Concerns over Ghoul Event

[Maganar]

I've played a few bounties from the new ghoul event.  Most of them have failed due to progression-stopping bugs - a higher percentage (for me, at least) and in a greater variety, incidentally, than I experienced on the release day of Plains of Eidolon.

While this is extremely unfortunate, the truth is that this is not what's bothering me, because any complex ongoing video game will experience bugs when new content comes out.  Quite frankly, there are some major issues with the way the Ghoul Purge event was implemented, and I think it's going to go down as a forgettable footnote at best and a frustration-causing letdown at worst.  I just want to take a moment here to highlight some major issues in its implementation that I have been able to see in just these opening attempts to experience it.  I want to say right here at the start that I think this event had a lot of potential and I'm glad DE makes the effort toward creating these events.  The reason for this topic is because I want DE to continue releasing these events, and if this one turns out to be as much of a dud as I'm suspicious it might, then I want them to have feedback at their disposal.  Wherever possible, I have provided counterpoints of times DE has done a great job at something that didn't work out right with the Ghoul Purge, to try and make this as useful as possible.  Bold text is used not to express anger, but rather to highlight key points since there is a lot of text here and I don't want the central ideas to be lost.  Sound good?  Let's go.

1) Bad planning on release ordering.  Let's face it: this event, even if it had been flawlessly delivered, would have been overshadowed by the return of the Acolytes since for some reason both went live not only on the same patch, but literally at the same time.  The Acolytes were something that had been built up by the community that people have been waiting for ever since they asked "Where does that come from?" when they first saw a guy selling Maiming Strike in trade chat for 900p.  Everyone wants their shot at the mods and the experience of taking the fight to the assassins on our own terms for a change rather than getting mugged by Stalker while leveling our new Unranked warframe.

The problem is more complex than just "Don't release two things at once" though.  DE is obviously trying to release an ambitious amount of content and if they are trying to keep on such a tight schedule then maybe they need to overlap things once in a while, I don't know.  What I do know is this: if you're going to release a few things at once, try not to overlap a couple with a huge disparity like this.  Acolytes were highly anticipated from far in advance (I'd been hearing about it for months) and the Ghouls were something most people who didn't watch devstreams didn't even know about.  Additionally, the Acolytes have been released before, so any bugs have been ironed out.  The Ghouls are new enemies with new mechanics in a new set of bounty modes on a map that is still fairly new... if it sounds like I'm using the word "new" a lot, it's because I am.  That many new things WILL have bugs.  The result: DE is pitting a highly-anticipated bug-free event against a recently-announced bug-swarmed event.  It's obvious the latter will be overshadowed by the former.  Combinations like this have to be avoided.

2) Unrewarding drops on repeated completions.  (This is the MOST IMPORTANT point of all!!!  If your read nothing else, DE, read this!) In one bounty, I acquired three Stubba blueprints.  That's right, count it - three blueprints from one bounty.  The only unique or meaningful drops from the bounties are the two new blueprints that are otherwise unattainable, and they drop absurdly easy.  So why the heck even bother to do more than a couple runs and then go back to daily capture activities... or that Acolyte event we've waited on for months!  But I've already been over that part, so moving on to the reward drops...

I get it.  Some players can't afford to grind out 100 bounty runs for a, say, 2.5% rare drop that's the only relevant blueprint (and frankly, that is very frustrating even for the people with the time).  The cool new gear should be accessible.  But there are better ways to do it: better ways which DE has already done in recent events.  Operation Plaguestar avoided this issue MAGNIFICENTLY.  By allowing us to earn points we could spend, people who only had the time to do a couple runs could just buy the event-exclusive blueprints (like Snipetron) and forget the rest.  For everyone with lots of time on their hands, there was an incentive to keep coming back and doing more and more and MORE runs because we could get things like free forma and Plains resources that were downright painful to farm normally.  There was never a point in Operation Plaguestar at which you were "done" receiving rewards from the event.  By contrast, I felt I was "done" with Ghoul Purge after three runs.  I had literally everything unique to the event and all non-unique items were trivial rather than meaningful.

People have already complained so much about how unrewarding ordinary Plains bounties feel (and it has received significant iteration in response), and this just feels even worse.  Hunter mods are not an excuse.  Those same mods were also rewarded in a similar fashion (just as actual enemy drops instead of reward drops) during Plaguestar, but during Plaguestar there was a REASON to keep going other than "well let me try again for that abysmally low drop rate rare mod."  You could say to yourself "Well, even if I don't get that one mod this time, I'll at least get a Forma for my trouble."  No such compensation from Ghoul Purge.

As for standing, I get Ostron standing.  Unlike the operational supply standing from Operation Plaguestar, my Ostron standing earnings for the day can cap out - and do, quickly.  Especially for people of lower MR than myself, only a couple bounties can leave them not only with all the unique blueprints, but also capped out on standing!  They can't even use standing from subsequent runs to purchase ordinary Ostron equipment blueprints like some Zaw parts or something, because they have capped out for the day!  Such a player quite literally earns nothing at all that they can possibly use after doing even two or three runs of the higher-standing bounty.  This is an extremely concerning flaw.  My suggestion?  You already did this the right way once, DE.  Operation Plaguestar balanced rewards perfectly.

3) Frustrating enemy design for iconic new enemies.  The new enemies have a very clear running theme.  As the update notes said, they are the close-range specialists concocted by Dr. Tengus at Vey Hek's request, and they are all about getting in your face.  They also have a cool running theme in that they all tear out of the ground and the Augers can repeatedly perform subterranean attack maneuvers.  The subterranean theme works very well with their zombie-like appearance (since zombies rip their way out of their graves; I have a feeling this was intentional) that is reminiscent of zombie portrayals in franchises like Left 4 Dead (never played those games myself, but very much getting the vibes of what I've seen from them).  This is all very, very cool.  Much kudos.

What is not so much earning my satisfaction is the way that the way in which this theme bleeds over into combat and becomes very obnoxious.  The Plains of Eidolon already amped up things to 11 in forcing us to worry about enemy crowd control and cooperation.  The sheer number of Blast procs that Plains enemies can dish out is remarkable.  One release day, the mortars were blatantly overpowered because of how much damage they did in addition to the strong utility of their crowd control, but that was quickly nerfed.  Their damage was made forgettable and they were turned into crowd control bombs (literally, I suppose) that constantly cause knockdown if not eliminated.  The threat of Grattler-wielding Heavy Gunners and other units capitalizing on those Blast knockdowns had made the Plains a unique experience separate from other missions in Warframe.  This was well done.

Not so with the Ghouls.  The Ghouls have no patterns of capitalization where ones takes advantage of what another does.  They all just bum-rush you and darn at they good at bum-rushing you.  They dash like Grineer manics, but whereas a manic would just deal damage and run out, these guys Blast proc you, they slow you, and they stagger you.  For enemies that are SO good at closing the gap, this amount of crowd control is criminal, particularly when they can also dish out sizable damage.  Furthermore, the idea of combining Cold and Toxin effects in a dispersion cloud upon their death (and instantaneous cloud, unlike the delayed cloud of Nox units) was not a good one, plain and simple.  It punishes you for letting them close the gap on you EVEN if you kill them... but they can close that gap almost instantly.  It's punishing you for something you can't prevent.  Nox clouds are done the right way.  You have the chance to kill them at a distance (since it is a distance unit), but you have to be quick before they charge you.  Even if they do charge you, there is a very short window of time to get clear before the "pop."  There is, in short, counterplay.  As for the Ghouls, you are punished for the Ghouls doing what the Ghouls inevitably WILL do whether you like it or not that they are going to do it.

The Cold in particular is overkill.  You have already been Blast procced, staggered, or knocked down by other means most likely.  Now all animation speeds - including standing up - are put into slow motion.  Firing is put into slow motion, preventing you from killing any other Ghouls at range before they can charge, setting off a chain reaction.  And since the Ghouls spawn en masse and die equally en masse, I have watched entire "Burial Grounds" turn into one giant cloud of Cold and Toxin with all the Tenno warframes just hoping as if in low gravity trying to play a game of "don't touch the ground" and failing horribly.

My suggestion?  If you want a thematic enemy threat, pick a proc (and one proc, not two) that isn't overbearing by causing a perma-crowd-control chain.  In particular, I would suggest actually using the combined element we get from Cold and Toxin: Viral.  Viral is INSTANTLY threatening to warframes, whether they rely primarily on shields or health, because they ones that double-down on shields are perilously easy to kill with enemy slash procs and ones that double down on health now find their primary stat halved.  It is threatening, but not overbearing by creating a crowd control chain that prevents you from moving and firing.  Additionally, it is thematic, since the Expired Ghouls are supposed to be sickly (and they all look terribly unhealthy) and they are pretty much exploding their guts all over us on death.  And if you needed one more reason: these are zombie-inspired Grineer units, yes?  And zombies in popular culture are associated with plagues, yes?  So why did it not cross your mind to use the less-frustrating and more thematic Viral proc!

Cold and Toxin, on the other hand, are not thematic - neither one of them!  None of the Ghouls use Cold or Toxin attacks - in fact, the Augers use HEAT attacks... yet explode into COLD auras on death...  This doesn't make any sense, thematically, and it's frustrating from a gameplay standpoint.  It should have been replaced with another proc like Viral (for reasons explained above) or Heat (because something with flamethrowers that explodes could naturally set you on fire, and this is another proc that isn't overbearing for enemies to spam).

Once again, let's compare to something well-designed already in warframe: Nox units have a Toxin theme from their attacks, aura, and death cloud.  This is their singular unifying identity and they don't arbitrarily have another effect that could cause frustrating synergy (e.g. Viral/Toxin so your health would be halved and then removed with Toxin).  The Ghouls have nothing that should cause Cold, they attack with Heat and Blast, yet they inflict Cold and Toxin on death - two effects that cause frustrating synergy by virtually immobilizing you with Cold, and leaving you trapped in Toxin clouds that will kill you for standing around (which the Cold makes you do, without any agency on your part).  Simply put, DE, not every new enemy needs to create a Sortie-style challenge.  If you introduce a new Corpus unit that reliably activates Radiation procs onto all warframes with an AoE attack, for example, players will riot.  I'm sure you realize this.  Some things just aren't ok for normal play and have to stay restrained to challenge modes like Sorties.  Ghouls, while still within the acceptable boundaries for ordinary play, are pushing the limits and do so in a way that creates more frustration than it does meaningful engagement.

4) Inconsiderate codex scan implementation.  This may admittedly be more of a personal gripe than a sweeping issue, but this is still something that DE should avoid in my opinion that I think they need to hear from players so I'll cover this as well.  I'll admit I'd prefer DE focus on the above three points and I am only covering this one to be thorough.  I have started to get interested in trying to max out as many codex entries as I can for Simulacrum testing and Captura action scenes (Fashion Frame is the true endgame after all, correct?).  The numbers of scans expected for various ghouls are ridiculous and illogical.  The four basic enemy types (Expired, Rictus, Auger, and Devourer) have a reasonable number for a basic enemy type: 20 scans.  The capture target is getting questionable - also 20 scans.  Yes, other capture targets have this as well, but those stay indefinitely and capture is a game mode people run a nigh-infinite amount of times for various reasons and they will eventually max those out very quick (makes sense for the same reason it's ok that Kuva requires 50 scans).  But it's more questionable here because, from what I understand, this is a temporary event like Plaguestar.  I'm assuming the Ghouls will come back at some point (doesn't make sense to make all those assets and then throw them away after a short event) but if these enemies are not permanently available to gradually scan up 20 capture bounty stages, then it requires an arbitrary and annoying grind just to get codex scans... and we've already talked about how there doesn't feel like any meaningful reward coming from repeated runs.

But this one is... more than just questionable: Ghoul Expired DEFECTOR?  20 scans?  Like the capture target, this one can only occur a maximum of once per bounty stage, and I believe it is impossible to have more than one per bounty run.  That should already raise concerns if we are going to require 20 scans of this unit and the it is going to be a limited-time-access set of enemy units.  But this issue is compounded with the fact you are asking codex completionists to scan an ally... that is always running (usually erratically and very quickly)... before the end of a limited-time event?  And you can't use Helios either, because Helios can't figure out to scan it because it is an ally.  Helios will even scan cryopods and core pipes on its own because those are objects, but Helios just can't figure out that it needs to scan what are literally allied troops.  Which makes some sense, actually, because the fact there is an entry for this at all is silly.  But what's even sillier is where the scans are catalogued - they go under the Enemy units section, not the Objects section.  Perhaps there is a joke about the objectification of intelligent living things to be made here... but aren't defense objectives typically under the Objects category?  Consistency would be nice - as would less required scans.

On a related note, I have yet to get a single scan of an alpha even with Helios since they die so fast in public matches, so I can't even say how many are required.  If it requires three, that is reasonable.  However, based on the slapped-on amounts of scans other require, I wouldn't be surprised if it was 12 (a common value for "semi-common" troops as I like to call them), or, heaven forbid, also 20.  You may say "well why don't you do Solo matches, Maganar, so no one else can kill it?"  Well, I did.  And it turns out that's another (repeatable) bug in the new event.  Solo runs that have the "assassinate target" bounty stage simply do not progress.  They freeze, and you are forced to leave the Plains without the target ever spawning.  I had the good luck to get three assassination target first stages in a row (after bailing solo attempts that gave me different first objectives) and each one reproducibly failed by refusing to spawn enemies. (I'd start a topic about this as well in bug reports, but I've written a small book on this topic to start with and I'm feeling a bit worn out just proofreading this one.  Perhaps someone else can do this to bring DE's attention to the bug is this does not.)

The takeaway I get from all I've seen with the codex scanning is that someone just slapped down some numbers of codex scans inconsiderately - and in one case didn't even think which section an entry should be filed under.  Someone just used the "typical" values for a "common unit" (20 scans) and the "typical" values for scans of objectives (also 20, incidentally) and said it was a job well done.  DE is normally more considerate of their codex completionists.  Rail specters, for example, only require one scan to save everyone the tedium of going to a rail several times (since rails missions do nothing consequential after you beat it the first time).  Likewise specters from apothics are limited to one scan because that would be painful to farm a whole pile of apothics just to clear the codex entries.  No one seems to have paid any attention to this with the latest event because there was too much focus on the actual missions.  While I'd certainly rather have bug-free missions... oh wait, we don't have bug-free missions.  Understandably so (as stated earlier), and I commiserate, since updates are hard work.  But I guess we don't even have that.  So, since we are going to have to suffer through the bugs because they are unavoidable, couldn't we just have the quality-of-life of reasonable codex scanning goals as compensation?  Unreasonable codex scan numbers are something that can be avoided, unlike the unforeseen bugs.  Keeping these smaller things in order does a lot to take the sting out of an otherwise messy release, because then I can at least walk away from the mission and say "well at least I can play with these guys in Captura afterward and goof off."

TL;DR  Completely understandable if you need a short version since this is a mountain of examples and counterpoints provided in the hope of being helpful feedback.  Quite simply, I'm just asking this, DE: play to your strengths.  Operation Plaguestar was thoroughly enjoyable for me, and everyone I can remember talking to during that event loved the rewards system and felt encouraged to keep playing more rounds.  Acolytes were also something we all knew people would get excited over.  So play up to that.  Set some time aside from other releases to do the Acolytes as their own separate event rather than distracting people with two at once, then give us a satisfying rewards system for the new event to keep us from focusing on its unpolished and buggy parts.  Keep the enemies within reason rather than trying to tack on too many procs just for the sake of a crowd control fiesta.  You're good at making highly thematic enemies, DE, whether it's disruptive Corpus units or deadly Heat and Toxin Grineer DoT units.  Even so, you have to venture out of your comfort zone to keep things fresh and interesting, and when you try new things, you can't always control the number of bugs or negative receptions to new mechanics.  Even in those cases, the one thing you can control are quality-of-life factors (like codex scans at reasonable values!) so focus on keeping those small, tangible things in good order if nothing else, rather than forcing another hundred-something scans onto a codex completionist for what is only four new character models.  But above all else, give us a reason to keep doing more rounds and don't lock half the reward (in this case, Ostron standing) behind a daily standing cap.  You've done better events in the past, DE, and you will continue to make better ones in the future.  But I think we have a lot we can learn from this event because there's plenty of stuff that just doesn't feel right with this one.  Best of luck around this busy holiday time, and thank you all for the constant updates to a great game.

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Maganar
Typo corrections

[BansheePrime]

From what I understand the ghouls are a recurring event and will only be present while the event is active.

[Maganar]

Just now, maj.death said:

From what I understand the ghouls are a recurring event and will only be present while the event is active.

Thank you for confirming this.  I was suspicious of this as well, and it alleviates some of the concern over silly numbers of codex scans, but I hope some of the other lessons to be learned here can prove valuable.

I'm still not sure what the best way would have been to balance the rewards for a recurring event such as what this seems to be, but what I can say for certain is that the current situation does not feel like the right way.  What use does anyone have for 100x Stubba blueprints?  It's going to reach the point where it feels as insulting as the 2x Orokin Cells as a rare bounty drop.  This really is the most important part for DE to iron out for next time in my opinion if the Ghoul Purges are to be a regular event of any interest to the community.

[Trichouette]

il y a 13 minutes, Maganar a dit :

In one bounty, I acquired three Stubba blueprints.  That's right, count it - three blueprints from one bounty. 

Have to grind too hard for the event's reward > complain

Get all the rewards in a single/few run(s) > complain

 

I don't see the problem......

The bounty reward system is flawed but i'm glad these weapons aren't that hard to obtain.

The point in repeating these bounties is to obtain the hunter mods for those who don't have them, and the journal pages, on top of the obvious ostron standing.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Trichouette

[LameLaYou]

On one camp there's people saying that they've run the bounties many times and not gotten a single weapon bp and these new weapons put behind the bounty RNG was a bad idea, and on another camp there's people saying that the bps are way too common.

On one camp there's people saying that PoE is a cakewalk and was largely underwhelming after all the hype over the dangers lurking out there. On the other camp people are saying that PoE is too dangerous, being bombarded left right and center.

Now we're split into two camps again - one that feels the ghouls are nothing but cannon fodder and the other that feels they do their job of disrupting combat far too well.

I don't know I'm really genuinely quite puzzled here.

[Maganar]

Just now, LameLaYou said:

On one camp there's people saying that they've run the bounties many times and not gotten a single weapon bp and these new weapons put behind the bounty RNG was a bad idea, and on another camp there's people saying that the bps are way too common.

On one camp there's people saying that PoE is a cakewalk and was largely underwhelming after all the hype over the dangers lurking out there. On the other camp people are saying that PoE is too dangerous, being bombarded left right and center.

Now we're split into two camps again - one that feels the ghouls are nothing but cannon fodder and the other that feels they do their job of disrupting combat far too well.

I don't know I'm really genuinely quite puzzled here.

I was looking at that other topic (maybe I directed you here with the link I dropped?) and I saw that, too.  Personally, I would like to say this - from my personal standpoint.  I actually agree the Ghouls are glorified cannon fodder.  However, I believe they are glorified cannon fodder which disrupts to a degree that makes gameplay unnecessarily frustrating.  Perhaps there are other people who are in the "too stronk Ghouls!!!" camp who either feel as I do or would feel as I do if they could past their frustration and look objectively at how weak the Ghouls really are?

There's going to be divisive attitudes every time DE tries out enemies that fit into a new niche - and both parties will probably become more accepting of them in the future.  I used to play before Nox units existed and came back from hiatus to discover them, so I missed the reception but I believe it was similarly divided from what I hear.  Now everyone accepts them (and I use them as an example I am ok with).  What concerns me most of Ghouls (and why I have decided to express concern even after considering I might be over-reacting to a new and unfamiliar enemy I may get used to with time) is the sheer NUMBER of different things one unit can do, and so reliably.  Additionally, they have a great thematic identity that is lost in terms of their actual abilities because they are just overloaded with proc varieties until the point the theme gets so noisy from containing everything but the kitchen sink.  This isn't a trend that I want to see going any further in its current direction because enemies could get overloaded that way, and we won't have the cool thematic enemies I am used to seeing from DE (and love to see!).

[BlackCoMerc]

Excellent post, OP.

I agree that the combination Cold and Toxic proc is overkill. Even in it's own, insta popping that cloud is too much.

But the Ghouls also have Blast, Stagger and grappling hooks. My first run was Rhino Prime, using his 2, Tedium Remover (aka, Iron Skin). It was cake.

My second run, I tried Inaros. No dice; spent 15 seconds getting chain knockdowns. Terrible Experience.

But the worst part? The "git gud" responses. As if this is a matter of skill when clearly it's not.

Skill doesn't escape a blast proc from enemies who tunnel and appear behind you. Or toxic clouds that pop up IMMEDIATELY on killing the same enemies. Or grappling hooks that clip through terrain and enemies...skill doesn't compensate for bad enemy design and obnoxious amounts of anti-player crowd control.

DE has reached a critical threshold with Grineer enemies and input robbing attacks. Grineer simply aren't fun any longer. They're sheer Tedium. DE's vested interest in making rewards as tedious to earn as possible has bled over into enemy design, and it's really killing the fun.

[LameLaYou]

55 minutes ago, Maganar said:

-snip-

Perhaps it's not the design of the unit that's the issue, but the sheer numbers they pop up in during the bounties? I mean, if you'd have that many Nullifiers, Noxes, Manics, or other units of the like, it's the combined bombardment of each individual unit's mechanics that'll screw you over. From personal experience the squads I join that dispatch/CC these units quickly are able to keep numbers low and their mechanics hardly come into play. Anyway, they sorta fit into that crazed theme - little regard for their own well-being and entirely devoted to wiping your face all over the floor. They're not tough to handle but when they get to you they'll mess you up real good.

With regards to the vastly differing standpoints on various aspects of the game I really can only attribute it to largely differing playstyles each player takes up. The one-shot-everything-min-maxer is probably going to be upset at the Nox's damage limiting mechanic whereas the keep-shooting-until-it-dies player isn't, the leeroy jenkins is probably going to dive into the buttload of ghouls and get CCed to oblivion while the CC-for-days player is going to breeze through everything. There's an immense number of different approaches to the equally vast possibilities of scenarios encountered by a player and naturally certain approaches suit certain scenarios which is why I'm a firm believer that constantly holding onto a specific playstyle and not considering the big differences and small nuances each new scenario brings leads to this.

[BlackCoMerc]

1 minute ago, LameLaYou said:

Perhaps it's not the design of the unit that's the issue, but the sheer numbers they pop up in during the bounties? I mean, if you'd have that many Nullifiers, Noxes, Manics, or other units of the like, it's the combined bombardment of each individual unit's mechanics that'll screw you over. From personal experience the squads I join that dispatch/CC these units quickly are able to keep numbers low and their mechanics hardly come into play. Anyway, they sorta fit into that crazed theme - little regard for their own well-being and entirely devoted to wiping your face all over the floor. They're not tough to handle but when they get to you they'll mess you up real good.

With regards to the vastly differing standpoints on various aspects of the game I really can only attribute it to largely differing playstyles each player takes up. The one-shot-everything-min-maxer is probably going to be upset at the Nox's damage limiting mechanic whereas the keep-shooting-until-it-dies player isn't, the leeroy jenkins is probably going to dive into the buttload of ghouls and get CCed to oblivion while the CC-for-days player is going to breeze through everything. There's an immense number of different approaches to the equally vast possibilities of scenarios encountered by a player and naturally certain approaches suit certain scenarios which is why I'm a firm believer that constantly holding onto a specific playstyle and not considering the big differences and small nuances each new scenario brings leads to this.

In theory you're right.

In practice, however, the problem is this: the CC everything all the time player will ALWAYS be right in Warframe. 

Meanwhile, players who actually want to ENGAGE AND FIGHT enemies will suffer Tedium because the game is designed around making enemies dangerous in the 0.1 second time frame between CC casts...

That's got to change. DE claim they don't want power spam, but punish us for not spamming CC.

[VampirePirate]

2 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

In theory you're right.

In practice, however, the problem is this: the CC everything all the time player will ALWAYS be right in Warframe. 

Meanwhile, players who actually want to ENGAGE AND FIGHT enemies will suffer Tedium because the game is designed around making enemies dangerous in the 0.1 second time frame between CC casts...

That's got to change. DE claim they don't want power spam, but punish us for not spamming CC.

This reminds me of Raids

[LameLaYou]

Just now, BlackCoMerc said:

In practice, however, the problem is this: the CC everything all the time player will ALWAYS be right in Warframe. 

The whole hoo-hah over nullifiers and power useage limitation mechanics like energy drain was largely from players of this group was it not?

There's always going to be a kryptonite to whatever form of superman you choose to assume.

11 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

But the worst part? The "git gud" responses. As if this is a matter of skill when clearly it's not.

Skill doesn't escape a blast proc from enemies who tunnel and appear behind you. Or toxic clouds that pop up IMMEDIATELY on killing the same enemies. Or grappling hooks that clip through terrain and enemies...skill doesn't compensate for bad enemy design and obnoxious amounts of anti-player crowd control.

And there's a certain level of competency involved in being able to prevent these things from happening to you. Even if you don't use CC/wide AoE killing abilities, there's always the option of sticking to your allies, or better positioning.

[LameLaYou]

6 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

That's got to change. DE claim they don't want power spam, but punish us for not spamming CC.

Take a look at which aspects of the game power usage limiting mechanics actually come into play and approach this question: does DE not want power spam at all?

Regardless, are the bounties really so difficult that you actually have to spam your CC abilities? Like to the point of raids, or sorties, or whatever high levelled content that DE wants to put in that limitation for power spamming for? Are these units really that hard to deal with?
 

4 minutes ago, VampirePirate said:

This reminds me of Raids

The reason raids worked in favor of CC was that killing stuff wasn't even a requirement. I mean, if you had a loadout that could clear raid enemies with as little effort as dropping a few CCs, then I'd imagine there'd be no issues with that as well? Why not right? It does the job! 

[VampirePirate]

12 minutes ago, LameLaYou said:

Take a look at which aspects of the game power usage limiting mechanics actually come into play and approach this question: does DE not want power spam at all?

Regardless, are the bounties really so difficult that you actually have to spam your CC abilities? Like to the point of raids, or sorties, or whatever high levelled content that DE wants to put in that limitation for power spamming for? Are these units really that hard to deal with?
 

The reason raids worked in favor of CC was that killing stuff wasn't even a requirement. I mean, if you had a loadout that could clear raid enemies with as little effort as dropping a few CCs, then I'd imagine there'd be no issues with that as well? Why not right? It does the job! 

I don't think ghoul bounty missions are all that difficult.

As for Raids, i was just saying that the argument reminded me of them.

You make some interesting points.

[BlackCoMerc]

36 minutes ago, LameLaYou said:

Take a look at which aspects of the game power usage limiting mechanics actually come into play and approach this question: does DE not want power spam at all?

Regardless, are the bounties really so difficult that you actually have to spam your CC abilities? Like to the point of raids, or sorties, or whatever high levelled content that DE wants to put in that limitation for power spamming for? Are these units really that hard to deal with?
 

The reason raids worked in favor of CC was that killing stuff wasn't even a requirement. I mean, if you had a loadout that could clear raid enemies with as little effort as dropping a few CCs, then I'd imagine there'd be no issues with that as well? Why not right? It does the job! 

The Bounties aren't hard. It's just that groups of Ghouls are tedious. Not hard, just annoying.

As for power spam...it's the preferred technique in most missions. Mostly, I suspect, due to armor scaling. The sponginess just means that on any mission where killing is not the main goal, inflated enemy TTK pushed players toward CC spam.

I just wish we had more enemies we could engage and fight. Instead, either cheese them to obsolescence or they Rob us of input and turn game play into Tedium.

[LameLaYou]

1 hour ago, VampirePirate said:

As for Raids, i was just saying that the argument reminded me of them.

Aha oops, misinterpreted. My bad!

1 hour ago, BlackCoMerc said:

The Bounties aren't hard. It's just that groups of Ghouls are tedious. Not hard, just annoying.

As for power spam...it's the preferred technique in most missions. Mostly, I suspect, due to armor scaling. The sponginess just means that on any mission where killing is not the main goal, inflated enemy TTK pushed players toward CC spam.

I just wish we had more enemies we could engage and fight. Instead, either cheese them to obsolescence or they Rob us of input and turn game play into Tedium.

Eh, fair point on the last statement. But this is an event yes? I'm thinking in the lines of that one manic tactical alert we had quite some time ago - manics flooded that mission but solely for the purpose of that tactical alert. Once it was over and done manics became sorta like a special occurrence. If the Ghouls follow suit then after the event they won't be as cancer yes?

[BlackCoMerc]

33 minutes ago, LameLaYou said:

Aha oops, misinterpreted. My bad!

Eh, fair point on the last statement. But this is an event yes? I'm thinking in the lines of that one manic tactical alert we had quite some time ago - manics flooded that mission but solely for the purpose of that tactical alert. Once it was over and done manics became sorta like a special occurrence. If the Ghouls follow suit then after the event they won't be as cancer yes?

True enough...but I'd like to see Ghouls stay. They're really cool. The only issue is their over reliance on cheap control robbing.

[Maganar]

Long post, but I'm coming back to this topic after leaving it all night and as the OP I want to weigh in on all people have added:

Looks like this topic has mostly turned into a place for discussing Ghouls, even though I had anticipated the balancing of rewards to be a larger concern.  This fine, of course.  The truth is that any time someone starts a topic about something that might be unhealthy for the community, they may discover that other people could care less and that's why these are "discussion" forums and not "rant" forums - we discuss things and find out which points remain true for the greatest number of players.  It appears that more people are concerned that Ghouls are un-fun as enemies than people are concerned with the rewards tables.  I guess this is the bigger point that DE should monitor.  That's why we make these topics after all: to find out what the real issues are.

A thought occurred to me last night after I'd left the forums that I want to offer here.  I confessed that Ghouls are simply glorified cannon fodder, but point out that this didn't alleviate the annoyance they represent as enemies.  I wonder if DE specifically planned for Ghouls to be completely overloaded in terms of the number of things they can do and specifically chose to make them abysmally easy to kill so that they could remain balanced.  Perhaps the idea was to have enemies that are very skilled in bombarding you with an overload of procs and crowd control, demanding that you respond by killing them as quickly as they spawned?

If so, that's sensible logic, but anything taken to an extreme gets annoying, quickly.  This may be what we are seeing with Ghouls - the ease-of-kill factor to balance their overloaded-kit factor which has gotten so extreme it has simply broken the community into two camps, neither of which can see past one of those two aspects.

Also, in regards to the whole conversation surrounding warframe selection... I firmly believe Warframe is a game designed around the premise that certain warframes will - by design - be better suited to certain tasks than others.  It's even in the achievement names.  "The Right Tool for the Job" and "Each Tool with its Purpose" or whatever.  This is part of the core philosophy of the game and if DE were to abandon it, then the game would lose one of its defining features.  What is more troubling is the way in which many people have found the "right" warframes for fighting Ghouls are the ones that can 100% trivialize their mehcanics entirely.  Rhino will use Iron Skin and negate all incoming procs.  If Ghouls are just a proc-fest, he has now trivialized the encounter.  Trinity will negate all crowd control procs with Link, then heal any DoT procs... Ghouls only HAVE crowd control and DoT procs, so they are again trivialized.  Personally I believe Trinity is a warframe as overloaded as Ghouls are (there is never a mission type in which Trinity is not a "right" warframe), but that is it's own separate discussion - yet, a related one!  If the only answer to Ghouls is to fight overloaded enemies with overloaded warframes, then that establishes a meta in which the overloaded warframes are to-be-played and other are not-to-be-played.  Some people, sadly, already see the game this way... but we should avoid that outcome.

Rhino and Trinity will dominate these discussions, but they are not the only solution.  However, all other solutions follow a similar trend: they trivialize the encounter by simply avoiding all interaction with the Ghouls and their unique mechanics.  I play Ivara a goofy amount, and she proved to be my solution because I can turn invisible and the Ghouls have no idea where to charge.  I never get hit by anything since they have no threatening ranged or AoE attacks (though I'm still perpetually slowed to my annoyance).  But is this meaningful gameplay?  I have beaten the Ghoul encounter by refusing to interact with it.  I have simply made myself completely untargetable for the Ghouls.  I did one bounty where everyone else was dropping like flies and I cakewalked through reviving all of them and killing the Ghouls... but it wasn't fun.  It was a shooting gallery.  Ordinary Plains isn't like this even though I go perma-invisibility as soon as a defense objective starts.  Why?  Because I have the threat of AoE ranged attacks or bad positioning (in a firing line between enemies and the defense target) causing me to get hit.  I have to maintain situational awareness and this engages me.  With Ghouls, I refuse to engage them, because as soon as I do, all my user input is taken from me in a lockdown of back to back crowd control procs.  Just like Rhino and Trinity, I have found a way to trivialize the encounter even though I took  a warframe of my choosing (so I don't need to be told "git gud" because I beat it)... but if I am beating it by trivializing it, then I have lost all interest in playing it.  I have not engaged.  Enemies should not punish you for engaging them (and there are multiple ways to "engage," not just a head-on assault).  The result is a cheesefest of either getting cheesed by enemy procs or cheesing the enemies with abilities they have no way to counter.

I thank everyone for their input, because reading through it all makes me think I am closer to the root of the problem.  I believe this is the biggest problem: Ghouls would be infinitely healthier if properly interspersed with regular Grineer mobs rather than in giant puddles of cheese fondue.  As LameLaYou said:

13 hours ago, LameLaYou said:

Perhaps it's not the design of the unit that's the issue, but the sheer numbers they pop up in during the bounties? I mean, if you'd have that many Nullifiers, Noxes, Manics, or other units of the like, it's the combined bombardment of each individual unit's mechanics that'll screw you over. From personal experience the squads I join that dispatch/CC these units quickly are able to keep numbers low and their mechanics hardly come into play.

I didn't think to consider the problem this way, and I believe you have NAILED IT.  The comparison to Nullifiers in particular drove home the message, as those are obviously units with clear counterplay (and things they counter) which are healthy because of how they are gradually interspersed among other troops... but the imagine of 20 Nulllifier Crewman charging me with no normal units in the mix?  Oh heck no, that would be awful!  ...As bad as 20 Ghouls charging me, perhaps?  Hm, yes... and thus I can see what you are saying and it makes sense to me.  You also say that the teams that get rid of Ghouls quickly do so in such a way that "their mechanics hardly come into play."  To me, that sounds EXACTLY like my concern that I can't "engage" a Ghoul.  To experience their mechanics and the threat they represent is to instantly find myself in an unsatisfying chain of crowd control where I must watch rather than play the game.  To beat them, I must create a situation where Ghouls are just cardboard cutouts to shoot at which never actually threaten me.  It can be done, but once it has been done, the Ghouls are no longer unique enemies providing anything new to the game (defeating the entire point of adding new mission types and new enemies to accompany them).

This is precisely the way to make Ghouls healthy.  Imagine, if you will, that Ghouls did not pop up in giant Burial Grounds but were instead interspersed in ordinary Tusk units as shock troopers - maybe only one or two per squad?  Now, since they would obviously die way too easily this way, let's bump up their health to make them the sort of pseudo-minibosses that Nox or Manic units can be.  Something like this would be more threatening, which takes away the boredom people have been experiencing from the camp who believes Ghouls are just overly easy cannon fodder.  However, it would also not completely overload you in crowd control procs despite the added threat.  And, additionally, you'd have to worry about ordinary Grineer units capitalizing on the knockdowns!  This would encourage target prioritization, engaging the enemy, and it would prevent cheese tactics from trivializing Ghoul encounters (do I want to perma-stealth on Ivara?  I now have to be cognizant of all the threats I described earlier that I experience in ordinary Plains).  In this situation, I would even happily allow the Cold/Toxin combined death proc I argued against in my OP because it wouldn't end up gassing an entire combat area when left behind by these occasional units.  Perhaps the problem with Ghoul implementation has very little to do with their individual design so much as it has to do with their deployment design.

[Comrade_Aleksandr]

I have a complaint, in my opinion the whole ghoul thing is a big mistake. I can't enjoy 1 second of exploring the plains, or hunting the Eidolon Terelyst or go fishing without Vay Hek appearing on the mini screen and yelling at me as if he's over-compensating for something... or lack of something and having Ghouls popping out of the ground and chasing me to the ends of the earth. 

[(PSN)WeeMalk5]

The bounties seemed easy enough, but with things moving so fast and all sorts of explosions going on, I feel its a shame that I couldn't really see what was going on or even have time to see the ghouls design up close.

Kinda reminded me of the design council gift from the lous nullifier version, couldn't actually see what was going on for the sea of bubbles. 

[(PSN)CarribeanWolf]

In terms of the scans, I always scan before trying to kill them. They can spawn outside the bounties, but I take my time finding them. I recommend using limbo's banish followed by stasis to keep them in place, then void rift and scan them while they are immobilized. It has worked for me so far, but I hope they come back soon if I don't manage to complete their codex entries.

[(XBOX)eibonMadness]

I honestly dont even mind the 2 procs, but agree they dont make sense. I dont like that the journal fragments are so rare and the weapon blueprints so common. 

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

WoT hurts my eyes. Ghould event boring.