Why Chroma will never be tanky again: (UPDATED TO CONTAIN THE BEST BALANCING IDEAS IN THE FIRST POST)

[Mr.Snipersmiley]

I’ve gone 12 hours in a camping survival with a Vauban prime, me as old chroma with a viral tonkor (the old non self damaging one) nekros and a EV trin (4 cp) they all focused around me as the damage and we were killing level 2500 enemies. The entire time they weren’t buffing me and I wasn’t buffing them. The only reason we went 12 hours is solely because of chromas insane damage and the ability to tank damage enough to gain his buffs (I was taking bullets to the face because a combination of trinity and chroma) chroma can’t do this anymore because they comeplete removed his ability to tank anymore, I still want to be able to take level 2.5k enemies to the face because it’s fun, I don’t want to be melted by level 60 corrupted corpus crewmen.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Mr.Snipersmiley

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

Plains is far from a balance point for the game. Speaking of trinity, she's team oriented, AND stronger than Chroma, AND gives stronger defensive buffs. Her energy regen can arguably be better for damage too if you consider being able to cast your abilities more as a dps frame.

It's not a matter of who said what. It's simple logical deduction. I've played through every level of this game up to the fabled level cap. I've asked others who do the same, as well as my friends who don't really consider it worth their time, yet are brilliant at the game nonetheless. These are math guys and game guys who I enjoy learning from and speaking to. I have combed through the comments. This is the conclusion I've come up with and the reasons. You can disagree with my opinion, I have no hard feelings towards it. I welcomed all opinions, but not ignoring facts.

Also, considering the builds required to make these buffs useful, 18m is basically hugging/camping, unless you as a chroma would like the follow every single one of your team members like a sentinel, or have them follow you like a pet, then you should have no problem with this. I believe you can be a team oriented without giving out team buffs, by simply focusing on the strengths of your warframe and giving him a role and combining with other warframe's strengths and roles, you can have a complete team. A lone frost cannot complete a high level defense quickly since his damage isn't suffice. His strength is his defense and CC, thus that is his role. He leave majority of the damage to the damage frames and buffers like saryn, mesa, banshee, etc. That's their role, and thus being helpful to your team. Of course this is my opinion and you are free to disagree, but I'd like for you to know where I developed it from. I'm no forum slouch. 

O....kay, could do without the word wall.

A simple “I disagree with you, but okay, use Chroma however you please” would’ve sufficed, but whatever.

[Mr.Snipersmiley]

5 minutes ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

O....kay, could do without the word wall.

A simple “I disagree with you, but okay, use Chroma however you please” would’ve sufficed, but whatever.

He is Disagreeing with you and giving a reason why, this forum post is meant to address why chromas tankieness was removed. A simple “oh I see what you mean and yeah I agree with you, but here’s my point of view” instead of calling it a word wall, this post can accumulate constructive feedback so DE might see it and work off of it.

Edited February 14, 2018 by Mr.Snipersmiley

[DeadlyCreation]

vor einer Stunde schrieb (PS4)Crixus044:

As an aura? This would be a little much. Now that they made Vex Armor aura a team aura, they've sentenced it to death. It can no longer be strong because it would make the team too strong in the eyes of DE. Even if they make it total damage for weapons only, since it would be additive to BAne Mods, it would diminish the power of bane mods making them less valuable, also making Rhino Roar less valuable. Unless they change it from an aura back to chroma only, it will have to be a base damage buff, which means so will Scorn, unless they find a way to make it separate.

i allready mentioned my idea to fix his aura problem several times and i think it could help him out alot. buff vex armor again but make it split between teamates as soon as they enter his aoe. as a result chroma could do his job alone or eg for the whole team each member gets a fourth of the buff. so you can take chroma out for solo runs and still be able to buff the team, making it tankier. eg. the current buff could be his split/4 buff. so making the buff 4x as strong as it currently is.

 

another way to fix his tankiness problem could be just increasing his armor to about 800. would also have a good result. not even close to what it was before but atleast somewhat tanky. because atm he is the worst tank. and for a frame that is aquired so late and hard in this game definetly not enough. i mean it makes sense to have frames that are hardly accesable being abit stronger. eg mesa

[(PSN)Crixus044]

37 minutes ago, Mr.Snipersmiley said:

I’ve gone 12 hours in a camping survival with a Vauban prime, me as old chroma with a viral tonkor (the old non self damaging one) nekros and a EV trin (4 cp) they all focused around me as the damage and we were killing level 2500 enemies. The entire time they weren’t buffing me and I wasn’t buffing them. The only reason we went 12 hours is solely because of chromas insane damage and the ability to tank damage enough to gain his buffs (I was taking bullets to the face because a combination of trinity and chroma) chroma can’t do this anymore because they comeplete removed his ability to tank anymore, I still want to be able to take level 2.5k enemies to the face because it’s fun, I don’t want to be melted by level 100 corrupted corpus crewmen.

If you went 12 hours in any survival, the enemies would've been close to level cap. Level 2.5k happens around 5 hours.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor einer Stunde schrieb mac10smg-ToaOfGreen:

Who said so?

Trinity is a Team-oriented frame, and she can stand on her own. I’ve played multiple plains missions with Chroma, and made it out without a hitch.

Oh, and the aura is 18 meters. No hugging required.

18 m s a horrible range. especially if you consider the new landscapes like poe where each teammate flies around everywhere else. also for comparison: rhinos buff is stronger (since it works total) and the base range his higher than chromas. on top of that teammates do not even need to stay close to chroma since the only need on activation.

and if that is not enough rhino has some awesome CC to protect the whole team

[(PSN)Crixus044]

2 minutes ago, DeadlyCreation said:

i allready mentioned my idea to fix his aura problem several times and i think it could help him out alot. buff vex armor again but make it split between teamates as soon as they enter his aoe. as a result chroma could do his job alone or eg for the whole team each member gets a fourth of the buff. so you can take chroma out for solo runs and still be able to buff the team, making it tankier. eg. the current buff could be his split/4 buff. so making the buff 4x as strong as it currently is.

 

another way to fix his tankiness problem could be just increasing his armor to about 800. would also have a good result. not even close to what it was before but atleast somewhat tanky. because atm he is the worst tank. and for a frame that is aquired so late and hard in this game definetly not enough. i mean it makes sense to have frames that are hardly accesable being abit stronger. eg mesa

Raising base armor doesn't help much. It still messes with build, is more complicated, hurts the base armor balance of frames since Valkyr should for themes be the highest base armor (especially hurtful on duels), and isn't close enough to his old levels. I do really like the split effect thing though. I could work pretty well,though I say chroma should still ge tthe full effect.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 minute ago, DeadlyCreation said:

and if that is not enough rhino has some awesome CC to protect the whole team

And was always tankier than chroma

[DeadlyCreation]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Mr.Snipersmiley:

Thank god sombody brought this up, chroma was NEEEEEEEVER a team warframe (he can solo eidolons no need for team mates) I don’t know why DE thought it was a good idea to make him this way to put it simply, it doesn’t work he is meant to eat bullets and spit them out 20x harder.

i would love to see chroma as a team frame but without taking away his solo aspects. i just think DE implemented the whole team stuff wrong. there are million better ways to make him a tema tank than what DE has done

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Crixus044:

Raising base armor doesn't help much. It still messes with build, is more complicated, hurts the base armor balance of frames since Valkyr should for themes be the highest base armor (especially hurtful on duels), and isn't close enough to his old levels. I do really like the split effect thing though. I could work pretty well,though I say chroma should still ge tthe full effect.

yeah . if you are interested in more solution ideas i suggest reading my first post. if you think something is missing just let me know here. if DE starts reading this bananas id bet they first read the first post and when all ideas to solve the problem are mentioned in there we have the highest chances of receiving some.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

1 minute ago, DeadlyCreation said:

yeah . if you are interested in more solution ideas i suggest reading my first post. if you think something is missing just let me know here. if DE starts reading this bananas id bet they first read the first post and when all ideas to solve the problem are mentioned in there we have the highest chances of receiving some.

I did. Did you see the solution page I made? Which was to just give scorn Ice Elemental's stats and give Ice Elemental, Scorn's old stats, that way nothing is broken and works exacctly the same as before.

[UltraLYT]

Was Chroma not originally (fan concept) designed as the fearsome dragon that increasingly grew stronger when under constant attack?

Why is this design concept now completely destroyed to make Chroma a weaker form of Rhino?

Why did they neuter a great SOLO damage dealer into just another mediocre 'team player'?  For the noobs?

 

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Crixus044:

I did. Did you see the solution page I made? Which was to just give scorn Ice Elemental's stats and give Ice Elemental, Scorn's old stats, that way nothing is broken and works exacctly the same as before.

if you do that ice elemental ward would be crazy OP. the other elements would need a major buff. in my opinion DE could just split up scorn and fury in two seperate abilities. making scorn chromas ultimate (maybe call it "dragon skin") that gives him giant damage reduction. when you split vex armor up in two abilities you can easily make those stronger since they are seperate.  also just make fury a team shared buff. make chromas 1 so he can swithc between elements and make his new passive "taunts enemies within 30m rannge" - as a result he could really let his tank shine and protect his team

[Mr.Snipersmiley]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

If you went 12 hours in any survival, the enemies would've been close to level cap. Level 2.5k happens around 5 hours.

I was on Ophelia not MOT and this was a loooooong time ago

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Just now, DeadlyCreation said:

if you do that ice elemental ward would be crazy OP. the other elements would need a major buff. in my opinion DE could just split up scorn and fury in two seperate abilities. making scorn chromas ultimate (maybe call it "dragon skin") that gives him giant damage reduction. when you split vex armor up in two abilities you can easily make those stronger since they are seperate.  also just make fury a team shared buff. make chromas 1 so he can swithc between elements and make his new passive "taunts enemies within 30m rannge" - as a result he could really let his tank shine and protect his team

Why crazy OP? The overall affect will be exactly the same as it was before, and the other elementals have benefits of their own. Personally, I find Toxin elementals better for eidolon hunts because that reload and holster buff is super good for dps and the toxin proc is super strong against high level corpus. Heat Is a stronger EHp buff for teammates than Ice because most frames are more health based over armor based. Maybe Electric could use a buff, like a stronger CC effect. Banshee's 65 armor would get less help from ice than her 100 health would from heat. Same goes for Nidus, Inaros (Maybe equal for him), or Mesa. Or maybe make Elemental Ward innately give chroma only the total Armor buff while giving  himself and teammates the other buffs, so that each elemental was equally tanky, while some have stronger CC and others have stronger damage, like Ice has the damage reflect and give it a guaranteed cold proc so that it has a strong CC effect. Give electric a cc effect as well. Toxin and Heat have their own thing. Although this may make fire chroma the new tankiest, though I see no problem with this.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

1 hour ago, Mr.Snipersmiley said:

He is Disagreeing with you and giving a reason why, this forum post is meant to address why chromas tankieness was removed. A simple “oh I see what you mean and yeah I agree with you, but here’s my point of view” instead of calling it a word wall, this post can accumulate constructive feedback so DE might see it and work off of it.

Fine.

According to my calculations, using my build that has 5.07 extra armor multiplier and 735 armor, the previous iteration of Chroma, according to the armor rules, would have (735 x 5.07) = 3726.45 armor. Plugging it into the armor reduction equation, the DR to health Chroma would have is equal to (3726.45 / [3726.45 + 300]), or 3726.45 / 4026.45, which is equal to around 0.925, or 93% DR rounded up.

With the current iteration, the formula would work differently, with the equation being (385 + [350 x 5.07]) = 2159.5 armor. Again, plugging it into the armor reduction equation, the DR Chroma has is equal to (2159.5 / [2159.5 + 300]), or 2159.5 / 2459.5, which is equal to around 0.878, or 88% DR rounded up.

Right now, we can see that Vex armor is about 5% weaker than previous. Now, to take into account Ice armor.

Chroma's armor would jump up to 1417.5, regardless of version. With the first iteration, the Vex formula would now be (1417.5 x 5.07) = 7144.2. With the armor reduction, it will be 7144.2 / 7444.2 = 0.959, or 96% DR.

With the second iteration, the formula would be (1,067.5 + [350 x 5.07]) = 2842 exactly. With the armor reduction formula, it would be 2842 / 3142 = 0.904, or about 90% damage reduction.

Overall, Vex armor would see around 5% less effectiveness without ice armor, and around 6% less effective with ice armor.

So, if an enemy with a rocket launcher shot you with a 1000 damage rocket, the first iteration would take 70-40 damage while the new iteration would take 120 - 100 damage. With 520 HP (in my current build), it would take 8-13 rockets in the previous iteration, while it would take 5-6 rockets in the current iteration.

Now, to fury.

Let's take a 100 damage weapon that has serration and 2 90% elements on it, giving us 1272 damage. Here, we are going to compare Rhino's roar to Fury's damage bonus.

Starting with roar, with a 1.725x multiplier (with intensify and power drift), the resulting damage would be 1.725 x 1271 = 2194.2. With Fury, the damage would be 100 x [2.65 + 2.5375]  = 518.75 at base, and with elementals, it would be 518.75 + (518.75 x 1.9 x 2) = 2490 damage. So, overall, Fury provides a 12% better damage bonus than Roar.

So, overall, the defense capability of Chroma was nerfed (but still reasonably effective), and Fury still provides an overall better bonus than Roar.

Due to these reasons, I will say that Chroma is still effective and can hold his own, though he could benefit from having his Scorn nerf reverted, or at least buff the armor multiplier to something like x6.5 at base instead of x3.5 at base. I believe increasing the Fury multiplier to something like 200-250% at base instead of 175% at base could also be beneficial, as it would widen the gap between Fury and Roar's overall effectiveness.

Edited February 14, 2018 by mac10smg-ToaOfGreen

[(PSN)Crixus044]

10 minutes ago, Mr.Snipersmiley said:

I was on Ophelia not MOT and this was a loooooong time ago

Still, I find it hard to believe since mission level scaling hasn't changed since star chart 2.0, which chroma came out after. I don't doubt you did it, believe me, I've been there too. I understand what goes into a mission of that caliber, but I can't believe enemies are at level 2.5k at 12 hours, since I've hit level cap in a 9 hour defense, a 3 hour interception (RIP T4 Interception), and at 5 hours 30 minutes in an ODS back before the days of Shadow Debt, before the rhino rework, and the enemies were about level 5300. Proudest thing in game I've ever done besides solo Phoenix Intercept with a rhino prime back when I was still a noob.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb mac10smg-ToaOfGreen:

Fine.

According to my calculations, using my build that has 5.07 extra armor multiplier and 735 armor, the previous iteration of Chroma, according to the armor rules, would have (735 x 5.07) = 3726.45 armor. Plugging it into the armor reduction equation, the DR to health Chroma would have is equal to (3726.45 / [3726.45 + 300]), or 3726.45 / 4026.45, which is equal to around 0.925, or 93% DR rounded up.

With the current iteration, the formula would work differently, with the equation being (385 + [350 x 5.07]) = 2159.5 armor. Again, plugging it into the armor reduction equation, the DR Chroma has is equal to (2159.5 / [2159.5 + 300]), or 2159.5 / 2459.5, which is equal to around 0.878, or 88% DR rounded up.

Right now, we can see that Vex armor is about 5% weaker than previous. Now, to take into account Ice armor.

Chroma's armor would jump up to 1417.5, regardless of version. With the first iteration, the Vex formula would now be (1417.5 x 5.07) = 7144.2. With the armor reduction, it will be 7144.2 / 7444.2 = 0.959, or 96% DR.

With the second iteration, the formula would be (1,067.5 + [350 x 5.07]) = 2842 exactly. With the armor reduction formula, it would be 2842 / 3142 = 0.904, or about 90% damage reduction.

Overall, Vex armor would see around 5% less effectiveness without ice armor, and around 6% less effective with ice armor.

So, if an enemy with a rocket launcher shot you with a 1000 damage rocket, the first iteration would take 70-40 damage while the new iteration would take 120 - 100 damage. With 520 HP (in my current build), it would take 8-13 rockets in the previous iteration, while it would take 5-6 rockets in the current iteration.

Now, to fury.

Let's take a 100 damage weapon that has serration and 2 90% elements on it, giving us 1272 damage. Here, we are going to compare Rhino's roar to Fury's damage bonus.

Starting with roar, with a 1.725x multiplier (with intensify and power drift), the resulting damage would be 1.725 x 1271 = 2194.2. With Fury, the damage would be 100 x [2.65 + 2.5375]  = 518.75 at base, and with elementals, it would be 518.75 + (518.75 x 1.9 x 2) = 2490 damage. So, overall, Fury provides a 12% better damage bonus than Roar.

So, overall, the defense capability of Chroma was nerfed (but still reasonably effective), and Fury still provides an overall better bonus than Roar.

Due to these reasons, I will say that Chroma is still effective and can hold his own, though he could benefit from having his Scorn nerf reverted, or at least buff the armor multiplier to something like x6.5 at base instead of x3.5 at base. I believe increasing the Fury multiplier to something like 200-250% at base instead of 175% at base could also be beneficial, as it would widen the gap between Fury and Roar's overall effectiveness.

yeah got the exact same result. short to say vex armors DR is 50% less. aka u take twice the dmg. overall you would think that 90%dmg reduction is great but in the overall scemes taking twice the amount of dmg can make a huge difference.

[(PSN)Crixus044]

44 minutes ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

Fine.

According to my calculations, using my build that has 5.07 extra armor multiplier and 735 armor, the previous iteration of Chroma, according to the armor rules, would have (735 x 5.07) = 3726.45 armor. Plugging it into the armor reduction equation, the DR to health Chroma would have is equal to (3726.45 / [3726.45 + 300]), or 3726.45 / 4026.45, which is equal to around 0.925, or 93% DR rounded up.

With the current iteration, the formula would work differently, with the equation being (385 + [350 x 5.07]) = 2159.5 armor. Again, plugging it into the armor reduction equation, the DR Chroma has is equal to (2159.5 / [2159.5 + 300]), or 2159.5 / 2459.5, which is equal to around 0.878, or 88% DR rounded up.

Right now, we can see that Vex armor is about 5% weaker than previous. Now, to take into account Ice armor.

Chroma's armor would jump up to 1417.5, regardless of version. With the first iteration, the Vex formula would now be (1417.5 x 5.07) = 7144.2. With the armor reduction, it will be 7144.2 / 7444.2 = 0.959, or 96% DR.

With the second iteration, the formula would be (1,067.5 + [350 x 5.07]) = 2842 exactly. With the armor reduction formula, it would be 2842 / 3142 = 0.904, or about 90% damage reduction.

Overall, Vex armor would see around 5% less effectiveness without ice armor, and around 6% less effective with ice armor.

So, if an enemy with a rocket launcher shot you with a 1000 damage rocket, the first iteration would take 70-40 damage while the new iteration would take 120 - 100 damage. With 520 HP (in my current build), it would take 8-13 rockets in the previous iteration, while it would take 5-6 rockets in the current iteration.

Now, to fury.

Let's take a 100 damage weapon that has serration and 2 90% elements on it, giving us 1272 damage. Here, we are going to compare Rhino's roar to Fury's damage bonus.

Starting with roar, with a 1.725x multiplier (with intensify and power drift), the resulting damage would be 1.725 x 1271 = 2194.2. With Fury, the damage would be 100 x [2.65 + 2.5375]  = 518.75 at base, and with elementals, it would be 518.75 + (518.75 x 1.9 x 2) = 2490 damage. So, overall, Fury provides a 12% better damage bonus than Roar.

So, overall, the defense capability of Chroma was nerfed (but still reasonably effective), and Fury still provides an overall better bonus than Roar.

Due to these reasons, I will say that Chroma is still effective and can hold his own, though he could benefit from having his Scorn nerf reverted, or at least buff the armor multiplier to something like x6.5 at base instead of x3.5 at base. I believe increasing the Fury multiplier to something like 200-250% at base instead of 175% at base could also be beneficial, as it would widen the gap between Fury and Roar's overall effectiveness.

First off, these tests are not optimized and have inaccurate formulas. I urge you to read back in my previous comments and read Xzorn's.

Fir your armor calculations, you're purposely leaving out Elemental Ward, which taints your results.

Let's clear up your scenario first. The actual formula is Armor = Base x (1+Base Armor Mods+Base Armor Abilities), So for you, it would be 350*(1+1.1+5.07) = 2509.5

Previously, it would've been (350*(1+1.1))*5.07 = 3726.45

This difference in EHp is 6930.1 to 9932. It's a 30% loss in EHp, and that's without counting Elemental Ward, which you'd be incorrect to not consider

Now let's do this correctly and include an actual tank build with decent power strength of 200% far under optimized builds but over your 145% PS build, which is not really strong, and use Elemental Ward. In the olden days, you'd have (350*(1+1.1+1.5*2))*(3.5*2) = 12495. Now, you'll have 350*(1+1.5*2+3.5*2) = 3850.

The difference in DR is vastly different when this is considered. Let's go by EHp. Using Vitality alone, your EHp would be 31,561 before, but now, it's 10,237. This is a 3rd of our EHp and less than every single tank in game.

About Fury, the fact that it's a base damage buff means that not only is it less effective with other chroma's but with other weapons. Most weapons have serration or something of equal strength (+165% base) on their weapon. Others though have rivens or more popularly Heavy Caliber, which I bet 90% of people use on most their weapons. Hornet Strike has a +220% Base Damage buff and Shotguns have the very popularly used Blaze to add on +60% damage. Now let's go to the extremes and compare 299% Power Strength Chroma vs 299% Power Strength Rhino just to favor Chroma as much as possible since Roar doesn't scale well with strength.

299% PS Fury with Serration/Primed Pressure Point: <2.975x buff.
299% PS Fury with Serration and Heavy Caliber: <2.22x
299% PS Fury with Hornet Strike: >2.635x
299% PS Fury with Primed Point Blank and Blaze: 2.61x
299% PS Roar with anything: 2.495x.

So at first, Fury is a slightly better buff with anything except Serration and Heavy Caliber/Rivens. Let's talk about what it doesn't do though. IT doesn't buff abilities, it has a lower duration, requires you to remain with the chroma, and requires chroma to take damage, which with his reduced EHp is more dangerous than before (Unless you run self-damage, which has never been a valid argument for any warframe and was usually changed for all other frames, chroma may soon follow). Now here's where things get weird. You say chroma is good because he stacks and thus he can survive in a team. But here's the thing. let's add another 299% PS Fury in it's best situation ,which is with serration only.

299% PS Fury with Serration and another 299% PS Fury: <1.664x
299% PS Roar with Serration and Another 299% PS Fury: 2.495x

So there's the actual math. Yes chroma is better for damage (Barely) and not always, but it's far from a swing vote for the tankiness loss. 

Edited February 14, 2018 by (PS4)Crixus044

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 14 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Crixus044:

First off, these tests are not optimized and have inaccurate formulas. I urge you to read back in my previous comments and read Xzorn's.

Fir your armor calculations, you're purposely leaving out Elemental Ward, which taints your results.

Let's clear up your scenario first. The actual formula is Armor = Base x (1+Base Armor Mods+Base Armor Abilities), So for you, it would be 350*(1+1.1+5.07) = 2509.5

Previously, it would've been (350*(1+1.1))*5.07 = 3726.45

This difference in EHp is 6930.1 to 9932. It's a 30% loss in EHp, and that's without counting Elemental Ward, which you'd be incorrect to not consider

Now let's do this correctly and include an actual tank build with decent power strength of 200% far under optimized builds but over your 145% PS build, which is not really strong, and use Elemental Ward. In the olden days, you'd have (350*(1+1.1+1.5*2))*(3.5*2) = 12495. Now, you'll have 350*(1+1.5*2+3.5*2) = 3850.

The difference in DR is vastly different when this is considered. Let's go by EHp. Using Vitality alone, your EHp would be 31,561 before, but now, it's 10,237. This is a 3rd of our EHp and less than every single tank in game.

About Fury, the fact that it's a base damage buff means that not only is it less effective with other chroma's but with other weapons. Most weapons have serration or something of equal strength (+165% base) on their weapon. Others though have rivens or more popularly Heavy Caliber, which I bet 90% of people use on most their weapons. Hornet Strike has a +220% Base Damage buff and Shotguns have the very popularly used Blaze to add on +60% damage. Now let's go to the extremes and compare 299% Power Strength Chroma vs 299% Power Strength Rhino just to favor Chroma as much as possible since Roar doesn't scale well with strength.

299% PS Fury with Serration/Primed Pressure Point: <2.975x buff.
299% PS Fury with Serration and Heavy Caliber: <2.22x
299% PS Fury with Hornet Strike: >2.635x
299% PS Fury with Primed Point Blank and Blaze: 2.61x
299% PS Roar with anything: 2.495x.

So at first, Fury is a slightly better buff with anything except Serration and Heavy Caliber/Rivens. Let's talk about what it doesn't do though. IT doesn't buff abilities, it has a lower duration, requires you to remain with the chroma, and requires chroma to take damage, which with his reduced EHp is more dangerous than before (Unless you run self-damage, which has never been a valid argument for any warframe and was usually changed for all other frames, chroma may soon follow). Now here's where things get weird. You say chroma is good because he stacks and thus he can survive in a team. But here's the thing. let's add another 299% PS Fury in it's best situation ,which is with serration only.

299% PS Fury with Serration and another 299% PS Fury: <1.664x
299% PS Roar with Serration and Another 299% PS Fury: 2.495x

So there's the actual math. Yes chroma is better for damage (Barely) and not always, but it's far from a swing vote for the tankiness loss. 

me personally i dont even care so much about the vex armors current state. i mean his tankiness is abismal and dmg buff only okay but yet it could be a decent ability if chroma would have other abilities to make his kit good. i am just hoping DE finally does somethign with his ultimate. for example just let it be called "dragon skin" and let it reduce all incoming dmg. so running this and vex armor would make him again more tanky + his current vex armor aura would remain.

for certain there are way more solutions and i wont go over them again since i posted the most relevant in my first post - which, if DE reads this stuff, is awy more likely to be read than this. so if anyone of you has some good idea to be added just write it down here and ill add it so it gets max exposure.

[HUNDarkTemplar]

Chromas fix rly made him bad. You have a better frame for everything and like most frames 2 of his fckin skills are useless. 

His first ability needs to become useful. 
I think every element should get a good effect.
Ice - Should start freezing enemies and not just this bullS#&amp;&#036; 50%. Make the slow scale with time and totally freeze the enemies after some seconds
Fire - Dealing damage to enemies with fire spectral scream should heal you.
Toxin - A dot like now, toxin damage, but max hp %. Not to much ofc to not make It op againts very high levels. But give it a good damage that You can stack and make enemies decay away like how slash bleeding does.
Electric - Fill your shield or make electric cc, weaker then cold but faster.

His 2. ability isnt useless, but I think It could be changed to. 
Make It like a mini Rhino Iron skin, much weaker, but not useless and gain effects from the element. I think about a shield like Quen sign in Witcher. 
Ice - Slows enemies that hit you and deals "thorn" damage similar like now, but when this armor is destroyed, It freeze nearby weaker/small enemies and slows heavies.
Fire - While Your 2. is being hit you are being healed ( This armor could maybe not take all the damage ) or store health and when the shield is destroyed It restores health to you and allies and the enemies get on fire. 
Toxin - Give more reload speed the lower the health of your ability and when It gets destroyed make % hp toxin damage on enemies.
Electric - Instead of health give shield and/or maybe movement speed/melee speed while Its on you or something like that 

His 3. should need the old armor calculation back or give Chroma some base armor and maybe health.

His 4. Could maybe coloured differently and could be a 2 formed, like how equinox has. Put down and spawn with the responding elemental shield of 2. and have the 3. ability to buff nearby friendlies. Some ppl even wrote to put it on other warframes etc... Make It gives buff and not just a useless sentry that eats RIDICOLOUS energy, has low damage, unrelying cc etc... 

The problem with Chroma is not is not just that He is weak, which He is, but He is also uninteresting, boring. Before, You could have fun ripping enemies with the op buffs. But now what does He have? 2 useless abilities and 2 buffs That are not strong enough to make him a good frame, WHILE, all He does is press the 2 buttons and He can just use his weapons the whole game. He just makes his stats a little bit better then works like a frame without any abilities. But now his buffs are not even strong enough to make him good, because atleast before the "fix" even, If You didnt have an interesting ability You could rly be a very strong dragon who had just much better damage and very good survivability compared to other frames, but He sacrificed being an "active" interesting ability user and became dull.

I know some people dont like Harrow and his headshot mechanics, but IMO Harrow has one  of the best designed ability kit. All his skills are needed and useful and They synergize good with each other. Playing him on higher levels is not like afking, but actively being on alert to use the right abilities at the right time, but He is not overcomplicated or difficult. He is just not a walk and click 1 ability and everything dies or just shoot with your weapon and dont do anything different like Chroma. Ofc not every frame needs to have all interesting synergizing abilities, some people and everyone sometimes like simple and not all abilities need to be a must have like Harrows, but many warframes especially Chroma is just totally dull boring.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

First off, these tests are not optimized and have inaccurate formulas. I urge you to read back in my previous comments and read Xzorn's.

Fir your armor calculations, you're purposely leaving out Elemental Ward, which taints your results.

"Now, to take into account Ice armor.

Chroma's armor would jump up to 1417.5, regardless of version. With the first iteration, the Vex formula would now be (1417.5 x 5.07) = 7144.2. With the armor reduction, it will be 7144.2 / 7444.2 = 0.959, or 96% DR.

With the second iteration, the formula would be (1,067.5 + [350 x 5.07]) = 2842 exactly. With the armor reduction formula, it would be 2842 / 3142 = 0.904, or about 90% damage reduction."

Plz read.

Let's clear up your scenario first. The actual formula is Armor = Base x (1+Base Armor Mods+Base Armor Abilities), So for you, it would be 350*(1+1.1+5.07) = 2509.5

Previously, it would've been (350*(1+1.1))*5.07 = 3726.45

...okay, I put that, have no Idea why you bring it up again.

Now let's do this correctly and include an actual tank build with decent power strength of 200% far under optimized builds but over your 145% PS build

My point wasn't to show an optimized build, my point was to show the difference between the previous iteration of Scorn and the new one. I'm saying that he's still effective, but could benefit from change.

The difference in DR is vastly different when this is considered. Let's go by EHp. Using Vitality alone, your EHp would be 31,561 before, but now, it's 10,237. This is a 3rd of our EHp and less than every single tank in game.

Well, the difference between 13 hits from a 1k damage rocket and 6 hits from the same rocket is about 7k EHP, so obviously with higher power strength the gap would widen.

And no word on your fury calcs, I litteraly said he was only marginally better than roar (at 12% with my scenario, not very impressive).

You kinda missed some points. I didn't even say that the team aspect was effective, I just said the range wasn't that bad and that he was more team oriented.

Oh, and did you miss the part where I suggested a buff to Vex Armor?

Edited February 15, 2018 by mac10smg-ToaOfGreen

[Agente_GentlePhoenix]

Im up for this bring back the #OGChroma, wukong will approve this.

[DeadlyCreation]

vor 10 Stunden schrieb mac10smg-ToaOfGreen:

You kinda missed some points. I didn't even say that the team aspect was effective, I just said the range wasn't that bad and that he was more team oriented.

Oh, and did you miss the part where I suggested a buff to Vex Armor?

another thing that i dont really get about chromas scorn nerf is that for eidolon hunts, most chroma players tended to use the decaying dragon key to lower the shield - to lower the scorn buff, to gain more dmg buff faster. so having the old scorn buff would have actually been a nerf for chroma at fighting against the eidolons and since DE wants chroma to be nerfed against those why didnt they just leave it in. lol

[Dragazer]

16 hours ago, (PS4)Crixus044 said:

First off, these tests are not optimized and have inaccurate formulas. I urge you to read back in my previous comments and read Xzorn's.

Fir your armor calculations, you're purposely leaving out Elemental Ward, which taints your results.

Let's clear up your scenario first. The actual formula is Armor = Base x (1+Base Armor Mods+Base Armor Abilities), So for you, it would be 350*(1+1.1+5.07) = 2509.5

Previously, it would've been (350*(1+1.1))*5.07 = 3726.45

This difference in EHp is 6930.1 to 9932. It's a 30% loss in EHp, and that's without counting Elemental Ward, which you'd be incorrect to not consider

Now let's do this correctly and include an actual tank build with decent power strength of 200% far under optimized builds but over your 145% PS build, which is not really strong, and use Elemental Ward. In the olden days, you'd have (350*(1+1.1+1.5*2))*(3.5*2) = 12495. Now, you'll have 350*(1+1.5*2+3.5*2) = 3850.

The difference in DR is vastly different when this is considered. Let's go by EHp. Using Vitality alone, your EHp would be 31,561 before, but now, it's 10,237. This is a 3rd of our EHp and less than every single tank in game.

About Fury, the fact that it's a base damage buff means that not only is it less effective with other chroma's but with other weapons. Most weapons have serration or something of equal strength (+165% base) on their weapon. Others though have rivens or more popularly Heavy Caliber, which I bet 90% of people use on most their weapons. Hornet Strike has a +220% Base Damage buff and Shotguns have the very popularly used Blaze to add on +60% damage. Now let's go to the extremes and compare 299% Power Strength Chroma vs 299% Power Strength Rhino just to favor Chroma as much as possible since Roar doesn't scale well with strength.

299% PS Fury with Serration/Primed Pressure Point: <2.975x buff.
299% PS Fury with Serration and Heavy Caliber: <2.22x
299% PS Fury with Hornet Strike: >2.635x
299% PS Fury with Primed Point Blank and Blaze: 2.61x
299% PS Roar with anything: 2.495x.

So at first, Fury is a slightly better buff with anything except Serration and Heavy Caliber/Rivens. Let's talk about what it doesn't do though. IT doesn't buff abilities, it has a lower duration, requires you to remain with the chroma, and requires chroma to take damage, which with his reduced EHp is more dangerous than before (Unless you run self-damage, which has never been a valid argument for any warframe and was usually changed for all other frames, chroma may soon follow). Now here's where things get weird. You say chroma is good because he stacks and thus he can survive in a team. But here's the thing. let's add another 299% PS Fury in it's best situation ,which is with serration only.

299% PS Fury with Serration and another 299% PS Fury: <1.664x
299% PS Roar with Serration and Another 299% PS Fury: 2.495x

So there's the actual math. Yes chroma is better for damage (Barely) and not always, but it's far from a swing vote for the tankiness loss. 

This needs to be spread around more so DE can see where they seriously dropped the ball with Chroma. Running serration heavy cal together is extremely common, and the fact that vex armor does less damage with those mods, with a much higher cost, with such clunky mechanics shows us there is a serious issue here.

To add further insult to injury, DE even had the audacity to still call Vex Armor one of "strongest damage boosting abilties in the game".