[Alt Suggestion] This Game's Balance...

[R3leaZ]

<< TL;DR >>

 

This game needs proper tiering of gear (Or everything should just be balanced). Primes should be restricted to a certain mastery rank level. The same with weapons that are straight superior over other gear.

Ex Tiers:
T1 - Basic Gear and Exclusive Weapons: MK1 Braton, Lato, Aklato, Sicarus, Long Swords etc (Rank 0 requirement)
T2 - Intermediate Gear: Braton Vandal, Braton, Lex, Lato Vandal, Strun, Kraken, etc (Rank 1 and 2 req. weapons are superior vs T1)
T3 - Advanced/Expert Gear: Boltor, Bolto, Akbolto, Hek, Despair, Kunai, Scindo, etc (Rank 3, 4 req. weapons are superior vs T2)
T4 - Straight upgrades from older weapons for example Prime Gear from the Void (Rank 5, 6, 7 req. etc)
T5 - Clan Gear, End Game Gear (Rank 6, 7+ req. Superior weapons)

Proper tiering would make other less used weapons to become more used to level up. And power-creep would be less of a problem since it is balanced by level of Mastery.

 

This is an alternate idea of mine though. My first idea was making every weapon side-grades. Making them all very good at different situations but still very balanced.
<< End TL;DR >>

Btw, If you agree with my post then please give a vote up. ^^

 

<<Original Post>>

The route of the power creeps. Srsly.

 

[braton Vandal]
People complained about Braton Vandal being a direct upgrade from Braton and so they ended up buffing the Braton to make it in line with the Braton Vandal. Overall DPS of both of them now including reload is (both mastery rank 0 required):
Braton: 146.84
Braton Vandal: 131.75

Braton Vandal now is a true sidegrade to the normal Braton. It has an already build in Polarity slot thus making it more effective vs the normal variant when no polarizations are done (Sure I would love if the Vandal got 1 or 2 more damage back. To make the DPS difference less big since 15 less DPS is still a big trade-off)

 

[...Though...]
this is not what my thread is about since people apparently don't want everything balanced and making them side-grades so my alternate suggestion will be explained here...

DE is making a mistake now. Introducing power creeps with no Mastery Rank restrictions. I would have been fine with side-grades (everything balanced), skins or properly tiering of these weapons having these weapons in different classes going from weak to strong but having Mastery Rank restriction, but the Primes are just straight upgrades from the normal variants while needing no level requirements at all thus instantly obtainable by a player who has friends spamming Void missions and also making other less effective weapons completely obsolete in the eyes of that player (Especially when it's a full F2P player).

Sure this game is PvE. So what? It's still a shooter. Balanced weapons give people a true variety of weapons to choose from. Having power creeps would end up making weapons obsolete and people would instantly go for the most efficient and overpowered weapon (This is not only restricted to shooters lol). I'm sorry but this is not how it should have been imo. Even other MMOs have proper tiering of gear and shooters often just have everything balanced all together.

 

[Tiers]
I would have been fine with the current system if Mastery Rank actually became important to get these weapons. This would end up putting weapons in different tiers. So a Mastery Rank 0 wouldn't have straight away access to mid-range, high-end or end-game weapons. Prime weapons should have been at least Mastery Rank 5, 6 or 7.

If it were like this I wouldn't really mind the powercreep route since it would be a trade-off (You work your way up to get superior weapons). But currently with no mastery rank restrictions, other weapons are obsolete since there already is a much more superior weapon without any level requirement.

Sure, Void mission rewards are very random and it can take ages to get Prime gear. But isn't that any different from other MMOs which use proper tiering? At Mastery Rank 0 or 1 you can already get a hold of this high end weapon without having done anything at all (Try going from Mastery Rank 0 to 5, I mean that kind of work, not farming for only 1 thing that is one of the more superior weapons in the game)

 

[Master]
I became a Master to support DE because I liked how things went and developed, I kept reporting bugs, giving a lot of feedback, posting suggestions, etc.. I didn't do it for the Platinum at all (Like srsly lol), still have the largest part of all my platinum intact. Sure there were some issues with armor scaling making weapons less effective the higher level enemies became but this would eventually be getting looked at.

Now though... I really start to dislike how the game is developing especially now that a lot of weapons are starting to become obsolete... No tiering at all except for a very little amount of weapons. Clan weapons are actually from a high tier so it makes sense that they are strong. You earned those weapons since you worked all your way up to that rank. Though powercreeps with no mastery rank restriction... without any tiering it just makes all other weapons which are less effective just straight out obsolete.

Look at other MMOs. Weapons are from different tiers, restricted to a certain level and higher. This is almost non-existant in this game though (with some exceptions). High-end weapons are available to rank zeros and this is a huge problem.

 

[Complete Balance/Side-Grades PvP]

I still prefered if they would just balance everything and make everything sidegrades. I'd love if this game had PvP because then this would have happened so much sooner. Current Warframes wouldn't be able to participate in PvP though because the current Warframes shouldn't be balanced to PvP. There should be PvP exclusive Warframe classes that only can be used in PvP (Light, Medium, Heavy). This way our beloved Warframes wouldn't be touched by the nerfhammer.

Edited to fix grammatical errors and spelling mistakes. Moved TL;DR to the top of the post. Updated additional stuff.

Edited August 4, 2013 by R3leaZ

[X3Evanescence]

I do not have any opinion on this at the moment. I will edit my post after a few comments are made. Currently my stand on this is one of attentive neutrality.

[Dtexas]

I agree with you completely. Especially since last I checked the point of the Mastery system was FOR THIS VERY REASON. So as you progress your mastery you unlock new and awesome weapons to try. At this point there is no point going past mastery 7 for clan weapons.

 

The mastery should also be applied to warframes. For example, I do believe that Rhino is mastery locked at Mastery 2. Since all warframes atm are being brought up to the level of "god tier" or close to it some should be mastery locked. Frames such as Nova, and Vauban should not be able to be played by a mastery rank 1 just because they have a friend that helped them farm it (Nova more specifically), or they bought the frame.

 

Not only that, but with a higher mastery rank you can see who in your party actually knows what they are doing, and who are newer players that don't know very much. Especially when it comes to things such as defense missions.

[drakwon]

you are 100% correct this game needs proper scaling.....but the reason theres very little level restrictions is because people are more likely to spend the money on a weapon they can use over a weapon they cant, therefor from a  short term business stand point the current formula is logical....from a long term business standpoint the formula is terrible.

 

I still dont get why the marketing departments for most games still dont get that ,people will pay tons of money just to look cool. Making skins for weapons and armor isnt really that hard. Making new weapons all together is. For every new weapon made, 10 skins for existing weapons could be made. I mean people take a que from Riot games....They sell nothing but skins and XP and in game currency boosts.....whats their secret? They made a good game first and foremost, people were willing to pay 10-25$ on just looking cooler.

 

Whats my advice for Warframe?  Depending on the size of your dev team, take 1-5 people and have them do nothing but make bad &amp;#&#33; skins for current weapons and warframes....Im pretty amazed at the lack of pure visual upgrades that I can do for my warframe, all we have is helmets.....why.....

[R3leaZ]

Bumping this thread for now.

[Midas]

Well this is interesting, I would like to reinstate that this is not a "game" this is currently an "open beta" therefore it is entirely okay for this "open beta" to be unbalance, think of it as a baby, weak at first and unequal to an older human's strength, but as it grows older itself, it gains knowledge and furthermore becomes "balanced" :)

[alocrius]

Well this is interesting, I would like to reinstate that this is not a "game" this is currently an "open beta" therefore it is entirely okay for this "open beta" to be unbalance, think of it as a baby, weak at first and unequal to an older human's strength, but as it grows older itself, it gains knowledge and furthermore becomes "balanced" :)

 

I think the community agrees we are effectively past being able to use open beta as an excuse for anything.  All of the game mechanics, monetization systems and leveling are in place and accounted for and business is in full mo-fonking swing.   We are into the episodic(narrative) content portion of the game now, well past beta. 

Edited August 6, 2013 by alocrius

[Davoodoo]

I stopped reading after weapon tiers. NO

Youre mistaken about how game works and this makes me doubt that you can get any good idea.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Davoodoo

[R3leaZ]

I think the community agrees we are effectively past being able to use open beta as an excuse for anything.  All of the games systems of monetization and leveling are in place and accounted for and business is in full mo-fonking swing.   We are into the episodic content portion of the game now, well past beta. 

 

Don't misunderstand. This game really is still in Beta. The amount of fixes and complete overhaul of features still shows it's in beta. (Although defining it would make this game an Alpha)

 

Though yes this is something that should have been fixed after Closed Beta was over. It's one of the very first things you take a look at because this is the base of the game, the balance of how mechanics worked. They almost completely abandoned it until the clan weapons got released and they got requirements, but then they again just forgot about it. The system should have been fully implemented already in Open Beta release but it's only implemented to such a small degree.

[neKroMancer]

Right now, weapon balance is a mess.

To be honest, all weapons should be sidegrade.

1. Sidegrade make it easier to balance in a long run. Easier to control powercreep when there is more controllable factor involved.

2. Art asset and sound effect made for each weapon aren't wasted when player jump from one tier to the next.

3. Sidegrade opens the path of diversity instead of direct buff in stat.

I think higher tier should be about 'advanced' playstyle. Personally, I think there should be starter gears, advanced gear, Clan gear, Prime weapon.

- starter gear focused on being introductory gears. MK1 Braton, Lato, Skana, Strun.

- advanced gear focused on being more specialized. Gimp one stat and increase another. The current Braton vandal is a good example, along with Boar.

- Prime gear should be a bit more buffed but not much (not more than 10%, imo) and tweak the stat to be even more specialized. Hek prime probably shoot one super powerful slug that OHK almost everything at the cost of low ammo count, low clipsize, and long reload. If they are too powerful compared to starter/advanced gear the problem will emerge where certain mission can only be reasonably done with these weapons. Making the rest of the arsenal useless.

- Clan weapon should be about elemental damage and faction-based weapons. Not about straight damage. They should add more mechanic while remaining similar in power compared to prime gear.

I think we will see something about this soon. The current weapon tier is a mess and weapon balance has been handled poorly. It's impossible to buff everything and it's not wise to swing the nerf hammer. However, the hammer is needed - occasionally.

[Trollin4ThePrimes]

I guess a bit of balance and a tier system is the easiest way to do it. Things like the Kuani and Despair should be nerfed, same with the Acrid. They are insanely good, and I would like to see lower level players not be limited so badly. Higher level players and weapons should be better simply said. But honestly I wish every weapon was good in its own way. A Prime weapon could be stronger but the Tenno weapons could have faster reload speeds and magazine sizes.

[R3leaZ]

I stopped reading after weapon tiers. NO

Youre mistaken about how game works and this makes me doubt that you can get any good idea.

 

So you want high-end, very effective weapons to be available to newbies?

 

I guess a bit of balance and a tier system is the easiest way to do it. Things like the Kuani and Despair should be nerfed, same with the Acrid. They are insanely good, and I would like to see lower level players not be limited so badly. Higher level players and weapons should be better simply said. But honestly I wish every weapon was good in its own way. A Prime weapon could be stronger but the Tenno weapons could have faster reload speeds and magazine sizes.

 

 

It's either this or tiers. I at first wanted everything balanced but people don't want that, so my alternate suggestion was weapon tiers.

Edited August 3, 2013 by R3leaZ

[whitejackale]

I do not have any opinion on this at the moment. I will edit my post after a few comments are made. Currently my stand on this is one of attentive neutrality.

[RoboDoge]

Hmm, might work if this werent free to play game. Someone who buys plat doesnt want to wait to be able to use frames or weapons. People mostly buy plat to get something faster. And your tread is suggesting that you want to lock them from the content. This would be bad for DE business model because most of the people buy plat to get something specific that they like. Lock most of the content from people and you will see drop in plat sales.

 

Bad idea is bad even if it sounds good.

[AfroGamerNinja]

So you want high-end, very effective weapons to be available to newbies?

 

Then again, you know DE screwed up HARD when the ''Getting Started'' guide in the Players helping Players section recommend having the Kunai ASAP.

Edited August 3, 2013 by AfroGamerNinja

[Xylia]

So you want high-end, very effective weapons to be available to newbies?

 

So you want the newbies to only have access to weak weapons and then quit the game because everything is balls hard?

 

Oh wait, that's what we have now anyways.

 

Here's a hint: MOST weapons other than the Braton, Lex, Strun, and Cronus take materials you have to get elsewhere. You can make Orthos as early as Venus but it requires Rank2.

 

Everything else takes at least Earth (if not Saturn/Mars/Jupiter) materials.

 

Most weapons are ALREADY gated behind higher level content (part of what I think kills the game for newbies IMO), unless you buy plat.

 

I really really don't want Warframe to be a "buy plat or don't bother trying to start as a newbie" because it is already too much like that today.

[eStecko]

In my opinion... and this is entirely subjective.

 

Weapons shoud be variants of side-grades. They shoud be equal in their own field, its viability depending on certain situations, etc. God-tiers, that we have already, is not a way to go in my opinion. You can look up the best weapons, mostly with armor ignore and just ignore everything else. Clan weapons shoud not be the absolute best, but offering unique mechanics (which they do), but dont feel overpowered to other content. Players that go for the best weapons/warframes? They will just skip everything thats not THE best. This game doesnt have scale-able weapon drops like Borderlands or MMO's that's PvE content is mostly only about gear, that then scales with enemies. Powercreep? Yes... we already have tons of useless melee weapons and new warframes actualy are released overpowered if we would compare them against the old ones... Still the game is fun, but this direction is wrong in my eyes.

Edited August 3, 2013 by eStecko

[Xylia]

In my opinion... and this is entirely subjective.

 

Weapons shoud be variants of side-grades. They shoud be equal in their own field, its viability depending on certain situations, etc. God-tiers, that we have already, is not a way to go in my opinion. You can look up the best weapons, mostly with armor ignore and just ignore everything else. Clan weapons shoud not be the absolute best, but offering unique mechanics (which they do), but dont feel overpowered to other content. Players that go for the best weapons/warframes? They will just skip everything thats not THE best. This game doesnt have scale-able weapon drops like Borderlands or MMO's that's PvE content is mostly only about gear, that then scales with enemies. Powercreep? Yes... we already have tons of useless melee weapons and new warframes actualy are released overpowered if we would compare them against the old ones... Still the game is fun, but this direction is wrong in my eyes.

 

We're never going to get side-grade weapons unless DE starts making every new gun have Armor Ignore of some form.

 

Otherwise, we'll get things like the Vasto: Fun little toys, but useless in stuff that matters.

 

Which is sad, because the gun looks, feels, and sounds awesome.... but it doesn't do squat against higher-level targets because of the lack of AI, and it is difficult to do headshots because of the huge recoil of the weapon, which makes the weapon's DPS suffer when you have to aim after each shot.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Xylia

[eStecko]

We're never going to get side-grade weapons unless DE starts making every new gun have Armor Ignore of some form.

 

Otherwise, we'll get things like the Vasto: Fun little toys, but useless in stuff that matters.

 

Which is sad, because the gun looks, feels, and sounds awesome.... but it doesn't do squat against higher-level targets because of the lack of AI, and it is difficult to do headshots because of the huge recoil of the weapon, which makes the weapon's DPS suffer when you have to aim after each shot.

 

Or just remove armor on non-grineer enemies. Remove armor ignore from weapons and remake Grineer armor, so you can destroy their armor plates in X amount of damage, creating a weak spot. In my opinion armor has no place in shooting games, with exception of boss units or if it has actual ingame mechanics.

Edited August 3, 2013 by eStecko

[Xylia]

Or just remove armor on non-grineer enemies. Remove armor ignore from weapons and remake Grineer armor, so you can destroy their armor plates in X amount of damage, creating a weak spot. In my opinion armor has no place in shooting games, with exception of boss units or if it has actual ingame mechanics.

 

 

Good luck with that, lol.

 

I'm.... not very confident that DE has any plans of making any big changes to the ridiculous armor scaling, even though it kills the usefulness of more than half of all of the weapons in Warframe.

 

Their answer was Ammo Mutation mods. If weapons run out of ammo too fast, it must be because they need MOAR AMMO.

 

They probably expect us to bee sting everything to death. Don't get me wrong, I like the Mutators, but I don't like them being their answer to too many weapons being useless because of how Armor works in the game. No, I don't want to use Furis/Vipers/Whatever to whittle a Heavy Gunner down 5-10 damage a shot and then spend the next 10 minutes scouring every ammo box in the level.

[PaperAlien]

I disagree with this tiering. This is the exact kind of mechanism that lead to ME3 MP having people using about 5 of the 60+ different weapons. Once you get the Harrier, there is no reason ever to use the Avenger again (Avenger has more reserve ammo, doesn't matter when it tickles enemies), or the Phaeston, or pretty much every conventional AR.

The starter weapons should be jack-of-all trade weapons (the Braton and Lato fit this fairly well, Mk-1 and Skana are underpowered). Later weapons should be more specialised sidegrades, instead of upgrades. That doesn't mean these weapons would be less desirable. The Ogris, despite its insane power, actually fits this role. For the most part, it destroys stuff way better than a Braton, but it suffers in close and long range, so there's still a reason to pick the Braton. Same goes for Snipetron, Gorgon and a lot of other weapons. So the sidegrade system would prevent weapons being completely phased out (that's wasted developer time for those weapons. right now half the pistols suffer this because Kunai/Despair/Acrid), but many late game weapons are still way more appealing, and there remains a reason to level up.

[fatpig84]

The answer to this again is fix armor scaling.

[.Zoa.]

That's a very good idea!!! Say that torid I just got even though im rank 4!! Yeah take that away from me! And my prime weapons which I slaved over!! Take those too I never needed them anyway!

[R3leaZ]

In my opinion... and this is entirely subjective.

 

Weapons shoud be variants of side-grades. They shoud be equal in their own field, its viability depending on certain situations, etc. God-tiers, that we have already, is not a way to go in my opinion. You can look up the best weapons, mostly with armor ignore and just ignore everything else. Clan weapons shoud not be the absolute best, but offering unique mechanics (which they do), but dont feel overpowered to other content. Players that go for the best weapons/warframes? They will just skip everything thats not THE best. This game doesnt have scale-able weapon drops like Borderlands or MMO's that's PvE content is mostly only about gear, that then scales with enemies. Powercreep? Yes... we already have tons of useless melee weapons and new warframes actualy are released overpowered if we would compare them against the old ones... Still the game is fun, but this direction is wrong in my eyes.

This is how I've wanted it in the first place. But people started complaining about it. My OP is just an alternate suggestion.

 

I prefer what you wrote a lot more but not all people have the same opinion.

 

 

That's a very good idea!!! Say that torid I just got even though im rank 4!! Yeah take that away from me! And my prime weapons which I slaved over!! Take those too I never needed them anyway!

 

Ofcourse people who already have the weapon will keep it. Same like with the Snipetron back then. New people would get the new method.

 

I still prefer just rebalancing everything though. Making weapons sidegrade like some people here suggest.

Edited August 4, 2013 by R3leaZ

[neKroMancer]

I disagree with this tiering. This is the exact kind of mechanism that lead to ME3 MP having people using about 5 of the 60+ different weapons. Once you get the Harrier, there is no reason ever to use the Avenger again (Avenger has more reserve ammo, doesn't matter when it tickles enemies), or the Phaeston, or pretty much every conventional AR.

The starter weapons should be jack-of-all trade weapons (the Braton and Lato fit this fairly well, Mk-1 and Skana are underpowered). Later weapons should be more specialised sidegrades, instead of upgrades. That doesn't mean these weapons would be less desirable. The Ogris, despite its insane power, actually fits this role. For the most part, it destroys stuff way better than a Braton, but it suffers in close and long range, so there's still a reason to pick the Braton. Same goes for Snipetron, Gorgon and a lot of other weapons. So the sidegrade system would prevent weapons being completely phased out (that's wasted developer time for those weapons. right now half the pistols suffer this because Kunai/Despair/Acrid), but many late game weapons are still way more appealing, and there remains a reason to level up.

 

I think ME3MP did a good job on tier system. While Cerberus Harrier remains a top-tier AR, it eats ammo really fast and there are many players struggle to use it. I remember a topic on BSN which newcomer who luckily got the Harrier complained about how it eats ammo like candy and he can't make it last a wave. However, comparing Harrier with Avenger sounds a bit too exaggerate. Ultra rare VS common item is supposed to be a good example?

 

Other weapon types like Shotgun and Sniper rifle are pretty good in weapon tier. Most UR are about diversity than straight damage buff (compared to rare, ofc).

 

BTW, sidegrade is the way. Less problem in long term, easier to balance, no development time wasted on obsolete lower tier weapon.