Rivens: Three Simple Proposals (and two complicated ones) To Achieve [DE]'s Stated Goals

[Aevire]

Rivens' design incentivizes get players to spend money.

Whether intentionally or not, their design maximizes money spent by players

at the expense of not making bad weapons useful again.

As it stands currently, for the vast majority of bad/undesirable weapons, rivens

do nothing to bring them anywhere close to par with 'good' weapons.

This is a problem.

I want to preface this by clarifying that the intent of this article is not to vilify [DE]. I do not condone the harassment or threatening of developers, nor do I think any of them are at fault for the current state and issues with the Riven system. The issue with Rivens is not that [DE] is profiteering them, or that they are designed specifically to get you to spend money, it is that like many other things in Warframe, it is an incredibly ambitious system that was not given the time and effort it deserved in an attempt to get it out as quickly as possible.

The Problem

The stated intent of Riven mods in Warframe, as stated by [DE] on various occasions, is to

"give players something unique to them that can speak to their wider Arsenal"

"incentivize end-game players to revisit old weapons and to change up their play style"

"add interesting buffs to comparatively underpowered weapons"

"encourage players to think outside of that meta box"

"encourage players to try the existing stats before they embark on the journey to the ‘perfect roll’'"

[encourage players to]"use their weapons in new ways that typical builds don’t encourage or allow"

credit for the above quotes goes to Mudfam

Not a single one of these save maybe the second to last is achieved in any way. The first is, technically, if you consider your +135.2% damage +122.1% multishot Ogris riven to be unique compared to someone else's +137.4% damage +121.8% multishot Ogris riven, but the fact of the matter is that any desirable riven is going to have the exact same stats.

The Current 'Good Riven' Is The Antithesis Of [DE]'s Stated Intent

As it stands, not a single stat on a Riven mod is exclusive to that Riven. The most desirable stats on Rivens are, unequivocally, damage and multishot. On crit weapons, crit chance and crit damage are also very desirable. Funnily enough, those stats are the same as those on mandatory mods (serration, split chamber, point blank, pressure point, etc.). All of these stats do nothing to change the playstyle of a weapon; maybe they make something like Argon Scope or Blunderbuss more viable, or bring a shotgun to 100% status, but that's the extent of what a good riven will change about your build.

This does not encourage any new uses of any weapons.

This does not encourage players to change up their playstyle with a given weapon.

These 'good' rivens are not anything actually unique, and they do not feel unique.

Case in point: the average price of rivens on the market. Generally speaking, the better a weapon is, the more valuable its riven is. Newer weapons' rivens are also worth more, and in general, crit-based weapons' rivens are worth more as well. (Interestingly enough, crit-based weapons have been released more often since the advent of rivens.) However, the rivens for weapons with the highest disposition, like the Tetra, are worth basically nothing, because they do not make weapons like the Tetra viable.

The thing is, the difference between a Tetra riven and a Tigris riven is that the Tetra riven is going to be three times stronger. But I don't think I need to show you any clips or calculations for you to gather that the Tigris does orders of magnitude more damage than the Tetra.

So how do we fix this?

There have been a few very, very simple, very, very well thought out suggestions on the forums.

1. Make Rivens Give Flat Buffs

Making rivens give flat buffs (+50 [viral] damage per shot, +10% base crit or status chance, etc.) similar to how the Sobek augment gives base status chance would improve the system in a multitude of ways.

Firstly, flat buffs would open up a multitude of new possibilities for weapons - crit Grinloks, 100% status Sobeks, status Brakks, the works. Assuming the buffs worked like Maiming Strike, you could concievably make things like the Aksomati, the Kesheg, or even the Dera potentially viable. Now, of course, this would require a slight rework of disposition, but on the plus side you would both a) ensure that old and niche weapons are actually useable and b) probably increase the value of rivens as a whole.

(also, instead of giving +puncture to weapons without puncture, they could give base IPS and base elementals)

What would this change accomplish?

It would certainly be unique, would allow crit/status builds for certain weapons to become viable, would be much more likely to make weapons like the Gorgon or the Tiberon usable due to the increase in base stats, and would also feel more interesting to use and experiment with than the current ones. One of the big issues with the current Riven system is that even with a +300% crit riven and point strike, if you're using a weapon like the Grinlok or the Amphis with 7.5-10% crit, you're only getting up to 55% crit, whereas on a weapon with a base 25% crit chance, a 100% crit riven and point strike bring its critical chance up to 87.5%. On the other hand, if your riven gave the Grinlok 30% base crit, that and point strike would bring it up to 100% crit. Which, admittedly, would only be a 1.5x (or 3.3x using vital sense) damage increase, but that's still much better than the ~22% damage increase you'd be getting with the old riven.

2. Bigger Dispositions

The simplest solution to the issue of Rivens would just be to make the range of disposition values much wider. Currently, a maxed out riven for the Amphis - the highest disposition melee weapon in the game - gives up to 336.3% damage and 183.8% Maiming Strike buff (or 183.8% elemental damage), assuming two stats and 1 debuff. To compare, a maxed out riven for the Galatine Prime - one of the lowest disposition weapons in the game - gives up to 112.1% melee damage and 61.3% Maiming Strike buff.  Would a 336.3% base damage increase scaling with mods make the Amphis on par with the base Galatine Prime? Probably not, and so a 336.3% increase that takes up a mod slot probably wouldn't either.

To fix this, all [DE] needs to do is make it a much wider spectrum. Say weapon dispositions went from 0.45 (Atterax, Tigris, Galatine, Soma) to 10.0 (Buzlok, Viper, Panthera, Anku). The Amphis actually isn't terrible with a +2240% damage +1225% crit chance riven, and the Viper is an absolute @(*()$ monster with a 10 dispo crit riven. Now maybe 10 is too much. Maybe it should be maxed at 5 or 8 or 7.5, but it definitely shouldn't be maxed at 1.6. This change would have the added benefit of requiring zero inventory editing on [DE]'s part.

3. Change Stat Scaling

This solution is a little less simple, a little more convoluted, but a lot less likely than the above to result in game-breakingly overpowered versions of old weapons. It would be to

a) make the damage and multishot stats scale 5-10x with disposition

(so a Soma riven's max damage stat would be ~100%but a Buzlok's would be 2500%)

b) swap the current damage range with the physical/elemental damage range

c) increase reload speed, mag cap, and ammo max by 150%

d) quadruple status duration, flight speed, and recoil

4. Interesting Stats

This would not require any inventory editing like the last two, but would require more storage space for future rivens.

a) add +base [IPS/Viral/Radiation/Corrosive/Blast/Gas] damage as a stat (magnetic excluded because it sucks and nobody wants it)

b) add -punch through (negative punch through goes backwards, so you can line up shots with any non-hitscan weapon)

c) add +[x] WHILE AIMING stats

d) add +[damage/fire rate/elemental damage] for [RANK] seconds on [reload/headshot/critical headshot]

e) add hunter munitions but for other IPS/elementals

f) add +[5-10%] clip generated per [IPS] proc

g) add hunter set bonus (x% chance to upgrade a crit)

5. No Man's Sky: Riven Mod Edition

Now when I first heard of riven mods, [DE]'s language gave me a very clear picture of what Rivens were going to be. They were going to be procedurally generated Acolyte mods. A Grinlok riven might give +510.2% heat damage for 2.217 seconds on a headshot, or give 1240.21% crit chance for 4.238 seconds on reload, or create a 4.77 meter AoE gas cloud guaranteeing a Viral/Gas/etc. proc on a critical hit. Obviously, this system would be rather complicated and somewhat difficult to program, but it would boil down to the same 3 stat rolls that the current Riven system uses, just in a different way. The first roll determines the base buff, the second determines the triggered buff, the third determines whether it's a [x number of seconds] thing or a next shot kind of deal, and the fourth is the trigger.

This system wasn't implemented, as it turned out, and it does have a number of flaws - It might be too underpowered unless the bigger disposition change is made, and like many of the above changes would severely impact the market (one of the big issues with changing Riven mods is that since they have value to the players, doing anything to mess with that value is going to result in a lot of anger from the community), but I think its flaws are significantly fewer and less important than the flaws of the current Riven system.

                         

Challenges and Solutions

One of the big issues with the Riven system at this point is that most people don't care. We as a community have grown to accept this system, and [DE] has chosen to let it sit rather than draw attention to it because they have other projects and content that they are working on. I don't think Rivens are a particularly pressing issue, all things considered, but given that right now [DE] isn't really pushing any major content updates that take any significant group effort to do (except Pablo, God bless, thank you spacedad), it's a good time to spend a little work on this system. Honestly, I wouldn't expect any of these fixes save the first and second to ever be implemented, but it would be so much more fun if we got more interesting stats like we did on melee rivens. Realistically, the best solution is probably the second, since it's the easiest, cleanest fix, would make absolutely zero people mad about losing value of their rivens, and so on.

To [DE], I realize that some of these fixes might be too hard for you to do, and it might be similarly difficult to accept that the system someone poured their heart and soul into is as ineffective as it is. However, it's better to fix the issues with your game and have a system that realizes its intent than it is to ignore player feedback, sparse as it is nowadays, and let the system mire in its flaws. To my fellow players, I hope that you will find enjoyment in any changes that they do make, or in the current system when they inevitably make no changes and leave the system on the backburner until it's forgotten (although to be honest it kind of has already), and that you will find that one riven that makes your favorite weapon good enough to bring to a sortie.

Thank you for your time reading this! If you have any suggestions, feedback, etc. with this, feel free to respond to this - the more info [DE] can get about the riven system, and the more ideas they can have to pore through, the more likely it is that changes that we want will be made.

 

Edited January 24, 2018 by Aevire
formatting

[Your_Very_Best_Friend]

There seems to be a lot of time put into this post, was it on accident that the majority of it was crossed out?

[BemoGuinness]

Why even make a post when it's a mess to read?

[K4RN4]

25 minutes ago, Aevire said:

Making rivens give flat buffs (+50 [viral] damage per shot, +10% base crit or status chance, etc.) similar to how the Sobek augment gives base status chance would improve the system in a multitude of ways.

It would be really hard to balnce damage per shot properly, as it would be a huge buff to high firerate weapons and insignificant for slow weapons. 

Flat status and crit stats would be great though as they can severly increase the build variety.

30 minutes ago, Aevire said:

2. Bigger Dispositions

I think dispositions are OK as they are right now. Your example is not really something the riven system is aiming to do. It is in place to bring weapons like a rivened amphis in par with galatine primes without a riven and that should be possible although I haven't done any calculations regarding this specific example. Rivens for meta weapons only exist because some people would feel unfairly treated if their favorite weapon couldn't have a riven.

 

40 minutes ago, Aevire said:

4. Interesting Stats

I would love to see some oft these stats added, but that would make the market Situation worse, as "perfect" rolls would become harder to geht and therefor even more expensive.

[Aevire]

25 minutes ago, BemoGuinness said:

Why even make a post when it's a mess to read?

I tried to put s in brackets and found out the hard way that that breaks the forum's formatting. Had to manually retype the post.

[Raspberry]

I really like the flat bonus idea, and it's been something I've been trying to advocate for quite some time. Also, I think the IPS damage bonus scaling off of base TOTAL damage and not base IPS damage would be really nice. i.e. Fanged Fusillade currently cannot compete in any way against Infected Clip + Stormbringer (Corrosive) for anti-Infested configs.

These for both Rivens and even some non-Riven mods alike.

Edited January 25, 2018 by Raspberri

[BemoGuinness]

20 hours ago, Aevire said:

I tried to put s in brackets and found out the hard way that that breaks the forum's formatting. Had to manually retype the post.

Gotcha

[Aevire]

21 hours ago, Raspberri said:

IPS damage bonus scaling off of base TOTAL damage and not base IPS damage would be really nice

PLEASE

[Aevire]

22 hours ago, Oru5732 said:

I think dispositions are OK as they are right now. Your example is not really something the riven system is aiming to do. It is in place to bring weapons like a rivened amphis in par with galatine primes without a riven and that should be possible although I haven't done any calculations regarding this specific example.

Did the calculations. A maxed Amphis riven with this build at 5 status and 4x combo (note that it has no Drifting Contact/Body Count to make that a possibility) outdamages the Galatine with this build at 4 status/2.5x combo. However, against enemies with any modicum of armor that you aren't stripping, the Galatine with the standard blood rush/weeping wounds build outclasses it at 1 status/1.5x combo. So yes, it is possible to bring it up to par with a Galatine damage wise assuming a completely ideal scenario and no armor. However, that is never going to actually happen outside the Simulacrum

 

22 hours ago, Oru5732 said:

It would be really hard to balnce damage per shot properly, as it would be a huge buff to high firerate weapons and insignificant for slow weapons. 

Given that +% crit is a huge buff to high crit weapons and insignificant for low crit weapons, and that crit does not have the downside high firerate does of hurting your ammo economy, I don't think +flat damage needs balancing unless +% crit does.

[K4RN4]

2 hours ago, Aevire said:

Did the calculations. A maxed Amphis riven with this build at 5 status and 4x combo (note that it has no Drifting Contact/Body Count to make that a possibility) outdamages the Galatine with this build at 4 status/2.5x combo. However, against enemies with any modicum of armor that you aren't stripping, the Galatine with the standard blood rush/weeping wounds build outclasses it at 1 status/1.5x combo. So yes, it is possible to bring it up to par with a Galatine damage wise assuming a completely ideal scenario and no armor. However, that is never going to actually happen outside the Simulacrum

Did some testing too with this Amphis build and this Galatine build and got a higher sustained dps with the Amphis build using a riven with 254.8% Melee Damage, 39.2% Critical Damage, 139.2% chance to be a Critical Hit on Slide attack and a harmless negativ (3x Berserker Buff, 2.5x Combo Multiplier for both).

 

 

[Aevire]

On 1/25/2018 at 4:24 PM, Oru5732 said:

Did some testing too with this Amphis build and this Galatine build and got a higher sustained dps with the Amphis build using a riven with 254.8% Melee Damage, 39.2% Critical Damage, 139.2% chance to be a Critical Hit on Slide attack and a harmless negativ (3x Berserker Buff, 2.5x Combo Multiplier for both).

 

 

Tried the Amphis with this build and a WyIiLCIiLFsicml2ZW4tZ2xhY2UiLCIxMzkuMiIsInZpdGVzc2VfZF9hdHRhcXVlIiwiODQuOSIsImRlZ2F0cyIsIjI1NC44IiwiIiwiIl1d riven versus the Galatine with this build. Condition Overload-wise, Galatine had 4 status (IPS+Tox), Amphis had 5 (IPS + viral + rad), and the Amphis just couldn't compare.

[Volinus7]

On 1/25/2018 at 5:39 AM, Aevire said:

most people don't care

They also stopped giving a fk about Warframe in general and embraced ignorance or just simply quitted... because in every non trivial topic in this forum there are posts that accept bullsh!tery and hypocrisy as Warframe's modus operandi. 

 

Edited January 28, 2018 by Volinus7

[shoopypit]

Rivens being unique in giving flat buffs is a neat proposition. At first I didn't think so, but thinking it over, it could actually give you alternate modding capabilities for weapons

[(XBOX)SneakyFortunis]

On 1/24/2018 at 5:22 PM, Oru5732 said:

It would be really hard to balnce damage per shot properly, as it would be a huge buff to high firerate weapons and insignificant for slow weapons. 

Flat status and crit stats would be great though as they can severly increase the build variety.

i might just be misunderstanding your statement but the +50 viral per shot would simply just add it into the base damage without actually adding a trigger for it and i would think it would be much easier than some things theyve added in for added damage such as heat sword/dagger ground slams adding fire damage...adding it could also allow for greater customisation if it set it as its own stat and adding toxic for example didnt increase it (but adding more viral or general damage did)...also i definitly agree that adding stats onto the base that are regulated by disposition is the only real way to fix the riven issue...after all there is no viable build for a gun with 2.5% crit and status and low damage unless you can increase some those stats drastically

[Almighty_Jado]

I've never thought about a flat damage stat. That might be something interesting.
I'm not sure if I missed something, but would you propose this for crit and status chance as well? (Like crit chance being increased by a flat 10% instead of being multiplied by 1.1 times)

[Eljureo]

Maybe just buff them really lame weapons.

In my eyes weapons with 2.5% crit chance and 2.5% status should not exist.

All weapons with 5point disposition are in need of a base buff. What good is Tiberon when it is based on a latron that is better in every way?

Why is lato stronger than braton following rework?

And the classic underdog Hind... All these weapons would be given a new lease on life with 15-20 crit and 25-15 status. Then let rivens do some magic.

There is absoluteley no need for some weapons to be lame.

[MickThejaguar]

On 1/24/2018 at 5:39 PM, Aevire said:

One of the big issues with the Riven system at this point is that most people don't care. We as a community have grown to accept this system, and [DE] has chosen to let it sit rather than draw attention to it because they have other projects and content that they are working on.

This is kinda the biggest problem with Warframe in general. Look at even the most glaring problems in warframe and you'll find a plethora of people who are willing to completely deny that Warframe has even the slightest flaw. People will come up with the most asinine and insulting reasons to not want something changed (Example: The subsection of players demanding that Chroma not be reworked because then they'll have to forma him all over again) and get mad at the slightest amount of backlash that anyone has towards DE's decisions, ignoring the fact that if DE isn't met with an overwhelming wave of criticism then they'll happily sit back and ignore something that's clearly not finished. Warframe's biggest flaw is that it's community grows complacent with the state of the game.

[Aevire]

On 1/29/2018 at 2:03 PM, Almighty_Jado said:

I've never thought about a flat damage stat. That might be something interesting.
I'm not sure if I missed something, but would you propose this for crit and status chance as well? (Like crit chance being increased by a flat 10% instead of being multiplied by 1.1 times)

Yeah, that was the suggestion I gave for changing crit.

[PrivateRiem]

Only if it makes "vintage" rivens untradeable

[Futurehero]

Riven mods already achieved their intended role. To make money for DE.

For a lot of players they look like a blatant cash grab because that's basically what it is.

Kuva re-rolling is quite literally gambling (of in game resources). That's also the reason why you can't buy Kuva for platinum.

So why does the community accept this? Well....

• Some people simply don't care and they want to min-max and have the most powerful gear at whatever the cost. 
• Some people see them as a great opportunity to make a ton of platinum for themselves, so DE's enrichment = their own enrichment.
• Some people genuinely like the system as is
• Some people see Kuva and the randomness of the rolls as a good enough incentive to replay content like syphons or POE Bounties.
• Some people love the rush of rolling mods till you get that perfect roll on your favorite gun . Hence, the gambling.

Is it kind of a shady move for DE? Sure is. But here's the thing:

At the end of  the day, it's not pay to win loot boxes, and for me, that's good enough for the moment. I would choose Riven mods any day, over let's say..... Prime Access only mods. Or limited edition, plat only weapons. 

 

EDIT: However, please stop mentioning the "Riven mods were meant to balance weaker weapons" . That was never a thing. It's never going to be a thing.

That whole story is basically DE's version of the "sense of pride and accomplishment" speech. Nothing more.  Weaker weapons are balanced by ...well... balancing. Not a random number generator.  

Edited February 2, 2018 by Futurehero