So I found out Nerkos only drops life or energy in my games.

[Shadowoutcastoflove]

I know you are probably going to say you’re an idiot. But it’s true was on earth defense and used nerkos for a rare and I mean rare stance mod and get nothing. Though on the Xbox I get that stance mod like wildfire it just burning a hole in my map. Two in one game. One in another. On PC I’m having a harder time too. I’ve been on PC for five years now not to mention I get a new one that has no lag. But why I try to get a mod and end with nothing in my hands it’s okay I like to work for them but drop rate seems to only be 0.00001 for the mods I want. Can’t get polearms nor ninkana or anything else on Xbox though I have gold mods up to my throne and stalkers will not die for me so I can get that last one for ninkana it upsets me but that’s okay I’ll work for trying to kill stalker too. Any idea on who such a big difference. Oh I also just started on Xbox about a month ago. 

[(XBOX)Shadowdeathin]

So you are aware this is my other profile cause my Xbox is a pile of crap... 

[Kletse]

which mods are you talking about?

[Snib]

You can check drop chances here: https://n8k6e2y6.ssl.hwcdn.net/repos/hnfvc0o3jnfvc873njb03enrf56.html

Remember those are chances, not guarantees.

[Shadowoutcastoflove]

Tranquil cleave!!! It can’t be dropped by rotations. It’s only gotten by the buthcher. They drop it and it’s annoying. I get dc when I picked it up on my Xbox on but on pc it’s harder to get. 

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

Desecrate doesn't improve your chance at getting anything. It merely rerolls one more time before the body despawns.

The only mechanical change is that it improves the chances of health orbs over energy orbs. But I believe there isn't a way to even increase that chance it's a passive buff. Hence the true desecrate builds requires despoil.

[Axterix13]

On 1/2/2018 at 8:49 PM, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

Desecrate doesn't improve your chance at getting anything. It merely rerolls one more time before the body despawns.

Incorrect.  Desecrate does improve your chance of getting things, because it gives a chance at an additional roll (not a re-roll; it is a second one in addition to the default one).  So with a Nekros, you're about 54% more likely to get the loot drop you want.  Of course, when the base chance is crappy, well, your odds of seeing it will still be crappy even with the chance at the second roll.  Over time though, it definitely makes a difference.

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

1 hour ago, Axterix13 said:

Incorrect.  Desecrate does improve your chance of getting things, because it gives a chance at an additional roll (not a re-roll; it is a second one in addition to the default one).  So with a Nekros, you're about 54% more likely to get the loot drop you want.  Of course, when the base chance is crappy, well, your odds of seeing it will still be crappy even with the chance at the second roll.  Over time though, it definitely makes a difference.

That's not really how it works. Each roll is independent therefore each chance is unique. It's like the lottery, buying 2 tickets doesn't improve you chances significantly. You would have to buy millions at once to even hit the statistical thresholds to guarantee getting everything.

Likewise even with desecrate you would have to have hundreds, if not thousands of bodies desecrating at once to reach any significant chance of getting a rare item. Not to say it can't be done, but that's not typically how many bodies a typical nekros playing a typical mission would receive. Hence why just bringing a nekros doesn't guarantee you getting anything. The frequents drops you see in desecrate are in fact the common drops that have a high chance to show up so you see more of them, but rare items are still rare, getting one more reroll on a 3% drop chance doesn't really improve it to 6%.

This lies at the core of RNG systems and is carefully managed and uses sophisticated math to ensure that 3% equates to a significant amount of rolls before you hit that chance. This is how casinos and lotteries and most forms of gambling works, which also lies at the heart of the rng loot table.

 

[Snib]

2 hours ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

That's not really how it works. Each roll is independent therefore each chance is unique. It's like the lottery, buying 2 tickets doesn't improve you chances significantly. You would have to buy millions at once to even hit the statistical thresholds to guarantee getting everything.

Nobody said anything about a guarantee (except myself up there saying they don't exist). There is no such thing as a statistical threshold that would guarantee anything. Statistics work with probabilities, not guarantees.

But even looking past your semantics and following your own argument, then desecrate would help you reach that "threshold" (it really isn't a thing) twice as fast, which sounds pretty significant to me.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Snib

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

Take a high slash weapon. A body cut in half is counted as two bodies. So... U get the initial drop chance then when the enemy dies and is cut into two pieces, u get 2 more drop chances. Thats three chances.

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

10 hours ago, Snib said:

Nobody said anything about a guarantee (except myself up there saying they don't exist). There is no such thing as a statistical threshold that would guarantee anything. Statistics work with probabilities, not guarantees.

But even looking past your semantics and following your own argument, then desecrate would help you reach that "threshold" (it really isn't a thing) twice as fast, which sounds pretty significant to me.

Dude you need to read up on how RNG systems work. Things like Lotteries and slot wheels and dice rolls work on mathematically principles in which each throw is an unique and individual chance to get a result, whatever it is your looking for. The Loot RNG in this game is based on those systems. Most of these systems were designed to prevent any simple fudging or adjusting of the chances, they are design to ensure an equal and consistent chance for every INDIVIDUAL drop instance.

It's as simple as the lottery. If you bough 1 ticket you have a set odd of winning. You buy 10 tickets those chances don't significantly increase, because the random pattern prevents any small group of chances from equating to an increase likelihood to win.  You would have to buy as many tickets as there are combinations of numbers in the lottery to start significantly increasing your chance at guaranteeing a win. This happens every once and a while in real lotteries, and this is what you are talking about:

http://newsfeed.time.com/2012/08/07/how-mit-students-scammed-the-massachusetts-lottery-for-8-million/

If you pay attention you realize they had to have an inordinate amount of tickets to hit the statistical chances needed to break the lottery. The loot RNG works in this game along a similar system. Meaning, for you to use Nekros to game drop chances, you would need 4 nekros's desecrating hundred of not thousands of bodies at a time to even affect the drop rate in any significant or meaningful way. And Warframe is even more unfair than a traditional lottery. Because instead of picking which numbers you want each drop chance is random, meaning you have just as much likelyhood from repeating a result than getting a new one. So it would be like trying to beat the lottery by only buying random tickets and not being able to pick the numbers. The odds then go even higher as you are going to get a significant amount of duplicates, which screws the odds against you even more.  That's why desecrate seems to break the drop rate, but it's an illusion, those are merely duplicate of common and uncommon drops which already have a high likelihood of dropping. The rare items still only come out rare because those odds are so high that merely getting a few dozen extra rolls doesn't significantly increase their drop chance.

Edited January 5, 2018 by (PS4)HurricaneHugo76

[Snib]

2 hours ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

The rare items still only come out rare because those odds are so high that merely getting a few dozen extra rolls doesn't significantly increase their drop chance.

Additional rolls don't increase drop chances, the drop chances are static. The word you were looking for is probability. You are really weird, you know? You start out with a correct statement and then drift off into irrelevant nonsense, as if you dozed off in the middle of the lecture and dreamed up the rest. 

Edited January 5, 2018 by Snib

[Axterix13]

On 1/4/2018 at 10:35 PM, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

That's not really how it works. Each roll is independent therefore each chance is unique. It's like the lottery, buying 2 tickets doesn't improve you chances significantly. You would have to buy millions at once to even hit the statistical thresholds to guarantee getting everything.

I didn't say it improved your chances significantly.  Heck, I even said the exact opposite, that if the base chance is low, with additional rolls, the odds are still low.  It does, however, as you yourself just said, improve them, thanks to potentially offering an additional roll on the item.

So yeah, don't try to argue against what I said by saying the same thing yourself.

[Spectre-8]

Blame the RNG not the warframe .

[taiiat]

that's objectively untrue - l00t increasing Abilities give you extra opportunities for stuff. that doesn't mean you will get that stuff, you're just much more likely to.

On 1/5/2018 at 1:35 AM, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

That's not really how it works. Each roll is independent therefore each chance is unique.
It's like the lottery, buying 2 tickets doesn't improve you chances significantly. You would have to buy millions at once to even hit the statistical thresholds to guarantee getting everything.

Not to say it can't be done, but that's not typically how many bodies a typical nekros playing a typical mission would receive.

 

uses sophisticated math to ensure that 3% equates to a significant amount of rolls before you hit that chance.

actually, it is. your probability of winning the lottery or getting a Mod massively increases if you buy a second ticket or if you get twice the drops from an Enemy.
duh obviously the Chance per Randomization isn't going up, but if you roll the dice two,three,twenty times you're much more likely to win than if you roll just once...

have you uh... used Desecrate? for most Drops, Desecrate quadruples the amount of Drops you get. some Enemies don't have gibs so you only get double on those, but if an Enemy has gibs you get a lot of extra Chances.

 

so you mean.... 33.3R deaths per Mod Drop?
there's literally no complex, advanced math here.

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

21 hours ago, taiiat said:

that's objectively untrue - l00t increasing Abilities give you extra opportunities for stuff. that doesn't mean you will get that stuff, you're just much more likely to.

actually, it is. your probability of winning the lottery or getting a Mod massively increases if you buy a second ticket or if you get twice the drops from an Enemy.
duh obviously the Chance per Randomization isn't going up, but if you roll the dice two,three,twenty times you're much more likely to win than if you roll just once...

have you uh... used Desecrate? for most Drops, Desecrate quadruples the amount of Drops you get. some Enemies don't have gibs so you only get double on those, but if an Enemy has gibs you get a lot of extra Chances.

 

so you mean.... 33.3R deaths per Mod Drop?
there's literally no complex, advanced math here.

OMG no wonder no one complains about this. Let me explain this to you with a simple observation:

If what you said was true then Nekros would never exist in the game nor would desecrate even exist as a power. Nekros would be the only frame people would use to farm anything. There would be guides trying to maximize this supposed "advantage" to desecrate if that was the case. Tell me, when have you ever seen a 4 man desecrate farming setup? Why is it then that no wiki article ever puts out special drop chance % on items for Nekros, or even a Nekros/Hydroid combo as both frames share the same increase drop %? In fact here is a Wiki where they pretty much confirmed what I said, and you'd imagine someone would have figured out the "trick" after 2 years of using nekros:

https://www.tennoclocknews.com/farming/

Not only that, I will even make the salacious claim that DE put in special hidden logic ENSURING that desecrate can never be exploited in this manner. Or else every rare mod or item in the game would be flooded in trade chat.

First of all, once again, you fail to understand drops fall into common, uncommon, and rare categories. Desecrate has an increase is COMMON and a slight increase in UNCOMMON drops, but non in rare. Not only are the drop rates calculated to account for Desecrate and Tentacle Swarm, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if there is logic making sure rare drops aren't as affected.

These powers are meant to increase your common and uncommon drops for the sake of farming building mats, it's not design for you to game rare drops.  You would literally have to desecrate hundreds or thousands of bodies to get any noticeable effect from desecrate on RARE DROP ITEMS.

How can i be sure of this?  Because I have used Nekros(despoil) both on PC and console for over 2 years, and I have just as much chance of getting any rare item as anyone else using not using it. Nor has any min maxer power gamer has ever stated to me that using Nekros helped them find anything rare.

I am not trying to trick you guys, I am speaking from a mathematical certainty, the same mathematical certainty that DE uses to calculate their RNG system. And no one has ever shown a real world example disproving what I say. You are all deluding yourself if you think getting one extra roll on a body drop before it despawns increases your rare drop chance.

Edited January 11, 2018 by (PS4)HurricaneHugo76

[OoKeNnEtHoO]

I think the logic is if there are 100 pieces of loot droppable and loot X has 1% chance of dropping,

The first drop is 1% chance out of 100 pieces possible.

The second drop is still 1% chance out of 100 pieces.

When we look at both, we can't say we have 2% chance out of 200 pieces because 2/200 is still 1%.

[Frosthaven83]

Lots of people agreeing but getting tied up in word semantics on drops again.

Drop chances are static. These do not change.
Probability can be influenced (how quickly can you kill mobs? How many mobs can you get to spawn? How many times can you force them to drop loot? etc).

Desecrate increases the probability that you will get a rare mod. The longer you use desecrate, the more probable/likely you are to receive the mod over non-desecrators. It does not alter drop chance.

Now to cover some interesting things that were brought up:

"Tell me, when have you ever seen a 4 man desecrate farming setup? "
Desecrate farming is incredibly common. Any time slash and farming are in the same sentence, desecrate is always behind. Now if you mean specifically 4 nekros? Only need one, but I doubt that's what you meant.

" You are all deluding yourself if you think getting one extra roll on a body drop before it despawns increases your rare drop chance."
I used desecrate to farm all of the kubrow mods in ~30 minutes (including bite!).
1. Find the weakest level 0 weapon you can, head to earth, locate a kubrow den.
2. Turn on desecrate.
3. Plink the den with as little damage as you can.
4. kill the kubrow and watch desecrate give you extra drops
5. recast desecrate again since kubrows can be double desecrated (3 drops rolled per kubrow!)
6. laugh as you farm all the mods available (and if you are super lucky, bite as well).

Coincidentally, Nekros was used quite a lot during the plaguestar event for extra rare drops. There are also a few other more....lucrative uses. You are right, however that it isn't the chance that was increased in that session. Only the probability - sweet, sweet probability!

No there isn't some massive voodoo code going on behind the scenes. Every desecrated corpse/body part is another pull of the slot machine handle. It is a fair expectation that someone farming a mod while desecrating will find it before someone who isn't based on probability. The longer the farming sessions, the more the probability is increased. Anecdotes will show outcomes in both directions, but as the sample size grows you'd expect to see it trending ahead over time.

Have a nice day.


@Shadowoutcastoflove The only drop issue im aware of atm is if there is lag between the host and the nekros player. If extreme enough, nothing will drop - but if you are just getting health and energy that sounds like really bad RNG or some crazy bug that I haven't heard of.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Frosthaven83

[taiiat]

1 hour ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

Nekros would be the only frame people would use to farm anything. There would be guides trying to maximize this supposed "advantage" to desecrate if that was the case. Tell me, when have you ever seen a 4 man desecrate farming setup?

Why is it then that no wiki article ever puts out special drop chance % on items for Nekros, or even a Nekros/Hydroid combo as both frames share the same increase drop %?
 

DE put in special hidden logic ENSURING that desecrate can never increase l00t

First of all, once again, you fail to understand drops fall into common, uncommon, and rare categories. Desecrate has an increase is COMMON and a slight increase in UNCOMMON drops, but non in rare.

and I have just as much chance of getting any rare item as anyone else using not using it.

I am speaking from a mathematical certainty.

uh. people use Nekros to increase the amount of stuff they get all the time.
all organized Farming groups use both Hydroid and Nekros (atleast Nekros since he has the biggest impact, Hydroid if stationary play is an option). because they get a lot more of everything....

Desecrate, Pilfering Swarm, Ore Gaze, and Prowl don't share the same l00t Multiplication... they're separate Abilities and thus can roll Enemies multiple times separately. you can use them all on the same Enemy.

 

are you serious? you're so sure that there is some special hidden magic that makes sure that l00t Abilities do not increase l00t?
are you listening to the words you're saying?

acquisition of all things is increased by the same amount with l00t Abilities. if you can't understand this, why are you even trying to talk about math? you apparently don't understand it. loot Abilities don't selectively do anything, or change anything. you get more of everything.

no... you have a significantly higher probability of getting everything if you increase the number of times Enemies attempt to drop things. very simple concept....

you're not speaking from anything mathematical, nor certain.
basic arithmetic and probability is like, flying so far over your head it's in orbit. i don't understand what you don't understand, this is a very simple concept in probability that humans understand from the moment they are born.

 

 

but at this point i'm pretty sure you're a troll since that's the only reasonable explanation so you have the right to be wrong..... but not to spread it around to other people.

Edited January 11, 2018 by taiiat

[Snib]

5 hours ago, Frosthaven83 said:

Lots of people agreeing but getting tied up in word semantics on drops again.

Actually there's just a single guy disagreeing and at this point I'm fairly certain he's just trolling.

[ScribbleClash]

7 hours ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

OMG no wonder no one complains about this. Let me explain this to you with a simple observation:

If what you said was true then Nekros would never exist in the game nor would desecrate even exist as a power. Nekros would be the only frame people would use to farm anything. There would be guides trying to maximize this supposed "advantage" to desecrate if that was the case. Tell me, when have you ever seen a 4 man desecrate farming setup? Why is it then that no wiki article ever puts out special drop chance % on items for Nekros, or even a Nekros/Hydroid combo as both frames share the same increase drop %? In fact here is a Wiki where they pretty much confirmed what I said, and you'd imagine someone would have figured out the "trick" after 2 years of using nekros:

https://www.tennoclocknews.com/farming/

Not only that, I will even make the salacious claim that DE put in special hidden logic ENSURING that desecrate can never be exploited in this manner. Or else every rare mod or item in the game would be flooded in trade chat.

First of all, once again, you fail to understand drops fall into common, uncommon, and rare categories. Desecrate has an increase is COMMON and a slight increase in UNCOMMON drops, but non in rare. Not only are the drop rates calculated to account for Desecrate and Tentacle Swarm, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if there is logic making sure rare drops aren't as affected.

These powers are meant to increase your common and uncommon drops for the sake of farming building mats, it's not design for you to game rare drops.  You would literally have to desecrate hundreds or thousands of bodies to get any noticeable effect from desecrate on RARE DROP ITEMS.

How can i be sure of this?  Because I have used Nekros(despoil) both on PC and console for over 2 years, and I have just as much chance of getting any rare item as anyone else using not using it. Nor has any min maxer power gamer has ever stated to me that using Nekros helped them find anything rare.

I am not trying to trick you guys, I am speaking from a mathematical certainty, the same mathematical certainty that DE uses to calculate their RNG system. And no one has ever shown a real world example disproving what I say. You are all deluding yourself if you think getting one extra roll on a body drop before it despawns increases your rare drop chance.

Are you trying to tell me Pilfering Swarm and Nekros was not utilized to farm mutagen samples faster? Yes the chance for those to drop is a higher one (which is a way to prove that additional rolls speed up your gain), but what you say makes it sound like you will still need the same average of time spent with or without a Nekros. So yes, if you want to farm effectively, you bring Nekros. (Example: I got a rare from plains commander through desecrate)

You're going on, stating that they may have tinkered with desecrates chance of producing rares. You base that on what exactly? Your gut? Your general experience with >other< games? Without a reliable source this is a pointless claim. So we must assume that the chance of a successfully desecrated corpse is exactly the same as for your first chance.

While it is correct, that your chance does not change, the ammount you're taking the chance is quantified. Yes both times I have 1% chance. But, and here is the important part, an extra ammount of time for the second roll isn't required.

The second roll is independent from the first one. This goes both ways. If you roll nothing on your first roll, it does not mean your second one will be nothing as well.

 

In any case, this thread does not invite to a meaningful discussion to begin with and its title is very misleading. For me this equals </thread>

[(PSN)HurricaneHugo76]

LOL, you are all just basically falling for the typical Gamblers Fallacy:

This is who every random chance system works, DE intentionally manipulates the system to ensure that while it appears you get more drops, the drops you are getting are not the ones that count.  This is how most Casino's work, Slow machines have carefully adjusted odds so while it appears you are constantly winning little amounts all the time overall you lost more than you ever gained, and other games of chance have even worse odds the more complex the chance mechanics are.

Most importantly most of you aren't even accounting for the fact that the majority of the rare and legendary items do not drop from mobs; they are either mission rewards or Boss/locker drops. Desecrate has no impact on those drop rates(like I said you really think an extra roll on a boss drop has THAT much of an impact?). That is straight up one time chance, no matter how many you kill or what you bring.

 

Seriously, Nekros and Hydroid were designed for mat farming, that's all they are good for, and that's all they have ever been used for. I want polymer bundles? Go endless with Nekros. I want an Argon Crystal? Go with Nekros on the void. Want continuity?  You will have to kill a Sargus Ruk a ridiculous amount of times, end of story, with or without Nekros.

Nekros has been around long enough and desecrate has been around long enough that if this was a real thing there would be whole guides devoted to how to exploit this. You guy's aren't even aware that technically desecrate got a NERF with the change to constant on, as now if the body rolls nothing as a drop it immediately vanishes whereas when it was spammable you had as many times as you could use it before the despawn.

Show me the math guys, someone point to me how Nekros or even a Nekros/Hydroid combo would increase SIGNIFICANTLY your chances of acquiring rare drops. I can't find it anywhere on the web, and most places flat out say thes powers are geared toward common and uncommon drops. Someone show me real mechanics.

[Frosthaven83]

25 minutes ago, (PS4)HurricaneHugo76 said:

Show me the math guys, someone point to me how Nekros or even a Nekros/Hydroid combo would increase SIGNIFICANTLY your chances of acquiring rare drops. I can't find it anywhere on the web, and most places flat out say thes powers are geared toward common and uncommon drops. Someone show me real mechanics.

Those would be correct statements, as mods like condition overload are still only 0.02% - some even worse. This does not mean you cannot rare farm, or that desecrate doesn't effect rares.

All it means is that to get the probability up to an incredibly noticeable amount would take more time using it versus those not using it. If you only plan on farming a super rare mod for 30 minutes, for instance, your probability gains are fairly low compared to if you were to dedicate weeks or months towards farming (though they still exist).

The variable you are missing is the number of events you can create over time when trying to wrap your head around probability gains against the more exclusively rare drops. Events in this case being the roll itself.

Casinos use this because each time you roll the dice you are paying them money, and statistically by the time you win the jackpot the number of people putting money into rolls will lead to more profit for the house than the payout (the house always wins!).

To your point, and in the case of ultra rare mods, it is statistically more efficient to trade your way to buying them from other players by playing against moderately profitable mods with a higher probability of being dropped. That doesn't change the mathematics listed here, though.

Edited January 11, 2018 by Frosthaven83