Maiming Strike Feedback

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

Just now, Nakrast said:

1)You rarely use True Steel if you use Blood Rush.
2)Maiming Strike DOES NOT, replace Organ Shatter in any way, cause if you don't use Organ Shatter in a Maiming Strike build, then you lose a lot of damage.
3)Condition Overload too? Sure, let's make status weapons useless again. 
I would like to see something like Condition Overload for main and side weapons.

Read my linked article. IT DOES perform better than Organ Shatter (even on an Atterax), and you get more damage by replacing Organ Shatter with Maiming and utilizing the free spot to place an elemental mod, or if the base IPS is skewed one way, an IPS %Damage mod.

[mawdeeps]

8 minutes ago, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

Read my linked article. IT DOES perform better than Organ Shatter (even on an Atterax), and you get more damage by replacing Organ Shatter with Maiming and utilizing the free spot to place an elemental mod, or if the base IPS is skewed one way, an IPS %Damage mod.

you use maiming and organ shatter together.

[(PSN)psycofang]

I don't get why people are so nuts about argon and maim? Yay it turns garbage crit weapons into crits, horray. 

 

Now about that condition overload/bloodrush nonsense with primed reach/fury wrecking everything in sight?  No spinning required, just mash E and get free crits into the reds with world wiping damage boosts, dont forget to buff yourself to nonsensical levels!

Oh did lesion just activate? Oh here comes the blender!

Like really maiming , like a lot of things, should be nerfed but lets not just focus on the flavor of the month mod.

Edited December 31, 2017 by (PS4)psycofang

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

37 minutes ago, mawdeeps said:

you use maiming and organ shatter together.

You can, but given the mod limit, utilizing Organ shatter yields less Raw Damage than say, Buzz Kill, if the weapon has specialized damage, and you have to choose between the two.

If you're referring to Damage via Resistance bypassing procs like slash, then yes, Organ shatter will. Due to Slash %Damage mods not being considered in the calculation of Bleed Procs, but Crit multipliers being considered. In terms of Raw Damage though, it's less effective on specialized IPS weapons.

Organ shatter increases the damage of your Crits by 90% (90% increase in damage)

On a weapon like the Atterax (3.0x), a Crit deals:

• 121.5 Slash
• 6.75 Impact
• 6.75 Puncture
• (134.75 Total)

The 90% damage increase from Organ shatter would yield a 90% damage increase on crit.

• 230.85 Slash
• 12.825 Impact
• 12.825 Puncture
• (256.5 Total)

Organ Shatter offering 90% Increased Damage

A mod like Buzz Kill will offer 120% increase to Slash damage, 

• 267.3 Slash
• 6.75 Impact
• 6.75 Puncture
• (280.8 Total)

Buzz Kill offering 108% Increased Damage

In terms of Raw Damage, Buzz Kill is better. In terms of Bypass Damage, Organ Shatter is better, as the Buzz Kill Scenario would only calculate from 121.5 Slash Damage for the Slash Proc, and Organ Shatter would calculate from the 230.85 Slash Damage.

Side-note: Really hope they make IPS %Damage mods add from Total Base Damage like all the other elemental mods, would really make things more consistent. (Of course, taking all +120% IPS mods and changing them to the Dual Stat variant (+60%/+60% Status)).

Edited December 31, 2017 by A-Midnight-Shanking

[Entharias]

13 minutes ago, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

You can, but given the mod limit, utilizing Organ shatter yields less Raw Damage than say, Buzz Kill, if the weapon has specialized damage, and you have to choose between the two.

If you're referring to Damage via Resistance bypassing procs like slash, then yes, Organ shatter will. Due to Slash %Damage mods not being considered in the calculation of Bleed Procs, but Crit multipliers being considered. In terms of Raw Damage though, it's less effective on specialized IPS weapons.

Organ shatter increases the damage of your Crits by 90% (90% increase in damage)

On a weapon like the Atterax (3.0x), a Crit deals:

• 121.5 Slash
• 6.75 Impact
• 6.75 Puncture
• (134.75 Total)

The 90% damage increase from Organ shatter would yield a 90% damage increase on crit.

• 230.85 Slash
• 12.825 Impact
• 12.825 Puncture
• (256.5 Total)

Organ Shatter offering 90% Increased Damage

A mod like Buzz Kill will offer 120% increase to Slash damage, 

• 267.3 Slash
• 6.75 Impact
• 6.75 Puncture
• (280.8 Total)

Buzz Kill offering 108% Increased Damage

In terms of Raw Damage, Buzz Kill is better. In terms of Bypass Damage, Organ Shatter is better, as the Buzz Kill Scenario would only calculate from 121.5 Slash Damage for the Slash Proc, and Organ Shatter would calculate from the 230.85 Slash Damage.

Side-note: Really hope they make IPS %Damage mods add from Total Base Damage like all the other elemental mods, would really make things more consistent. (Of course, taking all +120% IPS mods and changing them to the Dual Stat variant (+60%/+60% Status)).

Not to sound rude, but please, get your facts right, and stop with uncompleted math.
Organ Shatter is a must, there is the simple reason: Crit Multiplier = Crit Level × (Crit Multiplier − 1) + 1.
(http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Hit)

Edited December 31, 2017 by Nakrast

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

14 minutes ago, Nakrast said:

Not to sound rude, but please, get your facts right, and stop with uncompleted math.
Organ Shatter is a must, there is the simple reason: Crit Multiplier = Crit Level × (Crit Multiplier − 1) + 1.
(http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Critical_Hit)

Here's the link again

That Calculation is used in the above article, and is actually posted there for your convenience under the first calculation.

Here's the second calculation, comparing Maiming and TrueSteel/OrganShatter on slide attacks, since you apparently can't be bothered to look at it:

Base Stats

• Crit Chance: 25%
• Crit Chance (True Steel): 40%
• Crit Multiplier (Organ): 5.7x
• Crit Multiplier (Maim): 3.0x
• Slide attack: 90

1.0x

• Slide Crit Chance (True Steel): 40%
• Slide Crit Chance (Maim): 115%
• Slide attack (Organ/True): 90 (40% chance of 513)
• Slide Attack (Maim)(Critical): 270 (15% chance of 450)

It seems pretty balanced at this point. If a player just wanted basic crits for a low-crit based weapon to proc effects like Berserker, they could do so. 

2.0x

• Slide Crit Chance (True Steel): 132.5%
• Slide Crit Chance (Maim): 494.5%
• Slide Attack (Organ/True)(Critical): 513 (32.5% chance of 936)
• Slide Attack (Maim)(Red Crit + 2): 810 (94.5% chance of 990)

At this point, Maiming Strike Slides compared to Organ Shatter Slides consistently deal more damage, and Organ Shatter Slides only have a 32.5% chance of reaching a value that's above the base for Maiming Strike slide, and Maiming Strike has a 94.5% chance of beating that damage. Even though the slide attacks for Organ shatter have the same crit value as normal attacks, with normal attacks dealing 256.5 (32.5% chance of 513), you need to hit at most 4 times (min twice if you're lucky) to equal the damage of one slide attack.

3.0x

• Slide Crit Chance (True Steel): 198%
• Slide Crit Chance (Maim): 684.25%
• Slide Attack (Organ/True)(Critical): 513 (48.75% chance of 936)
• Slide Attack (Maim)(Red Crit + 4): 1,170 (84.25% chance of 1,350)

Now you have Maiming Strike Outperforming True Steel and Organ Shatter slide attacks consistently! Using Organ Shatter and True Steel actually decreases your damage output in a Maiming Strike build, because Maiming Strike functions better than it through sheer volume of crit chance! If you have Maiming Strike and Blood Rush, you never need to use Organ shatter or True Steel!

 

Edited December 31, 2017 by A-Midnight-Shanking
Clarified the Slide attacks either using True/Organ or Maiming

[Entharias]

1 hour ago, Nakrast said:

2)Maiming Strike DOES NOT, replace Organ Shatter in any way, cause if you don't use Organ Shatter in a Maiming Strike build, then you lose a lot of damage.

10 minutes ago, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

since you apparently can't be bothered to look at it

Yyou seem to have missed my ''Organ Shatter in a Maiming Strike build'' point. We were discussing about 2 different things all this time.
Ok, Maiming Strike outperforms True Steel and Organ Shatter, BUT, Maiming Strike forces you to use slide attacks, and slide attacks only, while the 2 base crit mods can be used in any instance, fair trade if you ask me.
But if you still belive that Maiming Strike is still broken, i have nothing else to say to you.

 

Edited December 31, 2017 by Nakrast

[tomnmillie]

On 12/26/2017 at 9:48 PM, Oreades said:

That last bit there is exactly why DE needs to be very careful and why I don't think they have changed it over the years, instead opting to keep it in circulation and quasi stable by bringing the event back. 

Because it isn't the people who hoarded it that they need to be concerned about making "salty" it's all the people who spent a metric boatload of plat to get it. The last thing you want to do as a F2P game is tick off the people who have demonstrated they are willing to give you money. 

Way too late for that

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

56 minutes ago, Nakrast said:

Yyou seem to have missed my ''Organ Shatter in a Maiming Strike build'' point. We were discussing about 2 different things all this time.
Ok, Maiming Strike outperforms True Steel and Organ Shatter, BUT, Maiming Strike forces you to use slide attacks, and slide attacks only, while the 2 base crit mods can be used in any instance, fair trade if you ask me.
But if you still belive that Maiming Strike is still broken, i have nothing else to say to you.

?

Right, Maiming Strike outperforms two mods which you consider 'necessary' for Crit builds. Negating your 2nd argument, as it can be used to replace Organ Shatter (Under the assumption that the build didn't use Maiming Strike to begin with), you just need to relegate yourself to spin2win. Now here's why I think Maiming Strike is broken:

Spoiler

Base Stats

• Crit Chance: 25%
• Crit Multiplier: 3.0x 
• Normal Attack: 45
• Slide attack: 90

(Crit Multiplier = Crit Level × (Crit Multiplier − 1) + 1)

(Slide attack deals more damage but is slower that the normal attack, so we get some balance here. Multiple normal attacks or one Slide attack depending on the situation.)

1.0x

• Normal Crit Chance: 25%
• Slide Crit Chance: 115%
• Normal Attack (Critical): 135
• Slide Attack (Critical): 270 (15% chance of 450)

At this point I wouldn't say that Maiming strike is too bad, since it makes Slide attacks more enticing, but not overly so. It becomes a preference of whether you enjoy slide attacks or not.

2.0x

• Normal Crit Chance: 107.5%
• Slide Crit Chance: 494.5%
• Normal Attack (Critical): 135 (7.5% chance of 225)
• Slide Attack (Red Crit + 2): 810 (94.5% chance of 990)

Getting a slight bit iffy in this area. Slide attacks offer a significant amount of damage at this point, and unless the weapon you use can hit a multitude of times in the same time that a slide attack finishes, you're better off using a slide attack, especially given that most are 360 deg.

3.0x

• Normal Crit Chance: 148.75%
• Slide Crit Chance: 684.25%
• Normal Attack (Critical): 135 (48.75% chance of 225)
• Slide Attack (Red Crit + 4): 1,170 (84.25% chance of 1,350)

This is where slide attacks begin to severely outperform normal attacks even if Maiming Strike was replaced to add additional damage. And, 3.0x is generally the multiplier to shoot for when going on missions that are not trivial. At this point Slide attacks become much more beneficial to use, essentially phasing out regular attacks, regardless of stance or range. basic Long range weapons simply serve to make the damage application easier. This is why I think that it should still function in a similar manner as it does now, But not with Blood Rush.

Utilizing Maiming Strike yields a damage increase of Slide attacks over regular attacks by about 8x. Organ Shatter does indeed reduce this multiplier to near 4x-2x. 

But as you state: Maiming Strike is not Mutually exclusive with Organ Shatter

Meaning that damage increase of Slide attacks over normal attacks can be reset and ignored by implementing Organ Shatter. Slide attacks still doing about 8x the damage of a normal attack without there being a way to mod normal attacks up to par.

 

Don't get me wrong, modding slide attacks and other types of attacks to compete with normal attacks is a good thing. Maiming Strike simply buffs the damage of slide attacks too much when climbing the Combo Multiplier because of its multiplicative interaction with Blood Rush. Which is why I'm all for it applying after Blood Rush.

Here's some calculations I did in that regard (applying after blood rush) in the same thread I've previously linked.

Spoiler

Let's look at a weapon such as the atterax with Blood Rush on it, utilizing Maiming Strike, except now Maiming Strike applies after the fact.

Base Stats

• Crit Chance: 25%
• Crit Multiplier: 3.0x 
• Normal Attack: 45
• Slide attack: 90

(Crit Multiplier = Crit Level × (Crit Multiplier − 1) + 1)

(Slide attack deals more damage but is slower that the normal attack, so we get some balance here. Multiple normal attacks or one Slide attack depending on the situation.)

1.0x

• Normal Crit Chance: 25%
• Slide Crit Chance: 115%
• Normal Attack (Critical): 135
• Slide Attack (Critical): 270 (15% chance of 450)

2.0x

• Normal Crit Chance: 107.5%
• Slide Crit Chance: 197.5.5%
• Normal Attack (Critical): 135 (7.5% chance of 225)
• Slide Attack (Critical): 270 (97.5% chance of 450)

3.0x

• Normal Crit Chance: 148.75%
• Slide Crit Chance: 238.75%
• Normal Attack (Critical): 135 (48.75% chance of 225)
• Slide Attack (Orange Critical): 450 (38.75% chance of 630)

Utilizing it after the fact, on high base crit weapons, there is a slight increase in damage output of slide attacks in comparison to normal attacks, but it isn't all that significant. And using Maiming strike with low crit weapons, it still significantly increases the options given an easy access to criticals.

 

Edited December 31, 2017 by A-Midnight-Shanking

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

59 minutes ago, Nakrast said:

 

However....

Reflecting on my previous statements I realize something.

Maiming strike could simply be replaced by an elemental mod, and that 8x increase compared to normal attacks simply becomes something nearer 4x (under the assumption that no other elemental mods have been placed on it, otherwise it isn't a straight ratio).

4 attacks in one go compared to 1 spin attack does seem more manageable... Single target wise, and this game is anything but... mmmmm... gotta think more about this...

[mawdeeps]

On 31/12/2017 at 5:30 AM, A-Midnight-Shanking said:

You can, but given the mod limit, utilizing Organ shatter yields less Raw Damage than say, Buzz Kill, if the weapon has specialized damage, and you have to choose between the two.

If you're referring to Damage via Resistance bypassing procs like slash, then yes, Organ shatter will. Due to Slash %Damage mods not being considered in the calculation of Bleed Procs, but Crit multipliers being considered. In terms of Raw Damage though, it's less effective on specialized IPS weapons.

Organ shatter increases the damage of your Crits by 90% (90% increase in damage)

On a weapon like the Atterax (3.0x), a Crit deals:

• 121.5 Slash
• 6.75 Impact
• 6.75 Puncture
• (134.75 Total)

The 90% damage increase from Organ shatter would yield a 90% damage increase on crit.

• 230.85 Slash
• 12.825 Impact
• 12.825 Puncture
• (256.5 Total)

Organ Shatter offering 90% Increased Damage

A mod like Buzz Kill will offer 120% increase to Slash damage, 

• 267.3 Slash
• 6.75 Impact
• 6.75 Puncture
• (280.8 Total)

Buzz Kill offering 108% Increased Damage

In terms of Raw Damage, Buzz Kill is better. In terms of Bypass Damage, Organ Shatter is better, as the Buzz Kill Scenario would only calculate from 121.5 Slash Damage for the Slash Proc, and Organ Shatter would calculate from the 230.85 Slash Damage.

Side-note: Really hope they make IPS %Damage mods add from Total Base Damage like all the other elemental mods, would really make things more consistent. (Of course, taking all +120% IPS mods and changing them to the Dual Stat variant (+60%/+60% Status)).

and with armoured targets its the bypass damage that matters if your 1 shotting things with the initial slide your likely not going to build the combo needed for the rest of your calculations to matter and buzzkill is only better when the damage is heavily weighted in 1 direction.

 

[AJ5511]

On ‎12‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 5:51 PM, toafarmer said:

Oh boy, it seems maiming strike is really the new source of whining on forums. "I don't have it, nerf it". 

XD nice one, I don't have it but I hardly use melee anyways. I got my hands on argon and bladed rounds, now my opticor and soma prime are more OP than they were before.