I have no arguments with I currently like the prime system as it works and it even had the cool interaction with void orbs. The comment was more meant to show how to properly debate things but since you were kind enough to provide a large amount of feedback let's go through it!

35 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

So, yeah, I can see where the arguments for and against that kind of change were, and why the change was made.

Base passive energy regen that lasted the entire duration of a mission, however, was implemented, and then removed. Much like the Stamina Bar and cooldowns on abilities, and similar functions that were tested for a long, long time, and then taken out for better gameplay overall, making the game more what the developers were looking for. The passive energy regen function was allowed two years to exist, and then has since been removed in favour of an active system that allows better energy regen and access to our entire Focus trees without having to wait ten minutes between activations.

The activation was most certainly a mistake to implement for a passive but unlike the stamina bar (thanks for bringing that nightmare up! :P) it added to the spice of the game allowing for more builds and build variety to emerge that dips further into negative efficiency/duration. Unfortunately unlike the stamina bar, which was largely disliked, the Devs took out a much enjoyed feature that a majority of the audience used. While the four energy a second was maybe a little to much the ability to have a consistent supply of energy far outweighed the negatives of 'lazy' play as many called it. 

 

I do agree a more active focused energy system is desirable I think having a passive energy per second system is something that can be better designed around. 

35 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Zenurik used to be a minimum of 160 seconds to activate the full passive regen, 2 minutes and 40 seconds, and you still had to do the toggle dance to get it. If you wanted any of the other functions out of the tree it added 45 seconds to that for each additional function, and people didn't do that. They didn't use Focus for the effects of Focus. Which meant the system was badly designed and needed to be replaced.

They replaced it, and the replacement made the functions active, so that you are encouraged to integrate Operator play into your game with the abilities and active affects they add. 

As I said above I don't think the delay for your passive was good but I think the current system is just as bad. They want us to integrate operators into our playstyle (which I would LOVE because they are such a unique concept that can add so much more into the game) but just dashing and jumping into your frame is not the way to do it, this makes the operators tedious chores to be fine every thirty seconds, which is where my idea to drain operator energy to fill your Warframes energy came to mind (they can even make it a waybound passive for the operator in the zenurik tree) which would encourage people to level up focus to make their operators more useful outside of their frame.

35 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

There'seven an Arcane you can get for them at the top end of the Quills' standing that grants your Warframe health when you enter and exit it, able to heal it up without needing plates, abilities or even Vazarin's healing dash (which is my personal favourite ability from the schools). You can even share two stat-boosting functions from each school permanently with the others, so you end up with an Operator as tanky and with as many abilities as a Warframe, with 5 flavours of ability to choose from. 

This I agree it's a wonderful arcane which leads to more operator focused playstyles and less resources bring spent while the different trees allow for varied playstyles which is important in a game focused on grinding like Warframe. You need variety or it'll get boring very very quickly.

35 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Theprice of this improvement being that they want you to jump out and dash every time you want a top up of energy from Zenurik seems to be completely fair to me, although that leads me on to the next point.

Given that the Energy economy in game is, as the Original Post stated, rather shoddy and largely reliant on your actual loadout (although I disagree with the base argument as I've not had any issue with it that play style can't compensate for... but that's anecdotal) there definitely needs to be improvement.

The concept to push, then, is that energy regen, according to all the changes the Devs have made in this recent Focus update, and some of the other earlier interesting additions such as Harrow's own active energy regain, and Octavia's passive that relies on active ability casting to trigger it, is the way forward.

The debate should no longer be 'do we need passive energy regen?', the debate should be 'what can we do with active energy regen?'

Should energy be rewarded for completing the objectives of the game? I say yes, it encourages players to spend more time actually completing the game's objectives and less time dancing. Should things like consistent kills with both weapons and abilities steadily increase the chance for orbs to drop up to a reasonable cap? That would also be good, since orbs still need to be gathered and cause players to run around more.

Passive regen for short durations could be granted for active things, and I say regen so that abilities that Drain can't then exploit them, like short bursts for hacking consoles in Spy and Rescue missions.

It's all possible, and the game has all the base functions there. I just don't understand why people have so little imagination or drive to improve the game that they'd prefer to backslide into lazy functions like passive energy regen.

And I'm out of time but I'll try to pick apart the rest is this later on. It's time for me to head to work!

[Birdframe_Prime]

12 minutes ago, (PS4)Chris_Robet said:

They want us to integrate operators into our playstyle (which I would LOVE because they are such a unique concept that can add so much more into the game) but just dashing and jumping into your frame is not the way to do it

Now here's where I offer a sly smile and the comment 'watch this space'.

I'm calling this ahead of time; The Sacrifice quest. Umbra is not the be-all and end-all of the thing, I think it's a by-product of what we're going to get out of it.

Operators are constantly evolving and we don't know what the possibilities of their powers are, but we do know something very interesting from the Lore; our frames aren't just robots, and you can't use Transference on non-living matter.

I'm almost entirely convinced that The Sacrifice is going to unlock Operator and Warframe combined combat. The Warframes are as locked down as our Operators were, and it may be that 'Umbra' may be the status of having 'awakened' a warframe, able to interact with that frame while not Transferred into it.

I mean... why else are our Operator powers not keyed to the 1234 buttons if not for the possibility... just the possibility... of being able to remote-activate powers while a Warframe follows other commands like a more-intelligent Specter?

Or why not be able to combo a dash from your Operator, or Blast, with Warframe melee combat? The simple shifts in functions, like being able to Executing Dash through enemies mid-combo would be insane...

Think about it. Because it's something a lot of other people are also thinking about.

The only other thing I'll say is that if you're using Zenurik and you're not smashing that E button to apply 80% slow on the enemies at the end of your dash, then you really should be, it's huge amounts of fun. Same with the Void Mode for grouping them all up (although the damage over time isn't really worth it there...). The reason you're finding the activation of the energy regen tedious is because you're not doing anything else with it, just using it as a passive.

[Eirshy]

Personally I say we should just buff Energy Siphon to 1.2/s

There's plenty of ways of getting energy, and all of them vastly superior to ESiphon. Only frame I really consider it "core" on is my Mirage, and that's because with high eff/duration, ESiphon keeps 1 and 3 up indefinitely by itself, which means I can run Madurai/Naramon instead of Zenurik comfortably.

[Ameijin-Grey]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Chris_Robet said:

I may be against Thaylien's points myself but that does NOT mean he is wrong. As he stated this is a debate and as with any debate there are so many sides and issues that need to looked at that there is never really a wrong answer in a debate. Just like this a counterpoint to what he said.

 

Something that largely affects gameplay that they said they would never do is putting extra stats on primes. I believe the first prime to get extra stats was Rhino getting a sprint speed buff.

 

 

 

That is how you debate never just say the person is flat out wrong that just shows how weak your own argument is.

Excuse me if I'm not trying as hard to debate over the forums about this video game as you are. In that particular situation, all I did was point out an inconsistency with what he was saying vs what actually happens with DE and Warframe, and here you are playing moderator. It's okay to say that someone is wrong. People can be wrong. What is there to debate over if you're wrong? Just how wrong he was? Or if he was wrong in the first place which is essentially him just trying to save face. 

Edited December 13, 2017 by Ameijin-Grey

[(PSN)Unstar]

On 12/10/2017 at 11:13 AM, (PS4)Chris_Robet said:

-As your operator uses energy your frame gets some.

This would do what they've been trying to encourage and make your kids useful in combat as a secondary battery of sorts.

Something close to this actually exists: whenever your Operator Void Dashes through an enemy, your Warframe gets energy.  It's been around for a long time.

That said I chose Zenurik and tend to run 175% efficiency on every frame, so I've never bothered. (I highly recommend doing this, by the way)

Edited December 15, 2017 by (PS4)Unstar

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

For all the players who don't have energy problems...Are they just better than you?

[Terrornaut]

14 hours ago, (PS4)Unstar said:

Something close to this actually exists: whenever your Operator Void Dashes through an enemy, your Warframe gets energy.  It's been around for a long time.

That said I chose Zenurik and tend to run 175% efficiency on every frame, so I've never bothered. (I highly recommend doing this, by the way)

Not sure if I even noticed the first, will have to see how much it is.  Pretty cool.  So many undocumented things @_@

 

175% efficiency is not efficient for all frames.  You'll lose out on power strength or other mods that could be substituted, and for some frames you'll just end up with weak useless casts that don't benefit from spam.  It doesn't matter if you can cast something 10 times instead of just once, if it takes 10 casts (which takes time, which can have all kinds of meanings), to do what 1 real cast could do.  Sure, the number on the energy bar is happier, but what does that really accomplish? 

Some frames, sure, it works, some frames its just plainly a terrible idea. One size fits all does not work for people irl or all frames, if you want to play to strengths and tailor experiences efficiently anyway.  But, if it works for you, works for you.  Not something I'd ever recommend to people as a blanket statement in my entire time playing wf though.

[(PSN)Unstar]

58 minutes ago, Terrornaut said:

Some frames, sure, it works, some frames its just plainly a terrible idea. One size fits all does not work for people irl or all frames, if you want to play to strengths and tailor experiences efficiently anyway.  But, if it works for you, works for you.  Not something I'd ever recommend to people as a blanket statement in my entire time playing wf though.

I hear you, didn't mean for my suggestion to come across as the perfect solution.  Just one solution that I personally love.

[Terrornaut]

Just now, (PS4)Unstar said:

I hear you, didn't mean for my suggestion to come across as the perfect solution.  Just one solution that I personally love.

Nah that's totally cool and pretty good you've found a mainstay you love.  I had a conversation with a guy who made the same exact assertion days ago, but he was entirely "No, if you disagree with me you are wrong and I am right. This is the way to mod."  without much changing of the wording.  He was entirely 'this is the way and any other way is wrong/trolling' and it was one of the most ridiculous and tyrant-nerd 'conversations' I've ever had to deal with.

[(PSN)Unstar]

1 minute ago, Terrornaut said:

Nah that's totally cool and pretty good you've found a mainstay you love.  I had a conversation with a guy who made the same exact assertion days ago, but he was entirely "No, if you disagree with me you are wrong and I am right. This is the way to mod."  without much changing of the wording.  He was entirely 'this is the way and any other way is wrong/trolling' and it was one of the most ridiculous and tyrant-nerd 'conversations' I've ever had to deal with.

"The way to mod" sounds like an assertion that misses the point of the modding system. :)

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

I think inherent energy regen may be too much, only due to DE wanting to get away from too many passive benefits and passive play styles, but i definitely agree with add more reliable interactive methods of gaining energy in combat.

I especially love it being tied to the Operator usage, to give them more purpose. My other thought comes from the idea of the controller class in DC Universe Online. Frames could get a buff like from Zenurik for energy regeneration upon using their first power, giving them more usage, but the buff would be weaker based on how much efficiency is modded to the frame. If you have negative efficiency, however, they likely wouldn't increase the buff otherwise everyone would just max out Blind Rage and have tons of energy and damage.

[Terrornaut]

24 minutes ago, (PS4)Riko_113 said:

I especially love it being tied to the Operator usage, to give them more purpose. My other thought comes from the idea of the controller class in DC Universe Online. Frames could get a buff like from Zenurik for energy regeneration upon using their first power, giving them more usage, but the buff would be weaker based on how much efficiency is modded to the frame. If you have negative efficiency, however, they likely wouldn't increase the buff otherwise everyone would just max out Blind Rage and have tons of energy and damage.

DCUO <3
But yeah, would be nice if there was more reason to use 1 on some frames, and if it provided a small regen (could stack in speed and some duration).

[DreamsmithJane]

On 12/13/2017 at 2:07 PM, Ameijin-Grey said:

Excuse me if I'm not trying as hard to debate over the forums about this video game as you are. In that particular situation, all I did was point out an inconsistency with what he was saying vs what actually happens with DE and Warframe

Except that you were wrong, too, because in this case, they already did that, and decided it was bad. They're not going to put it back in. It's been made abundantly clear that they don't want passive energy generation, because they want power to be derived from active participation. It's something that was specifically removed because it was demonstrated to run counter to their design principles. That's very different from saying they don't want to do something they haven't put into practice yet. And you would have understood that to some extent if you had read the rest of that post, rather than taking two lines out of context. You didn't have to read "the whole thread" to get that. Just read what you're actually responding to.

And before you try to make an issue of it, notice that even though I'm only quoting a couple of lines, I'm referring to things you've said throughout this thread, and not taking things out of context. Honestly, if you're not going to take this seriously or even bother to read and get yourself up to date on the context of the conversation, then you shouldn't bother typing, either. That's another point that's already been made, which you ignored. Talk less. Read more. Make sure that when you do interject, it's to say something of value, rather than putting others in the position of rehashing an ongoing debate for your benefit. If you don't care, then stay out of it.

[Ameijin-Grey]

33 minutes ago, DreamsmithJane said:

Except that you were wrong, too, because in this case, they already did that,

 

That's a logical fallacy. I never said that no one said what I said. Saying things multiple times does not make it incorrect. Please check your logic at the door. Everyone and their mom can say what I said, and they'd still be correct. Doesn't matter who said it first.

Edited December 15, 2017 by Ameijin-Grey

[Birdframe_Prime]

7 minutes ago, Ameijin-Grey said:

Please check your logic at the door.

Hey, just to let you know, because you made me laugh, this phrase comes from 'check your coat at the door' it means 'leave it there so you can come in without it'. So you've effectively just asked this person to abandon logic. Which I'm guessing wasn't your intent XD

[Ameijin-Grey]

1 minute ago, Thaylien said:

Hey, just to let you know, because you made me laugh, this phrase comes from 'check your coat at the door' it means 'leave it there so you can come in without it'. So you've effectively just asked this person to abandon logic. Which I'm guessing wasn't your intent XD

May as well abandon logic if the logic is incorrect. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 minute ago, Ameijin-Grey said:

May as well abandon logic if the logic is incorrect. 

Yes, but you haven't actually said how any of the logic is flawed. Usually that requires some kind of dialogue or explanation of your point, but both to me and to the other person you've just claimed we're wrong and never elaborated on how.

I mean, this other player's statement and reasoning is backed up by quite a history of evidence, so it's not a logically false statement; DE have never re-implemented something they've purposefully removed. It's why we've not had any cooldowns on abilities, stamina bars and so on since they were removed.

Once DE decide to actively take something out, they have historically done two things: either forgotten about it and left the new changes exactly as they are ever since with only minor tweaks to the system (e.g. parkour), or moved forward with the new method by building on the change as the basis for more (e.g. removing cooldowns plus fixed energy costs in favour of always-available casting for thematically variable energy costs, even building in other types of cost to replace energy in one case).

So the player's basic argument, which is saying that while your point was true for new things, where DE are known for implementing things despite saying they wouldn't before, your point does not apply for passive energy regen because it falls under the category of 'already tested and removed', which DE currently have a huge record of not going back on that kind of change.

I would say that, in terms of purely mathematical probability, it's possible they could re-implement it. Just that, logically speaking, the trend is overwhelmingly in the opposite.

[Ameijin-Grey]

2 minutes ago, Thaylien said:

Yes, but you haven't actually said how any of the logic is flawed. Usually that requires some kind of dialogue or explanation of your point, but both to me and to the other person you've just claimed we're wrong and never elaborated on how.

3

Simply because someone didn't go into detail as to how a person is wrong or how logic is flawed doesn't mean the opposite. This is yet another logical fallacy. This person was wrong because they assumed that since someone already presented my argument, my presenting of the information makes me incorrect. This is incorrect logic. I do not wish to argue with you, over nothing. This is going nowhere. 

[DreamsmithJane]

1 hour ago, Ameijin-Grey said:

That's a logical fallacy. I never said that no one said what I said. Saying things multiple times does not make it incorrect. Please check your logic at the door. Everyone and their mom can say what I said, and they'd still be correct. Doesn't matter who said it first.

No, it's not, and I never said anything about someone else saying it. I said DE already did it. You said the claim sounded similar to other things they said they didn't want to add, but those other things got added. The difference is that in this case, the thing was already part of the game for years and was deliberately removed because it doesn't fit with their vision of what the game is supposed to be. It's not at all the same as them saying they don't want to add something they haven't even tried yet, and then finding a reason to add it later. The logical fallacy was yours, in your first comment.

52 minutes ago, Ameijin-Grey said:

This is going nowhere.

Because you're not taking it anywhere. You're being contrary and not backing it up. Moreover, you're not even properly reading or understanding the things you're arguing against, and now you're railing against things nobody said.